Woohoo!! Now maybe they can focus on paving some roads.

After watching Stolz at council meting it is abundantly clear he just doesn’t understand the people did not want the money borrowed to build a dike.
According to Stolz the people signed the AAP because they believed the money would go to roads instead of the dike, didn’t understand the engineers report on the dike or thought dredging the river would solve the problem.
Not once did he admit he understood the public is tired of council using the AAP back door approach to funding projects and the public did not want the money borrowed for this project.
This is the guy who said if the AAP is one vote short the project goes ahead. Remember this next election.

I voted against the dike because I have concerns that it would not stop the water during the next high water event. The last time we had the ice jam on the rivers (2007) the high water never breached the Pulp Mill Road to P.G. & Intercon Mills. But- several homes on the north side of the road flooded out. In one home the water pressure was so much below the cement floor that it pushed up the floor in big broken slabs. This water did not go over the road (which is a form of dike), it came up through the ground as the water table rose.

“…he says the City should have gone to the Government and asked for more time.”

Ask for ALL the money to come from government! Don’t ask for time! Ask for money!

If we waste money on a dike, let it be the government’s money! Don’t waste OUR money, enough already!

Where do you think the government gets money from? Unreal.

Most hydrology experts would agree that the flooding on River Road is from water pressure coming up from the ground. Thus one would dredge the river to some depth acrss to the east side of the Fraser. Can someone tell me whats wrong with this picture? Theres got to be some value in a million yards of gravel…

imo the dike issue has opened my eyes as to who i will not vote for next time around, most existing council members. voters please remember this at the next election.

“Where do you think the government gets money from? Unreal.”

Nothing unreal about that! I already pay federal income taxes, sales taxes, provincial income taxes, home owner taxes, etc. Corporations pay taxes.

Governments have infrastructure budgets, for roads and dikes, for instance!

Take the money from all those federal and provincial taxes already being collected (including from corporations) to pay for the dike! The last thing I need is to have even MORE taxes added to my home owner taxes by the city, taxes which are already increasing by more than the rate of inflation!

That’s what I would call UNREAL!

Awesome work everyone. Next up will be this PAC so you all can go watch ballet. We will defeat that useless waste of money too. As for stolz he should be removed from council for ignoring the taxpayers. He surely will be booted next election.

Before the CIty asks to borrow money again which is required to partner with money coming from senior governments, the City needs to know that they can get the approval from the citizens to borrow that money.

I suspect the feds and province will give the city another chance at money awards, but would think that if that fails again, they will make getting citizen support first a prerequisite. Then again, they are government also, so who knows how well they are organized for these requests.

The City did a very poor job of explaining why the dike is needed and exploring alternatives. One cannot expect the average voter to read the consultant reports on such matters. They need a summary that is intended for the generl public and a summary that does not BS anyone. I have seen far too many such summaries that are not balanced reporting out of the findings and recommendations.

There is a huge learning curve here for all concerned, starting with Administration first but in tandem with Council. After that is done, and conveyed to the public there is a huge learningg curve of building trust that has to occur.

At the moment, with people like Stolz on Council, I have no faith.

It is time for the Mayor to build that team that she spoke about during her campaign. She has a tough road ahead. Perhaps she needs to start by bringing in a few new people to advise her.

In a time when the taxpayer wasn’t already stretched to the limit, this might have been a good idea. But, since they wasted so much money, our other infrastructure is crumbling, and the economy is still in recovery, spending this much money on something we have done fairly well without for a relatively small gain, is lunacy. Good job to all who blocked this.

“Awesome work everyone. Next up will be this PAC so you all can go watch ballet. We will defeat that useless waste of money too. As for stolz he should be removed from council for ignoring the taxpayers. He surely will be booted next election.”

I didn’t think I would ever say this but I actually agree with mattyc!

It’s too bad the people couldn’t have gotten together to stop the new cop shop, or the new administration building, or…

You would really wonder why a company link Brink would build on land between River road and the Nechako river knowing full well that flooding could occur.
Beyond the 3.6 million the city was trying to borrow there is also the 2.5 million that as coming out of the reserve fund for the dike. Does the defeat of the dike mean the 2.5 million remains in the reserve fund or has the city already spent the 2.5 million.
Maybe Gus knows or can find out.

“Council was unanimous in saying it would not support moving to a referendum in the wake of the successful Alternate Approval Process”

“In fact, he suggests the City ask for that extra time to allow for a referendum”

Does Everitt have the proverbial 30 second memory of a goldfish?

@mattyc – Everyone with credibility who is a proponent of a PAC has expected from the beginning that any borrowing would go to a referendum rather than an AAP.

In fact, they look forward to making their case, and have done a good deal of work to build a compelling business case, even for those who DON’T go “watch ballet”, (there are many, many more uses than ballet, btw – it’s been identified in the Webb report).

Going to a referendum to achieve significant borrowing for major public projects is the right thing to do, regardless of the AAP available.

It’s too bad neither Canada Winter Games nor the new police station had to get widespread electoral permission to justify their expenditures.

Please keep in mind a good number of taxpayers don’t go swimming but pay for swimming pools; don’t play hockey but pay for hockey rinks; don’t have children but pay for schools. In fact, just about everything the public pays for “benefits” a minority of people. But all these services is what makes a vibrant, economically sustainable community.

And that includes a multi-use Performing Art Centre.

There are enough larger size business down there that if they all chipped in they could get their dyke.Example is ESSO which is making us pay everyday and making record profits.

The new cop shop, administration building, Winter games… should not have gone ahead. When our crumbling infastructure including roads and side walks have been completed we could have a city that people would like to come back to or even move to. This is not pie in the sky stuff but if we keep going on the same path it will be.

Bohemian, you are sounding like Stolz. No matter on what side you or anyone else is on, you have to start looking at the political environment from the peanut gallery point of view, not the producers of the show.

The peanut gallery rules at the moment. If the producers put together a show they don’t like, they have learned how to get it off the air.

A new page has been turned. People have smelled blood and they are ready to take on the next project that is going to go either an AAP or referendum group.

You have to write another script now.

A $55 million dollar AAP or referendum on a new fancier PAC won’t pass, not in this financially stressed environment with road maintenance falling behind by another $3.5 million each and every year, water and sewer systems needing extensive overhauls and the population being stagnant for many years now.

There are already some performing arts venues in town, one of them has 800 seats.
Those will have to suffice for a few years more until the all-knowing gurus get the finances back on track with a lot of mea culpa and some new attitudes.

Perhaps a new script would be taking over Vanier Hall from the School District so it can actually function as a performance space for the community and for touring shows. With costs of building a theatre and shop for the school so they could move out and adding renovations to Vanier in terms of fly gallery, loading bay, lobby and washrooms, and soundproofing, perhaps $8 to $10 million.

But if it were even just $100,000 many on this site would think it was too much…

Another script would be move to Nanaimo…

Prince George …..

There is a lot of public awareness raising that has to happen in this community as well as the attitude change at City Hall that you speka of and I totally agree with you on.

The fact is, other communities that we are trying to compare us to have higher.

Isn’t it odd that prior to the ice jamb flood that occured here due to the frazzle ice running aground on the shallow Nechako river bottom, there was never any thought given to diking or dredging. But now some people with connections believe diking is a necessity.

I am very glad to see that they have dropped this idea. Regardless of whether a dike is a good idea or not, we simply don’t have the money for it right now. Let’s make do with what we’ve got and what we’ve always managed with, until such time as we are flush with money again (yeah, right) and then options could be revisited. The same goes for the PAC. We have spaces already, lots of them, so let’s use them and make do while we tackle the real problems we have in this community. PAC is a WANT, while roads, garbage collection and functioning street lights are a NEED. Most children learn at some point that there is a difference between wants and needs; let’s hope that council can also learn this lesson.

computer glitch ….. never the operator’s fault, right?? …LOL

continuing the above ….

The fact is, other communities that we are trying to compare us to have higher taxes than we do. The probelm is, that those people who try to explain that, including me every now and then, are doing a poor job of it to the extent that those who are not willing to open their minds simply cannot take in the information.

What I find os strange about that is that this city has one of the highest disposalble incomes in BC, far higher than comparative cities such as Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Nanaimo, Kamloops and Kelowna.

So, for me, that become an almost insurmountable challenge. We end up reaching for the moon on a pauper’s budget when that does not have to be the case.

Then, we do not understand the projects we are talking about.

For instance, we use the figures that are convenient to tell “our” individual stories. $50m is not the figure for the PAC that this city has to come up with. Never has been, never will be (oh, wait …. and wait … and wait … and yes, of course, it eventually will be)

In fact, what the City will have to put into it will be equal or less than the amount that this City is putting into the Kin I renovation. Like the Kin I, it will not only be used for the primary function, but will also enhance our ability to draw larger conventions here. For some reason or other neither the City nor the PAC group promotes that or has done any real studies on that.

But, all that is moot now, in my opinion. As I wrote to bohemian, this is a new time. Let us see how those in a leadership role in this city will handle that. I suspect it will take some time for it to sink in. Some will never get it and will continue to send this City deeper and deeper into a dysfunctional governance spiral.

to the sarahsmith70s ofthis site and this city……

One person’s want is another person’s need. We are not all created the same. One of the first things one has to learn when they live in a community. Actually, it is one of those things that many learn in the sandbox … ;-)

The mayor, council and administration have been given a “time out” by the taxpayers. Hopefully they will take the time “in their room” to rethink some of the choices made and how things could have been done differently.

I do not think they will be getting the credit cards back any time soon. Any AAP put forward before the basics needs are addressed is destined for failure whether it be a PAC or Vanier Hall modifications.

One can only hope the the $630K that is being spent this year to implement a CMMS program will help them get a handle on things.

BTW CMMS=computer maintenance management system

So what is wrong with the playhouse?

lonesome sparrow wrote:

“I do not think they will be getting the credit cards back any time soon. Any AAP put forward before the basics needs are addressed is destined for failure”

I think you might be surprised to know how much they can spend and what they can spend it on without going to the people.

It would have been interesting to see how well the group that managed to defeat the City’s proposal to borrow money for the dike project would have done to defeat the AAP in place for the borrowing required fot the RCMP station. I suspect they may not have been able to get the minimum number, most certainly not such an overwhelming number.

Seamutt …. if you have to ask that question it show that you and many others do not understand the whole issue.

THAT is the problem with several of these projects. Until the City as well as the special interest groups involved get that simple concept and start providing better information to at least the “undecided” group in the community, there will continue to be failures of getting support.

Seamutt …. here is a question that needs to be asked.

Why does the City continue to give the TNW over $100,000 per year when they could easily be using the Playhouse and providing an income to the CIty to offset the $100,000+ ?

There are a lot of things that do not make sense. A 10% increase in ticket prices would still make it a good buy and considerably reduce the need for a subsidy from the taxpayers.

So, TNW is doing something right because they have been successful for 4 years to effectively double the City subsidy they had been receiving.

@ gus “what they can spend it on”

Looking at the longer term plans for the city I see that they can have such ridiculous things such as a golf cart and segway for use by artists in the CN center(2016 unfunded)in the works. More like Andy Beesley cruising his domain.

I also question fully funding $100k this year for boulevard irrigation systems when by their own admission are spending 50% of what is required to maintain roads. These flat green smooth boulevards may soon have tire tracks on them.

The city let the current RCMP building get in such poor repair that replacement was the most viable option. I understand that the city’s hand could have been forced into providing a facility that met the needs of the force. The palace is a little over the top though.

Misquoted cost of CMMS, is actually $935k from computer reserve fund. Boy those IT guys must have some pictures of someone in a compromising position:)

gus – I believe TNW pays $1 a year for use of the facility, a donation in kind from the Novaks. They need the space year round for how they operate – building and storing sets, rehearsing, etc. This would not work for the Playhouse, which is used by different groups throughout the year.

If TNW were to move to playhouse for shows, they would still need construction, storage and rehearsal space, as well as administrative offices.

And for the record, the Cougars receive a much larger “subsidy” from the community than does TNW – it’s called CN centre (thought they do pay rent). Professional sports teams receive massive subsidies from the community supplying the capital cost of their venues. If the venues made money, they’d be privately owned, which they are not in the vast majority of instances.

“He says the City hired the best experts possible, and the experts say dredging won’t work.”

Who were these experts?

The AAP for the Police Station was a good training ground for the AAP on the Dike, and the Dike AAP was an excellent training ground for future AAP’s. The Police station garnered 1100 signatures, far short of the 5000 or so that was required.

What we need is for the City, to ensure that people are fully aware of what the project entails, why it is needed, and what the real costs of the program will be, which should include staffing, and maintenance, and interest costs.

We had a so called business plan put forward by locals for the Northern Sport Centre. The plan stated that the facility would generate $900,000.00 per year, and costs would be approx the same. So no additional costs to taxpayers.

What actually happened, is the facility generates $400,000.00 per year (more or less) and there is a shortfall in revenue of $600,000.00 per year. $300,000.00 is paid by the University, and $300,000.00 is paid for by the City. The City will pay this amount (as I understand it) for 30 years. So its pretty obvious that there are some problems with the business plan.

The Airport Runway expansion is basically the same. A $36 Million dollar expenditure, and we were to start receiving planes in the fall of 2007. Five years later and still no planes. In addition I would defy anyone in Prince George to make a definitive statement as to when we could expect some.

The Police Station is being built on borrowed money. ie; $38,000,000.00 over 20years. This is a horrendus cost to taxpayers, and very little on no effort was put into trying to find alternatives to this boondoogle.

The Community Energy System at best can be considered a bloody joke. It cost somewhere around $17 Million dollars to heat buildings with hot water, and reduce fine particulates in the air. The methodology on this project could at best be referred to as Voo Doo economics. None of the projections could stand up under the light of day and be defended. In fact now that the City has lost it source of hot water this whole venture is going to cost significanly more than originally planned, and of course as long as they use the gas plant at second and George St there will be no significant reduction in particulates. Nor will there be any reduction in trucking.

Horizen Air flights Prince George to Seattle was a complete bust, and cost taxpayers $250,000.00. The office that was opened in Vancouver so visitors could drop in and discuss Pr George was closed after the second year. Cost $140,000.00

The Cougar Franchise while good for the first five or six years, then went South. Having the Cougers at the CN Centre costs taxpayers approx $60,000.00 per year. How long will you continue to provide WHL Hockey to an average of 1200 fans per game??

The PAC will be funded in part by the Feds, Province, probably some private money, and then of course the tax payers of Prince George. Im sure the business plan will show this to be a venture that will benefit the whole City at no extra cost. Dont bet on it.

There are many more ventures taken by the City that ended up costing us big money, in fact to many to mention.

The next will be the infamous Wood Innovation Building. Ten stores of Cross laminated Timbers. Basically a copy cat edition of buildings already built in other Countries. This building will be referred to as the **Tower of Babylon** and we will be able to go to the 10th floor and watch the City traffic dodging around the pot holes.

Previous administrations at City Hall have basically caused this City to go broke. The best we can do is maintain the status quo for a short time, however if we do not come up with a workable plan for our roads, sewer, and water, we are in for a rough ride.

Its time to forget the costly and inefficient **feel good** projects, and get down to basics.

As others have mentioned here, and around town the buzz is evident: Councilor Stolz, look for a second job next time round as it will not be on Council. Give the taxpaying citizens more credit please – or indeed, any credit. By far the majority understood that signing the petition did NOT equal instant funding for roads. Get out and about outside of your own circle and get the clear picture. Better, yet, speak to some of your fellow Council members.. They got it.

Palopu forgot to give us a rundown on the costs of the Canada Winter Games. I’d be interested in his take. I think he’s right on the money.

Resident: “You would really wonder why a company link Brink would build on land between River road and the Nechako river knowing full well that flooding could occur.”
Actually, the building you speak of was built in about 1980, and provided leased space to various entities until Mr. Brink took it over a few years ago. Maybe Mr. Brink built it back then, I don’t know. But you raise a good point, why would anyone build along that side of the river knowing the history of flooding?
One answer may be that serious flooding of the Nechako in Prince George rarely occurs anymore.
metalman.

The Canada Winter Games will cost Pr George Taxpayers at the very minimum $15 Million dollars. I suspect it will be more.

Statistically the people who will make money will be Restaurants, Bars, and Hotels. The people who will lose money will be the retail industry. This will be because of a phenomenom called **displacement** where people who would normally come to the City to shop, will stay away because there will be limited services available, ie; hotel rooms, cafe’s etc;

So at the end of the day there will be a net loss of revenue. The Salt Lake City Olympics analysis showed a profit of $85 Million for bars, restaurants, and hotels, and a loss of $157 Million for retail business.

We will get an upgrade to Kin 1, which will be a benefit for those who use those facilites, however had the games not come to Prince George, I seriously doubt that we would have spent $15 Million for this upgrade, nor would we upgrade the Ski Trails, Purden, or Tabor Mountain.

So, there you have it an expenditure of over $15 Million with very little return to those people who have to pay the bills.

Have a nice day.