Did the Down Town Get Legislated Out Of Business

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 03:47 AM

When you are talking about a major development at the intersection of highway 97 and 16 west you are essentially saying that the down town no longer exists and hotels such as the Ramada are doomed to failure.

The latest round of plans would see the golf course displaced by more commerce, more business and all taking place in an area the city not too long ago said would never be on the table for development.

So where does it leave those people such as the Ramada who were told the down town would be rejuvenated and they would be a corner stone? Will the City compensate those people who bought business in the down town under that assurance? For example a piece of land on George that sold for $400,000 dollars in 1989, now is being offered up at $68,000 dollars with no takers.

Was the demise of the City core legislated?

We do know this with certainty, it has been very easy to get land re zoned on Highway 16 West over the past decade and the plan before Council suggests it will in the future.

The down town core has been legislated into a second hand neighborhood and is there any wonder why commerce does not want to locate there.

Legislation on the part of the City, whether deliberate or not, clearly shows the City gave up on the down town core east of Brunswick long ago.

Now look one mile further over to River Rd. where the berm that the city has now put in place will effectively rule out any business from operating on the north side of River Rd.

Will the need to pay compensation for that land, that could run as high as $50 million dollars or with a berm that prevents the operation of a business or a home owner to exist, will that kind of expenditure be necessary? Or will the City be able to sit back and wait until the price of the land that suddenly has no value reaches a price just as it did along George St where it becomes easy for the City to pick up at a bargain price and at who’s expense?

You be the judge, in my world, the writing is on the berm on River Rd

I’m Meisner and that’s one man’s opinion.

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Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 03:47 AM in Views by Ben Meisner

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Comments

Posted by: Eagleone on April 23 2008 5:58 AM

I think in regards to the River Road scenario your probably correct Ben, and the city will probably pay big in law suits before its all said and done, but in the case of the downtown that was just capital going where it was going or it was not going to be invested at all.

Not many investors other than government want to invest in a George Street property where you can't have a basement without it flooding from the flood plain. That is what hinders and limits the ability for the downtown to grow. Any insistence on legislating growth to one area of the city that has the air pollution, water table, crime, and not to mention its not central to access problems... only takes away from the potential for the rest of PG to grow unhindered by the downtowns own problems.

Legislation did nothing to make the water table where it is. Maybe awareness is a problem, and maybe legislation will become a problem if the 200-year flood plain changes... insurance wise who knows. Legislation is also not the primary source of the localized air pollution, that would have to be more to do with proximity IMO.

Posted by: owl on April 23 2008 6:57 AM

"where you can't have a basement without it flooding from the flood plain.

It is quite possible to build a building with a basement that is flood proof. There are even closures for openings such as doors and windows which can be put in place in case of floods getting higher than street level.

Essentially, the basement gets built like a reverse swimming pool, with a heavy PVC liner (some even come as rigid panels that are "welded" together) on the exterior going right underneath the building foundation system. The slab has to be thicker and reinforced as a unit with the walls so that it is essentially like a barge.

The whole thing has to be calculated so that it does not float, or elese anchors have to be inserted into the ground to counteract the uplifting forces.

The plumbing system obviously needs to have check valves to prevent backflows.

In the final analysis, one has to see whether the value of the space in a basement is worth the additional cost of a truly water and flood proof subsurface structure. But, it is quite possible to do and has been done for some major buildings throughout the world.

We just have to realize we are in a flood plain an start learning how to build in one rather than running around muttering: "oh my, oh my, oh my."

Posted by: diplomat on April 23 2008 7:10 AM

Reverse swimming pools? What has happened to the idea that the river must be dredged properly to prevent floods in the first place?

Oh, don't tell me...first come endless studies and perhaps another flood. More wringing of hands and costly little warm water pipes...an Amphibex on stand-by...fingerpointing and perhaps a delegation to China to ask them how they found out that water always flows downhill.

It's not rocket science. Get busy on dredging the Nechako river and the area of confluence with the Fraser!

Posted by: Harbinger on April 23 2008 7:37 AM

Put all the buildings downtown on stilts. Kinda like the library. If it does flood , keep the water and turn the downtown into Venice north. What a tourist draw! (When the price of gas goes down, that is)

Posted by: giterdun on April 23 2008 7:58 AM

One word--DREDGE. It is the right thing to do, it will solve the problem and it is realitivly cheap. Probably could have done it for the same price as the cost of all these studies. Anyone that does not support dredging is an idiot.

Posted by: onemansthoughts on April 23 2008 7:59 AM

It goes like this. Businesses pretty much had to leave the downtown core. It became the meeting place for the homeless, drug
dealings, crime, prostitution, old and dirty . and high taxes. You can thank the honorable Murry Krause for setting this up, with no regard for businesse.
The sad part is, businesses went out of town to set up, and did a very nice job.
Hence it looks good on city council, when in fact they did absolutely nothing.
They need to be replaced.

Posted by: michael on April 23 2008 8:17 AM

Given the enterprising nature of local contractors I am quite sure the city could trade gravel dredged from the river for in-place rip-rap. The city,the province,the contractor and the homeowners who face the fear of flooding would all be winners. Contrary to what Mayor Kinsley thinks the people handling this type of project for the taxpayers are doing a terrible job! Instead of another study ask for proposals .

Posted by: Harbinger on April 23 2008 8:35 AM

How about a study for a proposal to move City Hall out on Highway 16 West somewhere? Seems to me that is where the action is. One more thing. We need more liquor stores. Seems we don't have enough what with that Rafters pub closing and all.

Posted by: realitycheck on April 23 2008 8:48 AM

The problems faced by our downtown are similar to those faced by many other cities across Canada and the US and to blame it's demise solely on City Council or legislation is a farce.
The concept of "downtown" died with the rise of big box stores and shopping malls which require big plots of stand alone land. Citizens demand these services and to imply that we could have legislated them to build downtown is a joke (they simply would not have built).
One needs to look no further than Kelowna..their "old" downtown is D-E-A-D and has very similar issues to ours. What is a great example is how they moved beyond this and developed a new "downtown" along Water Street into a vibrant new hub with Theatres, galleries, the Grand and casino, Arena, condos, waterfront bowl, etc...
The old quaint concept of a downtown is dead....quit beating the dead horse and move on...it's time for a new plan that looks ahead and (shockingly) this will likely mean the current downtown in PG is not part of the plan.

Posted by: Harbinger on April 23 2008 9:01 AM

So now we have a "vibrant new hub" out on Highway 16 West. I can live with that.

Posted by: Harbinger on April 23 2008 9:02 AM

Not hub. I shoulda said "vibrant new spoke".

Posted by: govsux on April 23 2008 9:09 AM

Now if somebody would just build a nice restaurant in college heights, with a patio, so we can go as a family. The only decent place to eat is CHP and they don't permit kids.

Posted by: Harbinger on April 23 2008 9:13 AM

CHP, eh? Get the Human Rights Commission on their case and claim age discrimination. Ya might get a few bucks outa them and then you can go further afield fer yer eats.

Posted by: Jayda on April 23 2008 9:35 AM

I guess I'm in the minority. I miss our down town dearly. I do not like these big box stores, you have to waste a lot of gas getting to them. For those of us living south of the city it's not very convenient going west. I was in Penticton recently and they have theirs fixed up very nicely, there were a lot of people shopping during the day and many folks down there at night just leaving restaurants. They also had the big box stores further out. If I have a choice I will go down town first.

Posted by: diplomat on April 23 2008 9:50 AM

"...and to blame it's demise solely on City Council or legislation is a farce."

Well, they are not the only ones to blame, that's true! What about the past and present City Managers, a position which pays big bucks?

The councilors and the mayor always ran for election with promises and assurances that if elected they would indeed DO something about the downtown malaise.

How come Kelowna did something about it and we simply can't or won't?

If it is a question of a concept having died that one could reasonably assume that the old concept will be replaced with a newer one, more in sync with the times.

Posted by: realitycheck on April 23 2008 11:26 AM

Some new thinking is definietly required, when (or if) that will happen is the big question.
My point is simply that we need to stop thinking about how to fix what's there and "the way it used to be" and start thinking about ways to create something special in the new reality a la Kelowna.

Posted by: Andyfreeze on April 23 2008 11:43 AM

diplomat and realitycheck...you are both right on the money!!
Which brings me back to my prefered idea of starting at Victoria with a line of D 9's and not stopping until they get to the river!
:-)

Posted by: tinyapplecork on April 23 2008 12:37 PM

I don't believe the city has given up on the downtown core. I believe a lot more could be done, but no one seems to agree on what that is precisely. Part of the problem in my opinion, is there needs to be more cooperation between City Hall and business. City hall seems to not be handling the situation very well at all.

Posted by: shockedjockey on April 23 2008 12:44 PM

I've lived in cities across Canada and in a city of 22 million (Cairo) and I've never felt as threatened as I do in downtown Prince George. Thugs have tried to mug me on a number of occasions, and in one case only my can of bear spray saved my ass.

I think the solution is relatively easy. Some political will from city hall and adherence to The Broken Window Theory.

Read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows

Anyway, it'd be a start.

Posted by: MrPG on April 23 2008 1:30 PM

I haven't been downtown in a long time for good reason. It's a dump. The only way to revitalize it is with a bulldozer and some dynamite.

Posted by: NMG on April 23 2008 7:31 PM

Why is downtown a mess? Hmmm . . .

- Air quality SUCKS and it stinks 30% of the time
- It's dirty and full of garbage
- There are vagrants and drunks on most every corner
- There seems to be as many pawnshops, homeless shelters, social agencies and not for profit establishments as retail businesses
- It's unattractive
- There's nothing to draw people after hours unless you want to risk your physical well being lurking at the bars
- It's like it was put together without a plan (throw a pub here, a union shop there and a bank in the middle)
- Air quality SUCKS and it stinks 30% of the time

Could it be better? Of course! Has our current City Council demonstrated that they have the ability or desire to make it happen? Hmm, let me think about that for a second. Maybe I'll have an answer by the time the next "Downtown Revitalization" study is complete.

Posted by: fingerscrossed on April 23 2008 8:07 PM

In James Howard Kunstler's view, public spaces should be inspired centers of civic life -- the physical manifestation of the common good. Instead, he argues, what we have in America is a nation of places not worth caring about. Reengineering our cities will involve more radical change than we are prepared for, he believes, but our hand will be forced by earth crises stemming from our overconsuming lifestyle. "Life in the mid-21st century," Kunstler says, "is going to be about living locally." Passionate, profane and funny, this talk will make you think about the place where you live.

Want more information? Check out this 20 minute video from the last TED conference (started by google founders). I think it relates perfectly to Prince George.......

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/121

Posted by: owl on April 24 2008 12:32 AM

"One word--DREDGE. It is the right thing to do, it will solve the problem and it is realitivly cheap."

Dredging will decrease the occurrance, it will not solve the problem all the time. If ice breaks up at the wrong time of year, such as it did this past winter, and the chunks are large enough, they will narrow the river flow just as plaque narrows an artery and get a few large enough pieces in there that slide once above the other and you will soon have a blocked channel. With supercooled water one gets th addition of frazzle ice and blockage will be even faster.

Posted by: diplomat on April 24 2008 3:30 PM

It's no use to view the whole issue with too much pessimism, in my opinion! Let's do an extensive dredging job, first of all.

After that we will rely on the heavy duty Amphibex to keep a clear channel (the Amphibex that the City said we should purchase and have on stand-by!) which will soon be delivered to Prince George so personnel will be fully trained when they are required to operate it!

You see, when pessimists said: *out of sight - out of mind* they were wrong again!

Optimist.