How long do you think it would take Transport Canada (and every other regulatory body in the world for that matter), to start grounding fleets of specific aircraft, if two of them exploded in mid-air without knowing what caused it? What if Transport Canada had indications, through previous safety inspections and employee concerns, that there were some potential risks noted in regards to the production run that those jets came from?

Would Mrs. Arcand board a flight on one of those same jets if the airlines were told to just keep on operating until the cause was found?

I would suggest that the “common sense” thing to do on this one is pretty clear, it’s just not palatable.

She is correct about the injection of green wood in the mills. Not entirely sure about Lakeland though, as they do mill primarily pine !

If this were in Fort Mac the whole industry would be shut down.

“people need to be protected but they still need jobs” I guess you can put a price on human life. JMHO

“They have no idea, and for people to speculate it’s about beetle wood…..we’ve been milling beetle wood for ten years, why now all of a sudden?”

It is very disconcerting to find out that a person who was an employee of the BC Forest Safety Council until recently thinks that way about safety versus jobs. So how much is one life worth? 2? 4? Several more life-altering injuries?

Mills are not shutting down. Yes, some of the ones who do not think that shutting down a mill for a few days is extreme are shutting them down during the inspections and clean-ups.

I think Ms Arcand a liability to any worker who values his or her life. I wonder what the chair of the CILA Board thinks about her approach to safety.

It appears we do not know what caused the fires/explosions. In fact, as a member of the public, I do not even know whether there was an explosion, although evidence from people in town who heard and felt something leads us to think that there was an explosion.

Sawdust is a well established hazard whether or not it is the cause of these two incidents. Cleanup should therefore be rigorously enforced.

http://www.timescolonist.com/Sawdust+explosions+nothing+mills/6533275/story.html

Ms Arcand is in a position to ask a few questions before she speaks in public as a representative of the CILA. She appears not to have done that.

In fact, all she has to do is read a bit and she might have run across this article from three days ago.

http://www.timescolonist.com/Sawdust+explosions+nothing+mills/6533275/story.html

The headline reads: “Sawdust explosions nothing new for B.C. mills.”

It goes on:

“Five explosions since 2009 connected to sawdust at three different wood manufacturing plants in B.C. didn’t cause any injuries.”

“Knowledge of the earlier explosions means it is more important than ever to determine the causes of the two latest deadly explosions ..”

“Given what’s happened, we have to conclude we should have done more . . . everybody in the industry,” said Everitt Friday, after he was told of the previous blasts.”

So, we have Arcand’s approach and we have Everitt’s approach …. let me see, Arcand, Everitt … Arcand, Everitt ….

As a mill worker, whose jusgement would I trust when I go back to work?

“I mean the mills do a major clean-up every weekend and blow out all of the dust.”

They do? The first crews that are cutback are the clean up crews. They blow down all the beams every weekend? You are living in la la land. Sawmills are all about Mill Nets. Lower their costs so they can turn a profit. Cut back here and cut back their run shifts back to back and on weekends, not much time to do clean up.

A list of previous explosions compiled from news reports by the Vancouver Sun found:

– An explosion in January 2011 at Tolko’s Soda Creek sawmill in Williams Lake was caused by dust in one of the mill’s motor control centres. It created a fire in the walls that was difficult to put out, said the Williams Lake fire department.

– An explosion in April of 2011 at Pinnacle Pellet in Armstrong caused a fire that quickly spread into the basement and into the attic.

– The company also experienced an explosion at its Williams Lake plant in August 2009. That explosion was caused by a combination of air, dust and a spark, said the company.

– An explosion caused extensive damage at Pacific Bioenergy’s pellet plant in Prince George in Dec. 2010, where dust was cited as a factor ignited by a spark.

– That incident followed back-to-back explosions that rocked the pellet plant in March 2008.

– These incidents don’t include a small explosion already reported that took place at Babine Forest Products (the mill that exploded last January) in February 2011, that was fed by unusually dry sawdust, according to a B.C. Safety Authority report.

– There are also earlier reports of explosions linked to dust, including at Canfor’s Chetwynd mill in 2005, where work on a shutdown burner created a cloud of dust that was ignited by cutting torches. At least one worker was injured and taken to hospital.

– Once his memory was jogged, Everitt acknowledged there have been explosions in the past at medium density fibreboard plants, known for their dust problems, including at West Fraser’s WestPine plant in Quesnel.

As billposer said, sawdust is a well established hazard. In fact, any fine airborne particles are. The surface area presented by them to an ignition source is huge, to say the least.

Maybe one of these days WorkSafeBC will share the results they get/got when they put dust explosion into their database.

A coroner’s inquiry might be required to get independent access to that.

“The mills clean up al the sawdust on the weekend”.
I don’t know what she has been smoking but maybe a trip through a sawmill come Monday morning might just put that illusion to rest.
More a case of these people not wanting to admit what is staring them in the face.

There should of been one more dust explosion mentioned in the Vancouver Sun report but it wasn’t reported to Worksafe BC at the time of the explosion. It happened at the Rustad site before it was indefinately shutdown. The company didn’t call Worksafe BC to report it. I wonder why?
Management kept saying they did their own investigation, a few people kept pushing for the report of that investigation. Ultimately they said they didn’t do a proper investigation.
Worksafe was called to the site months after the explosion so that their was a record of the incident. Worksafes report said that the mill should of been shutdown at the time of the explosion so the cause could be investigated. They also put conditions on the report that if the mill ever started back up the company would have to deal with the dust in that building so that this couldn’t happen again.

To prevent this from ever happening again the mills would have to spend millions on explosion proof equipment like they use in the petroleum industry.

In the end if the employees feel unsafe because of dust in the air/accumilation they could report it to the company that provides the fire insurance. That should get someone to jump!

The CILA, Central Interior LOGGERS Association, clearly MaryAnne Arcand wants the loggers that she represents to keep working uninterupted.
The CILA does not care in the slightest whether there is a danger to workers that they do not represent. Just get back in those mills and consume logs so the CILA membership (loggers) can continue harvesting uninterupted. Obviously MaryAnne Arcand and the CILA think this problem is trivial.

Arcand just who do you talk to? Sure isen’t the workers, afraid to get your hands dirty?

With this history of explosions just what have the unions done? Not much it seems.

Arcand there was the first explosion followed by the main explosion, that is the signature of a dust explosion.

As NMG wrote whole fleets of aircraft have been grounded when they had a problem.

The thing to also keep in mind is that the CILA is a contractors’ association, not a workers association.

Of course, there are lots of single and small group contractors who actually work as drivers and even as harvesters, so they are in dangerous situatioans and not just sitting in offices and occasionally driving to work sites.

I have not heard anything from COFI yet. Does anyone know whether they have taken a position on this?

I have seen the amazing power of a dust explosion that happened at the local pellet plant. One of the pieces of equipment involved was a 10′ diameter steel cyclone. The flat top was welded to the cone portion all the way around, yet the explosion ripped the top completely off blowing it approximately 20 feet in the air and 30 feet to the side. It landed on the roof of the plant.

Keep in mind that the top of the cyclone weighed about 1500 pounds. There was an inspection door on top of the cyclone that was held in place by welded hinges. These welds were also torn free and the 22 pound inspection door was found a quarter of a mile away. Imagine the power it takes to throw a 22 lb object that far AFTER ripping the welded hinges loose.

Dust explosions are nothing to mess with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg7mLSG-Yws

I recommend viewing the youtube link to the Dust Explosion at Imperial Sugar four years ago, especially Ms Arcand.

It gives a good overview of how industrial dust explosions happen, including the complacent attitudes of all concerned – management, workers (who can and should leave unsafe work situations but find it difficult to do so for some obvious reasons), authorities having jusrisdiction.

As the trees try to fend off the pine beetle attacks they use every chemical weapon in their arsenal. Could it be possible that some of these VOC’s become exposed to the air as remaining bark is removed and can then vaporize? Maybe more dangerous than dry sawdust alone?

The fire chief mentioned in one interview the he had seen a security cam video showing the initial explosion. Anyone know if this is on you-tube or elsewhere?

Mary Anne should keep her comments limited to her CILA members, and there is none of them working in a Sawmill. The CEO’s of Sawmills would not make false statements such as “if its dust, I mean the mills do a major clean-up every weekend and blow out all of the dust.
Sorry MaryAnne, the Sawmill floor is along ways from the forest, in fact a different world! Are there any CILA members that have to wear a dust mask when they go to work??

I think Mary Anne is correct in her caution. I honestly do not believe the Lakeland initial explosion was the result of saw dust. Its one of the cleanest mills in the country with all the latest technology and a major upgrade just completed only months ago.

I have no doubt once you have an explosion or major ignition source that the sawdust is going to contribute to a much larger explosion and rampant fire. That is the nature of the product you are dealing with.

A pellet plant scenario is totally different than a sawmill. In a pellet plant they get explosions because they have a ready ignition source and they are dealing with fine dust in contained areas.

Rustads and Babine were IMO likely ignited by electrical failure in contained areas where clean up maintenance was lacking. So sawdust can share the blame, but not be the sole catalyst. Sawdust does not spontaneously combust without an ignition source. I don’t think the Lakeland explosion is related at all to those other two examples. If we just assume its sawdust than do we really solve the potential for future problems?

My theory is a welding gas leak set off a series of events that lead to the explosion and fire. If that is the case then it would benefit everyone in the forestry sector to know. Maybe the mill had nothing to do with what happened? Its possible.

Someone has to call the caution on people speculating group think, and it might as well be Mary Anne, wrong or right she may be.

.

I had wondered about a couple of the same issues Ms. Arcand raises. Beetle wood has been milled for many years in the local mills, at least 10 years. Remember when Blue Pine came out? That was at least 10 years ago and a direct result of pine beetle infestation.
Also, I watched the Imperial Sugar video. That explosion would not have happened had the dust not been built up in a CONFINED space. Once the ducts were plugged there was combustion. How there could there have been enough wood dust in a CONFINED space to cause COMBUSTION/explosion?
People talk about how messy the mills are, how the hours of the clean-up crews have been cut, etc. I don’t know about you, but if I was working in a sawmill, and I saw a lot of wood dust building up, I would want to make sure that was cleaned up, for my own safety. Do people really think the fine workers of Lakeland would have allowed for this kind of dangerous situation? Of course not! Even if there is some special property to beetle-killed wood, workers would still not allow piles of it to build up around the mill because it would endanger them – not by exploding, but because it serves as an excellent fuel.

Eagleone have you ever been in or worked in sawmill that was running beetle killed wood? You can’t see across the mill! Sure the dust has to be ignited from a spark of some sort and that’s the point. Gas fumes don’t ignite by themselves either but add a spark in the right conditions and you get a boom.

If you want to speculate then ask yourself this. If there wasn’t any dust in the air would the welding gas leak cause your big boom? What ignited the welding gas? Acetylene is pretty stinky yet we haven’t heard any reports of anyone smelling gas? So say what you like eagleone in the end if there wasn’t any dust in the air there wouldn’t of been a boom.

Even brand new electrical equipment arcs and sparks under normal conditions. I guess that is why they make explosion proof equipment.

This happened on an afternoon shift after they ran a dayshift. Sure the mill would of been cleaned up on the weekend but running one shift of that beetle crap wood would add enough fuel to be a problem if a fire started. Did they clean up between shifts or do they run back to back shifts like everyone else?

So think about this speculation. Maybe they were shutdown for a break or a saw change and someone took an airhose to the machine to blow it down. Or maybe it was a break down. There is extra dust in the air because of the blow down and someone strikes an arc with a welding rod or sparks up a torch! A more likely scenario than an acetylene leak.

There are more dust explosions in the USA from sawdust than any other single type of dust. The information is from a couple of decades ago when those figures were mnade public. Not all of them involve entire plants.

Those explosions happened in plants that probably used some killed timber that was drier than live tree cut timber, probably a standard process for some or even many sawmills.

The LEL (lower explosion limit) of a substance is the ratio of fuel to air and is dependant on a number of things such as particle materials, size and concentration.

I have no doubt that the LEL of beetle killed wood is different for that for logs that still have a greater water content.

I understand that the preferred margin of safety is a ratio of fuel to air less than 20% of the LEL.

So, the question I have is, do plants have the data on LEL levels for “normal” timber going through sawmills and for the more dominant beetle killed wood?

If they do, do they measure the particulate content of the ambient air in the mills, especially in local concentrations at high risk process locations to ensure that they are keeping that 20% or higher margin for safety?

I suspect they are not. I suspect that inspectors, workers, plant managers and owners are eyeballing the whole thing based on the nature of the types of reports that have been brought to the surface as a result of these incidents.

I would love it if someone could tell me I am wrong, and that they do have monitors in the plants and that these are hooked up to alarm systems the same as rate of heat rise detectors or ionization detectors, for instance.

If that were the case, then I would know that all parties concerned did what they could and that an error occurred somewhere in the system.

Staying with that theme gus, do you know if the mills or WorkSafeBC actually employ people who could speak to these issues in an “intelligent” manner? By “intelligent”, I mean in a truly scientific manner because it strikes as though that is what is missing in this discussion thus far.

I was speaking with a colleague at work about the issue of dust explosions the other day and this fellow actually has a PhD in science and was a practising scientist at one point in his life. As he spoke, it became clearly obvious that engaging some people with practical knowledge about how all this works, how things could happen, potential causes for the explosions, etc., would be highly beneficial to the process we are now engaged in.

When I was at Rustads all maintenance and some production employees took fire fighting training. They would bring a fellow in to talk about the fire triangle and we would all get a chance to put out a diesel fire with a fire extinguisher. We would get hydrant training, hook up fire hoses of all sizes and get some hands on experience so we weren’t running around like chickens with our heads cut off in the event of a fire.

Part of that training was the demonstration of a small dust explosion. The trainer hand some training tools which inclued a box with a piece of glass on the front with a bbq igniter in it with a small hole in the top. He would sprinkle house hold cooking flour into the opening while clicking the bbq igniter. At the right concentration the flour would ignite into a small fire ball. It was a quick poof!

The science of fire is quite simple. Fuel Oxygen and Heat. The three sides of the fire triangle, remove any one of the sides of the fire triangle and the fire goes out.

I guess what I was getting at NoWay is that science may be able to tell us why the explosions occurred in those particular instances, whereas they may not have occurred in others.

I agree that the three contributors are relatively straight forward, but there are also countless numbers of variables that could occur. Like your cooking flour example, perhaps there are certain concentrations of dust when combined with other variables, that makes the situation inherently unstable so that all that is required is an ignition source to cause it to go up. Perhaps the actual chemical composition of the dust is different with the pine beetle wood and this is a contributing factor. Perhaps the various moisture content found within the dust can help us understand when the risk for an explosion is elevated and thus we could have different precautionary procedures depending on the types of wood being milled.

I just suspect there is more we could do to understand the dynamics of these particular risks and deal with them in a more structured and informed manner.