Welcome to our Enbridge future…..

http://www.google.ca/search?q=kalamazoo+river+oil+spill&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ecerT4KcDomW2QWu1IimAg&ved=0CHcQsAQ&biw=1663&bih=908

The ripoff here is that this pipeline will forever suck the natural resources out of this country with the least possible investment on Canadian soil. This is clear robery from the next generation. Pipeline construction jobs do not equal full time, permanent, family-sustaining refinery jobs.

“Using data from Enbridge’s own reports, the Polaris Institute calculated that 804 spills occurred on Enbridge pipelines between 1999 and 2010. These spills released approximately 168,645 barrels (26,812.4 m3) of hydrocarbons into the environment.”

That’s about 72 spills per year or 6 spills per month! Considering that the pipeline to Kitimat would cross dozens of streams and mountainous territory prone to avalanches, rockslides and washouts – what are the odds of a spill every so often?

“Pipeline construction jobs do not equal full time, permanent, family-sustaining refinery jobs.”

A Chinese (government owned pipeline construction) company may even get the nod to build the entire pipeline – all with Chinese labour. So even those temporary jobs would not go to Canadian workers as the company would simply bring in its own experienced cheap workforce.

When they [Ottawa] go to push it through I imagine we will see the most amazing civil disobedience this country has seen in years. It may even lead to BC separating from Canada……

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

I couldn’t put it any better Dragonmaster Enbridge must of scraped the bottom of the barrel to get even one of the votes that they say they have on record. They may be talking about a different project altogether.

The sky may well fall for a few construction/belting supply/repair business’s if the pipeline doesn’t go through.

It’s to bad those with financial interests in these type of projects are focused only on their bank accounts.

Enbridge is bound to paint the brightest picture it can to an Annual General Meeting of interested investors but I am sorry we don’t need that kind of investment in British Columbia.

Surefire: “Enbridge is bound to paint the brightest picture it can”

Of course it will. Much like the media is trying to paint the bleakest picture it can.

JohnnyBelt: In full respect, we all have a right ot our opinions but I get the feeling you are for this pipeline. If it goes through we would all be billed much higher for our natural gas plus there would be next to no benefit for the average canadian. Past history has proven Enbridge to be a typical greedy irresponsible corporate giant which lies to the public and does not follow through on their duties. Their spill record is 100% and they have abandoned every cleanup project without fulfilling their promises and leaving behind sometimes atrocious messes. There is no way on God’s green earth that the aboriginal people will allow this project to destroy BC. It will be war! There may even be deaths. This is serious. The media is not painting a negative picture. this is just truth in reporting. It`s reality man! Very real.

Ipsos poll just released by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce shows that the vast majority of Canadians, 75%, think that Canada needs to do what it takes to diversify our oil and gas markets.”

That’s funny I usually get a phone call when Ispos reid does a poll, not this time.
Must be selective polling.
Enbridge, you can take long walk on a short pier. You are not taking this Beautiful Province without a fight. I will guarantee it! And Johnny Belt don’t bother commenting on me, you have your purpose and I have mine!

If the oil doesnt go through Kitimat, then it will go South on the Keystone Pipeline. It will certainly go somewhere. The Oil Sands are responsible for approx 50,000 jobs in Canada, and in effect helped us through the last recession.

Maybe if we had the Gonads to build a refinery in Canada, as opposed to shutting them down, we might be able to process this oil, and distribute the diesel or gasoline.

The problem is the Oil Sands, Pipelines, Refineries, etc are all owned by Foreign Interests. Canadians think they own these resources but in fact they dont. They have some monetary interest, but I suspect not enough to influence decisions.

So at the end of the day we will have to make some hard decisions, which may have an adverse effect on Alberta. They in turn may make some hard decisions that will have an effect of BC.

If the Federal Government makes a decision that this pipeline should go through for the National Interest, then I suspect that is what will happen. Would that be a politically smart decision to make?? Probably not, however if anyone in this Country has the brass to make such a decision it would be Harper. All the other also rans, would avoid the issue, including the tax and spend NDP’ers.

We could put the issue to a referendum, and live with the consequences, however I doubt if that will happen.

To be frank, people around these parts don’t know squat about pipelines (other than what they are fed by the media) and ignorance fuels fear. If and when this pipeline gets approved, people will make threats, but will move on to the next big thing and all will be forgotten.

Enbridge and the federal gov’t can spin this project all they want, in their favour…the fact is, FNs that oppose this project will have it tied up in court for years, based on infringement of their rights and title…Enbridge and the federal gov’t could have easily avoided this scenario by taking a meaningful consultation process with FNs, which means, taking the whole, conceptual idea and meeting with FNs of what interest, if any, they may have wanted in the project, for ownership and financing options, not a cookie cutter, after the fact scenario, which Enbridge is engaged in. Instead, the feds told Enbridge, you consult this thing on our(federal gov’t) behalf and you’ll see it approved by us(fedral gov’t). What does Enbridge do? They start off by insulting 2 FNs(Kitkatla and Haisla). In 2003, they get escorted by police to Kitkatla for the first(and possibly the only) meeting and in Haisla(Kitimat) they proceed, without permission, to cut down sacred Culturally Modified Trees(CMTs) during a recce, with a big contractor, AMEC. They further insult the Haisla by wanting to pay them money for the trees, without first apologizing…Clearly, Enbridge has burned many bridges in this lousy-approach consultation. Art Sterritt, CEO of the Coastal First Nations group has asked the CEO of Enbridge to stop the NEB-JRP process and then they(FNs) will talk. Enbridge does not give it a moments thought and says No. So, the only option for any opposing FN is to (and has started the paper work) go to court. This project will not see the light of day for construction…

CEO Pat Daniel sure paints a rosy picture.

…To date, we have entered into equity and long term partnership agreements with over 20 of the 45 groups who have received such offers. We anticipate executing similar agreements with additional groups, in coming weeks,” said Daniel.

These will go down in flames like the agreement made with the Gitxsan. Chiefs signing agreements without consulting with their people. That’s why it’s so secretive on what groups signed on, the backlash from their own will be immense.

Count on it.

JohnnyBelt:”To be frank, people around these parts don’t know squat about pipelines (other than what they are fed by the media) and ignorance fuels fear.”

You too are influenced by from whatever media you get your information! It’s just that you have special interests and filter out anything you can’t stomach – like uncomfortable truths – by ridiculing others.

Don’t tell me you don’t use the media: Opinion 250 is MEDIA and you are a user!

I find it funny that Opinion 250 did not give any coverage to the people who recently rode the train from Vancouver, with stops in Jasper, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, all the way to Toronto to protest at the Enbridge AGM.

Why are we given an article on the CEO of Enbridge, but no coverage of the opposition?

Fair and balanced?

http://www.freedomtrain2012.com

“So at the end of the day we will have to make some hard decisions, which may have an adverse effect on Alberta. They in turn may make some hard decisions that will have an effect of BC.”

Don’t give squat if not building a pipeline through B.C. has an adverse effect on Alberta. They will find someone else to scam anyway.

“To be frank, people around these parts don’t know squat about pipelines (other than what they are fed by the media) and ignorance fuels fear. If and when this pipeline gets approved, people will make threats, but will move on to the next big thing and all will be forgotten.”

We know enough to research Enbridges leak track record and how they handle spills. That alone should scare the hell out of you.

The natives have a whole lot more support this round compared to the logging road blocks that happened during the 80’s at Clayoquot Sound.

Enbridge should focus on their backup plan and forget B.C.

How many issues have there been with the gas line between PG and Terrace?

“Interestingly, while the project has attracted a vocal opposition, an Ipsos poll just released by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce shows that the vast majority of Canadians, 75%, think that Canada needs to do what it takes to diversify our oil and gas markets.”

In other words, people have very little idea about ‘what it takes’. Or they live in la-la land.

Sure, let’s shut down projects like Northern Gateway and let the NDP run the province a while. That will be a good reality check for everyone.

Sounds good to me JohnnyB. Might beat the reality we have endured since the Libs came to power. Now they want to force the teachers to volunteer!!!! LMFAO. We need a new reality so we can forget the one we are in now.

B.C. isn’t gaining anything from this pipeline except the risk of a spill. And we all know how Enbridge likes to handle spills.

JohnnyBelt:”…and let the NDP run the province a while.”

That may be not such a bad idea! B.C. survived a long decade of NDP rule and its four different premiers! The people are much tougher than those weird politicians.

After the first term we can vote them out!

Dont recall anyone ever bitching about a pipeline when the Trans Canada Pipeline was built in the 1960’s. Seems in those days people went to work and did what had to be done to build the Country.

These days we have a bunch of bitchers that do nothing. BC could not survive without pipelines, and oil or gas. It has to come from somewhere. Seems we want other Countries to take all the risk while we pretend that we are concious of the environment, even though most people never get off there asses to appreciate what they have.

There were thousands of ships sank during the 2nd world war, that would have spilled millions of gallons of diesel into the Ocean. What happened to all that oil??? Seems it was absorbed into the atmosphere, or ocean, one way or another. We are now talking about a possible spill somewhere between Bruderholm AB and Kitimat, or the possibility of a spill in the Ocean from Kitimat to the open sea.

We need to ensure that the companies putting in these plans take the responsibility for ensuring that spills do not take place. Thats the key, and thats what our Governments should be working on.

Most of the diesel and gasoline consumed in BC comes from Alberta, so we should try to work with them to solve these problems.

Without gas or diesel we are finished.

“The Fraser River is the largest salmon producing river in the world and is a must see for tourists and anglers alike!”

http://www.flygal.ca/fraser_river-salmon

Food is more precious than oil. We can’t eat oil. For that reason alone the pipline should fail.

The Transcanada Pipeline doesn’t carry oil sands bitumen which is more toxic than regular crude. A spill of this bitumen into the Fraser River would be a huge disaster.

Just refining this oil is bad for the environment compared to regular oil.

“Making liquid fuels from oil sands requires energy for steam injection and refining. This process generates two to four times the amount of greenhouse gases per barrel of final product as the “production” of conventional oil.”

People used to think asbestos was safe.

Thats all fine Palopu but the oil that could flow through the Enbridge pipeline is being shipped to Asia. It has nothing to do with our gasoline or diesel supplies.

I don’t always agree with you, Palopu, but you hit the nail on the head. Good post.

JohnnyBelt wrote: “people around these parts don’t know squat about pipelines”

Sounds to me like you know squat about pipelines.

1. Pipelines carry a product from one end to another.

2. The pipeline is not the only thing that matters.

3. The product matters as well.

4. How the product is produced matters as well

5. How the product gets shipped from the other end of the pipeline matters as well.

6. Where the product is shipped also matter.

7. What we could do with the product also matters.

It is an integrated project. I know, divide and conquer, right? Get the pipleine built and the others things will fall in place, just like dominos.

The oil extraction method is very costly in terms of energy and likely the environment as well. We should be linking any pipeline approval with an investment trust to find ways to speed up the increase in extraction efficiency and reduce environmental inpact at source.

We should be reducing the amount of low value added feedstock, in this case the bitumen should be at the least refined here and at the best a portion produced into secondary/tertiary manufacturing product which would then make it a true investment in Alberta and BC.

With a less “dirty” feedstock, the USA customers will be more interested in the product. In spite of the USA trade policy, I think, after being BC and then Canadian citizens, we are North American citizens and we need to keep the natural continental partnership alive. I think we need to deal with foreign policy when we think of this pipline.

Then there is the whole notion of how and from where we ship the oil to other parts of the world.

So, the issue is complex, integrated, and not one to take lightly or left to simpletons.

Of course, these days, when leaviing such matters to government, one does leave it to simpletons. We have no choice.

I am beginning to think it is an age thing. ;-)

Just because some people say this oil is going to China doesnt make it so. Something like 70% of the Oil Sands, and Oil in Alberta are owned by Foreign Companies. Approx 19% is owned by the Chinese.

I seriously doubt that any of this oil that is owned by the USA or British Oil companies will be going to China. More likely it will go via ship to the refineries in California. Thats where the big market is, and thats where its needed.

Its all about the cost of transportation and refining.

It is much safer (politically) to leave the impression that this oil will go to China and give us another market for the oil, rather than admit that it might be all going to the USA.

In any event its the oil Companies that make the decision where they sell their oil, not the Canadian Government or the Alberta Government. They make their money from the royalties. (Billions)

So time will tell, however I think China is a long shot.

As usual gus, thanks for educating us simpletons. It must be exhausting for you sometimes.

Just because I don’t have the inclination for 1500-2000 word posts like yourself, don’t think that I haven’t thought of the different angles of this project.

After all, this is the comments section of a local news website where people are allowed to post anonymously. That’s about as seriously as I take it. As soon as this story hits page two, it’s dead and we go on to the next thing.

If I were one to trust a poitician … hmm would that make a Johnnybelt or just a dummy.

Forest Ethics Advocacy report states the following.

71% of the ownership of Alberta oilsands production was foreign, while the foreign-based companies controlled 24.2 percent of the sectors production.

Some notably Canadian oil companies such as Suncor, Cdn Oil Sands,and Husky, are predominantly owned by non-Canadian. The data also shows that more than half of Canada’s oil and gas revenue goes to foreign entities.

Investment in oilsands production between 2007 and 2011 from China amounted to $11.7 Billion, making up about 16% of the total investments of $73.6 billion in that time period.

The Canadian Energy Research Institute, a government-funded think tank, has estimated that the oilsands sector is responsible for more than 100,000 direct and indirect jobs in Canada, and will contribute more than $1.7 Trillion to the country’s economy over the next 25 years.

Companys with foreign headquarters and over 95% foreign ownership. Statoil, Mocal Energy, Royal Dutch Shell, Devon Energy, ConocoPhillips.

Companys with Canadian headquarters and % of foreign ownerships.

Petrobank Energy Resources 94.8%
Husky Energy 90.0%
MEG Energy 89.1%
Imperial Oil 88.9%
Nexen 69.9%
Cdn Natural Resources 58.8%
Suncor Energy 56.8%
Cdn Oil Sands 56.8%
Cenovus 54.7%

So we will have to wait and see where the oil actually goes.

We must remember that producing this oil is a environmental disaster. And the more oil we export the higher tbe prise will be for the Canadian consumer . Its simple its supply and demand
Cheers

Johny, your bang on. You could put most posters knowledge of pipelines and oil economics on the head of a pin. Extrapolating the potential leaks on Gateway based on there total network only underscores this ignorance. Kalamzoo was 50 years old. Built with technolgy that by todays standards is the equivilant of model t’s.

The reason there aren’t refineries being built is pure economics. These are mutibillion dollar investments and they won’t be built if the numbers arn’t there.
That may be a surprise to you dippers, but so are most things about economics.

and Gus,your out of your league on this. Ever heard “sometimes its better to be silent and thought a fool, than to type a diatribe and remove all doubt”

We must remember that producing this oil is a environmental disaster.

Got proof?

There are a million miles of pipeling in North America already.

Takes energy to produce, sure does but not enough not to make a profit.

Show me the proof a trace gas affects climate. Proof now, not something from some nutter like Suzuki or Hansen.

dow7500 FTW!!!

seamutt: “There are a million miles of piping in North America already.”

An inconvenient truth to be sure, but by the way some people are opposed, you would think this is the first pipeline ever to be buried in the ground.

Pipes are everywhere transporting all sorts of materials worldwide. They are by far the safest method to do so. Nobody wants to read stories about safely operating pipelines.

“Kalamzoo was 50 years old.”
So! This pipeline if it is built will be 50 years old one day. How did Enbridge handle the Kalamzoo spill? Would you be happy if they handled a similar spill into the Stuart River that way?

Just read seamutt, you will find your proof.
“A 2009 study by the consulting firm IHS CERA estimated that production from Canada’s oil sands emits “about 5% to 15% more carbon dioxide, over the “well-to-wheels” lifetime analysis of the fuel, than average crude oil.”

“According to the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers and Environment Canada the oil sands make up about 5% of Canada’s greenhouse gas emissions, or 0.1% of global greenhouse gas emissions. It predicts the oil sands will grow to make up 8% of Canada’s greenhouse gas emissions by 2015”.

“There are a million miles of pipeling in North America already.”

They aren’t all carrying Oil Sands Bitumen.

Exactly Dragonmaster.

The statement put forward by Palopu that ‘Without gas or diesel we are finished.’ Is a most ludicrous statement if by that he means to avoid being finished we should risk serious pollution of our rivers and ocean to export a limited national resource… to enrich a communist patriarch that is using near slave labor… to undermine our national labor standards in the pursuit of negative arbitrage on the environment, again through a willing communist patriarch that will dirty refine pollute the air we breath in ways we would never dream of here in Canada… yet when we have 1.3 billion consumers sucking on that hose, and a limited national resource that would last Canada 300 years dwindles to a 30-year resource… then at least the foreign multinationals will ensure a higher premium on whats left, and they will get a positive arbitrage on their price and profits… we can do that and avoid being finished… ludicrous.

The whole project from Enbridge perspective boils down to one word… arbitrage… not sustainability or environmental stewardship… simply get a higher price (no matter the insidious collateral implications) and pocket the difference for their shareholders.

From the Chinese perspective its profitable survival of the regime, and for Harper it fills his ego to always have the most outlandish strongman solution to an Albertan mental midget mindset… its what got him where he is today.

IMO the idea that this project is even proposed shows the depth of political corruption of the national interest in this country, and the lack of any real functioning democracy that supports a real fiduciary duty to sovereignty and the sustainability of the Canadian people. This Enbridge Gateway project is a sellout not only of the future generations, but of Canada itself… if Canadians in other provinces want to cash in on the Canadian sellout of BC, then that will be their choice, but it will be a choice to break up any real interest BC had in Canada once the trust of being ones brothers keeper is extinguished through an ignorant national majority rules concept feed buy corporate propaganda and multinational corporate feeding political campaigns.

IMHO

Palopu is right about one thing… not all the oil will go to Petro China… initially they will be the driving force to get the pipeline through hoping to angle out others and take as much for themselves as possible. This in Harpers world enables the pipeline and ocean access for Alberta oil that is all.

One look at how China acts against all international norms in the South China Sea and we should realize that relationship won’t be sustainable over even a decade.

No this pipeline is about ocean access in Harpers world, so that it can be shipped through our Arctic Northwest Passage as the cheapest route for Alberta oil getting to Amsterdam where the mega refineries for most of Europe are locate… thats why Harper is selling the Atlantic fisheries to EU mega corporations in the EU Free Trade deal he is negotiating behind closed doors… so that Alberta oil is not considered dirty and can be sold freely to a customer held hostage to bad actor sources… thus giving Harper more strategic power that he so craves… Canada, Canadian fishermen, and Canadian industry and Canadian sovereignty, and the Canadian Arctic will be damned as collateral damage… so long as the oil companies have global markets, access and obscene profits.

Surefire: “If I were one to trust a poitician … hmm would that make a Johnnybelt or just a dummy.”

Hm. I don’t trust politicians… nor do I trust the uninformed uneducated members of the mob (aka the general public).

Dow says,

“Kalamzoo was 50 years old. Built with technolgy that by todays standards is the equivilant of model t’s”

LOL! and that folks says a whole lot about Enbridge.

What type of people and business let their infrastructure deteriorate for 50 years doesn’t upgrade it and allows this to happen?

How about greedy slime that doesn’t give a crap about anything but profits!

Thanks dow!

Palopu says,

“Just because some people say this oil is going to China doesnt make it so”

Thats all fine Palopu but the oil that could flow through this proposed Enbridge pipeline isn’t being sold to Canadians, unless those Canadians are buying it while they are in a foreign country. How does that affect our gasoline and diesel supplies and how does your other statement “Without gas or diesel we are finished” fit in with our supplies here at home other than they will dry up for Canadians sooner than they should?

Dragon, the problem is people like you don’t want them to build new lines so they keep running the old ones. Look at kinder morgan’s proposal. The eco nuts are OK with using the existing line but scream like hell if its to be twined and replaced.
Look at Keystone, same deal. Industry will tie in and reverse a bunch of old lines and get the oli to the coast. But no way your building a new line with modern pipe,corosion technology, and monitoring.

Once a line, particularly ones built with old technology fail, there is no maitenance that can be done. There shot. They need replacing. Like a motor with 300k miles.

So dragon, you and your ilk are the ones endangering the environment, LOL. You think your saving the planet with your ignorant name calling, but your really the problem.

Dow, keep trying to convince yourself. Let us know when you start believing the BS you’re posting here.

You don’t really believe what you just said do you? Re-read it man . Its ridiculous!

Maybe the entire northern gateway project isn’t for export, but a supply line in case a war breaks out involving Russia or China.

I belive you mom and dad were brother and sister.