I don’t give a hoot about the Pine Valley golf course and would be pleased if it was sold.

I’d like to see how they came up with the $0.05/per resident cost annually. I doubt they factored in the opportunity cost of not selling it, developing it, investing the legacy funds. Probably didn’t factor in the $1.3million or so of upgrades it needs either. Who is going to pay for that?

I’m disturbed me to learn that Council is thinking of using the proceeds to build a PAC though and of course getting us deeper in debt too because that project was $43 million if I recall correctly.

If Council moves on building a PAC, I will become a very active and vocal advocate of having those engaged in this irresponsible behaviour tossed out.

The most disturbing part of the whole story is the admission by a councillor that the future development of the city and spending of millions of tax dollars is taking place essentially behind closed doors in these brown bag lunches…..wonder if it is anything like the brown envelope that take place in Laval PQ.

One more shovel of dirt thrown on the grave of the open and transparent civic government promised before last election.

The annual cost to taxpayers for a PAC in Prince George would be approx. $400,000.00 per year. This is based on a similar PAC in Nanaimo BC where the City pays 32% of the operating cost,. Prince George would be worse off, because of our winters, people from out of town would be less inclined to travel to Prince George in the Winter.

They came up with the $0.05/per resident based on the net cost of operating Pine Valley last year which was $4200.00. Based on the **bloated figure** of 81000 residents this would be about .05 cents per person. The figure was thrown out to show how little money it actually costs the City to keep this Golf course, and of course there is a good chance that they will make more in the future with more people retiring.

The $1.3 Million in upgrades is the Cities number, the number from other people in the know is approx. $300,000.00. Don’t forget that the Cities upgrade would include, 1. Consultant, 2. Engineers, 3. Architect, 4. Contractors, 5. Landscapers, etc; etc; etc;.

Sine Nomine. Investing in legacy funds?? What world do you live in??? The surplus funds, from the sale of land will go to infrastructure, and the Performing Arts Centre. The Cities portion of the Performing Arts Centre would be in the area of $15 Million, so don’t expect to have much money available to invest in a legacy fund.

If you want to talk legacy funds, you might ask City Hall how they are doing with the Terasen Gas Legacy fund. In 2020 we were told that there would be a legacy fund, of some $20 Million dollars. Seems this is not necessarily so, because if Terasen renews the present lease in lease out, contract then we don’t get the $20 million pay out. We only receive this money if the contract is terminated. Plus we are receiving less money because of the decline in natural gas prices.

In fact we contribute to our own loss, by heating our buildings with hot water, when we have a vested interest in using gas.

What a web we weave.

if this story is true then there is some questionable ethical conduct by some on council.

can anybody confirm a majority of council met privately with representatives from the PAC? When did that meeting take place and who attended? Any such meeting that has a majority of council attending has to be public and public notification has to be given. If this secret meeting took place without proper notification then council broke the law.

What is further concerning is the reference that during that potentially illegal private meeting someone on council made a suggestion about offering up some money from the sale of this land for the PAC, perhaps to try and win favour with this special interest group?

and just who on council suggested keeping the tax levy for the Canadian Games in place after it expires? would that member of council please come clean?

it appears this council would prefer to meet behind closed doors rather than be transparent and have discussions about public issues in public.

The tax levy for the games is set to be reduced next year by a million i think and gone altogether the following year.

Before they go crazy spending our money they might want to consider giving us poor taxpayers a bit of a tax break. That would sure be nicer than making a secret deal to quietly funnel some of the money to a pet project.

I take issue with some of your numbers, Palopu.

Based on the report they put out mid-2012 on the performing arts centre, the annual net operating cost to the City is projected at $300,000 and the construction costs they’re tossing around in this report exceed $40million. You’d want to add to that operating cost the annual sum required to service the debt associated with building this monstrosity.
http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/Agendas/2012/2012_06_25/documents/Rpt_Performing_Arts_Cntr_Report.pdf

Like I said, the $0.05/per capita operating cost is a bit misleading. Not sure where the $4,200 net operating cost figure came from but it’s dubious irregardless. You have to factor in the opportunity costs and the estimated cost of future capital upgrades and maintenance. The point I was trying to make is that it costs money now, but could instead generate revenue and a legacy fund. And these types of facilities already exist in and around the city, so I see Pine Valley as a duplication and a waste of taxpayer money albeit not the greatest waste going these days.

If the golf course is zoned parkland, I believe too that Council is limited in what it can do with any potential proceeds. I believe that there are strict rules surrounding the disposition of parkland. I’m not going to go digging through the Community Charter tonight, but it seems to me that those proceeds would have to be held in reserve with a specific mandate of purchasing parkland and I don’t think the building of or even the purchase of the land for a PAC would qualify as an appropriate use of parkland funds. I could be wrong though. Worth looking into though.

Even if the City and Fortis agree to continue with the lease agreement, the debt taken on by the City will be paid for by then so any funds flowing from Fortis would be a net benefit to the City either way, one would just be drawn out over a longer time horizon which might be the better choice based on how Council likes to spend our money. According to the 2011 Annual Report (p. 48) the projected legacy is close to $30million, not $20million.

“In fact we contribute to our own loss, by heating our buildings with hot water, when we have a vested interest in using gas.”

You might want to rethink that statement. Once you do, I think you’ll see it doesn’t make sense. We have a vested interest in using gas, so we can get the marginal kickback on the profits involved in natural gas we consume? Peanuts. I think I see where your hostility comes from there though and I share it. That project was a completely hair-brained idea that I predict will be a big financial loser overall.

Psst wrote “can anybody confirm a majority of council met privately with representatives from the PAC?”

Sure, anyone that follows the activities of Council in this City that has a good memory or a good search engine and the knowledge of how to use it can confirm that.

A report presented to Council in June 2012 is located on the City Web Site. It was prepared for the City of Prince George Downtown Partnership.
http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/Agendas/2012/2012_06_25/documents/Rpt_Performing_Arts_Cntr_Report.pdf

The following statement is made at the end of the report:
The site analysis contained in the Dialog Report is mentioned in this report and the appendices list; however, as the content remains in-camera with City Council, it is not included as an attachment at this time.

Interesting how the city staff did not even screen this prior to releasing it in open meeting. The actual topics discussed are not supposed to be identified outside of an in-camera meeting. Oh well. Anyone who has followed the controversial project knows that there were several locations looked at and that they were discussed in-camera. That is the City’s normal process.

A proposed funding formula was presented to Council in one year prior to the above meeting. It is located here:
http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/Agendas/2011/2011_06_27/documents/Cty_Mngr_Performing_Arts_Centre.pdf

It states the following:

•A Phase One application by the City would be premised on a conceptual capital budget of $42.5 million. The financing concept would not rely on capital financing (borrowing) by the City. City land asset values, including the Prince George Playhouse lands would be leveraged toward a capital contribution share by the City, to be defined as the P3 model is fully developed in the subsequent P3 phase

•A Phase One application would identify a notional annual operating budget of approximately $1 million, of which $700,000 would be earned revenue. Solutions to the operating deficiency would be evaluated within the context of the P3 model including the potential for commercial arrangements with an equity partner selected through the P3 procurement process

•If supported by Council, a Phase One application would characterize the proposed project as the City’s centennial facility project, in recognition of the City’s 2015 centenary.

=================================
So psst …. you were saying something about ethics and breaking the law ….

The issue is this belongs to the citizens of Prince George, bought and paid for by the citizens AND zoned park land. Any changes should not be made by politicians. This property should not even be considered available for sale. Our Council and Mayor is out of control, imo. Talk about half-baked.

the mayors comments about being in the golf business are bizarre because the city isn’t in the business it simply provides the land and has a private contractor operating his business for a fee. it is just more spin from someone who is getting pretty famous for political spin. remember the infamous statement about cutting our taxes by 10%. LOL My house taxes went up 5% last year and almost the same this year.

If she really thinks the city shouldn’t be supporting recreation then I am sure she will also table a report that calls on council to cancel the tax exemption (our tax subsidy) for the pg golf and curling club and the maybe while she is at it she will also recommend scraping the big tax break the YMCA also gets. After all the city shouldn’t be in the business of recreation.

BTW, in my opinion it would be virtually impossible to build a PAC as envisaged 2 years ago for anywhere near $45million in, say, 2015/2016. nly construction cost, sure, but the figure shown in the report was to be an all inclusive figure without site costand landscaping cost an d any parking that will likely be required.

The full project cost which is used in today’s calculations would include architect, engineer and project management fees.

I expect the total project cost as originally envisaged would be back to the original $50million quoted some 6 or so years ago.

Typically the City would have to contribute about $15 million with the rest coming from feds, province and private fundraising. There was no cost sharing with the building of the RCMP monument, so we end up having to pay for the total cost on that one.

The cost to operate the functions depends on the quality of the spatial design, the expertise of the general manager, and the support of the city and regional community to participate in the planned events as well as ongoing fundraising efforts. With the events team we have operating the CN Centre the PAC could very well be a success and require little if any support from the City.

Too many people are under the impression that because a municipal property is zoned P1 for Park that it cannot be rezoned.

Unless the property is protected by registering it with the Land Registry as one of several types of park as defined in the Park Act, or is protected under a form of conservation easement registered on the title, the municipality can rezone at will after a public hearing.

We all know the recent history of Council with respect to who is more important with such rezoning issues.

The Act
http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96344_01#section5

Registered Park categories

category 1, if the main purpose of the park is the preservation of its particular atmosphere, environment or ecology;

category 2, if the main purpose of the park is the preservation and presentation to the public of specific features of scientific, historic or scenic nature;

category 3, if the main purpose of the park is to offer enjoyment, convenience and comfort to the travelling public;

category 4, if the main purpose of the park is to offer recreational opportunity to the public of a particular community or area;

category 5, if the main purpose of the park is to offer opportunities to participate in a specific recreational activity;

category 6, if the park has 2 or more purposes.

I doubt we have any registered parks such as Fort George, Rainbow, etc.

We are open for development anywhere, anytime …. :-)

I am dismayed by the top priority that is given by mayor and council to the borrowing of money for a PAC! Recent statements by city officials insist that even with the latest increases in our taxes only about half the money is put into road repair and remediation that would be required from keeping them from falling apart further. They say that unless we double the annual budget amount for roads they will always be a major problem.

Why is borrowing for an entertainment facility not a problem (very cool) and doing the same for vitally important roads not even on the radar (out of the question)?

I would not be surprised to learn that Pine Valley has already been sold! Car lot anyone? I really hope that future generations enjoy the pavement.
PG retirement not for me, anymore.

A PAC? Are these people for real? The city is going broke, they can’t keep up on paving the streets properly, a PAC isn’t needed it is a luxury and we already have a facility where artists perform. We don’t need another one. Talk about a 2% mentality!!

Pave paradise and put up a parking lot are your kidding me. Wonder how many of these people actually spend a dime at pine valley or are they looking for something new to complain about. If all these people seem to be against pine valley sale maybe they should be out on the course cause rarely when i drive by there is anyone out there

“rarely when i drive by there is anyone out there”

We do not have snowgolf anymore. :-(

“Councillor Lyn Hall said the Pine Valley lands are a part of a group of properties that are being discussed, hence, the reason for a closed meeting – because a developer could be named.”

So the reason for the closed discussion is because a developer could be named. Wow!!! So exactly why would that be a reason?

We knew a couple of the developers who were interested in the PG Golf and Curling Club property. Is that why it is not sold today and the club moved to that golf course heaven off Foothills?

I mean, we have to make sure that Council is talking to the right people. After all, look at what happened with Majors and the Casino, and then Commonwealth, and then the Province.

I mean, if the posters on 250News would have known from the start who the City was dealing with the collective here would have been able to provide much better advice. ……. ;-)

Discuss the Pine Valley property sale in the open. Let the people have a say. If the decision is made in an open meeting to sell, we will know how everyone voted … and then the land can be given an upset price and put on the auction block with the property being sold to the best bidder.

As a taxpayer and non golfer I have no issues with adding a few bucks to my tax bill to keep Pine Valley as a golf course.
PG city council has a horrible track record when it comes to spending money wisely. the northern sports center eats up a 1/2 million a year of taxpayer money, 40 million for a police station, a money losing energy purchase agreement with lakeland mills, and now comes lets use some of the money from the sale of Pine Valley for a PAC.
Green has a number of her supporters sending out letters requesting people write letters of support for the sale of Pine Valley to counteract the save the Pine Valley group with the premise the funds would be used for roads, etc, but no mention of the money losing PAC proposal.

The Mayor is on record stating that the money from the sale of land on Highway 16 West (Which includes Pine Valley) will go to the Land Reserve Fund, and then transferred on an annul basis to the Capital Projects Fund. She has stated that it will not be spent on roads. Money for roads will come from the road levy.

We also understand that the money from the sale of the Playhouse Theatre will go toward the building of a PAC. Will some of the money from the PV sale go to the PAC?? Who knows. If not what will this money be used for?? What capital project?

The City will contribute the land for the PAC, and will try to consolidate another $10/15 Million as its portion of the cost of the PAC. They will do this for the most part through land sales.

The City will not give us a referendum on the building of a PAC, and if they dont have to borrow the money, then we cannot have an alternative approval process, so in effect they can build the PAC without any approval from taxpayers.

THATS THE NAME OF THE GAME. AVOID REFERENDUM AND ALTERNATIVE APPROVAL PROCESS ON THE PERFORMING ARS CENTRE, BECAUSE THEY MIGHT LOSE.

This facility would never generate $700,000.00 per year. That number is based on Voodoo projections, asinine conclusions, and preconceived assumptions.

We need only to look at the Northern Sports Centre to see how these projections work. They projected revenue of $900,000.00 initially before it was built. They have a shortfall in revenue of $600,000.00 per year.

Have a nice day.

Rest assured that a PAC will increase your taxes.

the common opinion/rumour is that PV golf course is desired by the auto retail industry..does wood wheaton want to expand ?? seems to be poor planning as they relocated here by choice..does northland want the location as they do not own their present home ?? I agree with palopu where the present council wants to avoid a referendum..if somehow we lose PV then the next civic election will be our referendum and present councillors will face the wrath of the voter in my opinion .

Northland Dodge / Hyundai want it. Rumour is that it’s already a done deal, the city is just going through the motions of making it look like they’re doing the right thing and listening to the people. Just like everything else they do – put on a show and hope that the taxpayers fall for it.

People should look at Pine Valley Golf Course in the context of how it will look 10 years from now. It has been devastated by the Pine Beetle, however in 10 years it will bounce back. The tree’s etc; have already been planted.

Once this Course is back to its original form, it will be great asset to the City.

We need to quit selling of our prime green spaces for commercial interests. We have plenty of land available for development, without using park land.

In 10 years they will be not much more than 15 feet tall unless they planted poplars. Golf balls will not even know the trees are there.

Golfing is great….gives you some exercise, fresh air, maybe some sunshine….everything people do not get enough of these days!

I agree with you Walter 198

I do not golf but as a taxpayer we need all types of facilities to attract people to move to our city.
This includes ball parks, ice rinks, swimming pools, Civic buildings,BMX parks, tennis courts, curling rinks, etc.
Another car lot will not do that.
Youth, adults, and seniors need something to do that is affordable and easy place to learn. The facilities that are in business need a place for people to develop there skills as the good players will not be wanting to follow a group the do not have the skill to play a bigger course.
It might be time to realize we can never get it back, then what.
Youth that have nothing to do start hanging out, next thing there in trouble which continues into adult life.
Maybe we need the people that want it for a Car lot to see that there are many other spots to expand without helping destroy our City. Or just start boycotting those business till they get the message.

I see people there a lot when I drive by! And, people did show up last night, like about 300 to show that they want the coarse to stay open…..they are complaining because they have a reason to!!!!!!!!!! They like to golf….you may not so don’t complain!

Prime green spaces are not surrounded by highways. Prime green spaces are close to water and escarpments, etc.

Well, never on, this is VERY well said!!! You said the absolute truth…it sounds like you care a great deal for our city. Thank you.

This is not looking like a place to retire AT ALL!!!!!!

“Youth, adults, and seniors need something to do that is affordable and easy place to learn”

Car lots are great places to learn all about the latest consumer toys. You can kick some tires, sit in them, look at all the different options, look under the hood and follow the wires and play knowledge games of how motors work, and even look under the cars if you are a real car hobbiest.

And….. it is totally free.

I for one would love to see the golf course sold it is prime real estate and with a lot of people bitching about having to drive to the ends of the city for goods and services it makes perfect sense to turn the golf course into shopping and light industrial use.

You generate a lot more revenue through shopping and services than catering to a certain class of people as you do with golf.

Bit of a stretch to say that Pine Valley is surrounded by Highways. The only Highway that is remotely close, is 16 West.

It is surrounded by Commercial car lots and Super Store along 16 West. Cosco and residential to the South. Schools, Churches, Residential to the South West, and PG Golf and Curling Club, and Commercial business to the North.

So it is surrounded by Highway 16, Range Road, Westwood Drive, and Ferry Avenue. Mostly residential, commercial.

No need for any further development, as it is perfect as it is. In fact if they sell Pine Valley, you can rest assured that the School in the area, will be next.

Residents in that area had better wake up, or they will be looking out at a carlot, or hamburger joint in their back yard someday.

Follow the bouncing ball.

Downtown development reserve fund – was created in 2003 (Kinsley) to receive all funds from sale of HWY16 corridor lands. Rationale, in my opinion, was sound in that HWY 16 corridor land sales would boost commercial development more appropriate along major transportation corridors and support urban sprawl even when it is infill of sorts. So, to counteract the urban sprawl tendencies, the concept was to use the money gained to improve downtown business and residential areas.

With the new age Council and Mayor which were put in place by funding from business preferring auto dealerships one of the directives sent to administration was to undo the 2003 bylaw and replace it with a bylaw which would put the proceeds from Hwy16 corridor into a general Land development reserve fund. This effectively perpetuates the City in the role of a land owner in order to assist in the role of shaping the city.

So, the notion of a 9 hole golf course was not lost. I believe that it was supposed to be relocated to the PGGCC land when that course moved to the north of the Nechako and the land developed for some commercial as well as housing and local park. That does not seem to be happening. Thus, I fail to understand why the Pine Valley course lands are up for sale at this time.

I really wish that someone at City Hall would communicate with people who pay taxes for operating a City to our wishes, so that we can see whether they are or are not before it is too late to take action. THAT is why transparency is needed in these matters. Make it easier for us to follow the pea under the thimbles. This is not a game that should try to deceive the audience.

http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/agendas/2012/2012_10_01/documents/Rpt_West_Corridor_Land_Sales_Proceeds_MERGED.pdf

http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/agendas/2012/2012_10_29/documents/BL8478_Downtown_Development_Reserve_Fund_Transfer_and_Repeal_Bylaw.pdf

you are exactly right Dearth! While we are at it, lets get rid of the bike park – surely shopping would generate more revenue than that. How about the minor girls and boys softball fields? Looks like a mall would fit there too. Maybe the kin centers could be turned into department stores, that would ensure more revenue than that pesky class of people that plays hockey could ever bring in! The ice oval could be levelled for parking for the new department stores. Massich place stadium should go away too, I mean why are we catering to that special interest group when we could turn it into something that would create revenue?

The super block in which the golf course sits is bounded by is surrounded by

Westwood, Range, Ferry HWY 16

The first tow are collectors, and the last two are arterials.

There is a road stubbed out at Superstore which aligns with Rec Place Drive ready to be developed through to Range Road. Until the Gof course gets sold, there will be no need for this road.

The die was cast some time ago. In my mind the sequencing is off.

The golf courses are neither a New York Central Park or a Stanley Park. Get over it and build a legacy elsewhere.

It seems no one understands my point above. NONE of the parks in this city are protected by being registered as such on the land registry throuhg one of several processes which are available.

As we have learned, an OCP and Zoning designation mean squat.The current Mayor and Council and pat mishandling of funds related to infrastructure build for sprawl city and the lack of maintenance are ample proof of why some key parks need to be protected.

The major sustainable park we have in this City is Fort George right through to the western end of Hudson Bay Slough.

Cottonwood is not sustainable for any development since it floods. It needs to be treated as a natural reserve with an educational purpose included.

Connaught is too small and has poor accessibility. Great views. Needs a serious effort to improve the northern part so that views are opened up to the downtown part of the City with cutbanks behind. The yellow stairs need to be extended to the top and lit at night for aesthetics and security. Resting places need to be added.

Alternatively, one can look at how some of the communities in Europe do it. Here is the pathway up the steep hill to the Vaduz Castle with the view of Vaduz in Lichtenstein.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27108337@N03/6937453396/sizes/l/in/photostream

Golfing is a business. There are many in town. The City should not be in the business of golfing. Maybe someone will buy the land from the City to operate a golf course.

but the City should be in the Performing Arts business, eh Gus? ;)

You got it right interceptor because that is a city business in virtually all communities in Canada that have one. Of course, I am including the not-for-profit operations set up by cities in order to get around the union situation.

There are a few cities, such as Guelph, which have a department which operates their centre.

You get 100% for knowing that. Thanks!!!

Oh, BTW, the productions are not publicly run. Those are private operations which are either home based or touring companies. They rent community facilites.

Stratford is one of the exceptions. They are also the only one, or one of the very few who operate in the black …… but with various arts subsidies from the feds and other sources as well.

BTW, TNW has an earned income of over $400,000/year plus over $100,000 private donors on an annual budget of over $900,000. So the comment Palopu made about $700,000 gross revenue from ticket sales and non-government additional funding sources is a bit far fetched.

TNW runs 4 productions a year with ticket prices in the $25 range and seating capacity of 250 or so.

To say that a facility with superior specifications which will allow national and international talent to come here as they do to the Civic Centre with people paying considerably more than $25/ticket is really showing a lack of understanding of the business.

The figures provided by the Society’s consultants are conservative to the extreme.

Seen on past pages ……

========================
Posted by: He spoke on February 27 2011 1:31 PM
hmmm, Christy becomes premier, and we get a army reserve….. hmmmm I wonder what that could be about
======================

Can you make the connection, Prince George? ;-)

Gus. Give us a break. If this golf course was a business, then why would they City run it for over 30 years??? Lets not get baffled by bullshit. This is a City owned Golf course run by a contractor that over the years has paid the City hundreds of thousands of dollars, in that sense only is it a business. Its purpose is to provide recreation opportunities to the Citizens of Prince George.

We know for a fact that the PG Golf and Curling Club cost the City at least $2 Million over the same period, just in tax exemptions.

In addition the Northern Sports Centre will cost us millions in tax revenue just to keep it open.

Hockey franchise’s are also a business, however it seems we can keep the Couger Franchise even though it costs us millions in lost revenue.

Furthermore the Performing Arts Centre will cost us a fortune in taxes to keep it running.

Lets not muddy the water. The City wants to sell this land to developers because that’s what they do. The don’t give a s..t who it effects. Haldi road is a good example, so is BK Bottle depot, etc;

Any taxes collected from the sale and commercialization of Pine Valley, will go to offset the huge operating costs of a Performing Arts Centre.

The City has a responsibility to all taxpayers in the City, not just commercial interests, and its time they took their responsibility seriously.

Have a nice day.

but.. but… golf is a city business in many communities too… I would go so far as to say there are more municipal golf courses than thier are PACs, no?

To give you an example of how we are getting screwed on Pine Valley.

The City of Qualicum has a 9 hole City owned Golf Course right on the ocean,. This course is rented from the City and run by a board of directors etc;

If the City wanted to sell this course out from under the people of Qualicum they would be tarred and feathered and run out of town. The notion would be UNACEPTABLE.

Its only because Prince George is so Provincial that they think that residents are too stupid to realize what is taking place here. The City in simplistic terms is taking advantage of the people at Pine Valley because they think they can get away with it.

Its just that simple.

Awww…tis all stupid!! Exercise means nothing anymore I guess.

BCRacer. Opinion 250, CKPG News, the Citizen and I believe the Free Press. In addition the Mayor, and 7 Councillors showed up.

The City got the property from the Federal Government for nothing, however it was to be used for recreational purposes.

Your tax dollars don’t pay for Pine Valley, however they will be used to pay for the running of the PAC, and also as a subsidy for business. (Cheap Land) compliments of the taxpayers of Prince George.

The concept of a City owned recreational golf course for Seniors, Juniors, Special needs, and School Children seems to elude you.

Take some time to think about it before you start complaining.

To see what actually happens to a PAC even in a large populated city:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/05/23/bc-the-centre-for-performing-arts-sale.html?cmp=rss

PAC closing in Vcr. The word is it is no big loss.
The civic election is not that far away and the sale is not critical at this time. Put the sale of PV on the ballot. The only fair way to do it and let the taxpayer have a say in the matter.
Doubtful Green and a few of her gang of sheep will be re-elected anyway given their inability to govern the city with any semblance of common sense.

Thanks for the info Loki. Seems the Playhouse in Vancouver cant make a go of it.

I wonder why some people in Prince George would think that we could make it work.

We face bigger problems than Vancouver not the least of which is a smaller population. People from the outlying areas would not be in a big hurry to travel to Prince George for a performance in the Winter, and of course during the summer they have other things to do.

The Performing Arts Center Society, needs to find a way to make this PAC viable, other than depending on tax dollars.

Perhaps $10 or $20 Million dollars donated by those who have made millions in Prince George could be invested and the money used to cover operating costs.

We could give them a plaque showing their donations, etc;

The City portion of the cost of the center could come from the sale of the Playhouse Theatre property, and some other land sales in the City, plus donate the property it would be built on, without sacrificing Pine Valley, that way it could be a win, win.

There are many, many, people in this City who made millions over they years, that I am sure would love to be able to give something back. This would be their chance.

Loki, I just finishd reading that article of the Pac in Vancouver closing, it seems from the onset that it was not successful.

Regarding Pine Valley, leave it alone. It is a great asset to the city. I learned to golf there, my grandson did, and now my great grandson is taking up he sport.

Pine Vally has had kids as youg as 5 as long as they can carry their own clubs, and it is a easy walk as it is for me (almost 70 now) I can take my great grandson 7 and we have a great afternoon. can’t do that a any of the other courses, exept Yellowhead, we can do almost 9 rounds there. They also have a policy,as long as they can carry their clubs they can play.

So Mayor and council leave it alone. I know from the past you do not listen to the people of Prince George, but maybe, just maybe you can start,

Read the article people. It is a very good one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garth_Drabinsky

Drabinsky was basically a talented scheister. He worked internationally in the USA and Canada. He was addicted to Broadway plays. He convinced North York to build a true performing arts centre with three venues from Broadway to concert hall and an “intimate” theatre located in the heart of Mel Lastman’s North York city centre development.

With the amalgamation of Metro Toronto’s several cities and boroughs into the GTA government, the new city administration was faced with too many theatres to operate and wanted to demolish it and sell off the land to developers for apartments, offices, etc. There was a catch. The land was given to the City with a condition of use registered against it in the land registry that the land could only be used for the performing arts. So, the GTA is stuck with it.

The Ford theatre was built with the money from some US Dentists who originally owned the theatre. It has had financial problems almost from the start. Poor management trying to operate a single theatre will do that for you.

Please, do yourself a favour and quit being so provincial. Start to understand the theatre business in Canada and the difference between a multi venue Performing Arts Centre which has lots of flexibility and a single theatre, such as the Ford Theatre in Vancouver. And learn what is the difference between an auditorium such as Vanier Hall and a Theatre. GO and look at the back doors of the CN Centre and then look at the back doors of Vanier Hall. Watch a production come in with its trailers to unload the stage lighting and sets and scratch your heads wondering how the heck anyone would ever get that into Vanier Hall.

Once you have educated yourselves, then lets discuss how to make sure that we build the right centre and get the right operators here so that it will be as successful as the CN Centre is with attracting those events which need such a facility to play to audiences of 4,000+

Some people love to play golf, some love to watch hockey, others love to watch a play, and then there are those who have enough money and time an interest to paticipate in all such events and more.

You are not the only ones living in this community.

Palopu wrote: “I wonder why some people in Prince George would think that we could make it work.”

Get rid of your bias, put your thinking cap on and figure it out. There are no guarantees in life. But prudent people can come up with a venue which can work in PG.

Theatres are no different than any other piece of infrastructure. They have to be maintained and they have to be renewed.

We built a school auditorium because a generous Minister of the Crown gave it to this community in the early 1960’s. At that time I was in a HS in Ottawa that was brand new and had a proper theatre built with it, as did every HS in Ottawa at that time. It had a fly tower, green rooms, a proper seating plan, good sized stage and overhead doors large enough to bring props in.

The high school was demolished about 3 years ago because of population shifts in a growing City. A shopping centre developer bought it since the population shift and our consumerism has created the want for more box stores and little ticky tacky boutiques with offices and condo high rises and starbucks, all adorned with fake wood and stone.

Things change all over the place for the better or for worse except in Afghanistan. ;-)

BTW, the people of Vancouver have other things on their mind with “cultural venues”. The plan to build a new art gallery next to the QE has been removed from the shelves and is being dusted off. With the rapid growth of the GVRD, the plan was not on the shelves all that long.

It was shelved because the plan was to build a new federal office building in conjunction with the two develoments. The feds were not interested. The population expansion is towards the east now with hammerhead cranes working away building new condos north of False Creek and locking in BC Place Stadium.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/city-land-deal-gives-green-light-for-a-new-vancouver-art-gallery/article11540518

A PAC developer in our town?

Commonwealh PAC Inc. with Fehr making sure he gets what he would consider to be a fehr advantage to get the construction contract …… from sawmills and highways to advanced wood low rise office buildings to PACs … a natural progression if I ever saw one.

Of course we would have to wait for the Green party to become the government in BC ….. a long wait to get a PAC which should make everyone on 250NEWS happy.

I am watching another bridge collapse aftermath in Washington State right now. About 60 years old. Infrastructure needs to be maintained.

Either a truck hitting a main girder or metal fatigue I would guess.

I read that earlier in my iPad. If the city keeps putting off the shear strengthening of the girders in the Foothills bridge it may wind up in the water. The project was started in 2006 and should have been completed by now-stuck at 25% since 06 :(

Gus i am not sure if you are still following this thread but a couple of points to follow up on. The first is on the potential private meeting the PAC got with Council. It was just recently held and apparently called a brown bag meeting (what ever the hell that is). They can’t meet in private like that unless there is a formal meeting with proper notification. Doesn’t appear to have been done in this case.

and yes you are right, parkland can be rezoned and sold off. The point is the city has to use the same public process for that type of land-use discussion as they would demand from any developer.

So why are they talking about it in an in-camera meeting rather than discussing it in open session and adhering to the same rules they expect others to follow like holding neighbourhood meetings and beginning a public discussion on possible land use options. These are all steps required to rezone property and change a neighbourhood plan that they just adopted a couple of years ago.

It appears so far on this issue that the power brokers prefer to have discussions and make decisions behind closed doors and be dammed with what the law says.

Well all this sounds well and good, however we always seem to forget the fact that this City is in debt up to its ass, and has a very serious infrastructure problem.

In addition it has a credibility problem. We need only to look at the Airport,Police Station, Community Energy System, Northern Sports Centre, Boundry Road, Soon to be constructed WIDC, and of course off in the wings, the ever present, PAC.

None of these ventures do anything to maintain the status quo on taxes, and in fact will raise them. In addition most Government employee’s Provincial, Municipal, etc; will be looking for raises in their income and benefits.

The City is frozen in time, and has done nothing to create employment, or bring in new business for the past 15/20 years. Every major project is funded by tax dollars. The cost of running the City increases every year, with no appreciable increase in the tax base. If anything it has been reduced.

We continue to live the lie. Ie; things are going to get better, and everything will come up roses. Sounds like the theme of the Liberals election campaign.

We really don’t need all this s..t. What we need is a long vacation for those people who’s only concern seems to be the spending of tax dollars.

This City is a basket case. The sooner we get back to basics the sooner we can fix the problem. Spending $50 Million dollars for 500 people to watch a show is not the answer. Spending $25 Million for a Wood Innovation Building could only be dreamed up by politicians. They certainly would not invest any of their own money in this project.

What we need in this town is a in depth audit of City spending over the last 20 years. Im sure this audit could if done properly show without a doubt that we have wasted over $100 Million dollars on absolute BS.

Have a nice day.

lonesome sparrow.

Here is the inspection report from 3 years ago

UPDATE 7:34 PM: Based on witness reports and the above photo, it sounds like they’re talking about this bridge, which was built in 1955 and which Bridgehunter.com says got a satisfactory rating back in 2010:

Inspection (as of 08/2010)
Deck condition rating: Satisfactory (6 out of 9)
Superstructure condition rating: Fair (5 out of 9)
Substructure condition rating: Satisfactory (6 out of 9)
Appraisal: Functionally obsolete
Sufficiency rating: 57.4 (out of 100)

Average daily traffic (as of 2010)
70,925

The superstructure collapsed … it was given a fair rating. With the amount of truck traffic highways get these days that is just not good enough … a glitch here by an inspector ….. a gltich there by maintenance …. a few more overload trucks … down she goes….

This is not only a US issue but also a Canadian issue and a local issue as you remind us of.

Palop wrote: “We continue to live the lie. Ie; things are going to get better, and everything will come up roses. Sounds like the theme of the Liberals election campaign.

We really don’t need all this s..t. What we need is a long vacation for those people who’s only concern seems to be the spending of tax dollars.”

I could swear that the liberals put out a budget which is not a lie.

It was the NDP that were going to spend more and tax more for the first few years at least until people realized that it was a new NDP and evertything in BC was coming up roses, as the song goes …. LOL

Sorry, politics do nothng for me until someone shows me what they are made of …..

We have seen that municipally once more, but it will not change at the next election because everyone will show us fantasy land again on election day.

PSST wrote: “and adhering to the same rules they expect others to follow like holding neighbourhood meetings and beginning a public discussion on possible land use options.”

The city does not hold neighbourhood meetings anymore. They was cancelled by the city a couple of years ago around the time of the last civic election. The last two – one held on the Hart and the other in Beaverly. The Haldi people requested several times to have a neighbourhhod meeting with the city and were turned down. They were told not until after the election and then found out all neighbourhood meetings were cancelled/dropped/non-existant.

Do you really think this city actually cares what neighbourhoods think? I am surprised all the people are not called NIMBYs

One reason for not holding neighbourhood meetings the city gave the Haldi people was it cost to much.

People are loosing their democratic rights and are being stiffled in this city in my opinion.

Since when was Canada a communist country?

Let’s be honest, a true ‘neighborhood meeting’ would have an open exchange of ideas where all views are tolerated.

But let’s face it, the ‘meeting’ would be all about the protest of the development and nothing more. Nothing productive would come of it, so why waste time on it?

I say keep the golf course. I here some on here saying why should the city be in the golfing “business”… ummm… maybe because the city is into the hockey business?

Both are recreational activities NOT businesses! This city is suppose to provide recreational activities for it’s citizens, it’s a big part of choosing to live here!

The city of Burnaby own and operates a golf course, what’s the big deal?

http://www.burnaby.ca/Things-To-Do/Golf-Courses/Central-Park-Pitch-and-Putt.html

GUS; The yellow stairs plan is a good one,but as you go to the top of the stairs and look to the right its all bush. The City has been asked many times, clear out the brush to make it safe for people walking up the stairs ,I guess they don’t have time.