No Shortage of Discussion on Core Review Opportunities
Wednesday, October 3, 2012 @ 4:03 AM
Standing room only in the room, and more waiting in the hallway as public input session was set to get underway – photo-250NEWS
Prince George, B.C.- It was standing room only for the start of the public input session on the Core Review in Prince George last night.
The City had expected people to register their participation and prepared for just 43 people to be taking part, but more than a 100 turned out to the Civic Centre.
That meant City staff had to arrange for a third room, then split up the participants into three groups, one in each room, with a KPMG employee acting as facilitator in each of the rooms.
At issue, discussion on the 193 suggested “opportunities” for the City to make major savings, and reduce costs. The material below represents discussion that took place in one of the three rooms. It should be noted that many of the participants in this particular room identified themselves as employees of the City.
The items for discussion were put into nine categories, those categories and the main comments flowing from them are listed below:
1. City’s interaction with non profit groups: The category suggested reductions in tax exemptions, possible changes to grants and low lease rates to not for profit societies. It was pointed out to KPMG that this was an area where the City should “tread carefully, these groups look after the sick, the poor, the elderly and the disabled.” One woman who works at the Seniors Centre on 10th noted the taxes on that building are $14,000 a year and just too expensive for the Centre “If you add that to our annual costs, we are cooked.”
2. Land holdings could be sold or rezoned. Attendees felt there should have been more information on just what land the City already owns. They made it clear there was no appetite for selling off any park land.
3. Bylaws, enforcement, fine collection: The bylaws in the City are enforced on a complaint basis, but some residents agree there is an opportunity for revenue generation if bylaws were enforced with stiff penalties.
4. Fire Services, the suggestion was to reduce the staffing level at two of the fire halls: As has been the case in past surveys in the City, residents are very supportive of the service provided by the Prince George Fire Rescue Service. It is one of the big ticket items in the City’s budget, but one taxpayers are not prepared to tamper with. A reduction in staff, as has been suggested, would not be allowed under WCB rules argued one P.G. Fire Rescue Service Captain. He told the group WCB rules require that in the case of a possible rescue in a building, there must be two firefighters outside, while two others go inside. That would max out the staff being suggested for one fire hall. One woman noted the reduction in staff could also have an impact on home owner insurance. While there were questions about the duplication of services arriving at a call for medical aid, it was pointed out that Fire Rescue Services have paramedic training, and they often able to assist an injured person before an ambulance crew arrives.
5. Out sourcing/contracting out: This is a theme that appeared in a number of areas, from grass cutting to street sweeping , janitorial services to garbage pick up. The argument against this practice noted that contractors are doing the job to make money while the City is providing a service in a “not for profit” mode. Those against said the contractor will increase prices annually so there is no real cost savings.
6. Recreational fees: While it was generally accepted taxpayers would like to see children and seniors get the best break in user fees, it was also suggested perhaps those user groups who have the ability to pay, should pay more. There was concern that if user fees are boosted too high, people won’t use them at all.
7. 4 Seasons Pool: The suggestion is to contract out the pool to a private operator. But residents say pools don’t make money, they are a necessary amenity for the community and the City should continue the operation of this pool because it is an “inner city” pool accessible to those who cannot afford transportation to the Aquatic Centre. Others questioned why the City is anxious to get rid of this facility when it has just been linked to the downtown district energy system and the cost savings in heating the facility have yet to be fully realized.
8. Civic Centre: the suggestion is to sell it or sell the naming rights to the facility. This too was recognized as a civic gem, which houses everything from weddings and graduations to conventions and basketball games. Most in the room wanted to see this facility remain in the City’s control. It also boasts 40% use which is the highest of similar facilities in comparison communities.
9. Pine Valley Golf Course: The suggestion is to sell this land. Located along the fringe of the highly desirable highway 16 corridor, the property could fetch a pretty penny, but the Friends of Pine Valley, who lobbied to keep the golf course when the Prince George Golf and Curling Club lands were being examined for a new neighbourhood plan, were on hand to speak up again… They argued the property is favoured by golfing novices and seniors, who love the flat course. They had planted thousands of seedlings on the course, and argue the City needs the green space.
The opportunity to provide input to KPMG continues through the 8th of October. After that, the team will be whittling down the input and putting together its final report on what could, or couldn’t be done to save money. The report is to be delivered to the Core Review Select Committee by the end of the month, then will be delivered to Council .
Comments
It was my first core review meeting last nite. The meeting went well but I have a problem with the lack of advertising of such a meeting. There was a lot of information there and I would like to see a number of meetings on the subject of how to save the city $$$. The time aloted to the tax payer to come up with inteligent answers on how to save tax dollars is nowhere near the amount of time that our mayor and council has to spend it. If the city is concearned about the time or expence that this core review takes I suggest that if they would have been more prudent with tax payer dollars we wouldn’t be in this situation. At any rate we do need more time to find ways to save our money.
“I have a problem with the lack of advertising of such a meeting”
The City and KPMG obviously don’t have a problem with that.
The room I was in was dominated by city workers. They did not seem to have been affected by the lack of advertising.
I attended all opportunities for the public to attend as far as I can tell. They were not prepared for the crowd the previous time and they made the same mistake again.
The technical aids they they had to make it easy for people to follow the matter being discussed were primitive to say the least – no screens, no projectors, no second person to take down notes that were then visible to everyone as to what idea was captured, very little attempt to capture a sense of the number of people who were in agreement with a point made.
So according to this group that included many city employees everything is fine just the way it is, thank you very much.
Time for a reality check folks as the further we go down the road we are on the deeper and harsher the cuts will have to be to maintain basic services. The only other alternative is a massive tax hike which I’m sure would go over like a lead balloon.
If they want to justify the high wages and benefits it is time to change the mindset from “not for profit mode” to we can compete with the private sector mode, from the new city manager down.
An example,last week a city employee was preparing an a small area about 200 square feet that had been dug up for reseeding. After spreading out new soil and raking area compacted it with his boots moving sideways a few inches at a time then moving down a row, then doing it again at 90 degrees. Inefficiency at it’s finest.
A landscaping company would have hired a person with feet the size of Bozo the clown or used a ROLLER and completed the task in a fraction of the time.
It was interesting to note that 90% of the folks there were 55+ in age and there was very little representation from the young family types.
Not sure that this is going to give us a good sampling of what the community wants/needs, especially since the younger folks are going to have to live with whatever is decided for far longer, not to mention pay for it longer.
The point about the district energy system in connection with both the 4 Seasons Pool is a good one, and one I hadn’t thought of. The City has just completed a massive financial investment that may reduce costs of operating both these facilities. The Civic Centre is a well-used facility (the most used according to this article). I smell something fishy. It’s either the inability of Council to plan for the future, or some private real estate holder with dollar signs in his eyes.
A private operator would not pay union wages for grass cutting. I think the local taxpayer would accept this option for the same result, maybe better.
Inefficiency at it’s finest.
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This is not the employees fault. It goes back to the mismanagement of our City. His supervisor should provide the emplyees with the tools to do the job.
The City spends a lot of money on large equiment but fail to have it for smaller jobs. It has two vacume trucks at 500K each but cant afford a packer to fill pot holes or a roller to repair lawns.
Cheers
I also chuckle at the notion of privatizing the pool…I don’t think folks realize how BIG of money pits pools are. On top of WorkSafe MANDATED staffing (lifeguards and maintenance staff to deal with the dangerous chemicals), not to mention folks to clean up after you, there are still hundreds of thousand of gallons of water to keep heated 24/7, and loads of nasty expensive chemicals to but to keep the water “sparkling”.
I happen to be speaking with a senior YMCA employee the other day and asked if they had been approached to possibly run the pool and the answer was “No”, I also asked if they would and the answer was what I expected….”Probably not, and certainly not without a huge operating subsidy from the City”.
There is ZERO money to be made in running a pool. If you want savings the only option is to close it as no one is going to run the pool for the City at a lower cost, not without a huge subsidy, and at least not without HUGELY jacking up user fees, which will sink it anyways.
A private operator would not pay union wages for grass cutting.
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He might not pay union wages but he would certainly be looking to make a profit. The cost would be the same and would probably escalate over time.
Cheers
It still comes down to “who do you trust?”
There has been something fishy about this whole core review thing from the start, right from awarding of the contract to the company that got the contract. KPMG should change thier name to KPMG dba PPP because their focus usually comes down to privatize as much as possible. The city should have known this so what else would they have expected. Now, the question is, is this all a dog and pony show to force privatizing everything on us, and using a “core review” and its’ flawed processes to backup thier decisions. I personally think there are some people in town who are chomping at the bit to get some of these lucrative contracts who probably made substantial contributions to green and select councillors campaigns.
IF things like mowing, potholes, irrigation,, etc were to go private, who is to say the contract that is signed will be in the taxpayers favour? Do you have faith in your elected officials to put these out to tender and not paint themselves (or rather the taxpayers) into a corner they can’t get out? Will there be stipulations in the contracts that required a large percentage of the people hired to do the job be local?
The reason the city workers didn’t have any problem knowing about the input sessions is because thier union stands to lose, so I am sure they all got memos to remind them to show up in force, since a lot of union type jobs are on the line, along with thier $40.00/hr salarys, 12% holiday pay, 8 weeks paid vacation, etc etc etc.
“Will there be stipulations in the contracts that required a large percentage of the people hired to do the job be local?”
No ….. I think people are chomping at the bit to hire Mexicans and others who will be brought in for seasonal summer landscaping work housed in little huts as you see on some of the farms in the fruit growing areas, then they will be sent back home with whatever money they were able to make…….
I mean, really, does anyone believe that the people doing the actual work, whether it is driving truck or snow removal equipment, or taking care of the parks or attending to a pool will not be local people? The company may not be local, but if they get contracts here, they will have a local presence.
Just think, that new building the City is building ….. they will be able to rent that out to the private contractors …. ;-)
Retired 02
“This is not the employees fault” Spoken like a person who spent their working life breastfeeding a shovel(in some form).
These are not children going off to kindergarten whose mom has to check that they have everything they need for the day and pin home phone number under their collar,they are well paid and therefore accountable for their actions or lack thereof.
There is far too much micro management from the elected officials, do not need it in the staff. The supervisor’s job is to assign the tasks and it is up to the employee to make sure they bring the proper equipment to complete it in the most efficient manner. If the city does not have proper equipment and cannot buy or rent it then the job should be farmed out.
“It still comes down to “who do you trust?””
I think that is a very important point. Right now the City is very low on my trust meter. Definitely the lowest since I arrived here 39 years ago.
It would be interesting to take a survey to see how far I am from the norm on that one.
“City is very low on my trust meter” …maybe a method in their madness to unite the citizens of PG. K got my pitchfork will meet at Patricia Bvld tonight; bring torch:)
Lots of grey hair in that photo. Kudos to them for showing up, but it hard to talk seriously about the future when most those providing input won’t be there to see it. Where are all the young people?
Spoken like a person who spent their working life breastfeeding a shovel(in some form).
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And Lonesome is that the best opinion that you can come up with. Guess you didnt read Bens editorial yesterday. This site is about ideas not smartass remarks and criticizing the opions of others.
In the years of my employment my supervisor made sure that I had the tools to do the job and it wasnt a shovel. If I needed rental tools he did the renting it was my job to do the work.and Im not ashamed of the fact that I worked with my hands as a union member on proects that needed more then a shovel.
Cheers
Cheer
Glad to see that your supervisor spoon fed you. Hope he tucked your lunch money into your mitten too:)
I have never been through the city yard but I imagine they have a stores or tool crib where employees can get what they need to complete the job they have been assigned. This is not a sheltered workshop…do you have your shovel Johnny? Rake? Roller? OK
To have someone making around 25 bucks an hour(guess) tamping an area that big with their feet is a joke. Is that the standard practice?
I was in class last night. Full time students who work during the day and take calsses at night don’t have much extra time for meetings that conflict with class schedules. However, I did spend about an hour on the weekend putting in my opinions on the online survey. So, “young” input is being included. I also wanted to attend the Enbridge talk…rather funny that the Enbridge organizers called the city to confirm that their event would not conflict only to find out later that the city accidentally chose the same night for their event. Many of the same people wouldve attended both.
“To have someone making around 25 bucks an hour(guess) tamping an area that big with their feet is a joke. Is that the standard practice?”
I think we are being as guilty about micromanaging as Council is.
In your original statement you said an area of 200sf. You mentioned nothing about a second person being there.
200 sf is not a major area. If the soil doe not have to be smooth as may be required for parts of a golf course, using a tamping tool or feet seems to be a reasonable thing to do to me. The alternative would have been to bring a roller or a power vibrator, both of which likely would have required two people to move off the back of a truck or a truck with a mechanical lift. The roller could also have been empty and thus needed water to fill it and empty it again, under which lighter condition it could have been pulled up by a winch on ramps like those used to move ATVs up into the box.
There might be a few other ways of getting tools that weigh in excess of 40 to 50 lbs off a truck onto the ground with fewer than 2 people.
“since a lot of union type jobs are on the line, along with thier $40.00/hr salarys, 12% holiday pay, 8 weeks paid vacation, etc etc etc.”
Wow… do you have back up for that statement? I’ve worked for the City for 10 years… I don’t make even close to that much money nor do I get that much vacation! I am so sick of listening to people slam “City Workers”, we are humans too, we pay our taxes (which means we do pay our wages), we have families to support (I’m a single mom with three kids!). I can’t help but wonder how many of you attackers would become a “City Worker” given a chance…especially of the Fairy Tale $40/hr wage existed!
Three other city employees and a contractor with a bobcat working in close proximity doing site prep work. Simple hand roller more than enough as it was mainly part of a ditch that was being planted or better yet one back blade with the bobcat would have completed the job in seconds.
Call it micromanaging if you will gus but I think it is just one more example of poor use of resources observed during site prep for new community playground. I would love to see what the city’s all in cost to do this job vs what a landscape contractor would have charged.
“since a lot of union type jobs are on the line, along with thier $40.00/hr salarys, 12% holiday pay, 8 weeks paid vacation, etc etc etc.”
Wow… do you have back up for that statement? I’ve worked for the City for 10 years… I don’t make even close to that much money nor do I get that much vacation! I am so sick of listening to people slam “City Workers”, we are humans too, we pay our taxes (which means we do pay our wages), we have families to support (I’m a single mom with three kids!). I can’t help but wonder how many of you attackers would become a “City Worker” given a chance…especially of the Fairy Tale $40/hr wage existed!
Actually I routinely cross paths with city workers in my job, one day a piece of paper was laying on the ground. I picked it up to put it in the trash and being curious I glanced at it first. It was a pay stub for a city worker (whom I knew, and knew was a city worker). This persons’ wage was $32.00/hr, it had 12% holiday pay on it, and it also had 10 hrs overtime paid at time and a half, which I found strange since the total hours for the whole week was only 29. Peope who have worked at the college for 15+ years qualify for 8 weeks paid holidays when you add up thier sick time, wellness days, etc etc, so I don’t think its a stretch to think the same is possible for a city worker who has been there 15+ years. Sorry, but thats about all the prove I can offer since I am not about to name names. Talk to your union rep if you think labourers at the city don’t make that kind of money.
Sounds to me like he is a “Part Time” worker who gets 12% pay in lieu of vacation, sick time, beneftis, etc, etc.
City CUPE contract
http://www.lrb.bc.ca/cas/WUG28.pdf
This whole exercise is just a “wish” list, without any financial info. on any of the proposals, how can anyone determine the financial benefit? Once these “Hired Guns” ride off into the sunset with their $350,000, city council will have to make the hard choices, and be responsible for their decisions. Once the Pool, golf course and tennis courts are closed, they are gone forever. What sort of legacy are we leaving?
The legacy we are leaving is that we are know for our highmarking with snowmobiles in the winter and ATVs in the summer.
No whimp sports such as swimming, golfing and tennis for us … ;-)
Those high markers are fully funding the recreation activity that they enjoy(see item 6 above.)
Have not seen one group in front of council, cap in hand looking for gas money:)
Swimmers, hockey players, golfers,etc could take a lesson.
Well I see that we get to see just how hourly employees earn their wages. What I would like to see is how does Shery G. and her merry band of councilors get their 20% or what ever it was and are they worth the money?? We have a stable work force being paid a decent wage and those wages go back into our city. Thedre is contract language to protect the worker and it does a good percentage of the time. I can see that KPMG probably wants to have 3Ps That is Private Public Partnerships through out the city and I would suggest we show them the door before they run us into the poor house.
I agree with many of lonesome sparrows comments. A vast majority of the city staff are grossly overpaid and would receive far less if they were employed within the private sector. I hope the core review results in some real changes. I think we need to completely overhaul our ineffective bylaw services dept. I would like to see the city finally pass the property maintenance bylaw and start hammering the slum lords, especially in the VLA. Bylaw services could be a real money maker if they actually followed through on enforcement. I see the house on Tofield street is still a disaster, which I understand has been that way since the 90’s.
Back in the late seventies mid eighties 1978 to 1986 we had a Mayor by the name of Elmer Mercier. He was Mayor during a difficult financial time. During that time the issue of city services and privatization came up. Mayor Mercier made an interesting statement that I remember even to this day. Basically what he said was. Yes we have paid staff, but the monies earned go back into the city as employees buy houses and cars etc., and in doing so creating a micro-economy which helps the city prosper. I think the late Mayor was correct. Handing over city services to the private sector will only make a few rich, while increasing the working poor in our city.
That statement by Mercier is Bogus. If it was true then the solution to all our problems would be to hire 10,000 City workers, pay them good wages, and lets them spend the money.
The problem is. Every dollar that is earned by a City Worker, or Civil Servant is a tax dollar paid for by the taxpayers. The less we pay for Civil Servants the more money, we the taxpayers can spend on houses, cars, etc;
^^^ Bingo Palopu.
You’re assuming of course that going private is actually going to save money. The last few councils/mayor have been spendaholics, ever since kinsley terms. They don’t care who they give the money to, they just want it spent. Ok gus, with the new temporary worker bill that was passed in bill c38, why wouldn’t contractors take advantage of migrant workers if it improves thier bottom line. Don’t say it can never happen here.
Palopu – I said “micro-economy which helps the city prosper.” – I did not imply or intend that this was the “solution to all our problems” A bag full of money, sitting in some one’s bank account, doesn’t do anyone any good, not even the owner, until it is spent. Circulating money generates wealth, sending big dollars to a private industry only to come back as minimum wage jobs does not generate wealth but rather poverty. At the end of the day the city has to hire someone to deliver services that we as city dwellers and tax payers all want. What should they get paid…minimum wage?
“why wouldn’t contractors take advantage of migrant workers if it improves thier bottom line”
There is talk of that.
a Scenario
1. seasonal forestry workers
2. tough physical manual labour living in motels and camps
3. students have been willing to do it.
4. better paying jobs becoming available to students for summer jobs with less physical work and more in their area of studies
5. less summer workers available
6. need is there for labourers but fewer people willing to do it.
7. bring in foreign workers.
This is a plausible scenario which may happen shortly.
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