One for the little guy. This will get Council some PR, while they get ready to nail us with tax increases, etc;

So we are open for business but not here… And after months of negotiations they could not come to agreement on the old cadillac ranch location (which btw is hardly a stones throw from this location). So our council is full of old fuddy duddies that won’t allow any “adult” entertainment in this town. But don’t worry, we will soon spend fifty million dollars on a PAC where they can go sit and golf clap for thier friends to perform.

I wonder who they voted for last November? Secret ballot you say? OK.

Lyn Hall basically said that we are open for business but we are saving this area for residential. People do not move into the downtown because it is the quietest place in town,they move there to be close to the action…. dining ,arts ,clubs and the vibrance that goes with these lifestyles. IMO the council just shot a very large hole in the downtown redevelopement plan. Mr Hall and all of the other naysayers on council appear to be against business downtown. It will be a long time before any entertainment investment will try to locate in the downtown. The downtown is out of bounds folks. Show me a vibrant downtown anywhere WITHOUT club entertainment and I will show you a ghost town. Something like present day Prince George. Thanks to the Coyotes Group for trying. Your loss is PG’s loss.

So, just how are things going around the existing night clubs? I know how the Cadilac worked out. What about the Generator? Or, the Rum Jungle? Nice peaceful places to go dancing? Joe’s Place was popular too. But, not sure what happened there. There are just less and less high end places to go in PG. My wife and I would like to go dancing. But, without a bodyguard or escort to the car. We have problems in this city and more drinking establishments are not the solution at this time. In my opinion. And, if you can’t push the booze, you will go broke.

…and in 2015 when over 5000 young adults come for the games,I’m sure they will be more than happy to go to a pub.Because we all know that young adults hate getting together with people their own age and doing things like dancing and having a few drinks….they just hate doing that stuff…

Oh yeah, there is nothing elite athletes enjoy more than sitting in a night club with blaring country music and guzzling beer. Great way to prepare for competition – if beer pong was part of the games.

Give your head a shake and quit using the games as a poor excuse to suit your agenda.

giterdun: “It will be a long time before any entertainment investment will try to locate in the downtown.”
Precisely. The tail that wags the dog in the city wants only the business development downtown that it wants, nothing else. All others need not apply.

The writing was on the wall for us country fans a couple of weeks back when the head of the mayors pro-business committee wrote a letter to council opposing this new business. Yeah there is some irony in that.

Ms. north lives a few blocks away from coyotes location. I hear she was a big supporter of the mayor in the last election. No doubt her letter opposing this new business carried a lot of influence with our new mayor and council. Hopefully Ted you’ll find another location.

They want residential in that area? There was residential in the area which is now all switching to light commercial/office, unless you count the booze can houses that are empty…a real estate business turned a house into an office right behind the old Odeon. Not sure if the old theater will make a good apartment complex…

Time to face it peeps, downtown is ready for burial

Would of been a nice addition to that part of town. Quality entertainment to boot. Hopefully the potential owners can redefine the plans to make it a better appetite to the community.

Maybe the planning dept could also expound on how it does NOT conform to the OCP?

Anyone ever read the “Policy in the Smart Growth on the Ground Downtown Prince George Concept Plan” ?

They want the best use of older buildings without the need to tear down and rebuild where possible in a mixture of residential and business uses.

Who designed this anyway…with a ‘river’ in the middle of the downtown..it ain’t gonna flow guys and mosquitoes are going to be a huge issue. Even the roads are ridiculous, did they think of the snow we get 6 months a year?

The Coliseum is not in the plan…just a parking lot so say goodbye to the Kings.

The only way to get it to what the design is would be to tear it all out and start again, but maybe that is Commonwealth’s plan (oops meant to say City Hall’s plan)

“Crescents Neighbourhood Plan” the area is outside the boundaries of this plan so no real study required here…

“Residential Wood Innovation Comprehensive District” the use by the proponent was to renovate not build new and by the looks of it a lot of wood is incorporated into the design…

“4th Avenue Flex plan” the area again is at least 2 blocks away, the plan is “Comprised of offices today, the District is targeted for expansion to include 3 to 4 storey townhouses and mixed commercial facing Victoria” not sure how this affects the proposal…

“OCP” they stress the need for an ‘entertainment district’ in the downtown but the only reference is to movie theaters. They want to stress the need for year round entertainment activities which will aid in reinforcing the downtown as a regional destination…

Anyhow, not sure where planning was on this but I am sure if they got the word to quash the proposal they did

Just read planning dept report to council. Interesting on how they use the impact on existing neighbourhood theory here.

What killed it was putting this establishment here may negate future sales and interest in building condos in the adjacent area which is in the downtown master plan. My question is how far down the road are we talking?

Another interesting thing to note is RCMP response of “Another concern was the proximity of the proposed establishment to the new RCMP detachment parking lot for police officer’s private vehicles”

This application to rezone is an interesting one. It seems to have some undertones of the Supreme Court of Canada Ruling against the City of Prince George regarding the refusal of a business permit for an adult boutique operation in 1976. I arrived here one year before this hit the local media. I wondered what hillbilly town had I landed in. It was unbelievable from a legal point of view.

The judgment can be viewed here:
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1977/1978scr1-458/1978scr1-458.html
In summary, it states the following:
Refusal of business licence—Council not empowered to refuse licence on basis it seeks to protect community’s moral welfare—Municipal Act, R.S.B.C

Owner applied to the City for a business licence permitting the respondent to conduct an adult boutique. Council passed a resolution withholding the licence. Owner was given an opportunity to show cause why the licence should not be withheld. By a two-thirds vote, as required by the Municipal Act, R.S.B.C., Council rejected a resolution to grant the licence. Moral implications would seem to have been the determining consideration of Council.

A motion by the owner for an order quashing the resolution and for a writ of mandamus to compel issuance of the licence was dismissed. This judgment was reversed on appeal to the Court of Appeal of BC (the City lost its case at this level).
The City appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada. It held that the appeal by the City should be dismissed.

The final part of the judgment is an interesting one in light of Council, with one dissenter, Councillor Everett , not allowing the rezoning application to go to a public hearing.

“The facts are capable of raising an issue over the application of natural justice rules. BEFORE GIVING THE APPLICANT A HEARING COUNCIL DECIDED AGAINST THE APPLICATION. The applicant was then called upon to show reasons why the licence should not be withheld. One of the aldermen decided to refuse the application without perusing the catalogues depicting the items to be sold. The applicant was denied an opportunity to speak in reply to the representative of the Prince George Ministerial Association. Interesting questions arise as to burden and audi alterem partem but I do not deem it necessary to consider them in view of the conclusion which I have reached on other aspects of the case.”

For those not familiar with the Latin legal term, the maxim, audi alterem partem, means that no person shall be condemned, punished or have any property or legal right compromised by a court of law without having heard that person.

Looking at PGMap, the following are some of the CL1 (Liquor primary) properties currently zoned for a use such as contemplated by Coole. Of course, the location he is looking at is the best from the point of view of the use of an existing building that meets the physical requirements of a club the size he is looking at.

The most interesting ones
•The Legion. (City owns the adjacent parking to the east)
•The old National – Dominion and First
•To the south of Cimo, corner of 7th and Victoria – the so called Community Garden which is blight compared to the one on Davie and Burrard in Vancouver. Likely does not want to build new.
•Fourth and Brunswick south west corner – senior centre (now there is an interesting one) does not even have to provide parking
Others
•Generator on Third
•Keg property on George (their holding lounge grew too large at some time in the past)
•Days Inn
•Ramada
•Croft on 4th
•1177 third – Rheingold – GALA
•Italian Centre on 5th and Dominion
•The old Joe’s Place on 2nd (interesting that these places do not seem to have been rezoned to new uses unless PGMap is not updated in a timely fashion to be of any use to people)
City owned
•PG Hotel site.
•Columbus Hotel
•Brunswick Parkade portion (old Cadillac Ranch)
So, there are opportunities, but very limited. It is obvious that the City is closing in on large liquor primary options in the downtown. The question is, where would the City allow such a facility in PG. They have to allow it somewhere, otherwise they are effectively using zoning to refuse business licenses not only for a specific use, but likely to a specific person.

I think Coole should be heard under the “natural law” and I think the City needs to be proactive and address the issue of larger, multi use club facilities such as the one proposed.

There is definitely a double standard when one compares this to the Haldi Lake situation. In that case there was considerable opposition to the new use, the same as with this proposal, yet Council not only had a public hearing, but they rules against the neighbourhood objections.

Some lawyers look for cases such as this which they hope may land them in the Supreme Court of Canada.

That should be Haldi Road ….. :-(

BTW, an other situation which prompts me to wonder why there is no Municipal Board in BC.

An intersting quote from Seneca of some 2,000 years ago.

“He who has come to a finding without hearing the other party has not been just, even though his finding may have been just.”

Seems Councillor Everett may be the only one on City Council who understands.

I just watched the Council debate on this issue. A number of Councillors were opposed to this because it is on the edge of the CBD and close to residential areas. The indicated that they would likely support the application had it been closer to to centre of the City.

Yet we have seen letters from people all over the City opposed to this, as well as one at least from an individual living in the new townhouses on Victoria between First and Second.

So, if such a club should not be close to residential, and the City is trying to promote residential use of the downtown, and residetnial use of the CBD is starting to increase, the question begging to be answered is whether those Councillors with those words are actually talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Again, where is planning on this as far as a solution goes to meet the spectrum of downtown users?

Why is Coucnil, not only this one, but also the last one and likely even the one before (this is not a new issue, by any means) not dealing with this in a more expedient and proactive manner?

Why are people such as owners of nightclubs not sitting on the Downtown Partnership group so that these apparently conflicting uses can be worked out in a collaborative fashion?

Why … why … why? I feel like a little kid asking my parents a question that seems to deal with some obvious issues but also present some obvious solutions.

Well said Gus!
I would like to know how the new police station.Was permitted to build where it is.
If they are so concerned about the various neighbourhoods.
Was consideration given to the release of drunks & criminals in the neighbourhood.

At least with the nightclub kitty corner to the new police station it would have made policing easier.:)

Maybe City Council/Admin can amend the OCP and other bylaws to have areas designated as “NO FUN ZONE”.

So this building will sit vacant for many years unless someone develops it into something else?

I am not a drinker. I am in my 40’s, married with children, and while I wouldn’t have been a frequent flier of this establishment, we likely would have gone from time to time. There is nowhere else to go if you want a night out with friends and to let loose. Some people like to do this and can do it responsibly.

I read somewhere that they tried to negotiate use of the former Cadillac Ranch building but that the City wouldn’t allow it, so they moved on to this location. Why?

Ultimately, I don’t think the rejection has anything to do with location. The City has proven they can make anything happen if they want it.

These people didn’t even get the chance to try and that’s what bothers me the most.

I’m sick and tired of the City saying no to business. Empty buildings everywhere and nothing is happening. It’s like a ghost town. Our downtown is a joke. We met some people recently who had been here last summer and stayed at the Ramada. They came in from the East, into downtown and needed a place to stay. Needless to say, they ended up staying in their room because after a 15 minute walk, with everything around them shut down on a Saturday night, there really wasn’t anything for them to do or see. Maybe a night club wouldn’t have been their first choice, maybe it would have been. The existing clubs do not cater to the more mature demographic in this town, that’s for sure.

Bring the people downtown and more business will follow.

It’s a conspiracy. Jerry Falwell and the moral majority are actually running this town.

I think, the city waits until certain building suffer financial ruin, then they buy it up. This is maybe why the dont like to see a business do well. After all the city is playing business man.

It would be interesting to know the opinion of the DBIA. They were pretty vocal about the liquor application at the coast inn. They are pretty silent now but then again hughy has left town.

Council talks like this would have been beside Malaspina Elementary. It is ONE BLOCK off of Victoria Street for crying out loud. One may actually have a hard time hand picking a better spot for such a business in downtown PG, LOL.

I suggest the real reason they don’t want this or any other similar type of establishment is because they know the local gang situation is completely out of control and any establishment like this (despite the best efforts of the potential owners . . . there is only so much they could do) is very likely to attract those people and feed the associated issues that come along with them. Mind you, that would be giving them credit for being able to think ahead and I’m not sure if that’s fair, LOL.

This was a done deal before Coole ever paid Versa Design to put together some glossy images.

From the City’s report

Consultation
On February 1, 2012 a public open house was held at the Prince George Civic Centre. Public notices were delivered to nearby residents and business owners in the area bounded by Vancouver Street, 3rd Avenue, Winnipeg Street, 6th Avenue, as well as adjacent office and commercial establishments north of 3rd Avenue and east of Vancouver Street.

The event was advertised in the Citizen Newspaper on January 20, 2012 and on January 26, 2012, and posted on the City’s Facebook page on January 27, 2012.

Approximately 41 people attended the event, as well as the applicants and two City staff. Attendees were given the opportunity to ask questions and provide comments as well as through comment cards. Staff collected numerous and varied responses until the deadline for written comments on February 13, 2012. All consultation responses are
attached to this report as Exhibit “F”.

These responses were summarized by City staff as follows:

Those opposed generally stated that the proposed night club would:
1.increase noise, traffic, crime, drug use, loitering, and littering;
2.negatively impact nearby businesses and organizations that have varied hours;
3.decrease property values;
4.discourage interest in commercial conversions and residential infill development;
5.be too close to the well-established residential neighbourhood nearby; and,
6.be better suited in a more central area of downtown.

Those in support stated that the night club would:
1.provide a needed entertainment venue catering to all adult ages;
2.help revitalize the downtown and improve the streetscape;
3.mitigate nuisance through security, sound insulation, indoor line ups, and ID systems;
4.support local business;
5.create jobs and add to the tax base with private investment;
6.provide opportunities for local musicians and entertainers; and,
7.effectively co-exist with nearby businesses.

What they failed to report is that the count of the sheets that were attached to the Administrative report:

I just counted them. There were 39 who supported the club. There were 12 who were opposed to it.

Why was this not reported?

There were many others others who wrote e-mails etc. at other times. I did not go through for an actual count but skimmed what they said. I would say that most if not even all were opposed.

But for a proper report, one would think that they would at least have made an attempt to keep a tally.

The problem, of course, as is typical of the city, they were not even obejctive questions. They simply asked people where they lived in general desriptve words (not addresses) and then to please comment.

They do not even know how to conduct a reasonably objective poll. They need someone with better planning education and experience in order to put together a professional report.

As or the rest with respect to existing enighbourhood plans, etc. anyone worth even a grain of salt could drive a truck through its credibility.

In the end, would the outcome have been the same. Most likely, given the lack of planning and implementation this City has been guilty of for decades in my mind and in my experience.

I find this to be interesting too:

“The RCMP expressed concerns that the size of the establishment (maximum capacity of 400 occupants) would put a strain on police resources at closing hours. Another concern was the proximity of the proposed establishment to the new RCMP detachment parking lot for police officer’s private vehicles.”

Read it carefully. CLosing hours anywhere in the city would put a strain on the RCMP. Therefor, if this is even a consideration, we will not see such a venue.

I wonder how concerts at CN Centre which have liquor seats are handled? All those drunken drivers on the road afterwards.

Good point Mitch2 ab out the specialty liquor sales at the Inn.

Let us face it, this is a temperance town. Call a spade a spade.

http://www.princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/agendas/2012/2012_03_12/documents/BL8382_rpt_MERGED.pdf

That is a link to the Administrative report. A word of warning, it is close to 60Mbytes long.

Doesn’t the City own the adjacent parking lot along 4th Avenue?

Is the City protecting it’s own “asset” for future development?

1602 4th Avenue – 2012 Assessment – $ 762,000.00 (Gross Land) (From PGMap)

Does the CIty intend on selling this land for a residential development?

Maybe city hall, Judy and her dancers, and city council along with CKPG can create and offer the city of PG an entertaining spectacle of that old movie “Footloose” without good ol’ Kevin Bacon in it.
Might have to change a few things to make it seemingly local. It can be held at the CN centre. Make it good so it can be held over.

“Doesn’t the City own the adjacent parking lot along 4th Avenue?”

Yes, they own the eastern 9 of 12 lots.

You know NMG, almost a year in Ottawa now. Am I detecting a more cynical person developing with little tolerance for small town bake sale mentality after living in a City that would not blink an eye at how to accomplish this?! ;-)

My solution is to plan a transition to city centre farmers’ market, with cheese shops, fishmongers, butchers, green grocers, candie stores, coffe shops, artisan studios, army surplus, second hand stores, housewares, restaurants, outdoor pub patios, night clubs, small offices, residential condos, etc. etc.

Call it Hammond Market, and watch the locals and the visitors flock to the area.

Start now and in 20 years one has a few heritage buildings. Oops, sorry I said that. I forgot that heritage around here means tear the building down and put up a RIP sign. LOL

Oh, that famers’ market idea for PG is now some 10 or so years old and progressing quickly ;-)

And people are worried about a PAC here. Its been going or some 40+ years. I would not worry before another 40 or so years.

Maybe we could start putting signs in for projects that never went in.

This was going to be the site of the PAC

This was going to be the site of the WIC

This was going to be the site of the San Fancisco condo specials

This was going to be the site of the Cadillac Fairview downtown Mall

Tis was going to be the site of the Miracle Centre

This was going to be the site of the CIBC downtown high rise office building

This was going to be the site of the BOM downtown high rise office building.

This was going to be the site of the Alan Skare developed high rise building on third.

I could spend all day on this.

But hey, there is nothing unusual about that, is there? Something about the best laid plans of mice and man.

Priced fish lately? Our “second biggest industry” (not counting BC bud). I am sure the fishermen don’t get even close to what our “fishmongers” sell it for.

A lady at our “farmers market” sold free range eggs at $5 a dozen. Sure hope she sold a lot of them. Being trendy isn’t cheap.

The proposed nightclub was not remotely complimentary to and could have had a negative impact on many of the surrounding existing businesses. A performance venue with a liquor primary is not necessarily a bad idea, but just because there is a suitable building available, it doesn’t mean it is a good fit with the other established businesses in the immediate vicinity. That area is full of health and wellness related businesses, including several drug and alcohol counselling offices. Not a great fit to open the type of liquor primary that despite the best intentions, also tends to attract the drug trade.

Personally, I prefer smaller venues like Hummus Brothers and Nancy O’s. I’d really like to see a few more locally owned and operated small venues that could contribute to a thriving downtown entertainment district without having to build a massive nightclub that usually has a lot of unintended problems associated with it.

I hope the proponents are able to find a more suitable location.

How about the the large empty warehouse on First Avenue. Just down the hill from the proposed site. No houses down there.

Zack Tucker wrote:

“The proposed nightclub was not remotely complimentary to and could have had a negative impact on many of the surrounding existing businesses”

“Personally, I prefer smaller venues like Hummus Brothers and Nancy O’s. I’d really like to see a few more locally owned and operated small venues”

Measuring on an aerial map Nancy O’s is 150 feet direct walking distance from the Generator entrance.

Nancy O’s had a vast option of which existing building they wanted to create a new business in. They not only chose downtown, but they also chose right accross from the Generator.

Hummus Brothers, on the other hand is about 375 feet walking distance from the Rum Jungle and 475 feet from the Generator.

I believe Nancy O’s now has a liquor primary license for the evening events. No matter. The act is that both of the places you named have evening dinner + events and are close to the two large downtown liquor primary locations left in the city. The both could have located somewhere else if they thought this would be detrimental to their operation. Obviously they did not think so.

An, of course, both chose to go with existing buildings rather than build on an empty lot downtown.

For many hundreds of years, merchants offering similar wares and services have been locating close to each other to maximize the number of people who they have access to when people are looking.

Then there are those who have a destination pull – Earls, Moxies, The Keg, etc.

As can be seen with the Keg, when you have both, you are likely to increase your customer base.

I would not worry about the merchants. They will take care of themselves. That is not what the City needs to worry about.

What the City does, however, need to worry about is providing realistic opportunities for different types of businesses to locate somehere that does not put them next to a print shop in the Carter Light Industrial area.
———————————
“That area is full of health and wellness related businesses” … So is the rest of downtown. It is virtually all we have left, service businesses and many to assist people who use various types of social services.

Is it any wonder most people in town are not interested in coming downtown? They have no need to.

Could be a great place as well as location or a large venue club, boomer.

Is it for sale? Also would require much more $ for upgrading the facility for the new use. But the structure could actually make for a funky looking interior and even exterior with all those door openings to work with.

Actually Gus, you are making my point for me. Nancy O’s and Hummusa Brothers conciously chose to locate in an area that is already home to similar, complimentary businesses. Coyotes was proposing to locate in an area where they are the outlier. Not only that, but the sheer size of their non-complimentary operation could have a negative impact on many businesses who have already located there. I am not at all surprised that there was a lot of opposition to the application. If I was a Hummus Brothers or Nancy O’s, I would welcome Coyotes near me. If I am Chinook Yoga or The Friendship Centre – not so much…

The area they Coyotes ptroposed is literally a cluster of health and healing businesses. Just doesn’t make sense.

That was some horrific typing…

Gus – Haldi Road goes to Supreme Court the week of April 23 for two days.

What is interesting is they went against the OCP for Haldi Road.- they even went against PGRD OCP to keep traffic etc away from Haldi Road. The City Councilors are on the PGRD – so figure that one out…

As for the Neighbourhood Plan – City was previously asked by the Haldi Road people for a meeting to discuss a Community/Neighbourhood plan and the City said no.

“That area is full of health and wellness related businesses” … So is the rest of downtown. It is virtually all we have left, service businesses and many to assist people who use various types of social services.

A Wellness Centre is a good idea but again wrong location, to close to residential the same as the night club in my opinion.

slinky “Maybe the planning dept could also expound on how it does NOT conform to the OCP?” Good luck with that question….

Some people go ahead with good ideas. I have been down to the Butler`s Market at 1156 4th. Ave. It is awesome, Antiques, Flea Market items, Collectibles, Baking, new items, sale items, pet supplies, you name it. Something for everyone. About 20 little shops and tables of goods, and growing. A very positive idea for this city. Only open on Sat. and Sunday, but a good idea, at least they are trying to do something to draw people downtown again. I will go back again as I go to the farmers market on Saturdays as well. They are both nice places to go on third and forth.
These people get thumbs up, the business are the ones keeping downtown alive.

“You know NMG, almost a year in Ottawa now. Am I detecting a more cynical person developing with little tolerance for small town bake sale mentality after living in a City that would not blink an eye at how to accomplish this”

It’s funny, sometimes you have to leave a place to appreciate the good things you leave behind and other times when you leave a place you also more clearly recognize all of the mind numbing stupidity that you left behind. When it comes to PG there is allot of the latter, LOL.

There are actually a few of us out there that moved from PG (all born and raised there) and we often get together and chat about the old city and how ridiculous it can be at times. Everything from the terrible city planning to getting stared at like you are a freak if you go for a run is fair game for discussion. Air quality is also up there, as is the crime situation and the general unwillingness of much of the population to adapt to changing times. Despite all of that, I still love the place. That said, I sincerely doubt there is another city in Canada that is mired in such absurdity.

Hey, maybe we can do a TV show modelled after the British “Yes Minister”. :-)

“Yes Mayor” ….. you figure out who will play the leading role(s) and picture some scripts …..

“Natural justice rules” It appears that flies out the window within Prince George…

I remember a 10 – 15 yrs back when the DBIA wanted all the social programs moved up to the 2nd floors in this city.

Seems to me, if the Cools were hellbent to have such a fancy nightclub maybe they should have renovated the PG Hotel, or built new on that property. They sold the PG for a good price, and were left with the liquor license. I beleive they thought that they would get the Cadillace Ranch, however that fell through.

Lets keep in mind that originally the City was going to buy the hotel directly from the owners, and then quit negotiating. It was later that it was purchased by others, and then sold to the City. Who knows what kinds of conversations were taking place during these negotations.

Perhaps someone else has plans for a nightclube downttown?? Who knows???

Gus. Your concept of transitioning to the Farmers Market is rather interesting. With a few exceptions you have described downtown Prince George in the 50’s and 60’s, including the Ice Cream and Candy shop, butcher, green grocer, etc;etc;

I just think the Hart needs to separate from the city of PG and incorporate on its own.

Home owners in the Hart are to pay more taxes to subsidize the downtown tax breaks and special projects and bureaucracy that wants to control who and what business takes place in the city. Its a crap deal.

If the Hart incorporated everything north of the Nechako we could have the lowest taxes of any municipality in BC being a strategic advantage that would draw in new retail and industry. PG could benefit from the spill over effect. The Hart could be allowed to develop services in our own neighborhoods, and possibly even have the highway lighted and beautified….

Public Market? Like Granville Island, but without the island?

Build the market at the old PG Hotel site and build the WIC ontop of it.

But the Hart has 6 more weeks of winter …. their snow clearing cost per residential lot would be horrendous.

And the sewage plant …. where are you going to put it? Yu have no river access, so you will have to create a huge lagoon and use it as a pool …… and the library will be closed.

South Fort George has been there and done that. Look at the state of the streets they had …… and look at all the improvements to the streets there …. LOL

Wonder what it would cost to setup fire and police service for the Hart? Oh and then there would be road maintenance, water treatment, you’d probably want a cemetery, a local government structure, garbage collection, etc. At least you could make the decision to not put fluoride into the water, LOL!

How about seperating College Heights from the City too? ;)