useless city workers

0,0,2, and 2% is very reasonable since the last 4 years were 3,3,3, and 3%. Last year the inflation was less than 1%. I don’t know what they expect.

Just like save-on: more, more, more

We’ll see how “useless” they are when people start complaining about the garbage piling up or the condition of the sidewalks/streets.

CUPE Local President Gary Campbell says “we’re prepared to stand up for a fair and reasonable contract.”

The last contract, 3%, 3%, 3%, 3% and 3% cumulative each year over 5 years was far and away above and beyond a “fair and reasonable ” contract! This time around, 0%, 0% and 2% is more than reasonable!

Essential service levels will be set. Let them strike!!

Now, if we could only do something about the excessive wages and benefits also given to the exempt staff and management!!

What a great Christmas present that would be!!

Exactly Rounder!

chev must live in an apartment, doesn’t drive and be a 24/7 couch potato. Useless is pretty harsh. Could be more efficient,
maybe some contracting out but strike threat is the price we pay for a balance of management and labour. The public never is on the side of government labour.

Way to go union. Mayor green is a bully. The management staff has received way more money and do less work. The Union is asking for less than the provincial average. Get rid of the high priced lawyer before it goes to arbitration and they get the provincial average

I see Green and James as hypocrites, Mayor and Council and Management positions randomly approving sizeable salary increases, and then coming down hard on the workers.

That poll was sleazy, and forcing the workers to strike is sleazy! Yup, show everyone how “tuff” they are just to score some political points.

Now all the Green haters can turn into Green lovers because she stood up to the big bad union.

“Could be more efficient” is the understatement of the year. If you’ve ever watched a city employee at work you’ll have seen the epitome of inefficiency.

Time to slash the city payroll! There are too many people sucking on the taxpayer teat and it has to end. This goes for the over bloated management as well as the over bloated front line workers.

What are we up to now for salaries? Have we broken the 50 million a year mark yet?

In the end the City did very little to work out an agreement, hire a lawyer at $300 plus an hour, spend like drunks, hire more staff for city hall.They never wanted an agreement Mayor wants to be seen as ruff and tough and deflect people away from the real issues.

All you need now is Bruce Buffer yelling “It’s Time!” – because this could get ugly.

is it just a coincidence they picked this week when the weather is warming up?

Stand up and demand what you want and deserve. Make’em squirm!

What the hell is wrong with some of you people? First off, bashing city workers when the person making these decisions against the city employees is a salaried employee costing tax payers $200,000+ a year and isn’t even from PG and you don’t have an issue with that? CUPE’s negotiations are NOT unreasonable..spending exhorbitant amounts of money on a new RCMP building and a proposed Arts center is more of an issue than a raise to keep our cities workers at par with other municipal employees in other communities. Chevy2000, calling our city workers ‘useless’ is a clear indication you know very little about the issues at hand. How do you think clean drinking water enters your home, how do you think garbage is removed from your curb, sewer flows freely etc etc….get the facts. Instead you sound like a bitter whiner.

As a homeowner and taxpayer I am 100% behind the city workers.
Always money for projects, trips to China, hiring more salaried staff, Nisan leaf’s that don’t run in the winter.

Mayor Green and puppets has called wolf one to many times.

Proud of city workers who do a great job.

Tell me why they deserve a raise? Is it because everyone else got one (at City Hall)?

How many people on this forum have received a consistent pay raise over the last few years?

Probably not too many, unless you have a union bargaining for you.

The City shouldn’t be spending money on extra positions or spending money on projects that aren’t critical (ie PAC, parking lots, license plate readers, reports on swimming pools, trips to China, Winter Games) during times when they have to increase taxes. The City should be run like a business, spend within your means.

Don’t come asking for 2.5% increase to budget – work with what you have.

People that run businesses have to deal with revenue shortfalls – they don’t go out and hire 3 more people or take a trip to China – they work harder with what they have. These owners take care of their workers and customers first.

I can’t take a side in this issue, as both sides should be pointing the finger at themselves. Maybe the Union shouldn’t have been so greedy the first time around, especially during the economic slow-down. Previous City councils and administrations also shouldn’t have been taking raises during these times when they knew about unbalanced budgets, etc.

“Instead you sound like a bitter whiner”

Lots of them around LeighL!

Considering that this is the only time in history that this has happened, this further proves the disfunction going in at city hall.

Go workers..

Was the last city workers contract greedy or just plain good luck on the unions part to sign a 5 year deal.

After signing of the 5 year contract the world economy tanked. Sawmills in the PG area went on reduced work schedules, reduced rate of pay, or shutdown. USA housing starts dropped to 1/4 of the peak, unemployment was near 10% in the US. Greece just about declared bankruptcy.

The downturn in the world economy is what makes the last union contract look so good today. If the world economic downturn had not occurred there would be little thought today about a 3% yearly increase for PG union workers.

I’m behind the workers as a homeowner and taxpayer in this community. I hope we get some massive dumps of snow this week that will put management’s hand to the burner a bit. Too bad that the City of PG seems to have 1 manager per every 2 CUPE workers and can probably keep things running smoothly if there was a strike…

LeighL, you ask (repeatedly, haha) what the hell is wrong with some of us people!

Please let me tell you, absolutely nothing, except for the following:

1. We are sick and tired of tax increase after tax increase after tax increase!

2. We are sick and tired of constant Union demands for more, more, more, without any consideration for the taxpayer that has to pay the bill!

3. We are sick and tired of ridiculous wage and benefit increases for Management and Exempt staff!

4. We are sick and tired of our local City Union reps crying about how badly our local municipal workers are paid, in spite of the fact that recent surveys have shown that even if the workers accepted the latest offer, they would still be some of the highest paid municipal workers in the province

5. We are sick and tired of being told how important these jobs are when no one job is more important than the next, regardless of whether those jobs are private or public sector!

6. We are sick and tired of City Management spending like there is not tomorrow! The piggy bank is EMPTY!! Stop spending!!

7. We are sick and tired of municipal hiring in an attempt to create yet another level of bureaucracy with increased staffing levels to support it (think communications department)!!

These are just a few examples of what the hell is wrong with some of us people!!

I see your point Resident, but flip it the other way. Had the world economy boomed, with wage increases of 5% per year on average given out, CUPE would be pointing at the ground they lost and be asking for even more, so it’s not inappropriate to point at the prior contract and say – you got a better deal last time around, so this time around we even it up.

Now, if they took 0,0,2, and in the next three years the economy took off, next round they’d be asking for even more.

Unfortunately no one at city hall seems to understand optics is important, and hard to ask the people on the front line to take nothing when you’re regularly eating at the finest diners and drinking the best scotch.

As I mentioned before, this will be a 4 to 6 week strike, the city will settle at 1,1,2, paid for with the wages saved during the strike, and then CUPE can pound their chest and say, we put the boots to them, and the city can say, we raised wages and it cost us nothing. Only losers in this are the taxpayers and workers – no surprise there.

Hart Guy, apparently you didn’t read my comment about the repeated posts…but then again, I wouldn’t expect much from someone who seems to know so little about our city spending.
I am sick of reading rubbish about city employees who are just exercising their rights.
I am sick of people who don’t know where the tax money is going…try doing some research on where the largest sums of money are spent, ie: Roadhouse purchase, RCMP building, trips to China, a Core review, the wood initiatives downtown heating plan, the mayors trip to Kamloops, management salaries, etc etc etc. That’s where our money is going and the mayor and her cronies have done what they set out to do, deflect all their overspending to CUPE employees wages. I am not gullible enough to fall for their bogus rants. City council should be held accountable for being the vacuums sucking the money out of our pockets, not the cities union employees.

I would sure like Opinion250 to report on the other items that are being discussed in the city workers’ contract. It isn’t just wages that are being negotiated. I’d like the whole picture please.

Even if the economy is doing well, City workers need to understand that they are very well reimbursed for their work e.g. wages, benefits, training. Do they always have to ask for more?

northman says “Considering that this is the only time in history that this has happened, this further proves the disfunction going in at city hall.”

———————————————
Excellent observation northman… the city and union has managed to sort contracts for decades through ups and downs and all sorts of issues … what has changed this time? – the Mayor and her management’s team approach to negotiations maybe … I suspect that there is a good case for bad faith negotiation practices with the LRB is the City has refused to adjust (negotiate) their opening position.

“Do they always have to ask for more?”

You mean like they do at the gas pumps, insurance offices, grocery stores, for tuition fees, user fees, hydro fees and every other thing on that people spend their earned income on to live on this planet?

If its good for all them, its good for every in my books. Everytime someone gets a raise someone else raises their prices and takes it away.

They are in a union, so, yes they must always ask for more, more, more.

LeighL, I apologize if you think my comment about your repeated posts was intended to be critical of you in any way! My comment was only in fun, as I too have repeatedly posted the same thing over and over! That’s why I added “haha” to my comment!

While I apologize for your misinterpretation of the intent of my comment to you, I believe that your comment about “someone who seems to know so little about our city spending” is at least as insulting to me as you suggest mine was to you! I’ve apologized! Perhaps you might consider an apology to me and to all of the other taxpayers who actually do know far more about our city spending than you suggest that we do!!

If you would take the time to reread my post and my previous posts regarding City wages and benefits, you will find that I am consistent with my condemnation of excessive wages and benefits for ALL City employees! This includes the front line unionized workforce AND all Exempt and Management staff as well!

I am also sick and tired of the ongoing wasteful and unnecessary spending that occurs in the public sector! I have repeatedly stated that I believe that it is long past time for a complete shake up and review of all Federal, Provincial and Municipal staffing and compensation levels!

I will take the liberty of speaking for the people, by stating that “we, the people” are far smarter and far more well informed than you might think that we are!

We, the people are long past “fed up”!!

Well said LeighL.

Come on people. This outcome was obvious the second the City took the unprecedented step of hiring a lawyer to negotiate. Where’s that lawyer’s wage coming from? I have to seriously wonder if that move alone hasn’t been more expensive than the proposed wage increase.

Whether you agree with the Union’s position or not, the City’s behaviour has simply been downright sleazy from the very beginning.

LeighL; if you are going to engage Hart Guy in a debate you might want to have some of this:

http://pasadenanow.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/picture-2.png

On the matter of principle I’m supporting the CUPE strive of trying to improve their manner of living. Mayor and company are saying there is no money for CUPE, yet are not embarrassed to announce an additional three jobs to be set up for communications. Cost will easily reach an extra half a million per year. We currently have at least two employees at City Hall which are quickly approaching a quarter million a per year. As mentioned by LeighL..the list goes on of overspending by City administration. This contract could have been easily settled, but why would the City’s hired Labour Lawyer do so. He/she probably get’s at least 900 dollars a day wages and expenses…The first two years of 0% could easily have be compensated with a cash buyout for each year, the city workers with a little respect from Mayor and company would probably have went for it…dumb..dumb… :(

I haven’t read all the previous comments and I certainly don’t have an axe to grind with the city workers. 3% annual raises are a bit out of line and it’s time for the workers to feel some of the pain of the taxpayers and homeowners what with increases in fees and new business licenses. That being said the cost control shouldn’t end with the workers. It’s time the city administration took some heat as well. Their wages and expenses are totally out of hand. Then there’s this uncontrolled hiring of high priced help. Maybe that’s where the useless label should be pinned. I know we have an elected council that’s supposed to represent us the taxpayers, home owners and business people but they’re not doing their job. We need a “shadow council” made up of common people that will use “common sense”. This spending is out of control.

People#1, if you are going to offer suggestions to others, you might wish to keep in mind that when faced with logical, well-thought comments, and evidence that is contradictory to your hallowed opinion, your often run away, go silent and hide!!

You are so willing to promote “facts and truths”, but you seem willing to only consider your “facts and truths” and not those of anyone else!

Please explain why only your “fact and truths” are relevant and more importantly, please explain why you run away and hide whenever rational reasonable debate is cast your way??

I await in eager anticipation your explanation as asked for in my question!!

I agree with Hart Guy on this issue.

We taxpayers are put in the position of making a difference between Union Workers and Management and exempt staff. The fact of the matter is taxpayers have to pay for both.

The Unions can negotiate a contract that works for them, but taxpayers have to pay for it. Management will get any increase that the Unions get, so they are in fact in a conflict of interest when it comes to bargaining.

The Unions can make out that Management is the bad guy, however the fact of the matter is they are both out of line when it comes to anymore increases in salaries and benefits.

There are too many people in this town than can no longer pay these high wages for Management, Staff, Police, Firemen, or Union workers. We have come to the end of the line,.

If the Union and Management cannot come to an agreement that is acceptable to the taxpayers, then go on strike. If you cannot see the effect that these constant increases have on the average wage earner in this town, then you deserve to be on strike until you come to your senses.

On the Management side, they need to be looking at downsizing the number of Managers, and exempt staff, and doing some realistic reduction in spending taxpayers dollars.

The taxpayers of Prince George want at the very least to hold the line on wages and benefits for both Management and Unions, and a decrease in spending, followed by a decrease in taxes, and service costs.

We cant get want we want, if the Management and Unions keep giving themselves increases.

So I say strike away. The longer you stay out the more money we will save.

Right on bornandbred. The outside workers have some very different issues than the inside workers. It puts everyone in a very difficult situation. Let’s hope that a small group of people don’t hold the City ransom.

Some of the information we seem to be lacking on here …

1. People speak about getting wage parity with other cities. Since other cities likely did not get as much as the triple 5% deal, I would really love to know what some sample wages are for City CUPE workers versus other similar sized cities – Nanaimo, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Kamloops, Kelowna, as an example.

2. I hope that everyone understands that typically the percentage raise that included staff get will also be given to excluded staff.

3. I hope that everyone understands that with the raise given to City Council members, including the Mayor, that they have been getting annual raises based on a formula which is based on the lesser of provincial average raises or local senior admin raises. So, whatever CUPE gets will be reflected in salary increases to excluded staff and Council.

4. Lawyer cost? $900 dollars a day wages and expenses???? Try a minimum of $300/hr + travel, accommodation, food, photocopying, phone and other expenses. If it is a good labour lawyer, it is money well spent.

5. After the strike, it is not uncommon for excluded staff to be given a bonus that reflects the number of extra hours they put in for doing any of the included staff’s work.

Seems the new City Manager can’t manage anything at all. Half a year with her and what do we have to show for it? The development of her own fiefdom and now a striking labour force?

Not impressed.

sorry, that should be triple 3% deal … just seems like a triple 5% deal …. ;-)

I am impressed by the new City Manager. Finally someone who is making some changes both in management and standing up to a workforce that is out of line with their ask.

We really do not know what is happening with excluded staff other than many, if not all, are in a situation where they do not know what is happening.

This is how a house cleaning typically works. The thing is, it is a bit more visible with City staff. Does anyone think that excluded staff will be exempt from this? They will not be.

The only people who could care less are the RCMP who are protected under contract. The City is not their employer.

The firemen is a bit different, they are City employees. But, they are like the monkeys on Gibraltar and the cows of India. They are very well protected.

I find it curious that the union side has yet to come up with a valid arguement on the need for more than what is currently being offered.

Usually the first word is what the city is spending on other projects…so…this has absolutely no bearing on contract negotiations other than the concern the workers have when they cut a cheque in July with ever other taxpayer. The council has priorities other than raising enough money to ensure the raises are never ending. A good part of their mandate is to maintain and even increase what the city offers to the residents. If they are not doing what the electorate want they will answer for their actions at the ballot box not at the bargaining table.

The second thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that they do not want to talk about the current wage and benefit package but only that they are being offered a smaller percentage increase. Could this be because if a direct comparison is made with other communities it would show that cupe has it pretty good?

Those darn Unions. Who do they really think they are earning over 20 dollars per hour and supporting our local economy. Lets roll the wages back and have everyone make 15 bucks an hour. We are talking about those who work at the City, pulp mills,education, health care, universities,colleges,schools,mechanic shops,and the list goes on and on.
Who will be supporting the economy and raising their families here. No one. House sales will stop, businesses will close, and the city may as well roll up the streets and call it quits.
Who’s wages support your 15 dollar per hour job. You guessed it. Those who are union members and work hard to negotiate settlements within their contracts that enable the nay sayers in these comments to actually have a job. Its time to be thankful for the work done by unions, and recognize how many non union jobs are supported through their wages.For those who may not be represented by a unionized bargaining unit, and may earn a decent wage, you may want to think of how your wages got to where they are. Good for CUPE and best of luck with the mob on the 5th floor at City Hall. Just sayin.

I wish people would stop comparing things like the PAC to city wages. I hear things like “if we can afford a PAC we can afford a wage increase” – sorry, its not either/or, we can afford NEITHER right now. Comparing the police station is ridiculous too. We could build a new station like that one every year for what we pay in wages so how is that relavent? Have you ever worked out what the $30,000 trip to China is compared to annual city wages? F-all. That does not mean I agree with any of those expenditures I just think they are very weak arguments for justifying a raise.

I wonder if Frank Everett is involved behind closed doors? It would be a conflict of interest if he is?

Looks like the city has moved the December 16th council meeting to December 11th after the budget meeting. This is the last scheduled meeting until the new year.

As a person who was very closely associated to the bargaining of the last union contract with the city, I would like to clarify a point. The five year contract was what the city wanted, not the union. The city wanted five years instead of three, so they bought the last two years of the contract. Clearly, at the time there was a good reason for the city to want an extended contract. Not sure how that worked out for them. The contract was fair and kept city workers up with inflationary growth. Janet Bigelow has done a good job. I will admit that several years ago I didn’t think she was ready for the challenge of taking on such a troubled relationship between workers and management. But she is doing a really good job for the workers she represents, as is the outside workers representative. I’ve worked in three levels of government, and can say that municipal workers are fairly paid. In other levels of gov’t the pay is much less. But that means other levels of gov’t are far behind, and will keep getting farther behind. It doesn’t mean municipal workers are overpaid. Since these locals were certified, there has never been a strike. Strike votes, yet. But then resolve was found before job action took place. This administration has been aggressive, unfair, and plain mean-spirited. Let’s see how this plays out.

gus: “I am impressed by the new City Manager. Finally someone who is making some changes both in management and standing up to a workforce that is out of line with their ask.”

Totally in agreement gus. We must have had a wet noodle on the City side the last time raises were handed out.

$42 Million in salary + benefits per year cost to the taxpayers.

If the union wants an increase, they should have to fund it through staff reductions. Not a chance of that happening, I know.

The last deal the union got was way out of line. 0,0, and 2 is more than fair. Time for the taxpayers to say ‘enough is enough’. Good on the City for standing up for the taxpayer.

” I’ve worked in three levels of government, and can say that municipal workers are fairly paid.”

Well there we have it in black and white from someone who claims insider knowledge! 0-0-2 more than adequate to see that this continues in the future

At least the city got one part right.

“Never buy from a rich salesman but always hire a rich lawyer”.

Guess if the services normally provided are not available the taxpayer will see a rebate next year’s tax bill.

The city is dealing in bad faith. Go to their page an the only media release in all capital letters is the one that notes our workers are some of the highest paid in the province. Hello…that is one of the reasons we all live here. Any labour market survey will tell you that we on average get paid more. A lot of the waste at city hall are those making over 75k. I’m not saying others are not paid well. But cut the turning the public on the union B’S.

The city is dealing in bad faith. Go to their page an the only media release in all capital letters is the one that notes our workers are some of the highest paid in the province. Hello…that is one of the reasons we all live here. Any labour market survey will tell you that we on average get paid more. A lot of the waste at city hall are those making over 75k. I’m not saying others are not paid well. But cut the turning the public on the union B’S.

“For the first time in it’s history with the City of Prince George, CUPE has served strike notice on the City.”

Wow, we have a Mayor and Council so desperate to rescue their tattered political reputations from public opinion’s toilet, they are willing to push their workers into walking off the job.

This strike is not about money, it’s about politics. Maybe getting tough on organized labour will earn them some votes from the “right” in next year’s election. I wouldn’t put it past this group to boost their political popularity off the backs of city workers.

@Hart Guy; chill out and have some wine! As for me “often running away, going silent and hiding”… hardly. Although I have been known to walk away from a debate when the other person has a low intelligence quotient. Where would be the challenge?

proudgammi, you say city workers are paid fairly. Compared to whom? City workers are highly paid ($25+ per hour to start for clerical and janitors) compared to the private sector. Who pays the private sector wages? Who pays the city workers’ wages?

proudgammi, with respect to the last contract with our city workers, you state “The contract was fair and kept city workers up with inflationary growth.”

Actually, at 3% per year each and every year for 5 years, the city workers had salary increases that totaled a cumulative 16%! This at a time when the Canadian Inflation Rate (using the monthly consumer price index) increased by only 7.42%

Over the term of the last contract, our City Workers didn’t just keep up with inflationary growth, they far exceeded it! Real wages and purchasing power of our City workers exceeded inflation by 8.58 percent!!

0%, 0% and 2% this time around is more than reasonable!!

geez, I wonder if monkeyboots is a city worker…. I don’t think the public needs any help in turning on city workers, monkey.

FYI, your comment about being among the highest paid in the province isn’t helping your position right? lol. Highly paid and not very bright. Great combination.

Lets turn up the heat on this argument.

Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow…..
There is probably enough managers at the city to cover most positions in case of a strike. I wonder if Bill Gaal and Kathleen Soltis will be running the snow removal equipment LOL. Shari Green driving a garbage truck.

Sorry, just trying to find some entertainment in all this.

People#1, walk away from a debate when the other person has a low intelligence quotient?? That’s how you want to answer my question? Really?

Obviously you don’t want to answer my previous question, so perhaps you might answer these:

What makes you think that the other person has a low intelligence quotient??

What makes you think that you don’t fit into that category??

The city is spending too much money on too many projects simultaneously (some of them not required: fancy library entrance reno, fancy civic centre plaza reno, fancy license plate recognition equipment…costly promotion of PCA, winter games……and so forth) in order to be pleading inability to pay new wages, especially when salaries have apparently already been looked after and new positions are being created all the time with generous salaries, in my humble opinion.

PG, it is also possible that Mayor and Council could be looking at funding some of these many expensive initiatives through wages saved during the strike.

Hmm… I wonder how much money in wages they will be saving every day of the strike, and where will that accumulated / saved money be spent? My guess is towards a PAC.

@Hart Guy; last time I checked the topic was about CUPE Serves Strike Notice, however, I am flattered that you wish to engage me in a debate about myself.

City workers would have a lot more money if they only had 1 guy working and 3 leaning on the shovel instead of 5 leaning on the shovel and 2 guys sitting in their truck staring at the problem!

There are no big secrets when the Unions and Management private or public sit down to negotiate a contract. There are only three possible outcomes.

1. Increases in wages and benefits.

2. Zero increase to wages and benefits over the life of the contract, and

3. Rollbacks, and lay offs.

In order for the Union to avoid negotiating on 2, or 3, they have to try and make a strong case for 1.

At this point at the City, both the Union and Management should be looking 2, and getting prepared in the not to distant future to negotiate on 3.

That’s what is coming in the future, and the sooner we get it out of the way the better. Management should lead by example by having a number of high paid Managers fall on their swords.

People#1, as it seems like you aren’t very comfortable answering the tough questions, I’ll make my next question a bit easier for you to debate.

Earlier on this post, at 3:25 PM, I made 7 points/comments with respect to the topic “CUPE Serves Strike Notice”! Of those seven points/comments, which don’t you agree with??

I have spoken to hundreds of people both directly and off handed as this subject is the talk of the town and the support is behind the workers…City hall has cut their own throat by pissing off literally every group or sector.

The employer side of the table is so heavy in salaries, benefits and decisions resulting in wasted millions and questionable ethics including that BS phone scam.

The union side salaries at the table is but a pittance in comparison and that includes the ‘big Union Reps’. This theme continues in the everyday world.

Mayor Green you are a massive Joke. Admin needs to be razored….a lifetime of running their little empire and sucking the public tit dry….Soltis et ‘al, IMHO.

Where is the rest of council on this? Your mouth was voted in, along with the rest of you. Time to rein in your so called Leader and use whatever influence or gumption you have left.

If the city was truly broke…which it isn’t, they have used the old nugget of creating a crisis where there isn’t one to instil fear and maintain control with an easy ‘out’ for everything other than for their own little playground, then I might buy a bit of what they are selling. However, this round of bargaining is all about killing the workers’ spirit, squashing the pesky union and about egos. It is unethical and mean spirited and a total waste of time and money.

Just like everything else this mayor and council has touched.

NEVER APOLOGIZE for making 30-70 thousand a year! Thank God for labour supporting the middle class which is already on life support…they are the true supporters of small business and communities on a quiet,collective and every day basis.

Time to put out the “Union Wage Dollars Not Accepted Here” signs mo fo’s!!!

bcnorth: “Time to put out the “Union Wage Dollars Not Accepted Here” signs mo fo’s!!! “

How many union members are shopping at the big box stores to save a few bucks, even though they employ non-union labour? That statement cuts both ways, bcnorth.

bcnorth: “The union side salaries at the table is but a pittance in comparison “

$42 Million / year + benefits is a pittance? That is news to me.

JB: “How many union members are shopping at the big box stores to save a few bucks, even though they employ non-union labour? That statement cuts both ways, bcnorth”

I’ll make this easy for you this time around, JB…You are totally correct and I agree 100%.

JB: “”The union side salaries at the table is but a pittance in comparison “

$42 Million / year + benefits is a pittance? That is news to me.”

Didn’t take you long to disappoint me. Compare apples to apples eh? I meant the pure imbalance of power and resources at the bargaining table…399 and 1048 reps at the table put their necks on the line and have ‘day jobs’ that in no way match the salaries, time-in and expertise on the other side of the table. Not to mention, said union reps are fighting the dark abyss across the table with their own giant and bottomless vat of tax dollars – essentially, their own money.

Makes me physically ill.

Disagree if you will JB, which you will, however you can have left and right and somewhere nearer the middle either way….I argue that the right in this day and age is OFF THE G.D. CHARTS to the point of ruins for the world I want to live in. But that’s another book.

Break is over, back to work.

Hart Guy; I have posted plenty of comments about the strike on this discussion thread, why don’t you pick one of my comments to debate? Unless you agree with all of them?

And just Johnny deploys the big box store argument again. Hey, lets be more creative, I am sure some of these union members travel to Mexico for holidays, can’t we complain about all their union dollars not even being spent in PG?

We know a majority of Temporary Foreign Workers send most of their money home, but that’s what we need here right JB? … some cheap temporary foreign workers to replace all those over paid city workers.

Yeah, I get it; lets lower everyone’s standard of living down to slave labour rates, then we can all be happy! After all… misery loves company!

Go on strike you CUPE turds. After its done, with loss of pay it will be -5, -5 -10. Greedy unions are as offensive as greedy corporations. Lets go to war. Can’t wait to cross the first picket lines of union drones.

Once again the pro management and pro union people miss the point.

BOTH MANAGEMENT AND UNION ARE WORKING FOR THE SAME EMPLOYER. THE TAXPAYERS.

Lets quit pretending that somehow the manager in a negotiating team is paid from a different pot than the union negotiator. We the taxpayers are paying for both sides, and I might add, we are getting screwed by both sides.

Neither Managers, or Union employee’s can pay one penny in taxes, until they get the money from the taxpayers.

What people want is some honesty and integrity from both Management and Unions, so that we can stop the bleeding, and get back to basics.

Today I witnessed 3 city employees (CUPE)at a store- only on their lunch break – 2+ hours later were walking out with Xmas shopping – not back after been told that they only 15 minutes to spare and could not chat!

When there are no unions, to protect worker’s rights, this is what ends up happening, it’s all about greed and money folks, people don’t matter!

http://www.theprovince.com/life/Hortons+boss+demanded+from+Fernie+foreign+workers+overtime+shifts+employees+claim/9257041/story.html

http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/home/whos_looking_out_for_tim_hortons_temporary_foreign_workers/fc50421c

I’m amazed by all the union bashing. Isn’t this a union town/city? All the major employers in this city have unions, am I correct? Can the average person working in a store, restaurant, take-out food, etc – afford to buy a home in Pr George? Are not union paid jobs the economic driving force in our City?

Well said Palopu. Everyone needs to grow up and use their big boy words.😊

Woodwoman – “where were their managers?”

Bang on Palopu. This is not about union bashing or seeing unions disappear.

Everyone seems to forget that the TAXPAYERS have to foot the bill for any wage and benefit increases. I don’t see this as bashing.

People: “And just Johnny deploys the big box store argument again. Hey, lets be more creative, I am sure some of these union members travel to Mexico for holidays, can’t we complain about all their union dollars not even being spent in PG?”

I only bring this up because I know you have no good response to it, People#1. Somehow it’s ok for union members to try and save money to try and get the best price, so why can’t the City do the same? Look at the big picture and try to see the forest for the trees.

I agree with bcnorth250, with the “Right” running the country, it’s hard to even recognize Canada anymore. We are becoming a country of human rights violators and abusers, blinded by money and greed.

I can’t believe someone posting on here actually wants option #3: to take money away from people. No different than the Tim Horton’s owner in Fernie, BC.

People #1.

When middle to low income people have to get their taxes raised to pay increases for City Management and Unions, you are in fact taking money from people.

Why would you think it is **ok** to take money from taxpayers to pay these people, but that taxpayers cannot insist that the taking stop.

There has to be some balance. We are fast approaching the time where middle to low income people will be eating cat food, while management and union people will be dining on steak and lobster.

PG city workers ranked #3 out of 27 cities for wages. After this I am sure they will be at #1.

Canada is just fine, people#1. We came through the financial melt down on the top of the G8. We are in a far more solid financial position then leftard Europe. Only idiots don’t like this brand of Canada and you are the poster child of them.

Wow all extremes left,right and ignorant.

An interesting comment Palopu, there was a time when union wages defined “middle income” people, I think it still does. What has changed is that unions are disappearing, and with them, so are the middle class.

There is no doubt about it, anyone doing a google search on “middle class disappearing” will get plenty of results sourced from both the USA and here in Canada.

Like the rest of the world, this country is being run by Big Business and Corporations, businesses now export their jobs to third world countries where labour is dirt cheap.

blog/view/29694/1/glacier+media+moves+jobs+to+manila+and+india

Disappearing jobs, very few unions, are indicators that you are right Palopu the middle and lower class will probably be eating cat food some time in the near future. Our standard of living is diminishing, while the few unions left have been protecting their member’s standard of living!

Is it the union’s fault they have been protecting their worker’s standard of living, or is it our fault that we have allowed Big Business and Corporations to take over, outsource our jobs or replace us with cheap Temporary Foreign Workers?

dow7500, couldn’t agree more, especially the part about the poster child!

Palopu, well said!! I can hold my own and can always manage to pay my taxes, but I know an awful lot of lower income people in this city who struggle to pay their tax and utility bills from the city. This includes working people and those on fixed incomes including our senior citizens!

I don’t see any of the unionized people in this city struggling. Our mill workers, teachers, healthcare workers, ICBC, BC Hydro and yes even our City workers all seem to be doing fairly well off!

What about the rest of us? It’s easy to say “Give the City workers what they want!”, but there are a lot of people who have reached the end of their financial ability to “give’ any more!!

Do the Labour Unions care about these people? Nope,not at all! Their only concern is collecting Union Dues from their members!! That’s the cold hard reality!

Maybe a prolonged strike will force some of our City workers to go to the local food bank. Perhaps they might be surprised to see that many of their non-union neighbours are already there!!

Its a good thing the Salvation Army has put in new rules so not just anyone can wander in and grab a food hamper this Christmas.

I am 100% sure this could be settled without job action—–Give the CUPE members what ever the city managers get for a raise and they would be more then happy. That way the Managers can set the example.

Smiddy are you getting that fact from the City media release? Did you notice that they are only talking about Labour positions (doesn’t come close to covering all city positions) and why haven’t they included all the northern cities on that list? Oh right…probably because the more north you go, the higher the wages are, which is probably why Prince George labour wages are higher than most of the cities on that list which are mainly Okanagon, Lower Mainlain, and the island!

It won’t be cat food it will be soylent green. Hey Harper said when he was done you wouldn’t recognise Canada but he forgot to say you wouldn’t like it. Unless you are corporate of course.

Good god monkeyboots, the city put out a press release with the CAPS LOCK on. Oh the huge manatee:) Someone better call the United Nations and the court in the Hague!

How about bringing something forward to refute the contents of the press release. Have yet to see anything that says anything over what the city has offered is justified. Last I looked gayle Chetwynd, Terrace, Fort St John and Williams Lake were all north of the lower mainland and they are all on the list but why let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I cannot see how the union figures that will come out ahead by going on strike,it would be different if the city was demanding rollbacks. Right from the get go the city has said no money in the first 2 years and have not budged so if they go out for a month or six weeks the best they can expect is maybe 1% something that would take years to gain back. If both sides dig their heels in and the strike lasts for months they will never get it back.

I’m not corporate and I like most of it hartly. Not all, but it beats anything from the Liberal regime or anything chia face could do.

gayle, you suggest that union wages should be higher here when compared to the Okanagan, Lower Mainland and the Island because of the higher cost of living??

Have you compared housing costs here with those in the the other areas that you mentioned? Our very reasonable housing costs are one of the reasons that so many people in our city own holiday trailers, motorhomes, boats, quads, snowmobiles and other assorted lifestyle toys and enjoy tropical vacations. Many in the Okanagan, Lower Mainland and the Island face much higher housing costs and as such have very little left over for the toys or vacations!!

The unionized labour in this city does very well. High wages and low housing costs afford them a very high standard of living and a very good quality of life! This is beyond dispute!

The problem for some on this site is that they fail to recognize and acknowledge that many of under-represented and lower income members of this community are very near to or have already reached the breaking point and they are saying, nay dare I say, they are screaming “enough is enough”!!

I didn’t suggest anything…you suggested that Hart Guy. I simply made a comment referring to what is basically general knowledge that wages increase further north. Ever noticed what the price of a truck is here compared to Vancouver?

So do you then think that because our housing costs are low, the city workers should be paid less than other communities for doing the same kind of work? That seems fair, when have city workers on the island ever had to work outside in -20 degree weather?

I’m confused…are we all buying toys and going on fancy holidays or going to the food bank for canned beans, which is it??

What can I say Hart Guy? In one part of your comment you state;

“Our very reasonable housing costs are one of the reasons that so many people in our city own holiday trailers, motorhomes, boats, quads, snowmobiles and other assorted lifestyle toys and enjoy tropical vacations.”

Then in the last part you state;

“The problem for some on this site is that they fail to recognize and acknowledge that many of under-represented and lower income members of this community are very near to or have already reached the breaking point and they are saying, nay dare I say, they are screaming “enough is enough”!!

What ever point you are trying to make gets kind of muddled when you contradict yourself.

As for sticking up for the poor and marginalized, maybe you forgot about my comment under the BC Hydro raising it’s rates by 25% over the next few years, I stated that this will put more people out on the street!

Where was your concern under the story about the City raising taxes on residential suites in this city, where there was general consensus that the home owners will probably pass those expenses on the renters in the form of high rent. This will of course directly impact on whether the poor can afford to keep a roof over their heads.

It’s in my moniker, and many on this discussion board read my many comments, and my genuine concern about child poverty and the poor. And now here you are, for the first time ever, champion the poor, and to what end? To bash the union!!!

You are some piece of work Hart Guy!!!

are city CUPE workers exempt from paying taxes in this city?

Anyone know if any of the managers or mayor and council have class 3 with air in order to drive any of the city equipment?

The most recent data I could find, but the contracts run primarily from 2013 through 2016. It is a nice mix of public and private sector for all those that keep saying only public is giving money away while private isn’t.

Notice how few 0’s there are

http://bcbargaining.ca/Reports/2013/Settlements/SEV45N04August_Sept.pdf

I encourage others to also support your statements of generalizations, hyperbole, etc. with some real numbers.

restjet: “I am 100% sure this could be settled without job action—–Give the CUPE members what ever the city managers get for a raise and they would be more then happy.”

Agreed! Give the dollar amount (not the %) the few managers got and distribute it evenly to the army of CUPE workers. It would work out to .001%.

Hello: “are city CUPE workers exempt from paying taxes in this city?”

They are paid by taxes. That is all that matters.

I always thought that was what life was about, to get a good paying job, pay your bills, taxes, mortgage,car payment, house insurance,house taxes, land taxes,pharmaceuticals,bank loans mayor greens salary gas for the car bc gas hydro rate ridiculous rate increase, icbc, and ah yes food. SO what if I go to a big box store and buy my food because ill probably be standing in a line up next to you. IF YOU DONT LIKE WHAT SOMEONE EARNS QUIT YOUR JOB AND GET A BETTER PAYING ONE!!! I APOLOGIZE IF I MISSED ANY PAYMENTS LISTED, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ADD ON

Sorry Gayle, I was in hte middle of a very detailed rebuttal for you when my computer somehow “blinked” and I lost all that I had typed. Must head to bed as off to work early in the morning, so hopefully this thread will remain available for comments tomorrow evening.

I will however briefly comment that I don’t know of any municipal worker or other unionized employee at any of the other workplaces that I mentioned having much in the way of problems keeping their heads above water. I don’t know anyone from these groups who frequents the food bank. However, I do know many “average” joes” who struggle yet manage to survive with much less than what the unionized workforce has in the way of salary and benefits!

All these “average” joes want is for those with “more” to stop asking for even “more”!!

…and for you People#1, you still haven’t answered my earlier question

“Earlier on this post, at 3:25 PM, I made 7 points/comments with respect to the topic “CUPE Serves Strike Notice”! Of those seven points/comments, which don’t you agree with??”

Perhaps you’ll answer them for me tonight so that I have them to look forward tomorrow!

Before I hit the hay, I would like to ask one more thing of you! Your earlier comment “Although I have been known to walk away from a debate when the other person has a low intelligence quotient. Where would be the challenge?” does not speak very highly of you as a Man of the People!

Why it is that while you suggest in your moniker that you are the man of the “People”, you are usually the number one person on this site who is guilty of criticizing, denigrating and belittling others whose opinions you don’t agree with???

A good friend of mine often uses a phrase, the origin of which I’m not sure..

When you have the facts, argue the facts!
When you have the law, argue the law!
When you have neither the facts, for the law, attack the man!

You seem to personally attack the man more than anyone else on this site! Maybe you might want to ask yourself why that is!

In closing, ask I said earlier tonight, our city city workers had salary increases that totaled a cumulative 16%, at a time when the Canadian Inflation Rate (using the monthly consumer price index) increased by only 7.42%. Over the term of the last contract, our City Workers didn’t just keep up with inflationary growth, they far exceeded it! Real wages and purchasing power of our City workers exceeded inflation by 8.58 percent!!

0%, 0% and 2% this time around is more than reasonable!!

Good Night!

Oops,

When you have neither the facts, NOR the law, attack the man!

Sheesh, must be tired!

JohnnyBelt; why do YOU get to decide that’s all that matters – that they are paid by taxes?
Once 519 city workers are off the jobs it won’t take long before they can no longer pay to go out to restaurants, buy gas, buy food, make car payments, pay hydro, gas, telephone, etc., can’t go to movies, can’t take their kids to hockey, swimming, gymnastics. Can no longer pay to shop at our mom and pop businesses in this town that need everyone’s support. Some of these workers are single parents trying to get by….. just like OTHER tax paying citizens of this community. Some of them are dads trying to make child payments so they can see their kids every other weekend… like OTHER tax paying citizens.
Like it says in one of the news stories that its not about the wages, its about respect and hours of work; and shifts of work.
I agree with ICE if people don’t like what someone else is earning quit your job and get a better paying one!!
Sounds like some people are upset because someone else ‘got more licorice than them’. Get over it !!

I blame those who negotiated the last contract with the union and were stupid enough to think that 3% x 5 years was better than 3%+3%+4% that the union was asking for. They were betting that the economy would keep on pumping at a time when the PG economy was not pumping for decades.

Stupid!!!!

So now the union wants to keep on going on the precedent which was set. Don’t blame them.

BUT, there is no equity.

I think the license plate recognition system is a good example of how things work in other industries such as the one which has been the mainstay of the past.

The mills are unionized. The unions get raises as does management. BUT, the overall picture is that tech change has increased production at mills with more mechanization and fewer workers.

When one compares the total union jobs and their total income now to that of 40 to 50 years ago when the mills were brand new there would be a similar or even lower payroll expense.

The sons and daughters of those first workers have more and more had to find jobs somewhere else. Some are not making as much as their parents, others have gotten better paying white collar jobs.

The converse has happened at City Halls across the nation. Today there are more jobs at the City Halls including our own. The two storey City Hall of 1974 gave rise to the 5 storey building of 1977 or so. The 2 storey RCMP building of 1975 gave rise to the current building that is 3 times the size.

The mills have adjusted quite nicely. City Hall has not increased efficiency nor effectiveness.

Until we learn how to work SMART at City Hall the way the mills and other places of production have done, we will continue to have this kind of butting of heads.

Both sides have to come to that realization. I do not see that happening for some time. I blame both sides.

While the Mayor wanted us to have a conversation, we have people at City Hall on both sides that absolutely refuse to have that conversation. That conversation has to include the people who pay the bills.

US!!!!

So hart guy you say union people do not patronize food banks. Now think about what you just posted.

Now why do you think unions where formed in the first place?

BTW, for those who like numbers.

If the $40 million is a realistic number of annual union payroll at City Hall, let us take that number and increase it by 3% per year for five years, and then compare that to 2% over 5 years which I believe is about the average received by other civic workers in BC over that term.

There is a total difference of $2.2 million over 5 years that the taxpayers in PG had to pay over that of a similar sized city in BC.

Not only that, but at the end of the 5 years, we will be paying almost $500thousand more EACH year after that.

We could, instead, put that money into favourites such as potholes or buy a bunch of tech change such as improved pothole paving machines which requires fewer workers or license plate readers which will increase efficiency and effectiveness.

Almost half a million a year for a tech change program, now that is a bit smarter; an investment in getting rid of jobs and increasing productivity.

Would CUPE agree to that? Yeah right!!!!

You are right seamut, and you know who does frequent the food banks? Non-union workers who’s employers pay less than a “living wage”.

18.6 % of this province’s children live in poverty, at a time when there is nearly full employment, that says that we have a huge number of working poor people! Maybe we should have a union membership drive for the parents of these kids to get a “living wage” so the kids can eat, wear proper clothes, and sleep in better than squalor conditions.

Yeah I’m MAD!!! This is Canada!!! This shouldn’t be happening here!!!

is there anywhere we can read what the official contract offer was? not just the wage part.

I think we should be talking about a one year bridging contract at this point.

Offer CUPE 1% for one year and let the next council and mayor get a mandate to deal with this issue.

Then maybe we can see some innovative ideas during the next municipal election. With the last contract being a five year contract, and three years between elections, we’ve now gone to the polls twice without a say in how these union contracts should be handled.

I would like to see CUPE workers become stakeholder representatives rather than ‘workers’. Take on some more of the management roles (like eliminating IPG), and flatten out the power structure at city hall. Bring in the public and volunteers to help build the city into a better place to live. I would like to see talk about that as part of contract talks as well as costs to taxpayers.

So the basic management split is 3 cupe workers for every 1 manager with managers making double or more than the cupe members. I personally would rather have more people doing repairs to the city infrastructure at a decent pay than tons of overpaid managers looking over their shoulders watching them work!!!!!! Happens all the time.

Enough already with bashing the operational staff at the City. Go stand in line at the Service BC Access Centre and be prepared for a wait longer than at the Doctors office. Go to the Service Centre main floor at City Hall, and its in and out while your Timmies is still warm in your cup.
Call the city because your sewer is backed up, and the guys show up with a Vactor truck, slide into their coveralls, and climb down into the sewer for you at 3 am in the morning. Or have your water main burst, and here comes an excavator with the Utilities crew to dig up your main, repair it, fill it back in, repave your street, and even repair the sod on your lawn.
Forget to put your garbage out on your scheduled day at the regular time, and you will be waiting another week because the Sanitation Crew is on-time every time.
Thank you to the operational staff at the city for providing the best service possible. Your efforts are truly recognized and respected by this taxpayer.

Agreed raresense, bang on…hear hear! Thank you!

Okay now go bash the greedy steel workers as they rejected their contract offer! ;)

JOhnnyBelt: “Good on the City for standing up for the taxpayer.”

This City is standing up for the taxpayer after having raised every conceivable tax and fee paid by the taxpayers? What a peculiar statement!

How come these sudden (temporary!) pangs of conscience?

People#1 Was wondering when ‘child poverty’ would come up as Harper was already covered by your earlier posts, just waiting for ‘big oil’ – don’t disappoint

Trying to figure out how you come up with a contradiction in Hart Guy mentioning housing costs are reasonable in PG (when compared to other cities of our size) so some people can afford toys – with those homeowners on fixed and low income saying enough is enough we have no more money?

Maybe you are somehow drawing the correlation that the two demographics are the same when they are not?

Anyhow city hall has to start to work within its means, the stand on wage increases is a good start but the rest must follow

“How do you think clean drinking water enters your home, how do you think garbage is removed from your curb, sewer flows freely etc etc….get the facts” Actually it is done by technology, Pretty much any monkey with the right training can pull the right switches and push the right buttons.

Two city jobs I have witnessed, digging someones driveway 5 guys on the job, excavator operator and 4 others.More time spent standing around than working. They returned to this job more than a few times for short periods of time. Secondly pot hole patching. Why? spend and hour or two to fill a few holes than leave only to perform the same job on same road several times at an hour at a time? My guess is laziness.I pay the city workers too much already. How about get paid by the job rather than by the hour

There is the solution then…hire monkeys.

Hart Guy got what was coming to him; for all we know CUPE could be pushing for a 1% increase in wages for the first two years, yet here he is using the marginalized and the poor to not just “say” but dare he say’s “scream” enough is enough at the CUPE workers!

Let me tell you and everyone else on this discussion board; you go up to any marginalized poor family and near the very bottom of their list of concerns would be some city workers looking for a 1 % increase in their wages! Reality is the first thing they would be complaining about is the rising cost of rent thanks to city hall’s decision to tax rental suites, the second thing they would be complaining about is the rising cost of health/electricity, then probably the cost of food.

For someone, who has never stood up for the poor and the marginalized, and USE them to “scream” at the union about a minuscule wage increase is beyond reprehensible. I called him on it, and I would do it again!!!

Comment Posted by: Hello? on December 9 2013 10:34 PM
Anyone know if any of the managers or mayor and council have class 3 with air in order to drive any of the city equipment?

Good one. LOL I almost fell out of my chair laughing….

They do not do labour jobs…

Don’t forget the air-brakes. LOL

I am sure if advertised many would apply with a class 3.

It might be helpful to have Mr. Meisner or other journalist research this offer, understand where it lies in the context of other similar contracts or even show a couple examples to compare positions (e.g. what is the compensation for an operator position in CUPE vs similar job in other government sector or private industry?). Such an article would help me form a more informed opinion on the matter.

ashphalt – 8:55am – that’s too funny. 5 city people, 1 excavator 4 others. Not sure about you, but while an excavator is digging a hole I would not be the one that climbs into that hole or be near the machine while its doing its job. WCB would also have a problem with this. Yup, I agree, it always appears that guys are standing around while the excavator is doing its job. You also have no idea if while the excavator is now finished, that the hole didn’t fill up with water or sewer so again, maybe you’d care to climb into the hole?
As far as the pot hole patching, you didn’t mention what street it was or what time of day. Again, I’d not want to be patching a hole on ie: 5th or Queensway or Ospika during the day. You’ve seen the size of the pot holes, a truck can only hold so much material. They fill only a handful of holes and they may be out of material. Back to the asphalt plant for more? Just sayin’

Posted by: Jim13135 on December 10 2013 8:57 AM
There is the solution then…hire monkeys.

——————

They already have. Too many of them so far.

watching a manager drive the zamboni at the cougars game would be entertaining. So entertaining in fact it might result in more fans coming out to watch. lol

“Let me tell you and everyone else on this discussion board; you go up to any marginalized poor family and near the very bottom of their list of concerns would be some city workers looking for a 1 % increase in their wages!”

I’m pretty sure that most poor families are having trouble garnering up much sympathy for a guy making $70+ k per year not getting a 1% raise.

The union has always been fair and reasonable. Many of them have trained to be efficient in more than one job. The stuff that comes out of City hall though is an embarrassing. Mayor green should hook up with rob ford. City Hall needs to be cleaned up.
Good thing the election is less than a year away