Just How Much Is Air Worth Above An Underground Parking Lot
Tuesday, December 6, 2011 @ 3:45 AM
The space that the new BC seniors housing will cover above the City Parking lot will cost the taxpayers $61.22 cents a Sq Ft. or the equivalent of paying $336,710.00 for an average sized residential lot in the city.
Under the freedom of information request, Opinion250 received only the Municipal equity in the total budget, the other costs are protected by section 17 (1) (f)
It reads: the head of a public body may refuse to disclose to an applicant (opinion250) the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to harm the financial or economic interests of a public body or the government of British Columbia or the ability of that government to manage the economy including the following information.
Section 1-f – Information the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to harm the negotiating position of a public body or the government of British Columbia.
One would reasonably think that spending $ 6,239,938.00 on the purchase of air and the subsequent construction of 36 – 620 sq ft apartments would be in the interest of the general taxpayer, given that it is all of their money. The City of Prince George- $910,000.00, the Province Of BC – $2,673.000, and the Federal Government $2,673.000.
That works out to every man, woman and child in Prince George contributing $81.03 cents to build the project or $324.12 cents for a family of four.
The gross cost per unit- $173,312.00. with an average monthly rental rate of $420.00 dollars.
In March 2010 an appraisal estimated the value of the project at $5,871.837, the difference of $368.101.00 is not explained.
In the executive summary it says that the project is seen a key to down town redevelopment being the first apartment building built in the down town in 50 years. The area to the west of Vancouver is not, in the minds of the writer "in the ‘downtown”. It raises the question of what is?
Finally the summary agrees that before releasing any communication the approval of the City of Prince George and BC Housing must be obtained.
Tomorrow; A Vancouver legal firm is the big winner in the setting up of the new housing and the purchase of the air earning $80,000.00 for their work.
I’m Meisner and that’s one man’s Opinion.
Comments
“That works out to every man, woman and child in Prince George contributing $81.03 cents to build the project or $324.12 cents for a family of four.”
That is true if the project were funded fully through municipal taxes.
But it is not.
Using 2011 population estimates from StatsCan and StatsBC, here is how it appears to be funded by every man woman and child in the city.
$910,000 / 75,568 = $12.04
$2,673,000.00 / 4,554,085 = $0.59
$2,673,000.00 /34,278,400 = $0.08
Add the last figures in each row = $12.71
That is how much PG citizens are each contributing.
Using the same PG population figures, the total value the City has received is
$6,256,000.00 /75,568 = $82.79
The value the City has received from the rest of the people in the province and in Canada is:
$82.79 – $12.71 = $70.08
That is a 550% ROI
Of course, we have to remember that we invest on projects outside of PG to help people across the province and the country.
This is a good example of why we have to make sure that we get as many of such “partnered” projects as possible to benefit our community and our pockets.
BTW, I would like to see what the City is required to contributing to this project in addition to paying for the air rights and what the city will receive for “rent”.
In other words, what is the net annual return over the first 20 years or so of the 60 year agreement.
Also, it seems that this is a new business venture of the City. Will a new “City corporation” be set up for this?
Gus, I think your math may be right, but your assumptions are weak.
The Province and the Federal government make some efforts to dole the money out evenly across all ridings. Provincial and Federal money spent on a senior’s complex is less money that they can give us for other pet projects.
When you figure that in, Ben’s analysis is a lot closer to the truth than yours. This project has cost the Prince George tax payer a lot of money. We didn’t get to vote on it or even debate the need for this project, it was kept hush hush and there wasn’t even a proper tender. We way overpaid and the money was spent on false pretenses. This building site was not a blight.
What it comes down to is that someone at City Hall wanted to give the money–a lot of money–to Commonwealth.
Your logic Gus makes me wonder if you pay taxes. Give your head a shake, the money that the feds and the province get comes in part right out of the taxes that we pay. If you live in this area Gus you also might like to know that we contribute a more than average share to the province.
Do you think for a moment other areas donât receive the money they have contributed by the way of taxes, or do you think they sit back and say send it along to Prince George because they need it more than we do.
Or is this all an exercise so that you can make a case for the PAC which you are always promoting as the savour of Prince George, so you can snag some province and fed money under the idea that it really wasnât ours to begin with.
Gus:”This is a good example of why we have to make sure that we get as many of such “partnered” projects as possible to benefit our community and our pockets.”
That’s why we shouldn’t object when the province twins bridges and builds an underpass or a Wood Design and Innovation Centre in Prince George! A number of other B.C. cities are only too eager to grab the money if we turn it down!
Ben, thanks for trying to pry the doors open a bit so that we can get at least a small glimpse of what happens behind closed doors.
Donât be too hard on Gus, Bill, he thinks that provincial and federal taxes come from the tooth ferry
Gus knows that it comes from us, the taxpayers (corporations either don’t pay taxes or they don’t pay their fair share of the taxes, remember) and not from the tooth fairy or some kind of ferry!
:-)
For this project, my costing is as it is. Read it again ……
Of course I know that we pay money to the feds and the province as well as to the city. All my calculation shows is what proportion comes from which tax pocket.
In this case, on a per person basis, and based on 2011 figures for population of the 3 jurisdictions, it is
1. $12.04 from the money we pay into the City,
2. $0.59 from the money we pay into the province, and
3. $0.08 from the money we pay into federal coffers.
It is simple mathematics.
1. there are only 75,568 of us to count in the case of our contribution to the City’s portion,
2. there are 4,554,085 we can count when looking at the province’s portion, and
3. there are 34,278,400 we can count when looking at the province’s portion.
I am unsure what part of that is not understandable. I am unsure what is not understandable about the notion that when one person buys a box of timmies the contribution per timmy is higher than when 10 people contribute to the purchase of the same box of timmies.
That concept, of course, becomes more interesting when the box and all the timmies inside still belong to the purchaser and can all be enjoyed by him/her.
And yes, in order to belong to that timmies buying group, you will sometimes have to contribute when the others in the group want to buy some timmies. If the other 9 purchase on average more timmies than you do, guess what? You are being the generous one on pupose due to your giving nature, or you are being had.
I know, its a tough crowd we are dealing with here, Prince George…. Where does one start? LOL
Gus, stop boring us with all your useles information. Meisner gave us the the story and we can read. Your ego is bigger then your shoes.
Cheers
gus
For your argument to hold any water you would have to account for the portion of PG tax dollars both federal and provincial that go to projects NOT in Prince George–simple mathematics :-p
The **shell game** of stating that if Provincial/Federal money is not spent in our area, it will be spent in some other area of the Country doesnt stand up under scrutiny. The fact of the matter is every Municipality in Canada uses the same argument.
So if they all spend the money to keep other areas from getting it, then what is the end result. Guess what? The end result is that these projects, regardless of where they are built, are built with tax dollars from Canadian taxpayers. To try to break the Country up into little tax feifdoms is a **flawed** process.
Much like stating that we pay more money to the Government than people in the Vancouver area, because of the stumpage on trees, and royalties on mining. This would be true if we owned these resources, but the fact of the matter is they are owned by all British Columbians, and the argument has no merit.
The money we get from the Federal and Provicial Governments is our tax dollar being returned for various and sundry projects. It is (OUR) money. The argument used to access this money, ie; if we dont get it, someone else will, is usually put forward by people who wish to promote their favourite projects, or hoodwink people into supporting a project. Usually vested interest groups.
Perhaps Gus should use his argument to show how 800 vested interest people in Prince George along with some real estate, and developers, can promote a project that at best will be utilized by one or two percent of the total population of the City. In this case the people who actually use the facility would be the **timmies** who are getting a free ride, and the people who pay for the facility but do not use it would get the donut hole, as opposed to a donut.
Have a nice day.
“For your argument to hold any water you would have to account for the portion of PG tax dollars both federal and provincial that go to projects NOT in Prince George–“
Says who?
I am looking at this project and this project only.
Wanna look at ALL the projects built in BC using either one or both of federal and provincial money and calculate the protion that the 75,000 or so who live in the PG city limits contribute to that?
Be my guest. It is virtually impossible from the point of view of ANY of the posters on here including myslef. That is a study which would take a bit of money to fund., I am hardly going to do that for nothing. How about a UNBC student for a fourth year project or a masters thesis. Compare 5 communities in BC to see which one gets shafted, so to speak.
That, of course, is a hypothesis. It may actually be the other way around. The study that was done some 5 or so years ago which too many people hold onto was very suspect from the time it was released.
Where is it, BTW?
The same as that study of the impact of the UNBC on the eocnomics of this community.
Where is that BTW?
Oh, they all are similar to the study about PG being the best place to invest in …. a great little bit of promotion by IPG, I must give them that, but it is smoke and mirrors as well.
So any numbers from pricing this project out in isolation are invalid…..I’m not the one who said it was simple mathematics.
Only problem with building it downtown is that some days the pulpmill smell is SO bad and that is not healthy for seniors. They will need a mask or something to breath!
How can you, move Seniors in that Stinky Place, no better Places ?
It is an opinion I obviously do not share lonesome sparrow. No problem with me. I presented my case. Ben presented his. You have yet to present yours.
Aslo, everyone has overlooked the business questions I have asked. We have only seen the capital investment.
That part is peanuts compared to the ongoing operating revenue and expenses over the full 60 years of the business case.
The way I understand it, BCHousing has offloaded the risk to the City and the Elizabeth Fry Society.
If I understand it correctly, we have just entered a new era of owning, financing, maintaining subsidized housing. Maybe we have been doing that already, but I do not believe so.
The capital money we invested in partially financing this venture is peanuts to the money we can either make or lose in operating/maintaining the building.
For instance, do we get grant money in lieu of taxes from this building?
Stop boring us Gus we dont want to se your case.
Cheers
The cost of refurbishing BC Place Stadium was about $563,000,000. That means it cost the 75,568 reportedly living in the City of Prince George in 2011 $7,450.24 each.
So when do we ever get to use it? Virtually never. And when we do, we likely have to pay for a ticket.
Oh, when the cost of the renovations is divided among the residents of the City of Vancouver (611,869 estimated for 2011) each Vancouverite ends up paying $920.13.
Just imagine how much it costs for those people living in Hixon.
On August 30, 2011 I wrote: “So the real question will now become what does the lease agreement look like?”
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/21263/1/function.DOMDocument-save
I have not found an answer to that yet in the public domnain. I have heard a figure and, if it is a net figure and there are no other hidden costs, we have a pretty good deal for an investment of under $1 million.
I think we have made a good deal.
But I think we need to be told some info on that because without it we do not have the most important part of the financial information.
Gus; Opinion250 should have a special page for Gus. Thank God…. that Opinion250 does not come in the printed form because if it did, they would need to own their own pulp mill to handle all of comments from Gus every day.
There is little point in arguing with Gus, he really thinks he knows it all.
Give it a rest Gus you are not only inaccurate many times, you are downright boring. Let some others make a comment without you trying to post 8 in return….. Geezzz
I couldn’t disagree more! I hope he keeps up his thoughtful and well researched contributions! Do we all have to agree with him all the time? Of course not! Has he ever tried to prevent comments from others?
Of course not!
If one does not like his comments – just scroll down to the next one!
Gus, take a hint.
“The cost of refurbishing BC Place Stadium was about $563,000,000. That means it cost the 75,568 reportedly living in the City of Prince George in 2011 $7,450.24 each.”
Not so Gus. But if it was only PG residents footing the bill you’d be correct.
My scroll function is wearing out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyYMho5uQCQ
I find tennis is an enjoyable game.
—————————————-
of course, some prefer to play it this way …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cNJtWEERrg
:-)
sort of like Opinion 250 compared to Facebook …..
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