Financial Decisions Made By City Council That Leave You Wondering
Thursday, June 7, 2012 @ 3:45 AM
While members of City Council are shopping around looking for more money from the senior levels of government or a means to put more taxes in place to get more cash, they surely must reflect on the decisions that have given rise to the current state of affairs in the city.
Case in point is the revitalization tax exemption.
This year just shy of 130,000 dollars will be written off in taxes; of that figure $68,249.00 will go to Commonwealth Health Corporation for the renovations they made on the old Casino building. That tax break was handed over to them in spite of the fact that the Casino was one of the most recent structures built in the downtown.
It is important to also consider that present Mayor Shari Green had attended a meeting of provincial Cabinet ministers along with Commonwealth, seeking tax breaks for construction in the downtown of up to 25 years. The Mayor supported the initiative and went so far as to raise the issue at a council meeting.
25 years of not paying taxes is a full generation for most home owners and to this day, asking them to subsidize other private developments seems very unfair. Eeven at this rate, in five years the company will enjoy a $340,000 dollar tax break and if the city is foolish enough to hand them out you can’t fault Commonwealth for cashing in.
But wait there is more.
A couple of years ago the city bought the Prince George Hotel after paying a quarter million dollar premium on the purchase and then a year later tore it down at a further cost of 1 million. The loss of the taxes paid by the old owners on the building was, give or take a few bucks about $50,000 year. In the past two years that equates to a further $100,000 dollars that must come from the other tax payers in the city.
The question of why we needed to tear down the old Prince George Hotel still is a question in my mind that never was answered. I do know this; it has cost the city taxpayers $3.5 million in money that should have gone to roads and a further 50 thousand a year that we no longer have in the bank.
That brings into question just how much thought was given by those people who sit at the council table when they make decisions such as these and the long term effect that it may have on the taxpayers.
Instead of looking around for new sources of revenue, as the Council seems bent on as of recent days, they should have been looking at their spending in the past.
They clearly haven’t.
I’m Meisner and that one man’s opinion.
Comments
Meisner, you have plenty of opinions but not much imagination. A symptom of old age, or just your general state of being?
I take it from your comments in this article that your solution would have just been to let the downtown core continue to rot then? That is my presumption, because you didn’t offer any alternatives. Ever heard of a term called densification?
The downtown core has been in decline for decades now. Have you ever stopped to think about what affect that has had on the tax base of this town? If the properties in the downtown core, once the heart of this City, continue to decline, so too does the property tax revenue that they generate. That money has to come from somewhere, because even though the downtown is rundown it still needs roads, water, sewer and utilities supplied to it and probably always will.
Somewhere along the line, someone made a mistake with their projections for this town and we have fallen victim to something known as urban sprawl. The powers that be probably thought it was fine to have developments spread all over the area that the City now covers, because the growing population would encourage eventual infill. That population growth has not happened and neither has the infill. So we probably now have twice the infrastructure necessary to support our population and now that the infrastructure is starting to warrant replacement, we’re starting to realize the enormity of the mistake.
I see a future coming where the further away from the core of the City you live, the more you’ll pay in property tax, if you want City services. Policies will be developed to encourage densification, as an efficiency measure. Properties will be closer together, there will be more multiple family dwellings, better transit systems and less driving done by the average citizen. The core of the City will be redesigned and redeveloped in a more sustainable fashion. The job of City Hall is to keep the downtown viable, attractive to investment, so that it can repay the cost of serving it and then some.
It is the tax payers who pay for everything the city spends money on. Tearing down buildings in the downtown core, handing out tax breaks helps a select few and we all know who they are.
Fixing roads to the benefit of everyone.
what do you think makes the most sense
keep it up Meisner you struck a nerve.
The decline of the downtown doesn’t affect the majority of people like the road conditions (potholes) do.
There are a heck of a lot more people who travel the roads compared to those that go downtown… and that’s a fair statement even going back decades.
So I agree with Ben, why did council spend all that money on the old PG Hotel and yet they are unable to find money to fix the roads.
If you don’t go downtown for quite some time your car would definately be A-okay with that… sadly the same can’t be said about the roads you’d use to get there.
Paying all that Money for the old Hotel was insane but then again it was only Taxpayers Money!
Interesting that the PG hotel was left un heated and un maintained to the point where it had to be torn down. The basement had been left to flood in one instance. Be interesting to see if someone now buys the property for a song after the taxpayer pays to tear it down.
Sine Nomine maybe you can tell us why the building was left unmaintained?
We have other instances of where the City spent money on property, which resulted in us losing tax dollars, and then they do nothing with the property. Some examples would be.
1. The Norgate Auto Body Building adjacent to City Hall.
2. The old Williams Moving and Storage building on 4th and Scotia, that was bought for the Community Energy System, that they were going to locate there. This never happened, as they located at Lakeland Mills.
3. The Old CKPG building and the Bamboo Restaurant on 6th Avenue.
In addition, what are they going to do with the old Police Station, once the new station is built. They basically said that the building needed huge dollars for renovations, and maintenance, etc; when they were vying for money for the new building. Now they will have to sell it or let it sit. Whats their plan. Can they sell this building after they basically trashed it in the press??
The City is in the process of selling off some land at the South End of the Golf Course (Tennis Courts) They will then put $800,000.00 into the golf course building, and build new tennis courts. What happens to the additional revenue that will be generated by the sale of this property???? I beleive it will be approx $2.5 Million. Will it go to road repair, or will it disapear into the Land Reserve Fund, like so many millions before it.
The City is building new offices for purchasing and stores staff at their yard at 18th and Ospika, after they move, what happens to the office and stores buildings at the East end of Third Ave.??? Can they sell this property, or will it sit for years. Did they need a new building??
The City in their zeal to move forward with the dike from Brink Forest Products to the CN Steel Bridge bought property on the North side of River Road. How much property did they buy??? How much did they pay for this property??? Now that it appears they will not go forward with the dike, what will they do with this property? Why did they buy the property before they had the OK to borrow the money for the project.?
There was a suggestion made at a Council meeting a few weeks ago, that maybe the City could take some money from the Land Reserve Fund for roads. It was stated at that time that the Land Reserve Fund was in a negative position. What does this mean?? Why is it in a negative position. Have we spent all the money on property that we cannot resell or use??
If we are going to find money for roads, then we need to find out what is happening with our present dollars. From my perspective, it seems that we are basically out of control when it comes to spending, and have been for sometime.
Have a nice day.
Sine Nomine is on to something.
“What we have found is that the underlying financing mechanisms of the âsuburban eraââour post-World War II pattern of developmentâoperate like a classic Ponzi scheme, with ever-increasing rates of growth
required to sustain long-term liabilities. Cities and towns benefit from a growing tax base associated with new growth, however they also typically assume the long-term liability for maintaining new infrastructure.
This exchangeâa near-term cash advantage for a long-term financial obligationâis one element of a Ponzi scheme.”
-“Curbside Chat” strongtowns.org
I think that Ben’s post is more a case of serving up a healthy dose of badly needed reality.
The same blind optimism that resulted in urban sprawl,assuming 125K population by now, is now rampant in core redevelopment talk. The population forecasts for this area for the next three decades predict no or very minimal growth so where are the $$$ coming from?
With this in mind I do not see anything approaching that envisioned in the 2011 City Center Prospectus for a looooonnnnnng time. Yet the city borrows $2mil for a new office so the land is available for the river park?
The 25 year tax holiday the the current mayor lobbied for is nothing but a form of welfare(wonder if they got the idea by looking at those hanging around downtown;)Why did Original Joe’s and Mr. Mikes chose locations other than the core for their new restaurants?
Yes it is time for the city to do something about downtown….be realistic! Take a page from the Gateway’s book and start with a block or two.http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/24388/7/dbia+needs+to+talk+to+the+people+in+the+gateway
BTW Sine Nomine sprawl continues today….pipe being laid in the ground for another subdivision in University Heights last time I drove by.
If the city was so bent on improving downtown, why didn’t they turn the old hotel into housing? I mean, there were no foundation or structural problems with it that I have ever heard of. If they really wanted to get people living downtown, they really missed a big opportunity there, plus they maybe could have even turned a profit from it. I guess a few people must have thought, ‘its old, its ugly, its gotta go.’ I’m afraid this was a very bad, shortsighted decision. That old building was probably still solid as a rock, was a big part of our history and was a landmark of this city for a long time. It didn’t have to remain a hotel, it could have become nearly anything an imaginitive thinker could have come up with. Not to mention that the wood in that place was irreplaceable and nowadays probably worth over a million dollars in itself. I was very disappointed to see it not salvaged.
Just shows what corruption in politics is all about.
The downtown core will inevitably die. No one is willing to admit to it. It’s a fact that human beings rank security as one of their most important needs. Talk to most middle aged and up people, and they don’t feel safe downtown. For the most part, PG street people are harmless, but it only takes one whose off his meds to traumatize someone for the balance of their life. I moved my business out of downtown for that very reason, I was tired of being a source of loose change everytime I went for a walk, and tired of my customers enduring the same problem. Downtown is really just a massive low income housing/rehab project and the sooner we admit that, the sooner we’ll quit pouring money into that pit.
Anyone know how many of the 800K downtown condos pre-sold? Have not heard much on the hotel/condo project lately.
Downtown PG will have a slow painful death just like all the sister cities in the US with Big Box stores not in the downtown. Just pay a visit to Fort Smith ARK to see PG’s future. As a matter of fact the downtowns of both places look very similar. The only thing PG doesn’t have is Bail Bond advertising. All the tax breaks they can muster up isn’t going to help.
Palopu
I believe Norgate is the preferred location for the PAC…saw in one of the city’s plans it will spend a few hundred thou to level it in the near future.
The city plans to start buying up land along the “Patricia Blvd Greenway” that is why the old purchasing office had to go NOW. Will be another flat vacant piece of ground when new office is complete.
Reason for snapping up every piece of land in the core like CKPG……so they can bundle it for developers….laughed so hard when I read that I cracked a rib.
The core review, if it is done right, should find efficiencies and significant cost savings in service delivery. It should also point out what Ben and others have stated in many differnt ways, for a very long time….the fact that the city has been spending and borrowing beyond its means for far too long and now find themselves struggling in a deep barrel of debt with no new business developments or substantial growth in the tax base coming to PG in the foreseeable future. The city owns many lots in the downtown that sit empty for years or until a favorite gov’t run agency or private investor/friend wants it for peanuts and pays no taxes for 10 yrs, 25 if Mayor Green had her way. If new business wanted to start up in tax free downtown PG there would be no vacant lands left standing….why no buyers or interest???? maybe too many promises and favors to fill, i.e., PG Hotel land was given to the province for the WIDC building which was supposed to be the world’s tallest wood structure and now we are lucky if it reaches six stories…. and how many years before we see results there???? I agree infill is a joke with this City council. Council’s spending priorities seem all messed up and I agree with Ben that only a select few benefit from their spending while all of us pay through yearly increases in our taxes….no tax breaks for industrial development out by the airport which has been touted as being one of the greatest new future developments that will bring new business and families to PG…its all about tax free downtown PG.
This is a discussion that is going all over the place.
Why?
Easy ….
The City has a planning department and does not use it. There is no plan fro the downtown of Prince George.
Smart Growth on the Ground has some pretty pictures …. still no plan by the City of WHAT to implement and
HOW to implement it as well as
WHEN to implement it.
MyPG adds nothing new to that.
We are planless, plain and simple.
When will the City Manager and the Mayor start to understand that or, if they do understand that, face it head on and do something tangible about it?
No signs of that happening anytime soon.
City Administration and City Council are simply putting in time … input gets measured, if that, not output.
The PAC? ….. it is supposed to go somewhere downtown.
The question is, will it when we might one day get a Round Tuit?
Maybe it will get built next to the Casino with some gaming money and some addtional convention centre to rival the Civic Centre facilities.
Maybe it will get built on the Nechako River south side when the industries and much of the CN yards have been removed.
Maybe it will get built at the University right next to the Wood Innovation Centre …..
I have learned when it comes to long range planning to never assume anything, especially if there are no real plans in place and every suggestion accompanied with money to support it quickly grows legs and becomes a viable option.
While new offices may still be locating in downtown, it is not dead yet. It is simply the office cluster of several community specialty clusters.
When, however, offices move into the other clusters along the network of arterial roads such as
1. the SD did a decade or more ago when they moved from the crescents to Ferry, and
2. the BoM did when they moved to the Yellowhead site, and
3. the Northern Health offices scattered themselves all over town,
4. as did a couple of other government service offices over the years
then the last traditional land use of successful downtowns will disappear, as will downton.
At the moment we have the golf course lands to worry about.
Then there is the horse coming up from behind … a request sometime down the road, when demand might push it, to put 50,000 to 100,000 sf of office space into Westgate.
Don’t be so hard on MYPG gus…if you go to their site and click on the economic goals tab there is a picture showing that they clearly make hay while the sun shines……only problem…..gets run through the cow before we see it:)
http://mypg.ca/about/Pages/myPGEconomicDevelopmentGoalsandStrategies.aspx
Lonesome sparrow. I am not a fan of MyPG nor what its various outocmes, or lack thereof have been.
However, in respect to you, I have just spent about 20 mimnutes to follow a random thread from your url. Here is what I found.
A link to the “life in perfect balance” program.
http://liveprincegeorge.ca/Default.aspx?tabid=103
That is the job bank part and the following is the state of the links.
CNC – link works
UNBC â link works
Northern Health â link works
SD 57 â link to SD57 but has nothing to do with employment
City of Prince George â link no longer available
Canfor â link works
BC Public Service â link works
Service CANADA Job Bank â link works
BC Public Service â duplication of previous link
Wow jobs â link works
Workopolis â link works
Monster â link works
PrinceGerogeJobShop â link works
Indeed â link works
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There is a text box headed with the title News & update.
There is ONE clickable item there which is the following (as you read it, keep in mind that it is now June 2012):
Travelling World Community Film Festival
3/24/2011
A ten day film festival from around the world at Books and Company. March 18th-27th. Ticket info and a schedule at: http://www.booksandcompany.ca
==================================
Under FAQ we can see this:
What kind of entertainment is available?
From childrensâ festivals to concerts and night clubs, Prince George offers entertainment for all ages and interests
Is housing affordable?
Average MLS housing price for 2007 (remember, we have 2012 now) is $240,245
They also have the following FAQ for those interested in who provides and maintains this wonderful web site which comes from MyPG â¦.
Who provides this website for employers?
Initiatives Prince George and the Prince George Chamber of Commerce, with funding from the Government of Canada, have provided this website as a resource for Prince George employers.
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So, call me negative if you will. However, keep in mind that if a program or project sets itself up to be measured, then it needs to be measured. I just did a small component. I do not expect any other part of the implementation of the MyPG measurable objectives (I think there are very few of those, btw.) to be any better than this one. In fact, from reading their lofty goals, I expect many to be worse.
So, an indicator of how well this site, which is part of the implementation paln of MyPG works.
It is a metric which can be measured. I just measured it as a sampling. I have determined from that, it would be a waste of my time to go any further to measure anything to do with MyPG.
I find it to be totally in keeping with the state if the roads in this City.
It is a very sad state of affairs.
Will KPMG look at MyPG in and its objectives and try to measure it? I very much doubt it. They would end up dancing around the bush with political correct assessments.
I doubt the City has a team of people who monitor the implementation indicators on a annual or two year basis in order to self correct, especially early in the stages of implementation so that the thing is fine tuned and then can carry on with fewer mistakes.
I would love to know what the traffic is to that web page …. that would be another indicator. The page could also use an easy to use feedback form of how helpful it was to someone who really needs to use it.
http://mypg.ca/about/Pages/measureprogress.aspx
from teh abbove …
We are experimenting with an online tool to show you progress at the outcome level.
(The tool is under construction and measures shown will be trial measures to test options)
So this has been there for some time since I have been there before …. that is right, this is not the first time my curiosity has taken me there.
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In the future we would like to have two lists of outputs well known in the community:
A list of the actions taken by individuals and organizations in the past year.
A list of actions planned by individuals and organizations for the year ahead.
So what is holding this up? Funding? Expertise?
I too would like to do stuff in the future. However, I do not answer to anyone. City Hall does. Time to assess what they can actually do and what has to go.
The parallel is urban sprawl versus denser development.
Time to focus on what can be done and do it properly within our means!!!!
Actually, the largest issue in the last election was not downtown – except maybe to a handful of downtown business owners, realtors and developers with big plans and accumulated wealth on the backs of the great unwashed – for the other 70,000+ it was the promise of fiscal responsibility lead off with a timely, affordable and engaging core review and a council with strong leadership that worked as a team for the best interest of Prince George….gee, how’s that working so far?
The REAL shame is the disgusting amount Miz Green spent on advertising, period. Set a new record for razzle dazzle. Glad 250 got some of it while it was being thrown around in exchange for campaign promises to the elite minority & some hockey votes.
“The Delta announcement was $40 million wasn’t it”
What Delta announcement? When did Delta make that announcement?
So you figure that the proposed building just miraculously appeared after the new Council was put in place? Get a grip of reality mitch. That was in the planning stage with the previous Council and Mayor. The current ones cannot take legitimate credit for that.
And you can bet that IPG had a lot to do with it as well. Follow the dots.
Prince George who in their right mind would want to move here? Really..the roads…the dandelions, Parks that have the grass cut when they get to it…..but hey…City Hall has regular maintenance….and new trees…We are a joke! But I’m not laughing!
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