Fiscal responsibility got a lot of voters on Green Spenders bandwagon… So much for that promise..

Why was all that money spent a few years ago to raise River Road and install a fancy drainage system?

Even with the fancy drainage system I am curious on how the dyke will stop flood water seeing its all gravel underneath. During high water look at what happens east end of 2nd, 3rd etc.

Jeezus! Put it into the roads! Maybe we can grow daffodils and tulips on the dike.

How is a dyke holding back seeping ground water?

‘The city has been quietly buying up property on the north side of River Road along the Nechako for the past couple of years in preparation of dyke construction.’

Speaking of financial responsibility.

I wonder how much the City has spent on buying up property that has zero revenue generating potential.

Rocky. They spent the money on River Road because they got a grant from the Federal Government under the Ports Development Fund, to upgrade River Road, for the CN Intermodal Terminal. The City had to throw in around $2.5 to $3 Million for their share. Problem is, it was never necessary, for a number of reasons.

1. The traffic from the CN Intermodal Terminal would amount to about the same traffic that used to haul lumber from Bear Lake to Winton Global, and therefore there was no increase in traffic.

2. The Imperial Oil Bulk Station on River Road closed down in 2011, and this produced a huge reduction in trucking.

3. The **Keylock** gas station that was on River Road shut down after the last flood, and reduced traffic .

4. Once the Citys Community Energy System is completed, they will have a decrease in trucks going from Lakeland to the Pulp Mills.

Its interesting to note that after the last flood, the City got money from the Provincial Government, to stabilize and upgrade River Road. They spent all the Provincial money raising the road etc; and in fact piled the gravel on top of the existing pavement, and then when they got the Federal money, they tore it all up and re did it all.

Its pretty obvious that the City uses grants from the Province and Feds to help support their pet programs, and contractors.

This money from the Prov and Feds for putting in dikes will also cost us money because the City portion will be close to $3 Million and there will be interest on top of that. Thats how we get into debt. Getting money from the other levels of Goverment for **stupid** projects, and then borrowing our portion to match. We did it with the Community Energy System, the River Road Upgrade, The cenotaph upgrade, the tunnel under Victoria St, and now the diking system.

Another problem is how this diking system will work. As far as I know this water goes underground and seeps up on the South side of River Road. So how is diking going to stop this??? How deep will this dike be??

I still maintain that the flooding is a result of silt at the confluence of the Fraser and Nechako rivers, and that a huge dredging system in that area would solve the problem.

In addition, in the not to distant future, I expect that Rio Tinto Alcan, will make another application to the Province to complete Kemano (2). If they do, and they get the go ahead, then there will not be enough water left in Nechako River to flood a back yard swimming pool.

The City because of its inability to refuse Provincial or Federal money, will go ahead with this project for no other reason than to access and spend the available money. They are for all intents and purposes **Grant money junkies** and need to be rehabilitated.

We need to put the brakes on this project until all the aspects are looked into. Rushing into it and putting us further in debt is not an option.

Lets keep in mind that there has been no significant flooding in this area since the Kenny Dam was built in the 1950’s and the few times it did flood since then, was an anomaly. Mainly because of high water, and ice jams happening simutaneously.

“We know we need to do this work”

I am not sure how anyone knows that the work needs to be done.

There are major cities and regions in the world that are rethinking the approach to natural waterway management during annual high water periods and have been gradually implementing the removal of past barrier construction projects. As a result of these civil control structures, breaches have been fewer but much more catastrophic when they do occur due to the waterways being constricted.

The best examples I am familiar with are the Mississippi in the USA and the Rhine in Germany and Holland.

While the hurricane Katrina was the incident that initiated the flooding in New Orleans, had the army engineers not constructed such high levees the flooding would not have been as great. In fact, many of the low lying areas where houses were built, would not have been built on.

As with a medical opinion, I would seek some additional engineering advice from those who have an alternate pinion of how to deal with the confluence of the Nechak and Fraser, especially during freeze up, before making decisions which may be regretted in the near future.

On the face of it, I think one may end up protecting the confluence and increasing problems upstream during heavy precipitation years which could include worse erosion on riverbank homes upriver of the Nechako bridge and even north of the foothills bridge, depending on the height of the Dyke.

Here is what has been realized after more than half a century of dealing with floods along the Mississippi.

1.It has been suggested that higher embankments should be built and the river deepened but, where this has been done, not only on the Mississippi, it has produced rivers flowing many metres above the surrounding floodplain.

As the levee is built up, sediment in the river grows too; the river beds – and the water levels rise. This leads to disaster when the barriers collapse.

2.”Provide room for the river” – This is a recent developing philosophy that humans should adapt to the shape of river basins that naturally result from flooding histories. This philosophy is currently being translated into land use change and relocation of inhabitants and dykes on certain floodplains, especially along the Rhine.

Arable land is being converted to forest, marsh or wet grazing meadows. Inhabitants are being relocated, with compensation, to higher elevations, and dykes are being relocated back from the main channel such that the entire floodplain cross section can accommodate a much larger volume of water.

Measures taken include:
•An increase in ‘water meadows’ which can be allowed to flood when necessary. The sealing of the soil surface with tarmac or concrete in vulnerable areas is being limited to slow the water run off into the rivers.

•Ground coverage of vegetation with woodlands and grasslands is being increased.

•The use of fertilizers on soil is being very carefully monitored because these affect the soil structure and its ability to retain water.

•Adequate maintenance of dykes and flood walls.

•allow more space for trees on the floodplain, metres of silt accumulated over many years has been stripped and deep trenches constructed.

I think we have to get back to thinking that flooding is, for the most part, controlled by nature and humankind can influence the impact of flooding to a limited degree only.

So, it this going to be money well spent? I am certainly not convinced. But hey, it’ll keep the contractors happy and it’ll get the senior governments to send some more money in our direction. Most of that kind of construction money will actually stay in this community. That is the bright side of the coin.

Let’s see. The city chops 28 positions, including 9 working employees, to save a couple million. Now Green talks about borrowing a couple million for the city’s share of a dyke? How many jobs does that translate into being cut as that debt goes onto the books?

“Lets keep in mind that there has been no significant flooding in this area since the Kenny Dam was built in the 1950’s and the few times it did flood since then, was an anomaly”

So the 1972 flood which caused the Island Cache residences to be removed was an anomaly. A history revisionist, eh? :-)

http://www.shimajournal.org/issues/v4n2/g.%20Evans%20Foster%20Shima%20v4n2%2088-97.pdf

BTW, dykes can be built on some permeable soils if one supplements them with dewatering channels coupled with mechanical pumping systems. Whether it can be done here would depend on the drawdown curve which could be achieved given the soil type.

With regard to the above link (Evans/Foster)
Good reading Gus, and very informative.
I remember the ‘Cache very well, friends lived there.

Question, regarding flood solutions:
As I recall, the prevailing wisdom of City Council and their hired flood experts was that dredging the confluence would not be effective, rather, the historic channel that effectively made the Island Cache should be reopened to facilitate natural drainage of water backed up by an ice dam at the confluence of the Fraser & Nechako, then why do we ‘need’ a dyke?

This expenditure, in my opinion, is unnecessary at this time.

Dredge the confluence!
metalman.

“Unfortunately, the dyke was insufficient to stop a later spring flood, when sustained high
water levels combined with porous alluvial soils resulted in the water of the Nechako
seeping under the dyke. This flood, in May and June of 1972, was the fulcrum the city
needed to lever the Cache residents out of their homes.”

Most likely the incidents of flooding have been greatly reduced since the dam went in.

1972 flood

High temperatures in the Interior valleys toward the end of May caused rapid snowmelt, and many of the Interior rivers peaked at record levels in the latter part of May and in the first week of June. To protect low-lying lands, sandbagging of Prince George and Kamloops was undertaken. A number of subdivisions were inundated on June 2 in Kamloops, and in one area, 150 homes and 52 mobile homes were flooded due to dyke failure.

Following a cooling trend beginning on May 30, substantial snowmelt again occurred with a sudden rise in temperature, accompanied by heavy rains. Subsequently, the upper Fraser reached another peak between June 11 and 14. On June 16, the lower Fraser peaked at Hope, with a maximum instantaneous flow of 3400 cubic metres per second and a maximum elevation of 7.1 metres, well above the danger level of 6.1 metres.

This second and last major peak of the season, which was higher than the first, increased the extent of flooding in already flooded areas. On the Fraser River, the areas most affected were Prince George in the upper Fraser and downstream from Hope in the lower Fraser Valley. The dyking systems were generally effective in preventing large-scale damage.

Damage on the Fraser in 1972 amounted to $10 million ($36.9 million in 1998 dollars) and occurred mainly in the upstream communities of Prince George and Kamloops, and in the Surrey area of the lower Fraser Valley.

I gather this is the source for seamutt’s post.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/eau-water/default.asp?lang=En&n=B7B62836-1

The dykes referenced by Environment Canada are temporary sandbag dykes erected in preparation for the event.

Such dykes not only have seepage through subsurface soils if the soils are too porous, but also seepage through the dykes themselves.

With permananet dykes, seepage through the dykes is highly unlikely and the amount of subsurface seepage can be mitigated to an extent related directly to the amount of soil porosity and the capacity of the mechanical dewatering system installed behind the dyke.

As far as the north side of the Nechako goes, along Pulpmill Rd. I understand that the recent flooding in that area was primarily, if not totally, due to seepage through the soil, as is the case when the CN site and the eastern part of the downtown industrial section is flooded on occasion.

When one constricts the flow of the Nechako through dyking, it is likely that during high water periods the river can be many feet higher in the contained waterway than the surrounding land while the groundwater, even with seepage, may not flood the surrounding areas at all or to any great depth and extent because the amount of water that appears to be in the channel, when distributed over a larger area, is actually not as much as it appears to be.

Solution … move the residential buildings out of the flood plain and use the land for its agricultural and/or natural “park” value. There are not that many buildings. Some may be able to be lifted above the high water mark; at least the level we currently think would be the high water mark. As we have seen recently, that too can change.

Gus. You need to slow down and smell the roses. If you want to see how bad this area flooded before they built the Kenney Dam. Look at the flood of 1948. Which I happened to observe first hand. All of first Avenue on both sides, the CN Rail Yard, and all the Eastern part of the City was flooded. There used to be a bridge over the **slough** just South of 20th Avenue on Queensway which would be almost under water, and the water would back up and flood in the area, where Victoria St turns into Highway 16. There used to be a huge slough in that area also.

Since the Kenney Dam there has been little or no work at the confluence of the Fraser and Nechako. At one time it was **normal** to take gravel out out this area during the winter months.

So one could say the flood of 72 was an anomaly, dont you think.

Prince George is built on an old river bed, and during high water there is seepage all over the City.

Gus no my quote was taken out of your link.

So one could say the flood of 72 was an anomaly, dont you think.
========================================
Heavens Pal did you have to as that question. We will just end up with another 2077 word lecture from Gus.
Cheers

From the Environment Canada link.

Fraser RIver floods … there are three shown
– 1894
– 1948
– 1972

We know very little, if anything about the Fraser River flood effects in the PG area for 1894, I assume.

So, we have two years mentioned when there were people here who were able to image records and did. 1948 was one that was before the building of the reservoir and 1972 after the building of the reservoir.

I feel that two events, with a 50/50 split, do not point to the reservoir having any significant influence. I am somehow leaning to weather/climate conditions being the key determinant. But hey, go ahead and believe what you wish. In the end, the City will not be listening to anyone that posts on here, including you and me Palopu. So the whole thing is moot.

Seems people are forgetting about the flood of the spring/summer of 2007 … and also forgetting that the Nechako delta is not the only location that floods
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/6693/3/great+flood+of+2007+over+for+vanderhoof?id=&st=10215

And here is one of the 250 articles on the flooding caused by ice build up in the same year.

Trying to keep it under 2,000 words to save them in the bank in case I need them later. Hope I am putting the right words in the bank. Don’t want to be left with too many useless articles and adverbs.

The lake behind a dam acts like a buffer. If there is enough room in the lake it can adsorb a high inflow and allow a controlled release, less than the inflow and prevent flooding. But if that high inflow continues long enough then a higher release may be required to control the level of the lake, that could cause problems downstream. Without that buffer flows would be much higher during runoff, thus more frequent flooding.

It is a balancing act trying to judge where to have the lake level with weather forecasts. Lower the lake level to absorb seasonal runoff but not to low to cause a water shortage in case of a lower than predicted runoff thus restricting generation. Also the lake level might not be lowered enough and then having a higher than predicted runoff thus forcing a high release and maybe flooding.

The lake, in this case, is not primarily part of the flood management system. It’s primary purpose is to generate electricity.

As a result, a flow reversal is required to generate that electricity. Thus, on an annual average, there is less water flowing east than the natural system generated.

Coupled with all that is the requirment to keep the fishies happy with nice cold enough water temperatures. So now we are trying to balance at least 3 things.

If one were to try to protect the Nechako from extreme fluctuations of high water events, one would have to start developing systems such as have been put in place on the Rhine over an 800 year period (hey, no hydrologists then .. LOL) and over a much shorter period on the Mississippi. Such mflood management techniques would include the temporaty capture of water from Nechako tributaries into wetlands and lakes and even widening the natural channel in those areas where that tis accomplishable.

I think what is starting to come out of this is that this is not really a matter for PG or Vanderhoof to deal with. This is a provincial responsibility and one that I would think that the Fraser Basin group should be working on. But, again, they are likely only dealing with the lower Fraser rather than the entire Fraser River watershed.

Link to a study called “Flood management along the Lower Mississippi and Rhine Rivers (The Netherlands) and the continuum of geomorphic adjustment”

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169555X08002924

And specific to the Mississippi flood of 1993
http://www.iranrivers.ir/Upload/PaperFile/12galloway.pdf

Fraser Basin Council page on Flood Management – primarily if not totally lower part of the Fraser. Our role up here is to be the early warning signal.
http://www.fraserbasin.bc.ca/programs/flood.html

“The Fraser Basin Council remains committed to encouraging government authorities to make flood hazard management a priority in the long term.”

Very comforting ….. :-(

The fact that the majority of water behind the dam goes through the Kemano Generating station and then into the Pacific Ocean is the reason why the Nechako has been reduced to about two thirds of its natural flow. Water that once flowed to the Fraser, now goes West into the Ocean.

So we have basically reduced the amount of water into the Nechako on a permanent basis, and its only when the run off is more than what can be handled behind the dam, that they release more water into the Nechako. They also release more during the salmon season.

So it is rare to have enough water in the Nechako these days to cause any consideral flooding. Prior to building the dam, it was a different situation. Floods were expected at some level every year.

A good dredging job at the confluence of the rivers to ensure that the water from the Nechako can flow into the Fraser would be a big step in reducing the ice jams, and hence the flooding.

The fact that the above mentioned floods all took place during spring run off should be your first hint that something is haywire. Until recently I do not recall any **Winter Floods** Its obvious that there have been some significant changes in the flow of water, and in the amount of sediment that is settling at the confluence.

Talk to some river boat operators and they will tell you that years ago they could go up the Fraser River from South Ft George and then go up the Nechako on the South side of the River. They now have to go up the Fraser, across to the North side near the pulp mills and then up the North side of the Nechako because the water is to **low** on the South side.

The lower the water the sooner you get get ice jams.

Palopu wrote: “A good dredging job at the confluence of the rivers to ensure that the water from the Nechako can flow into the Fraser would be a big step in reducing the ice jams, and hence the flooding.”

That is precisely what we have to do. Just try to convince a bunch of idiots who hired a group of more idiots to do a study. They showed us a bunch of pretty pictures and raised what they call “the 200 year level” of the Fraser 1.8 meters. The result of doing that lowered the selling price of properties that were not previously in a “flood plain”, making it impossible for those people to sell their homes for the full value. Of course, property taxes were not reversed after that useless study but continue to rise.

But Palopu does not have a Piled high and Deeper.

Palopu wrote: “Until recently I do not recall any **Winter Floods** “

Gee, Palopu, you’re a PG boy and you don’t know about the extensive winter flooding. You should visit the museum some time to look at their archives. Luckily they are on the net and can be viewed here …. talk a walk though the history of floods, including winter floods due to ice jambs on the Nechako. Remember, the Cameron St. bridge which was just replaced was built to replace a bridge that has been damaged by ice.
http://www.settlerseffects.ca/pls/cats_web/WEB_EXHIBITIONS.show_item?ITEM_ID=336&LANG=EN&PAGENUM=1

Another source people might want to try is the digitized newspaper section …

Here is a link to the front page of the Citizen, December 21, 1933. Check the article on the right hand side.

http://pgnewspapers.lib.pg.bc.ca/fedora/repository/pgc:1933-12-21-01

Railway Yards Submerged by Nechako River.

TWO FEET OVER TRACKS
Peak Reached Monday Night But There is Report of Flood from Vanderhoof

The Canadian National Railway is having a lot of trouble with high water in the local railway yards. On Monday the floating ice commenced to jam at the mouth of the Nechako. The river was full of floating ice, and as it grounded in the shallows it soon formed a dam which backed the water up as far as the bridge across the Nechako. In a very short time the water commenced cutting a channel through an old slough near the western extremity of the railway yard. The water came in through the slough faster than it could get away. The scores of excavations scattered over the fifty acres of yard were soon filled, and in a short time the main line was carrying a torrent of water which had the speed of a millrace. The water rose steadily, and late on Monday evening it had mounted above the platform at the railway depot and was pouring into the basement of the station building.

The water receded somewhat on Tuesday morning, but there was still a good foot of it above the railway yard and it became necessary to shut off the steam which furnished heat to the station building and freight sheds. With a strong north wind blowing and a sub-zero temperature this made it bad for the men in the offices, but they did the best they could by setting up heating stoves bringing the pipes out through the windows.

Monday night the residents of the railway “cache” decided to move out. The water had risen so suddenly that they were unable to remove any of their furniture, getting away little more than the clothes they were wearing. Just what their loss will be will depend upon how high the water rises. With the heavy snow falling and the low temperature ice was forming quickly. The railway company kept the main line open with an engine and plow which was kept moving up and down from one end of the yard to …..

I think he can pile it quite high, seamutt. Now, if he had a PhD, some people might actually believe him …. LOL

http://pgnewspapers.lib.pg.bc.ca/fedora/repository/pgc:1957-03-21-01

March 21, 1957

Ice Destroys Temporary Bridge

Tons of ice unleashed by a flooding Nechako River last night caused untold thousands of dollars worth of damage to a. temporary crossing at the site of the new Nechako bridge a half-mile west of Prince George.
A large section of falsework bridge was torn loose by great chunks of river ice that was set free by the fast running river.
Extent of the damage measured’ in material and time lost has not been estimated but may run close to the $100,-000 mark.
A spokesman for Assinoboia Construction Company estimated that work on the projected bridge will be delayed by as much at four weeks at the very minimum
A rise of two feet in the river overnight has caused the ice to break free.
Timber from the temporal bridge is strewn along a length of the river as far east as the old Nechako bridge. ICE JAM FEARED
At press time work crews of Assiniboia were rushing the completion of a coffer dam on the north bank of the river.
Company officials’ fear that if the ice begins to jam, the river will back up and flood the two coffer dams that are already down.
As soon as crews complete pouring concrete today to seal the north bank dam, work will be halted until the ice at the river is cleared.
It is estimated that the ice will remain for tit least another two weeks.
And it will require an additional two weeks to .construct a sec* oiid falsework bridge.
There was no equipment lost when the ice swept the bridge away last night.
Officials, noting a rise in the river during the past few days,
ment from the deck of the bridge 48 hours earlier. RIVER DROPPED
It is believed that what caused the ice to break loose occurred when the river dropped about six inches on Tuesday, leaving the ice suspended above the surface of the water. This caused the two-foot thick sheet of ice to weaken and the sudden rise in the river overnight was all that was required to break the sheet into giant chunks of ice.
Meanwhile City Engineer George Harford announced that (See ICE DESTROYS, Poge 2)

Another interesting article on the front page …..

Editorial – Whither Prince George?

Prince George is fast approaching a community crisis which could well -write finis to its phenomenal growth as the metropolis of Central British Columbia.
Within five years at the present rate of growth it is liable to become one of the most disagreeable cities in the Dominion of Canada.

When this state of hopelessness is reached its growth will stop and an opposite trend will commence.

These may seem harsh words, but let’s face some harsh facts.

In spite of the prosperity which has existed here since shortly after World War II, the city has failed to keep municipal services apace with the expanding population.

This is not said in criticism of the successive city councils which have administered the affairs of the municipality, but simply as an all-too-apparent fact.

Of a total of more than 70 miles of city street, less than 1(> miles are paved.
Along these 70-odd miles of streets we have 3.5 miles of storm drains. We have less than 1.0 miles of sanitary sewers. We have less than six miles of concrete sidewalk. Wo have not a single completely developed municipal park.

And what is worse, we have at City Hall no concrete remedy to alleviate these conditions, or, what is worse ¦again, even keep improvement apace with population growth.

Our municipal services are falling farther behind every year.

At the present rate at which municipal revenue is amassed Prince George would have to stop growing for 10 years in order to pay for those improvements which are lacking today.

But the growth of Prince George shows no signs of coming to a stop, or even slowing down. On the contrary its rate of growth is accelerating annually.
The seriousness of the situation is appalling and yet little or nothing is being done about it.

We are at present steering a course which can lead us nowhere but into a morass of bogged down municipal development which will drive people away from this city just as certainly as would the plague.

We have had a winter of frozen water services and frozen watermains, we are entering a spring of flooded streets and basements, after which will follow a summer of clouds of dust.

People, especially those who have come to this city fairly recently from communities where such conditions do not exist, will not take long to seek homes elsewhere.
Those whose livelihood is inextricably bound to the (CONINUED ON PAGE 2)”‘

Prince George community will perpetuate the exodus to fringe development, thereby creating another municipal problem. Those who can leave it all behind them and move out of this area will leave.

New communities may spring up in the district and attract residents on the basis that development need only keep pace with growth .and not have to catch up to growth which has already taken place.
Tracing the history of Prince George back to the 1930’s makes it perfectly clear why we are in this position today.

The city was hit by the depression and hit hard. There was no money with which to construct improvements. Then came World War II and with it a measure of sudden municipal expansion, but also with it a shortage of money for municipal work, and critical shortages of materials.

The uncertainty of the post war period brought about a state of hesitancy to finance improvements among city councilors who were still suffering from the depression-spawned reluctance to spend money and the natural reluctance of the politician to increase taxes.

Growth of the city snowballed and kept snowballing and the day-to-day difficulties of administering an under-serviced city have snowballed to the point where most of the administrators’ time, and much of the city’s money, goes into stop-gap measures designed to alleviate just one more 24 or 4S-hour emergency.

Works crews are kept running from the scene of one natural catastrophe to another, from a near-crisis at one end of town to n real crisis at the other end.

Only the fact that Mother Nature spreads her seasons and their attendant difficulties over four distinct periods of the year has saved us from total chaos, for if dust, frozen pipes, flooded basements, inundated streets, water shortages, mud holes and heavy snows all hit us at the same time the city would be deserted in a fortnight.

We may reasonably ask, “Where has the money gone which could have partly) if not wholly, prevented our preserft situation?”
It has gone, quite justifiably, into another demand of growth; the construction and operation of a school system. The fastest-growing municipal school system in the Dominion, by the way.

And what is more, the money which the city should be spending on the improvement and expansion of municipal services will continue to go into our schools unless the provincial government becomes sufficiently concerned over our future to grant a substantial measure of relief.

In addition, our city council must face up to the task of levying a realistic mill rate whose increased contribution to municipal coffers will annually reduce the backlog of services which we must have.
Unless the council is willing to do this, and unless the provincial government is willing to concede that the fastest growing citv in Western Canada is entitled to extraordinary assistance in facing problems peculiar to a rapid rate of growth, we can look forward to a city whose progress will become mired to a standstill by the unwillingness of people to live under frontier conditions in these days of plenty.