The preceding article is brought to you by the BC Liberal party and the letter L

These mines were in the works long before the BC Jobs Plan was dreamed up.

We should keep in mind that once these mines are completed we lose the construction jobs, so this has to be balanced against the creation of new jobs.

Mining is cyclical.

Gold is down after a climb up and is expected to continue to be down in 2014.

Platinum is expected to climb some more. Palladium is also expected to climb. The auto industry is in recovery and the two metals are used in catalytic converters.

Zinc is expected to climb as is lead. Both of those are also going to see an increasing demand due to the auto industry, with zinc demand also being pushed by the expected construction industry improvement.

Copper will likely also be affected by a projected increase in construction.

Interestingly, oil and natural gas are uninteresting to investors for the time being.

So, compare that to the extraction sites which we have, which are being expanded and which are being brought on new.

Mining is ok as long as it happens somewhere else, right? ;-)

Exactly JB! Maybe all those darn mines can leave along with the pipeline guys and loggers. Get rid of those nasty coorporations too! That should bring our taxes down! We will have pristine wilderness and the lowest tax rate ever!

(Tongue firmly in cheak lest anyone miss that)

When are we going to have a ‘BC INCOMES Plan’?

One that recognises that as long as all ‘costs’ are included in ‘prices’ while current labour ‘incomes’ are only a PART, (and overall, an ever declining part at that), of ALL those ‘costs’, spending from those ‘incomes’ alone can NEVER fully liquidate all ‘costs’ through ‘prices’.

We’ll continually indebt ourselves to try to bridge the gap, which will only be closed in the present at the expense of opening it ever wider in the future.

We can create ‘jobs’ from here to eternity and this fundamental problem will remain untouched. Unless we want to do something totally stupid, and destroy every advancement of labour saving technology and turn the clock back to an era where all work was drudgery, where we really could re-experience the genuine need to “..let no man eat who has not first worked.”

Or recognise the FACTS of the situation at hand, and stop dreaming in technicolor that having some more mines, or mills, or LNG facilities, Site C dams, etc., are going to save us. Having more of all these things may be all to the well and good, but we’ll still fall far short of our potential to have the ‘good life’ for ALL, (whether that ‘All’ is employed or not), simply through them alone.

“Mining is ok as long as it happens somewhere else, right?”

I am wondering where that thought came from. Certainly not from any of the posts which preceded your, JB.

Palopu makes a point that the impact on the local economy is fleeting.

I will add that it is something that we do, provide raw materials to the rest of the world where the higher value gets added.

Do we make catalytic converters here? No.

Could we make catalytic converters here and ship them to auto assembly plants? I suspect so. And if not that, then something else.

Is mining cyclical? Of course, the same as any other commodity.

So this has what to do with the statement you made JB?

gus: “I am wondering where that thought came from. Certainly not from any of the posts which preceded your, JB.”

I was just getting out ahead of the usual crew around here who believe resource extraction is an evil activity, while at the same time enjoying the benefits of said activity. They know who they are.

All these projects going forward… unfortunately a few coal mines are not going back to work this January, permanent or temporary who knows? All these new mines were all in hover mode during the election. It is not just jobs they contribute but the unseen additions to regional district and municipalities. Mines and pipelines pay property taxes to regional districts and cities just like everyone else lowering the tax burden to simple folk like us.

For example Burrard Thermal paid 900,000 in property tax to Port Moody and that is about to drop to 100-200,000 when it is decommissioned meaning a rise in tax rates for those folks.
Kinder Morgan pays the city of Burnaby over 7 million a year in property tax, Coquitlam receives 200,000 for property tax on the pipeline right of way, and Abbotsford gets over 2 million in property taxes. If they get the go ahead to twin the line the estimate is over 22 million a year additional property taxes to municipalities in BC.
Northern Gateway expects approx 36 million in property taxes to municipalities and regional districts on top of what it will pay for crossing private land and reserves.

Natural gas lines in the past were done on easements which saves them a bundle as easements are forever free

More live-in mining camps, more fly-in-fly-out (FIFO) jobs, little economic impact to Prince George and surrounding north central communities.

Wake up people, aren’t you getting tried of the 14 year Liberal Government promise that we are on the verge (the precipice) of an economic BOOM here in northern BC?

Yup… we are “poised” and “well positioned” to take full advantage of the coming economic BOOM, but it never comes… just like our Airport expansion… still waiting for those giant cargo planes to land, yet some still believe and hang onto false hope and lies!

LOL…. P#1, obviously you don’t work at IPG.

Almost every heavy equipment dealer out in BCR services mines in the area… No economic benifits for pg?? Some people have their heads in their ass..

Yeah right northman, take every single indicator of economic health in this area are all in the tank!!!

Housing starts? Next to nothing; Population? dropping; Unemployment rate not bad because so many people have left the area; child school enrolment? Finally stopped dropping, just levelling off. Commercial and office vacancy rate in PG? Way up; Need I go on northman???

Why do you think every time Crusty Clark comes up here she goes on and on about “we (northern BC) will lead not just this province, but our country out of the recession”

You Lib-Cons need to start facing reality, there will be no economic BOOM up here. Every single resource extraction company will operate on the cheap, build their own camps, hire their own outside workers, extract our resources, and then move on.

We need to elect a government that will:

1. As part of the permitting process, ensure those natural resources are extracted in a value-added, environmentally safe, and sustainable manner.

2. Insist that resource extraction companies hire a minimum percentage of local people in their workforce, i.e. 60-70%. Set up training programs for locals to get any necessary skills with guaranteed job placements in those resource extraction projects.

3. Insist that resource extraction companies, not build live-in camps, but rather bus their workers in from the nearest communities (Mount Milligan without a live-in camp as an example).

People#1, please define ‘value-added’. Is it not “any further process beyond the initial stages of any product’s manufacture that can return its costs plus an additional profit”? If it CAN’T “return its costs plus an additional profit”, why do it? And if it CAN, do you honestly think you could stop someone from doing it?

It looks like Oman is going to be doing it right!!!

“The government is moving to boost Oman’s mining industry, announcing plans to review additional licence applications in 2014. However, any new concessions are likely to be tied to amended investment conditions that will require raw materials to be processed before export. Such stipulations create local employment and add value to the exports.”

http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/economic_updates/oman-adding-value-mining

Wow, are we ever backwards here in Canada and BC, shipping out our RAW natural resources with no value added!

Christies BC Jobs Plan is a proven failure!

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2013/05/09/jim-sinclair-the-terrible-truth-about-the-b-c-liberals-b-c-jobs-plan/

It’s easier and cheaper for the corps to export raw materials than it is to process them here. No headaches for them worrying about labor unrest and having to pay the citizens of Canada a living wage.

“value-added, environmentally safe, and sustainable manner”

1.value added … as socredible posts, there is obviously value added. What he does not mention is in what region of the world the value is added. We cannot even define it any more refined than by province. That suits the provincial government, no matter who is in power, because no one has ever put a system in place that will define it any more precisely. We have macro economic definition here but no micro economic. We have defined economic regions, but no way of determining where the money ends up when a project occurs in one or more of those regions. Totally bizzare!!
2.Environmentally safe ….. there is no such thing. All resource extractions have environmental risks attached to them. The question is, how much risk are we willing to accept? That depends on the economic and social gains which can be had. That changes with time and it changes with the social view of such matters. It also changes with the geographic location in the world. Some jurisdictions are willing to take more risks than others.
3.Sustainable manner …. There is no such thing when mining finite resources as opposed to renewable resources. On might find finite resources that have either never been discoverable before or finite resources which were never considered to be accessible. BUT every single one of that type of resource is finite and thus unsustainable ad infinitum.
So., each of those three categories require definitions with more refined conditions added to them before we can have more meaningful discussion since we each have totally different definitions when we write about them.

It is easy to roll the words “value-added, environmentally safe, and sustainable manner” off one’s tongue. It is much more complicated to define what is meant by them.

A cumulative impacts study would be both interesting and valuable.
So much activity, but no real idea of the impacts other than the financial benefits.

I concede that there is no such thing as environmentally safe resource extraction, however there are acceptable levels of environmentally safe resource extraction.

How about for starters, we elect a provincial government that will actually take charge, review, and approve environmental assessments instead of handing the assessment process over to a BIG OIL & GAS run Federal Government?

These FIFO camps have people from surrounding communities flying in to their camps. You don’t think PG has anyone flying into the mining camps? They bring their entire paycheck here for the wife and family and themselves on days off.

You do realize just how long it would take a bus to reach Mt. Milligan Mine from PG or even Mackenzie, and ever drive the Finlay FSR in the spring/summer or the North Road? And to do this daily per shift? You have no idea what you are saying, I drove to the Nation Lakes junction from Ft St James and it took two hours on a good day. The Finlay direction from Mackenzie (if the ferry is running) takes longer, and you may end up stuck unless the ground is frozen – that is with a pickup, never mind a bus.

And as for your point #2, we don’t need to insist

In October 2013, there are more than 350 people working at Mount Milligan. More than 60 per cent of the permanent workforce comes from the communities of Mackenzie, McLeod Lake, Prince George, Vanderhoof, Fraser Lake and Fort St James.

As for point #1 that is part of the permitting process and the Environmental Assessment Office to decide.

People #1: I don’t know about you, but wouldn’t you rather live in a camp that is close to the worksite rather than have to drive or be driven a couple hundred clicks everyday just to go to work?

Take Mt Milligan just as an example. The mine is a good 90 clicks from Mackenzie. I don’t know what the work schedule is like but if you work 12 hrs a day and then have a two hour commute on top of that? Well, thats not very fun. I’d much rather live in camp for work and then live where I want on my days off. Not everyone wants to live in a small town like Mackenzie or Ft St James.

Slinky: We got rid of the ferry across Williston Lake a number of years ago when they built a permanent bridge across the lake at the south end.

I have every idea what I am saying slinky! You ever think about all those people living in the lower mainland valley driving to work in Vancouver during rush-hour? Imagine… sitting in their vehicles in bumper to bumper traffic for up to 2 hours one way, and 4 hours round trip?

A 1 hour drive from Mackenzie, or Fort St. James by bus to Milligan would be a fricken PICNIC compared to the drive to and back from work in the lower mainland… yet hundreds of thousands of people do it every single day!!!

Glad I could bring you back to reality slinky, because sometimes you can be way out there.

Value added ya right, then all the nimbys come out. How do you power value added considering the opposition to new energy?

I like this from Gus, “Some jurisdictions are willing to take more risks than others.”, very PP.

Considering record cold all over the world, ice increasing at the poles, stuck ice breakers people#1 should be happy, looks like climate change is over.

“Christies BC Jobs Plan is a proven failure!”

Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.

Jim Sinclair has never voiced any favourable opinion about any BC government’s policies and actions when the government in power was not the one he voted for.

If it is in power, out come the rose coloured glasses…no matter what.

Just saying…

Mining Hype = Higher Assessments leading to higher property taxes ….

“I like this from Gus, “Some jurisdictions are willing to take more risks than others.”, very PP.”

Yes totally agree, some jurisdictions like China are will to take more risks than others:

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-water-pollution-2013-3?op=1

That’s just water pollution care to look at their air?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/world/asia/air-pollution-linked-to-1-2-million-deaths-in-china.html

So everyone… how much risk are we will to take? Too bad a growing number of resource extraction companies in Canada are Chinese owned and operated, we can see how much respect they have for their environment, so how much respect would they have for our’s?

Population in Ft McMurray, Kamloops, Nanaimo, Kelowna, Grande Prairie increased significantly since 2001.

Population of Prince Rupert, Terrace, Kitimat, declined during the same period. Pr George over the same period declined from a population of 72,406 in 2001 to 71,974 in 2011. Census Canada figures.

I expect that there has been some increase in populations in Kitimat, Terrace, Pr Rupert, and Prince George since 2011, but not much.

Its pretty obvious that we are having trouble just holding on to what we have let alone grow.

While we hype the jobs created by mining, we remain silent on the jobs lost through mill closures. This year between Quesnel and Houston, we will lose 500 plus forestry jobs.

So all is not well in the Northern Interior. The mining jobs will certainly help, however they will not turn this economy around.

But, but, but Palopu, Christy said, almost 3 years ago, that we are on the precipice of an economic BOOM, a BOOM so large that we (northern BC) will not only lead the province but our country out of the recession.

Hmm… who to believe? ;-)

Good thing the NDP isn’t in power, or mining would be dead.

Dragonmaster: “Christies BC Jobs Plan is a proven failure!

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2013/05/09/jim-sinclair-the-terrible-truth-about-the-b-c-liberals-b-c-jobs-plan/“

Oh, Jim Sinclair doesn’t like the government. In other news, the sky is blue.

gus:-“1. value added … as socredible posts, there is obviously value added. What he does not mention is in what region of the world the value is added.”
——————————————-I think we have to be careful not to confuse ‘value’ added with ‘cost’ added. Especially if that cost can’t be recovered fully in price. Then we haven’t really added any ‘value’ at all.

Our current financial system is far from perfect, but one thing it can do very accurately is determine prices relative to costs, which is the essence of ‘capitalism’. (Whether we can always actually PAY those prices, in money itself, is quite another thing).

If you look at it from the point of view many seem to hold, particularly those on the left, that anything that increases the labour content of any product made here is automatically adding ‘value’ irrespective of any additions to ‘cost’, you’d have to take a position which is, I think, somewhat untenable.

It would be like saying a large, raw gemstone, like the Hope diamond, for instance, would have more ‘value’ added to it if it were cleaved and faceted and finished as four smaller diamonds than as one big one ~ simply because the work, and wages, of the diamond cutters would be multiplied by four. And we know this isn’t so.

And there all kinds of similar examples where any attempt to wring more ‘value’ out of some manufacturing process only adds ‘costs’ to it that can’t be recovered. And in certain instances oftentimes even devalues the thing we’re trying to add value to.
——————————————

Gus:- “We cannot even define it any more refined than by province. That suits the provincial government, no matter who is in power, because no one has ever put a system in place that will define it any more precisely.
——————————————
That, unfortunately, is the best we’ll ever be able to do so long as no modern industrial economy in any jurisdiction anywhere is able to be fully ‘financially’ self-liquidating in regards to all its own Production as it, or its exchange through trade internationally, becomes its Consumption.

There isn’t one industrialised country, even ones that are quite capable of being completely, or very nearly completely, physically self-sufficient, (as is Canada), whose population can actually buy and fully pay for ALL the goods and services it produces from the collective incomes paid them in the course of making that production. Not one.

Not that we would want to, which we would not, but financially we COULD NOT even if we did. Even if it were possible to scale back production to what we would normally consume internally ourselves, plus what little extra we needed to barter for articles we can’t grow or procure internally.

ALL modern industrialised countries need to run a ‘favourable’ trade balance, where they export more than they import and receive international ‘credit’ convertible into their own currency for the difference. Not that any really need to import some other country’s ‘money’ to live, (which is the height of ridiculousness, really, since any country’s national ‘money’ is really only EFFECTIVE DEMAND for THEIR goods and services. Not OURS, or anyone elses.

But we don’t want THEIR goods and services, just a pretense that they owe us something we can never allow them to get in a position to actually pay.)
——————————————
Gus:- “We have macro economic definition here but no micro economic. We have defined economic regions, but no way of determining where the money ends up when a project occurs in one or more of those regions. Totally bizzare!!”
——————————————
It’s not only a question of ‘where’ the money ends up, but ‘what’ it will actually buy in each economic region. It’s complicated further by efforts to try to use money as something, in a larger sense, it can never really be ~ a standard, or measure, of value.

All value is subjective, and as such it is really impossible to measure it in terms of money. (That may seem like a contradiction when it is applied to what I’ve said about ‘value added’, but it really is not.)

Modern money is not even primarily a ‘medium of exchange’ anymore. Because more and more all of us who ‘consume’, everywhere, are being rendered superfluous to any actual need for us to ‘produce’.

“some jurisdictions like China”

While China has a large population and China is on a major growth cycle and requires to access resources to feed it, I think you are looking at the wrong location.

Look at parts of South America as well as Africa where not only China is doing business with countries that have resources, but also Canada.

Some of the same companies that operate in Canada and have to meet regulations here, they also operate in other countries where they take advantage of weaker regulations. In fact, Canada has had international fingers pointed at it from European countries for unsafe and unethical practices in foreign copper mines, for example.

So let’s not play the holier-than-thou games.
========================================

On another matter, here is a table of the value of the mining sector by country as a percentage of the total value of all industrial sectors by country.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/environment/Contribution_of_mining.htm

Here is the percentage attributable to Canadian national mining production over the years. That figure includes oil and gas.
19808.50
19857.72
19904.35
19953.85
20006.09
20015.76
20025.00
20036.34
20047.11
20058.64
20068.61
20078.43
20088.17
20097.70

A very cyclical figure influenced by commodity prices, discoveries, the cycle of other industries, recessions, etc.?

The same table for Oman
198060.61
198550.44
199049.28
199539.73
200049.73
200143.73
200242.49
200341.66
200442.72
200548.58
200647.00
200743.90
200850.24
200947.04

Sine Oman is realizing it is running out of oil, it is now looking into the future and how they can get more from that resource.

Canada seems to not understand that quite yet.

Posted by: People#1 on January 5 2014 6:35 PM
I have every idea what I am saying slinky!
————————————-

Knock knock, anyone home? (obviously not)

The workers perform a 12 hour shift. The drive by bus is an hour and a half at the best of times from FSJ or Mackenzie by bus (they did have a bus doing this daily BTW).

That puts you at 15 hours. The drive to PG is another hour and a half at best from either FSJ or Mackenzie.

So someone going to work on day 1 – drives 1.5 hours to FSJ, boards a bus and rides 1.5 hours to the mine, then works a 12 hour shift, boards a bus to FSJ, and then gets in to his car/truck for the drive to PG. 18 hours after he left his driveway (not counting any delays or arriving at the pickup site a little early so as not to miss the bus) he gets home.

Less than 6 hours later he has to be back on the road to FSJ for day 2.

Posted by: Say Say Say . . . on January 5 2014 7:06 PM
Mining Hype = Higher Assessments leading to higher property taxes ….
————————————
The two are not necessarily connected in the way you think, just means that if your assessment went up and someone else in the same municipality had theirs go down, your share of the property tax burden is now larger. The mill rate is determined by the amount of money the city requires for the year divided by value of all the assessments put together.

In the mind of johnnyboy, if you are against northern gateway, you are against all resource extraction anywhere in BC regardless of where it is.
Yawwwwn, what a tired old mantra.
Also if you are against northern gateway, you are a hypocrite and should move out of your house and live in a cave and freeze in the dark. Yawwwwn, also a tired old mantra.

“The Finlay direction from Mackenzie (if the ferry is running) takes longer, and you may end up stuck unless the ground is frozen – that is with a pickup, never mind a bus.” Its obvious you haven’t been on that side of the lake lately. It takes about 2 hours to get to manson that way and that is a lot farther than milligan.
WHO has no idea what they are saying?

“Good thing the NDP isn’t in power, or mining would be dead” Why? Do they cause the price of resources to drop? If they money is to be made, it doesn’t matter what govt is in office, the mines will open and operate.

If you are the bus driver and it takes you one and a half hours to drive 86 kms, you should be fired!! That is how far it is from Mount Milligan to Fort St. James. It’s a one hour trip tops!!!

“The Mt. Milligan property is located within the Omenica Mining Division in North Central British Columbia, Canada approximately 155 km northwest of Prince George, 86 km north of Fort St. James, 95 km west of Mackenzie. Mt. Milligan’s primary access will be from Fort St. James, although access can also beb gained from the east via Mackenzie.”

http://www.infomine.com/suppliers/minedevelopments/milligan/welcome.asp

The location and distance makes it more than feasible for workers to live in FSJ or Mackenzie and buss to and from the mine on a daily basis!

The presentation of these facts, as you read them, must be entering your brain via your perfectly working eyes and optic nerves, yet your brain seem unable to process these facts… I can’t help you with that… might want to see a specialist.

Posted by: gus on January 5 2014 8:48 PM
“some jurisdictions like China”
Here is the percentage attributable to Canadian national mining production over the years. That figure includes oil and gas.
——————————-

Just trying to figure out what you are trying to say here, this is a list of the percentage that mining (+oil and gas) is of the entire countries value added (the net output of a sector after adding up all outputs and subtracting intermediate inputs). Are you saying the underground sector should be a higher percentage of our total industry value added?

In 2008 Canada’s value added all sectors was 453 billion, in 2008 mining was 8.17 percent of that or 37 billion. Oman was 13 and a half billion in 2004, mining being 42.72% of that or 5 and a half billion. Like I said before, not sure where you are going with this.
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/NV.IND.TOTL.CD/rankings

If you are trying to say we need to have more value added as a percentage of the total GDP then scroll to the bottom of the page of each country. Oman in 2004 total industry value added was 55.11% of GDP. Canada’s total industry value added was 31.62% of GDP in 2004. But still hard to know exactly where you are leading us.

1990 to 2001 is the term of the BC NDP…look at your percentage of mining value added for those years, coincidence?

People#1 – that is as a crow flies, not by road

Wow… so if you drive for one and a half hours at only 58 kilometres per hour you travel 87 kms, which covers the 86 kilometre distance from FSJ to Milligan.

Question: Who drives a bus at 58 kms per hour??? Answer: an 80 year old with poor eyesight and slow reaction time… LOL. Yeah, we could give that kind of driver an hour and a half to cover the 86 kilometres. Can you imagine the long line of pissed off logging truck drivers and pickup truck drivers following this painfully slow bus down the road?

58 kilometers per hour.. thats how fast most of us legally drive in city limits… LOL.

Unless your buses are magical and fly – the bus from Fort St James will travel 7km on pavement and then rest is dirt. 58kms up the North Road, 16kms on the Rainbow FSR, 32kms on Finlay-Phillips (North Phillips) FSR, 1.5km on the Philips Cut Off Road, and about 17.5 km of the Finlay-Causeway to the mine (by the road permits from MOF). Or 7km pavement and +/- 125km dirt. The road also includes logging trucks and radio control with 3 changes of frequency unless they changed the frequencies since I was up there last.

Have Milligan operations run 24 hours a day on three 8 hour shifts. So that’s 8 hours work per day plus your so called 3 hour round trip = 11 hours.

8 hours sleep per night, means 5 precious hours of family time every day… gotta like that. Then you have your weekends to yourself and family, I like the balance of work and quality of “life” in my scenario.

It’s way too skewed towards accommodating industry and business these days, workers and families need to relax and enjoy a bit of life :-) Umm… you know like they use to do… remember?

Holy smoke…People#1. You are completely out of touch. I’ve been on these roads that you talk about between Mackenzie and Mt Milligan. It isn’t a frikken highway for crying out loud. Its a forest service road. They’ve made some improvements but for the most part it is still twisty, steep, and rough in places.

You seem to think its a two lane highway. Trust me…it ain’t. You’re not going to be bootin it along at 90 kph on that road if you know what’s good for you.