Let me guess, they have no plans to fix the road base. The paving will last 1-2 years. Council is not fixing the roads, they are just wasting the money.

Now they want to waste the downtown off-street parking reserves. These businesses are paying a lot of money to provide parking downtown. Not only is the City stealing the money for other projects–and not using it for parking downtown, but they are wanting to add another tax on downtown parking by introducing ticket spitters on each block.

It`s like using a dixie cup to fill up a swimming pool.

Why not use the money in the “Road Rehabilitation RESERVE” that I see on my tax bill…..what there is no money in the reserve…..facepalm

tractor you can thank all of those previous city councils that said “YES” to urban sprawl. PG is way too big for 80,000 people. 600KM of roadways which have a lot of hills and turns etc to deal with are the reason we can’t maintain it.

I looked at a City that had 600KM of roadways to maintain in the US with similar weather conditions……..2.0
million people live there. And we are trying to cover the same roadways with 4% of the people……not hard to figure this out.

I think as Citizens of the current PG we have to admit that it’s going to take more money to get roads paved. Let’s fork over the money and get this done instead of complaining about it for years……

Then WHY is the city still expanding into new subdivisions?

mwk makes a great point – while they talk about not enough money to fix the roads we have, the question is what are they doing to restrict the sprawl that is creating more roads (that we also won’t be able to fix)? I don’t think that issue has been raised at all by our councilors but it is important to start with managing growth or at least putting a cap on the “inventory” we are trying to maintain.

As a resident of the Hart I think it’s time to break away from the city and go back to being our own municipality. Then maybe with a council from this area our roads up here might get some attention. I don’t think any of the current council even reside in the Hart.

lonesome sparrow wrote: “Why not use the money in the “Road Rehabilitation RESERVE” that I see on my tax bill”

The City is using that. It amounts to $3.5million a year. Administration told Council they need twice as much to keep up.

I do not know whether the reserve funds the entire $3.5million or whether it is a top up. If it is the full amount, then double the figure we pay into the reserve. and we will supposedly get perfect roads and repair services.

I would not count on it.

I would like to see a comprehensive report of road inventory, conditions, catch up cost and period over which the work can be expected to be done, and once that is done, the continuing expense of proper maintenance, including expected inflation.

I have an idea,why dont we declare the city “bankrupt”. this would allow a competent staff to look after the city.
Cheers

“As a resident of the Hart I think it’s time to break away from the city and go back to being our own municipality”

Was the Hart ever a separate municipality? I think it was just another part of the Regional District, the same as College Heigths. South Fort George was a separate municipality.
—————————–
“I think as Citizens of the current PG we have to admit that it’s going to take more money to get roads paved”

All I want to know is whethr we are throwing good money after bad. I want a “sustainable plan” that looks at how to optimize the application of the money.

So, increase the population of the areas around the downtown by about 5 times the current density. No addtional roads required, but improvements needed to the roads, sidewalks and services in the area, including provisions of pocket parks, trees, street quietening, improved on street parking, etc.

Increase point highrise infills in the areas east of Central and north of Ferry.

This City is still hooked on sprawling growth wich likely costs more per housing unit to maintain than population grwoth held primarily to the geographic center of the City.

If we are to get more of the share of the provincial income pie, we should also make sure that it is spent in a similar fashion of funding those areas wich create a more efficient city.

mwk, you fork over your money.I received my tax bill a couple of days ago and am not impressed.In another month or so we will get our utilities bill and will no doubt have an increase on it but we are paying lower taxes than most comparable size cities so they tell us.What a crock.And you saying to payup is telling council there are taxpayers that will pay higher taxes.Lets do that.

gus

A “Reserve Fund” implies that something is being set aside for future needs.

The city spent a ton on the pavement analysis system, should be able to spit out that report without a problem….no bucks to do anything about it…but a nice report none the less.

Looking at the future cap-ex soon every city vehicle will be equipped with a laptop and be connected to the data servers,you will get really up to date information on the vertical assets.

We should start using studies and reports to fill potholes as there is an endless supply and most just bow bookshelves and collect dust on completion.

The whole section of Ospika from Ferry to Tyner needs to be done.

I guess by not doing a complete job it will get to be in the top 5 worst roads in BC for next year.

I love being in the top 5!

The whole section of Ospika from Ferry to Tyner needs to be done.

I guess by not doing a complete job it will get to be in the top 5 worst roads in BC for next year.

I love being in the top 5!

New pavement cannot be layed over old. Simple as that. Just look at the vast majority of holes, it is the newer top layer and in some cases last years pavement breaking away from the bottom old layer. Hello city engineers you should have done less partying and more learning when going to school.

seamutt wrote: “New pavement cannot be layed over old. Simple as that”

You may think it is simple. It is simple and it is wrong.

To keep it simple, virtually all pavement these days is done by removing the top layer, using the material plus an added mix to put more oil based material back into the mix and redepositing the new mix on the surface exposed.

Higheways has no problem with it. The strets in the city, such as Victoria, First, etc. which are provincial jurisdiction do nto have the problems the City has.

That simply points back to the likely situation that there is something wrong with what the City is doing. Any troubleshooter would reach the same conclusion. The thing I do not know is what it is since I do not have exact knowledge of what the City actually does.

Too many castles being built instead of basic police stations; too many payouts to top employees; too many dikes and Kin Centres.

They are not covering the basics – streets, snow removal.

Keep this in mind and kick them all out of council and the mayor’s chair next time around.

They have to do better than this and they have to be more responsive than they are. The City roads are an embarrassment.

Pine cCentre Road from Highway 97 down to Massey? That little stretch of an “off ramp”? I pretend I live in England and drive on the left side to avoid the craters. Carefully of course.

Looks simple to me, there is a problem, right. Find out what the highways do that might be different, simple.

Last resort suggestion: The City could try Lotto Max tickets and go for The Big Payout! One time lucky would pave all the streets!

Problem solved! ;-)

It’s not any different than the City taking a gamble all these years in the hope of winning a huge infrastructure transfer payment from Ottawa!

PG you got to be kidding, it would get used on the PAC.

Haul away all the pavement and go back to gravel roads. Easy to maintain, simply grade, water down occaisionally and its’ done. Could then start with the main streets and start repaving them one by one as money allows.

We could be a tourist destination. The only city over 50k in Canada with gravel streets.

Seamutt …. do you travel much?

Here is the method that I have seen along the highways on a repaving project in BC for some time…… a one shot approach by taking all the steps into one. The surface of the layer underneath the layer removed is hot enough to create a good bond between new and old something a milling process followed by a resurfacing process does not achiev in my opinion.

You may not have known that. But that is okay ….. now you do. Simple.

BC Highways site:
http://tranbc.ca/2011/05/18/national-road-safety-week-the-four-rs-of-road-resurfacing-reduce-reuse-recycle-and-repave

You tube [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf88DU3omfg[/url]

A US firm has some good videos of more modern machinery.
http://angelobenedetti.com

A washington state report from 2010 which shows some of the positives and negatives that may limit the types of roads it can be used on. There are other reports out there as well that are much older.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/research/reports/fullreports/738.1.pdf

Quit talking about 600 km of roads to maintain. In 22 years I have yet to see a nickel spent on the crescent where I live and that is probably true for most side streets. The city is not maintaining 600 km. It has a hard time maintaining the 100 km of road used on the daily commute but uses the 600 number as an excuse for poor planning and mismanagement.

The sprawl issue actually was brought up during the eleciton, in one of the all-candidates forums. Several respondents said they have the right to live in nature and not within the bowl. Fine, for existing subdivisions. But why do we need more? There are plenty of places to develop within the bowl where all services already go by the front door. Put a prioity on those until we have more money to allow people to live in nature. Or charge a high premium for those that insist on living away from teh centre.

You are right in one sense, that there is little maintenance on low traffic local residential roads that typically do not have heavy vehicles such as buses, trucks, etc. on them.

That is why we need an inventory, which I assume we have, that is classified according to, road use, date of construction, section specifications, maintenance records, etc.

With that information, we can come up with a program which integrates work on a priority basis and fit that to funding, including some projections on cost of oil products which may support getting some of the required work done more quickly.

I think the other thing we need is a decision about what standard of disrepair this community will accept. Perhaps a positive statement would be better. What is the quality standard this community wants. I do not think this community has ever been engaged on that.

What is nature? Something that is nature to one person is urban to another.

We have to realize that there is a price to living in nature unless it is a trailer on a 5 acre property with an outhouse and water taken from a creek accessed by a dirt road. In that case, one lives out of town.

The Regional District is about “living in nature”.

The City is about “living in an urban environment” with urban parks.

Would I ask the Regional District to provide transit, paved roads, lit roads, storm and sanitary sewers, garbage pickup, water, fire fighting services, hospital nearby, Tim Hortons down the street, etc. etc? ….. of course not!

New sprawl going up on Tyner Blvd, (Two areas) probably will be more. In addition new sprawl in lower college heights. So more, garbage, snow, and road costs.

The City has a population of 70,000, however residential taxpayers are probably around 30,000. This number is not going to grow substantially for the next 15/20 years, so there is no solution to our problems in the short term. Increasing our taxes to provive services to an area that covers 315 sq kilometers is not a solution. In fact the area of the City is the problem.

I agree that the Hart Highway and Pineview, and perhaps a portion of Northwest College Heights should be returned to the Regional District. This would decrease the number of taxpayers in Prince George, however it would also decrease our costs, and make a more manageable City.

This is a possible solution, so you can rest assured that no action will be taken.

The City wants the other levels of Government to bail them out. Seems this is the only solution they are capable of grasping.

I say to hell with that. Solve the problem with the money you now collect, or find yourselve another line of business. Raising taxes is a fools game, played by less than responsible politicians, because it is easy, requires no effort, and usually involves them getting a raise in pay.

Time to wake up and smell the roses.

Do you know that a paving machine can be bought for almost the same $$ as this 3 block peice of road is going to cost us??
A son works for a company that sells these.
All we would have to do is buy a couple machines, train the crews to operate them, pay for the road mix and do it ourselves (the city crews). Instead we are paying highway robbery prices for companies to come in and do a bit here and a bit there!!
I quess an idea like owning the equipment is just too efficient for this city!!
What the hay; it’s only money, and not even theirs (council) to spend.

sjm,

did you ever consider that the major cost is the actual road mix and not the equipment itself?

Another thought, can you imagine a city crew running a paver? Remember a couple of years ago when they tried to paint their own lines on the roads?

http://martec.ca/media

Martec … Canadian design for Canadian roads located in Canadian weather and traffic conditions.

The USA is a latecomer in this.

“did you ever consider that the major cost is the actual road mix and not the equipment itself”

If you need new material, you are likely right. If you recycle, not likely the case, and if you can use the hot in place recycling system (not usable everywhere due to constraints such as manholes, complex intersections, emissions close to residences if old equipment is used, etc. then definitely not.

Some sellers of the service are saying there are 40% savings to be had. I would like to see some verification of that before I believe it. However, it seems reasonable that with highways in town as well as some arterials with minimal manholes, the single pass system would say a significant amount.

Problem is to get a contractor who can work here. Coordinating work with other communities would probably be the way to go rather than equipment purchasing. It sits idle for 7 to 8 months. Note very efficient unless it is shared with southern communities willing to schedule work in the shoulder seasons or some other type of coordination.

Gus, are you proposing the city buy a paving outfit, hire and train a crew, then go out and pursue outside work? Based on the city workforce, its a real stretch that they could operate efficiently and put out a quality product.

Im not sure what you do for a living, but how would you like it if the city decided to branch into your field of expertise?

A city subsidized business aggressively going after work from the private sector?

ABV … please read a bit more carefully. it was sjm who wrote about buying equipment.

I wrote: “Problem is to get a contractor who can work here. Coordinating work with other communities would probably be the way to go rather than equipment purchasing. It sits idle for 7 to 8 months”

I really do not understand why some people have problems reading ……

AAV ….. onto another topic coming out of your post.

The City needs to do its own snow clearing …. private contractors around here are terrible …. or the City has to learn how to manage the work the contractors do. Graders and front end loaders are not the tools to use for proper snow clearing in a winter city.

The key is “value for money” …. how much does it cost per unit and how well is the job done.

There is no magic in private or public. People are people. Some are conscientious workers, others are not. This is a small town not some urban agglomeration with tons of options. Here you take what you can get.

Contractors pave the roads for us. The City hires and does quality control, supposedly. So why are your private contractors so lousy at building roads, AAV?

AAV wrote: “Based on the city workforce, its a real stretch that they could operate efficiently and put out a quality product.”

Contractors pave the roads, not City crews. City crews patch the potholes. Maybe we need to do some sampling. Get private contractors to do a section of the city and see whether they do any better on a cost basis and a quality basis.

Gus, on the point of private contracts, what comes 1st the chicken or the egg? The city wants the lowest bid with no regard to longevity or long term cost effectiveness. They set out the way they want the job done then give the contract to the lowest bidder. If a bidder is 1 dollar cheaper, they get the job.

The city pays for what it gets. I wouldn’t go around blaming the contractors, they would love to do the job properly, but they are confined by the outlines of the contracts.

Gus, time for you to learn how to read. Your last post, I brought up that I doubt the city could run a paving operation efficiently, nowhere did I say the city currently paved. We all know they patch. What is your point?

As for testing, if you watch every paving job in the city you will see a few round circles about 3-4 inches in diameter, those are test holes drilled by the city or the engeneering firm hired by the city. All jobs undergo quality testing to make sure they conform to city spec.

“what comes 1st the chicken or the egg?”

Ah yes, the question for those who do not understand biology and evolution.

Headline of rthe linked article.
‘The chicken came first, not the egg’, scientists prove

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/835020-the-chicken-came-first-not-the-egg-scientists-prove

“Hey, there is an egg in a nest. Wonder what will pop out of that one.” … LOL

As opposed to: “Hey, that thing has evolved from giving birth to live chickens to laying eggs wich will hatch if given the right environment.”

AAV, we know your reading skills, so now I wonder about your memory skills.

You wrote: “nowhere did I say the city currently paved.”

Did I say that you said that? Where did I say that? Please give the time of the post I made that said that.

A typical City paving tender is viewable here:
http://princegeorge.ca/citybusiness/supplyservices/biddingopportunities/Tenders/PGDOCS_n149510_v3_T10-09_2010_Asphaltic_Concrete_Pavement_and_Related_Work.pdf

AAV, you wrote that “they set out the way they want the job done then give the contract to the lowest bidder.” Yes, that is one of two ways of doing it. It is a prescriptive specification which is the most common type of specification. What it calls for is good monitoring of the contractor’s work to ensure that the prescription is actually followed.

A performance specification, which some Councillors are now asking about, is another way to go, but generally that is even tougher to monitor and enforce.

A contractor has a right to refuse to bid if the contractor thinks that the product being asked to be delivered will not be suitable for the purpose it is being built. Those contractors will call to make sure that when they read something that they figure is not right or has changed in the world of asphalt paving that it is intended as written.

So you read those specifications and tell me where the asphalt paving section is wrong or inadequate and a better method is available for contractors.

I will tell you that from my experience there are some key areas to watch and where low bidders especially will try to gain some time and thus make some savings.

1. Air and surface temperatures are at the low limits and they have had bad weather so they will push the limits

2. tack coats have been applied and waiting till aspahlt is allowed to be placed on the tack coat and one of those “occasional showers” happens which leaves small amounts of water which they figure will steam the water away when asphalt is placed over them.

3. inadequate preparation of joints with adjacent panels – if you notice that is the “fault line” of many of the roads where the surface is separating due to water getting into those joints.

You know, I read this direction with some interest – on page 70

“4.23.3 – No mix shall be placed or transported when the air temperature is below 40C without permission of the City.”

I wonder how, in a city which has never seen temperatures as high as 40C, any asphaltic pavement can ever be done.

;-)

I wrote that joints between panels is one of the key areas of breakdown in pavement projects in general and very much so in this city. Here is what the specs say about that.

4.24 Joint Construction
When paving an adjoining parallel mat there shall be at least a 50mm overlap onto the previously paved surface. This overlap shall be PROPERLY constructed to from (SIC) a homogeneous bond between the two mats.
Longitudinal joints in the top lift of asphalt pavement will only be permitted where dividing lines are to be painted. Joints shall be pinched AS SOON AS PREACTICABLE, using BEST COMPACTION PRACTICES. Raking shall be performed by COMPETENT PEOPLE and shall be kept up to date with the lay down operation. Rolling of all joints shall be kept up to date and commence immediately after raking is completed. Joints shall not be OVER-RAKED nor shall dished joints be permitted. Any raked material from the joint shall not be placed on the new mat, but may be uniformly spread in front of the paver AS THIN AS PRACTICAL.

I changed some of the words/phrases to upper case to highlight those areas that are not specified and are left to inspectors to keep a close eye on and to contractors to determine how to do the work.

An easy example. How does one determine whether a person is competent? Is the City given a list of people who will work on raking and their experience is detailed. Or perhaps the rakers are all given a sample area to rake and the City inspector will attend with the contractor’s super and determine whether the workers are competent in the eyes of the City.

You know as well as I do that will never happen.

I am just pointing out that anyone who thinks that a contractor working on any construction site is never in a position to determine how something is done because it is all in the specs does not understand construction contracts and the relationship with the owner’s forces and the contractors forces.

I quote “AAV wrote: “Based on the city workforce, its a real stretch that they could operate efficiently and put out a quality product.”

Contractors pave the roads, not City crews.”

Explain your meaning without the political stepdance then. Your the master of answering a question with a question and trying to change the point of the topic.

My point was a rebuttal to the city buying their own paving plant. Just what in the heck was your point then????????

“”4.23.3 – No mix shall be placed or transported when the air temperature is below 40C without permission of the City.”

I wonder how, in a city which has never seen temperatures as high as 40C, any asphaltic pavement can ever be done.”

Gus, you know what the contractors call the jobs they do for the city?

Waive and pave.

You should be able to figure that one out.

AAV wrote: “My point was a rebuttal to the city buying their own paving plant. Just what in the heck was your point then????????”

Geez … how mnay times do I have to repeat myself? (That’s the question to your answer .. LOL)

And here is the answer to your answer. My original response to you can be read above if you go to this post. “gus on May 30 2012 7:01 AM”

I really think that it speaks for itself if you re-read it carefully. Since it is there to read still, I do not have to go any further except to add the note that “sjm” must be laughing histerically if that individual is following this at all.

On Ospika in particular, its not the surface pavement that’s the problem – its the sub-base. They need to strip the pavement COMPLETELY away and address the underlying issue.

If the sub-base compaction isn’t sufficient (which is obvious given the sheer number of pot holes and massive gaps in the pavement) the paltry 2″ thick lifts of pavement don’t stand a chance of surviving even a single PG winter – especially if its one like last year where the weather constantly dipped just above then below freezing repeatedly. That freeze/thaw cycle decimates faulty paving in a hurry.

Has anyone from the city actually looked at the what the surface of the milled pavement on Ospika looks like? Its just another layer riddled with cracks, old filled potholes and crumbling material – just like the crap they milled away. Why would you waste time, money and materials putting good material down on top of crap like that?

And they wonder where all the money goes…