Globe and Mail, Feb 8, 2012
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/alberta-seeks-way-to-pay-for-bc-support-of-pipeline/article2330389

“The Alberta government is looking to clear a path for the oil sands through British Columbia by upping the economic benefits for its western neighbour – including the option of paying to modernize and expand West Coast ports.

“Premier Alison Redford’s government stressed Tuesday there were no formal discussions, much less a formal proposal, but some in the Alberta government acknowledge that British Columbians need to see a tangible benefit if they are to bear the risks of an oil pipeline and associated West Coast tanker traffic headed to Asia.”

That is tantamount to saying that from the Alberta Government’s point of view there is no tangible benefit right now.

Christy Clark has been quiet about it? Huh? Just because one does not go to the media to start the discussion, does not mean that someone is quiet about it.

Here is what it says in the G&M about that.

“In a January meeting, B.C. Premier Christy Clark bluntly told Ms. Redford that public opinion is against the pipeline in British Columbia – Alberta gets the benefits while B.C. carries the risks of environmental disaster, according to senior officials in B.C.

“Alberta Energy Minister Ted Morton brought the debate into the open when he told The Globe and Mail editorial board on Monday that, to get British Columbians to support the proposed pipeline, there will have to be clearer benefits to that province.”

So, she delivered the message and the message seemed to be understood.

Now, if only City Council can pay attention to the message and provide some support. We are, afer all, the largest community of the string of communities which parallels the proposed pipeline corridor. And we need infrastructure maintenance help, as do other communities along the way, I am sure.

If the communities can work together, and the provoincial government joins in, then we will likely get more benefit from this pipeline. The feds can force it, but if Alberta and BC can see eye to eye on this, the Feds have no choice.

“Prince George councilor Brian Skakun says just like many taxpayers, he can’t understand why the City continues to move toward borrowing millions of dollars for an unneeded dyke when our streets are falling to pieces as never before.”

If only Brian were someone it politics… maybe a City councillor or someone who had similar influence or a voice, maybe he could work to change things. Hmm, what to do…

It baffles me why we haven’t spent more time investigating the kinds of materials that would work best with our freeze-thaw climate rather than continuing to patch up unsuitable surfaces. If we put some effort into finding and using the right material to start, maybe we wouldn’t have to repair it so often.

And where are those who campaigned on a platform of better roads?! These aren’t potholes. They’re craters. Huge chunks of road, gone.

Nice to see a councilor step outside of the Green Regime and speak realistically.

BTW, we need both, proper protection against floods as well as drivable roads.

To pit one against the other in a popularity or priorty contest is not taking care of the duty the City has to protect its citizens from damaging their property (vehicles, private buildings and city property) in both cases.

Send in or sign the AAP forms to voice your opposition to the River road dike. Our only chance to stop the waste of our tax dollars by gang-green.

Pr Rupert Port expansion has been going on for a number of years. Back in February they announced a $15 Million contribution from the Federal Govt. In addition the :Province announced $15 Million and CN Rail and the Pr Rupt Authority each announced contributions of $30 Million.

Not sure how much or where any money from Alberta would be spent in Pr Rupert. After all there has to be some gaurantee of business to support further expansion. Sounds to me like Alberta is grabbing at straws.

At the end of the day the :Ports of Canada are owned and operated by the Federal Government throught the Port Authoritys, and they will make the decisions in regards to expansion etc;

Have a nice day.

JohnnyBelt, we have not come to the end of the game quite yet. The players are all still on the field with a few new ones put onto the field.

In the quest to win the game, the first quarter ended in December 2011. We now have three more quarters to play …. 2012, 2013, 2014 …….

It could get exciting. We really do not even know quite yet who is playing on what side. Well, at least I do not. Maybe others have it all figured out.

Any office pools going on this yet?

gus: “It could get exciting. We really do not even know quite yet who is playing on what side. Well, at least I do not. Maybe others have it all figured out.”

True. This site is filled with people who believe they have it all figured out. I like to poke fun at those people. ;-)

I really miss living in PG (I do)… but thank gawd I don’t have to drive on those roads at this time of the year. They were (and are) horrendous and I believe they are hard on a vehicle.

So I agree that there needs to be more spent on road rehabilitation in PG.

Palopu …. it says: “including the option of paying to modernize and expand West Coast ports.”

Prince Rupert is only one of those. Where the money will be spent will be where the BC government of the day feels it will benefit the people in the province the most, as it should be.

“Under one proposal being discussed, Alberta could team up with Ottawa to support a broader western industrial corridor project.

“Money devoted to that project could go to building up West Coast port infrastructure, or to support northern British Columbia communities along the way.”

——————————
These are two provinces in the very initial talking stage in case the project is approved over a year from now. At least they are starting in a timely fashion, rather than after the fact.

In my opinion, talking now can only be beneficial to BC. After the project gets approved is not the best time to iron out some of the basic principles of negotiating the best deal for BC.

Remember, the feds are watching and they have the authority to force the situation.

I seem to think Brian usually says or does what’s popular but I am really proud that he boldly stated what seems obvious to most people.

When I have friends visiting from out of town, all are astonished by the pitiful roads in pg. I am curious as to how this plays with potential investors? I know if I was investing in a city, something as obvious as horrible roads would be a huge red flag to me about the city in general.

Kudos Mr. Skakun. Good to at least hear someone come out and pay attention to this nonsense.

Good to see Skakun make some announcements in a public forum. We need more of this type of action so we can see where Councillors stand on these issues.

The best way to do this is for us to get the requisite number of signatures on the Alternative Approval Process, and force this borrowing issue to a referendum. The referendum will force those in favour of more borrowing,. and more debt, to step out of the shadows, and be counted. We can then use this information when making voting decisions at the next election.

Some other options for fixing the roads, would be by taking a percentage of all additional revenue that the City receives, ie: gambling, gas money, money from fines, money from the sale of property, and have this percentage put into a road repair fund. As it is now this money goes into general revenue and then is dispersed to who knows where.

“The feds are watching”
A panda bear for every zoo Mr.Harper.

Federal gas money and provincial fines should ALL go into road MAINTENANCE in ADDITION to the money that is already allocated from taxes.

New City roads should come DCCs.

Time to have this debate at Council. Which Councillor dares to explore this and come with a notice of motion?

The same cost for pavement as the Province gets….. that sounds like the least the Province could do. Afterall, the companies producing this stuff no doubt still make money even at the rate they charge the Province.

As for the dike, sometimes you have to do things that are further down on the priority list because that money will go elsewhere if you don’t. Don’t forget in addition to the $3M borrowed by the City, $6M will come from the Province and the Feds. $9M in additional spending in City will mean jobs for workers/companies that operate here. That’s a good thing.

Remember PG Citizens, we are trying to grow the City not shrink it. So the more activity going on the better. Now we just have to figure out a better way to deal with those potholes!!

“BTW, we need both, proper protection against floods as well as drivable roads.”

That may be so, but we are confronted by a right-now priority issue (our pitiful bone jarring suspension busting roads) and flood protection from a POTENTIAL (once in 50 years)flooding threat.

Brian Skakun uses common sense (a very uncommon commodity these days) to arrive at the proper conclusion: If the city can borrow to fund the construction of such a dyke it can decide to borrow instead for the mnay times more urgent issue of proper streets!

Thank you Brian for having the cojones to point out the obvious instead of following like the herd of obedient sheep.

Funny thing about the Nechako flood! It was caused by Alcan. Maybe Alcan should pay for the dyke!

One of the biggest reasons why the pipeline should not go through is because of the way Enbrige handled the spill in the US. It’s not about how much money we get or how many jobs are created it’s about what will they do when there is a spill. And there will be a spill!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7V6iY2Qpk&feature=related

NoWay wrote: “Funny thing about the Nechako flood! It was caused by Alcan”

First, which flood? Spring Freshettes or ice jams?

Prove it.

“Thank you Brian for having the cojones to point out the obvious instead of following like the herd of obedient sheep. “

One thing Mr. Skakun has been very good at is paying lip service to things he thinks are popular with ‘the people’, and ‘the people’ eat it up with a spoon. Ask him if he’s refused the council pay raises that he spoke out against?

Talk is very cheap.

“(once in 50 years)flooding threat”

Come on now. So we had two floods in a row, a spring freshette and an ice jam.

So do do not really think that we will not have anymore floods for 100 years, do you?

What it means is that there is a 2% chance each year of a flood occuring. In addition, that is based on retroactive information. There is no accurate way of determining what new factors are coming in which will change that up or down each year.

So, the consequences of inaction in both cases should be looked at through a risk matrix.

As far as borrowing goes, in my opinion one should not get into the habit of borrowing for maintenance.

I was under the impression that under the Kinsley governance we discovered that we were borrowing for fixing potholes. There was a considerable lift in taxes to get us out of that financial hole. How are we doing with that? I have the imrpession we may be back into borrowing for that.

It should be relatively simple. Buy a new asset, maybe borrow to pay for it, but the maintenance costs of that asset go into the annual operating costs of that asset along with the financing charges.

Sounds to me that the way any property developer and operator does it is not the way the City does it. We are continually chasing our own tail, getting nowhere, and expending lots of time, energy, and money doing it.

So, the new police station as an example. The information of how much it will cost to finance is available.

BUT, do we know how much more it will cost to maintain/operate that building compared to the existing police station?

Someone might. Has that been shared with the rest of the crowd who are paying to live here?

Based on past situations, we will find out in future budget deliberations … well .. we need to collect another so many thousands of dollars because of the operations costs of the new building.

I do agree with Mr. Skakun, however this spring will be an interesting one. I’m thinking that with the snowpack in the mountains if they don’t do something we will have huge flooding proving the point that something needs to be done. Thanks Mr. Skakun for having the ba?s to speak up for the public.

If the way the city maintained the current RCMP building is any indication, the costs for the new building should be minimal. Ignore it for an extended period and then say “sorry NWR -we have to replace it.”

noisy, you’ve got it right in both of your comments. Whatever happened to the little girl’s idea of recycled plastic asphalt? Oh, sorry, it wasn’t someone important’s idea.
(We do it this way just because that’s the way we’ve always done it.Duh..uh.)

Gus, a dike will not stop the underground seepage of the high water. The raised road isn’t even going to stop it.

Captain America: I believe you. You should hear the astonished comments and questions from tourists too. Would any of you go to visit a town with roads in the shape that our are? I know I wouldn’t. Even in third world countries they have people throwing dirt in the holes until a proper fix can be made. Here? Huh, you’d slapped with a lawsuit if you tried that. Really makes sense, eh?

I guess someone needs to make a youtube video of our streets and have it go viral before the “City” will do anything about them. Look how quickly they got to work on Ospika last year, AFTER, we were given the unique distinction of having the worst street in B.C.!

Just for the record, I think the proper spelling to use here is “dike,” not “dyke,” which has some negative connotations.

This councilor is and has always been a loose cannon. His statements are full of errors, misinformation and other nonsense. I find it sad that he has kind of become the hero for the mediocre masses of PG, most of whom don’t have a clue about what goes into and or goes on behind the scenes of things, processes and procedures. His statements about ways to improve road maintenance demonstrate he doesn’t have any idea what and how the city crews operate already.

I don’t find the things that this councilor thinks and says interesting and I wish local news would stop using his nonsense to further purposes of their own.

Tourists in Prince George, must be lost, taken the wrong turn.

“Gus, a dike will not stop the underground seepage of the high water”

I am tired of posting that the way the work is done with a cutoff wall and mechanical drainage behind it will reduce the seepage considerably. We are hardly the only ones in this world with that problem. Rivers comming from mountains and buitl by receding glaciers have pretty much the same geology. Try to educate yourself a bit more, please.

If youy do not agree with it, I am glad that you credentials as an engineer or geologist allows you to do that with some technical knowledge of the matter.

“Whatever happened to the little girl’s idea of recycled plastic asphalt?”

That was not a new idea. Has been done elsewhwere. I thought a test strip was done. Do not know where it is and what the outcome is. May have improved traction based on previous tests done elsewhere if I recall correctly.

On thing to note is that the type of aggregate used in the asphalt mixture is one of the keys that determines the amount of moisture penetration. If the adhesion between the aggregate and the bitumen is wek, water will move through by capillary action first, then freeze, expand and crack. Thus, if the stone/sand aggregate is not properly washed there is improper adhesion between the binder and the aggregate. Plastics with unknown characteristics can cause a similar problem.

Give more……

The city did try the little girls idea of the recycled plastic asphalt. They repaved Gladstone with it a number of years ago.

I drive on Gladstone daily and for the amount of traffic Gladstone gets the recycled plastic asphalt is no better or worse than the traditional asphalt used elsewhere.

I am not a paving expert by any means but I can see that the hi ways are not falling to pieces by any means. I am beginning to think the substrate is the problem here. Perhaps we should be looking at removing all asphalt, repairing the substrate and then paving.

This is an article from 1998 titles “The use of recycled materials in highway construction”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3724/is_n2_v58/ai_16340226

Here is the section on recycled plastic.

“Plastics
Current research on the use of recycled plastics in highway construction is wide and varied. The use of virgin polyethylene as an additive to asphaltic concrete is not new; however, two new processes also use recycled plastic as an asphalt cement additive:
NOVOPHALT [R] and Polyphalt [R]. (1, 11, 12) These latter two processes both use recycled low-density polyethylene resin, which is generally obtained from plastic trash and sandwich bags. The recycled plastic is made into pellets and added to asphalt cement at a rate of 4 to 7 percent by weight of binder (0.25 percent to 0.50 percent by weight of total mix). (11, 12)
Michigan State University is looking into the use of recycled plastic in portland cement concrete. In this study, recycled high-density polyethylene (HDPE) was used to replace from 20 to 40 percent of fine aggregate by volume (7.5 to 15 percent by total volume) in a lightweight concrete mix. Compressive strengths were reduced when either level of HDPE was used. Overall flexural strengths remained fairly constant and the impact resistance of the concrete, which can be related to flexural toughness, increased.
Many agencies and private companies have been experimenting with the use of recycled plastic for items such as guardrail posts and block-outs, delineator posts, fence posts, noise barriers, sign posts, and snow poles.
* The Federal Highway Administration has approved the use of a guardrail offset block made of 100-percent recycled wood and plastic. (13) Although the product’s initial cost is currently higher than for conventional block material, it is believed that the post will resist damage and deterioration better than conventional materials, thereby resulting in reduced overall life-cycle cost.
* A Carson City, Nev. company is marketing a noise wall that contains recycled rubber tires and recycled plastics. (14) The wall’s shell is made of a pultruded thermosetting composite of polyester and glass, and the fill section is made of ground, recycled plastics and rubber tires.
* In May 1992, Alberta Transportation and Utilities initiated a research project on the use of recycled plastic fence and guardrail posts. (15) These posts were purchased and distributed to districts throughout the province as alternatives to wood posts. The cost of these plastic fences and guardrail posts was somewhat higher than for corresponding wood posts.”

BTW, the other “innovative” idea from UNBC of using wood as an admixture in concrete products is not exactly new either, as is shown in the above article. Wood has been used in concrete products as an aggregate to reduce the composite material weight for a very long time.

billyinpg …. I think local residential streets are generally okay when it comes to potholes in spite of the fact that they appear to have more expansion/contraction cracks than some other roads.

Highways are also generally okay. The old cariboo that connects HWY16 along the airport to HWY97 was in poor shape until they repaved it. Most well travelled highways are not allowed to deteriorate to that extent.

Highways do not seem to be deteriorating as much with potholes but mainly heaving in sections during thaw as well as rut formation. Both of those, in my opinion are more indicators of subsurface failure.

I think potholes are more an indication of surface failure. Highways and most city streets have different traffic profiles. I would look first at surface materials and possibile failures there. I wonder if Highways and the City use different aggregate sources as well as mix designs.

I would think that the City has had those conversations with Highways.

Councillors Dave Wilbur, Garth Frizzell, Murry Krause, Brian Skakun, Cameron Stolz, Albert Kohler, and Lyn Hall all voted in favour of going to the Alternate Approval process. Most cited the costs involved to support a referendum which it has been estimated would come in between $55 and $65 thousand dollars.

Councillors Dave Wilbur, Garth Frizzell, Murry Krause, Brian Skakun, Cameron Stolz, Albert Kohler, and Lyn Hall all voted in favour of going to the Alternate Approval process. Most cited the costs involved to support a referendum which it has been estimated would come in between $55 and $65 thousand dollars.

sorry from opinion250 feb-20th.. has Brian had a change of heart.

Councillors Dave Wilbur, Garth Frizzell, Murry Krause, Brian Skakun, Cameron Stolz, Albert Kohler, and Lyn Hall all voted in favour of going to the Alternate Approval process. Most cited the costs involved to support a referendum which it has been estimated would come in between $55 and $65 thousand dollars.

Welcome to the Canada Pot Hole Games. Bought to you by the city of Prince George, pot hole and crime capital of Canada.

Very good point, billm. Mr. Skakun says he’s not in favour of spending money on a dike, but does support the AAP for this issue. The AAP is all but a slam dunk for the City to get the money for the dike. Anyone else see a problem with this?

Gus: I think there is a difference of at least 2 or 3 inches between a hi-way and a residential street. The thickness of the asphalt I mean.

Sine Nomine wrote: “Just for the record, I think the proper spelling to use here is “dike,” not “dyke,” which has some negative connotations.”

Spelled either way it may have some negative connotations.

I think it is more a matter of British English versus USA English. Canada generally uses British English with some USA English whenever the need suits them …LOL

So, abridged versions of Oxford will use dyke and give the alternate spelling of dike and will include the several uses of the word no matter how it is spelled.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/search/?region=uk&q=dyke

The different uses of the words boot, fag, etc. come to mind which have different meanings in different Engish speaking countries.

Brian Skakun is the windsock of civic politics.

Yes, at least. The base may be the same thickness, around 8 inches unless soil conditions, such as in CH, dictate otherwise.

“Come on now. So we had two floods in a row, a spring freshette and an ice jam.

So do do not really think that we will not have anymore floods for 100 years, do you?”

Once RioTinto/Alcan has completed KemanoII there won’t be another flood for as long as the water runs through the new penstocks.

If they would dredge the river periodically there won’t be a need for another new levee at all.

Remember the Amphibex? They are busy clearing ice jams on rivers in Canada and the USA.

I’m going to sign the AAP petition on Monday!

Thanks Brian for voicing the obvious.

{Just one from the misinformed mass of easily mislead citizens of PG).

BTW: The issue of why the city can borrow money for mega projects and NOT for needed road maintenance is conveniently side stepped by everyone who posts wise comments here.

Way to go!

Brian for mayor!

We are canadian we all complain but nothing will ever happen

“Remember the Amphibex? They are busy clearing ice jams on rivers in Canada and the USA.”

Yes, because dredging does not work to prevent ice from forming and jambs from developing.

In order to clear the jamb, they work from the top, not the bottom.

An ice breaker would do the same job in a harbor or an ice logged strait in the Arctic. In that case they keep a navigation channel clear. In the case of dredges, they keep a navigation channel deep enough for ships.

We complain …. because of it we are among the top countries in the world. Keeps everyone on their toes …. ;-)

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ice-jams-beware-amphibex-looking-to-crack-some-on-red-river-in-manitoba-139765643.html

As the story says, the amphibex breaks up ice.

It can also be used with different heads to excavate or dredge with a pump attachment. However, it is most famous for use in ice break-ups.

Wow, is this called the gus forum? Good grief dude, get a life.

Regarding the dike:
1: Mechanical Drainge was built with River Rd upgrade.

2. Winter flood was caused by the silt washed away from the banks up by Miworth in the spring-summer flood. The River was so shallow behind Winton Global that ice built up.

Regarding the pot holes, years ago there was a bad pot hole near work that was always in need of repair. The City workers placed bricks in the hole and then paved. Problem solved, until the removed the pavement and took out the bricks, the reason some one in City Hall said that is not the way we do it, even though it worked. It works in Europe and the idea to do it came from one of the meetings that the Northern countries use to have.

The amphibex is used to break up ice, usually in slow moving water. It doesnt work worth a S..t in fast water and this was proven when it was in Prince George.

Stating that this machine was a success in Prince George has now become urban legend, however the fact is, is that when they broke loose some ice on the Nechako and caused a rush of water, they almost capsized, and the next day or so they were out of dodge never to be seen again. So lets put that goofy part of our history to bed.

The 2010 upgrade to River Road for a cost of $7 Million brought the road up to the 200 year flood level, in addition there were drains etc installed. The City stated that on completion this would minimize flooding. However once they got approval from the Fed/Prov Government for $5.4 Million for flood mitigation they decided that a dike was necessary. Hence the further expenditure $6.5 Million taxpayers money plus interest.

In a letter to City Council Jan 30/12 the City Manager, Utilities, Dave Dyer, made the following statement in regards to the dike program.

**The project also includes an approximately 1.7 kilometer groundwater cut-off wall to work in consjunction with a subdrain and pump chamber system that was installed in 2009. The cut-off wall will ASSIST in reducing the impact of groundwater flooding during flood events**

Considering that the dike system is proposed to run from the Cameron St. Bridge to the CN Rail bridge at the East end of 1st Avenue, a distance of 3.5 kilometers, and a cut-off wall of 1.7 kilometers, we would still have 1.8 kilometers of dike that would (or could) allow seepage.

This whole dike project is more about accessing Fed/Prov grant money and spending it, than it is about flood control.

Answer these questions. Why would CN Rail build a $20 Million dollar container terminal, and an 80,000 square foot warehouse, and why would the City of Prince George locate their Community Energy System at Lakeland Mills, in a flood zone??. If they were concerned about flooding surely they would have located somewhere else. Wouldnt they???

The fact that they are building in this area indicates to me that they have no concerns about flooding, or if they do these concerns will be reduced substaintially by spending $20 Million in tax dollars to protect their stupid projects.

If you want to take a ride on a road in Prince George that does not have any pot holes, and that is lighted on both side, and provides a bump free scenic drive, then go down River Road, Thats where you tax dollars are being spent.

Skakun is right when he states that the $7 Million spent in 2009/2010 is sufficient to reduce flooding at this time. We certainly do not need to spend another $11.6 Million plus interest, on this **Dead Horse** area.

Sign the petition and force the City to discuss this issue in the court of public opinion.

Karjai, the nature of your comment to attack a poster rather than provide anything meaningful to the discussion indicates that perhaps you need to reassess your life.

Karjai …. I know exactly what you mean …..

it’s Saturday night … nothin’ to do in this town …. to “get a life” I would have to move to a place where people do not cocoon as much …..on top of that I am afraid my wheels may get stuck in a pothole … and one never knows when the ice may jam the river downtown and we get flooded in at Kelly O’ somethin’ or other ….. ;-)

Gus, how can the Feds force the pipeline ?? Do you honestly think they will brIng in the armed forces? Because that is what it would take to force it on residents of BC . Our province is full of radical environmentalists don’t forget.

“most of whom don’t have a clue about what goes into and or goes on behind the scenes of things, processes and procedures” .. and you do? I can tell already you are one of the overpaid under achieving city workers. It amazes me how all you guys act like you know it all and noone else knows anything, yet the streets, infrastructure, snow plowing continually goes downhill. Must be everyone elses’ fault, huh?

When they redid the Domano – Highway 16 interchange they did two layers of asphalt, when they redid the Ospika Blvd they only did one layer from what I could tell.

Maybe paving an extra cm to 2 cm would make a difference? Not sure but standard thickness on main connectors may not be enough?

East of Queensway, down 2nd,3rd 4th tend to get somewhat wet during high water. So just how is that subwall going to work when water can come in from the other side. Considering the high snowpack this year up the Fraser drainage, water levels might get interesting depending on weather.

But on, says “I can tell already you are one of the overpaid under achieving city workers.” Guess he is po’ed that he could not get highered on.

Skakun has it right, we need better roads not a dike!!

Skakun is playing politics. He says Gateway is OK so long as they negotiate jobs and revenue like its a negotiation. that is not a position, but rather a negotiation. I think if someone is negotiation than they miss the point about the risk aspect of a project like Gateway. Skakun doesn’t get it.

Then his support of the AAP for the dike and then coming out in favor of good roads verse the dike.. whats with that. He supports borrowing the money for the dike through an anti democratic process, but then claims to be the man of the people pitting the dike against the roads… a politician with out principle?

I like Skakun, but I don’t like a politician that says whats most convenient at the time ignoring the core of issues.

Gus for a guy that wrote a lot, you make little sense. I suggest a drive down Penn Road, Boundary road, or Milwaulkee Way… its almost criminal. The pot holes are bigger than a small car and so big one can’t even drive around them… they sit in water holes so a driver can’t even see them under the water and even in a highway tractor they are big enough to do damage at posted speed limits. Probably the worst roads in BC by far. Ludicrous the city can’t at least fill them with some crush rock until they can pave. And Gus says the roads in PG are good? Come on now.

IMO Graymare made the most sensible comment.

As for the brick in the pot hole idea I couldn’t agree more. The bricks are solid and too big to pop out and therefore less hydrological action by the pounding of the traffic. The bricks on the pulpmill road traffic circle sit in water much of the year but it takes a lot of abuse and doesn’t pot hole… the bricks are starting to break up from the twisting of the B-trains around the traffic circle, but its not pot holing.

Having a base of crush rock is great for supporting a road surface and is the best option in problem spots IMO to allow water a place to run, but to kill a pot hole you need a large object like a big rock or brick. I’d like to see a fine aluminum mesh sand bag developed for spot checking deep pot holes… fill it with an aggregate and vibrate it flush to the road topped with sand as needed until a full repair takes place.

Once had a persistent large pot hole at Northwood a few years back. They would fix it and it would be back two weeks later because of water saturation issues. Finally I picked up some large 8″ sized crushed rock from PG Saw and dropped them in the hole.. drove back and forth over it a few times, then sprinkled some 3″ minus on it mixed with sand and drove back and forth over it a few times… the pot hole has never came back yet in over three years now. The big rocks supported the weight from pressurizing the hole, and the small rocks displaced the water preventing the hydrological nature, and the sand acted as the mortar keeping it all solid. Simple solution and problem solved… why it takes a crew of three and a active paving mill excuse is near classic bureaucratic failure based on flawed rules by pencil pushers IMO. Shame on PG city road crews to allow that kind of priority to happen… heads should roll IMO.

The province gets asphalt cheaper than the city? How much does the fellow that owns the plant pay??

Sometimes your better off to make your own. :-)

Palopu:”This whole dike project is more about accessing Fed/Prov grant money and spending it, than it is about flood control.”

The spending urge of the city on less urgent projects needs to be controlled more than any potential threats of floods.

Eagleone …. where did I say the roads in PG are good? Far from it.

I said the residential roads are generally good. Do you know the hierachy of the road system?

“I suggest a drive down Penn Road, Boundary road, or Milwaulkee Way”

Those are industrial roads.

Think man, think! It will give you a bit more credibility.

Residential Rd – those which most people’s driveways border on. In CH that would be streets such as Imperial, Brock, Trent, etc. Those are the ones which have the least potholes in the city. In some places, such as CH, they do suffer from seasonal heaving likely because they are sitting on clay and were not properly prepared with “improved” subsurface material brought in at construction time. In that old section they were not inspected by the City.

Collector – A road which gets more traffic since it “collects” the traffic coming from the residential streets. Depending on where they are located and the amount of traffic they get, there will be potholes forming on them.

Arterial – A road which picks up the collectors. High traffic volumes, greater number of heavy vehicles. These are the ones in the worst shape. In CH, Domano is the main arterial and shows it with the amnount of deterioration.

Highways – these gather the arterials as well as collectors in some cases. The highest traffic volumes and the greatest heavy vehicle traffic. These have been built to take heavier traffic and are also the responsibility of the province to take care of. Thus, they generally have few deterioration problems involving potholes. The main problem in my view is typically the development of ruts which increase hydroplaning probability.

And then there are the industrial roads in places such as the BCR, which is a private development and god knows what standards they used to build the roads in the first place and the standards they and the City use to maintain them.

I know from my past experience that in some paved parking lots one would not know they are paved, they are so thick with road dust/gravel from all the truck traffic.

“the bricks are starting to break up from the twisting of the B-trains around the traffic circle, but its not pot holing”

Wait a couple of years. Use the standard PG approach, fix it when it gets really bad. When the bricks start to disloge, maybe we can start calling it a hole of some kind or other. ;-)

What you are actually observing is a standard of work which is inadequate for the use to which it was known to be put.

When that happens with an item that you buy from a store, you bring it back and get a refund.

The problem is, we are the ones who own that road structure. We are the ones who have to pay to build it in the first place and we are the ones who have to pay to fix it.

It appears to me that the life cycle cost of some of the infrastructure we build in PG may be higher than that in other communities. Then again, maybe not.

Does someone, somewhere know? Does someone, somewhere care?

Does it matter what type of road a pot hole is in, a pot hole is a pot hole.

Grinding off the top layer does not solve the problem as the new top layer does not make a good bond with the lower bottom layer. The two layers, work, causing them to separate, crack, water then gets between the layers. In winter this water freezes causing more cracking then with hydraulic pressure from tires the pavement disintegrates.

When the ares where the road is completely rebuilt from road bed up, the pavement lasts longer though more costly. Just replacing the top layer in this climate is just false economy. Look at Domano where only the top layer was replaced only last year, it is disintegrating already.

this is what brick roads can look like if not properly maintained – New York
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-BA944_YELLOW_G_20110530175753.jpg

There is no magic bullet to get around good quality initial construction and timely, quality, preventative maintenance.

A discussion board about Edmonton roads, just so that we know we are not alone … :-;

Oh, just to remind you, it is the capital of the richest province in Canada.

http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=390115

If the new paving is breaking up already on Domano the city should have a claim against the paving contractor. Does the city ever do any followup on the quality of the work?

If properly oiled between layers and asphalt hot enough there will be a certain amount of bondage. Last summer did not have the best weather for paving, so if it was laid in less than ideal conditions, it could account for the early failure.

“Does it matter what type of road a pot hole is in, a pot hole is a pot hole”

Nope. Either I have a writing problem or people have a reading problem, or maybe both.

From what I can tell driving around town, there are very few potholes in the lowest traffic carrying streets – residential.

There are also very few potholes in the highest traffic streets – highways.

It is in the in between ones, the Ospikas, Tabors, Foothills, 5th, 15th, Domanos, etc of this City where the problem lies.

BTW, the method of repaving road surfaces is almost the same with highways and the City. The exception is that the City removes a layer and then returns a few days or even a week or two later to resurface.

Highways does it in one production line process – the surface of the road is heated and then scarified; a screed situated at the rear of the machine reprofiles the surface; the surface is then immediately covered with hot rolled asphalt.

As you say, that is likely part of the problem. The type of mix may also contribute.

I have had the opportunity to get to know Brian and I can say he really is a good guy.

That BS a couple years back was one thing he did not handle the best but all in all Brian is PG’s biggest friend at this point.

Many of the others are good but they are not willing to stand up and speak their mind.