Unfortunately, it will be difficult or impossible to officially abolish the senate. It would require a change to the constitution and consent of all provinces. However there is a simple solution. Don’t appoint any new senators. Given average life expectancy, we could get rid of the senate in 30-40 years.

I think we should be fixing the system rather than letting the system go uncontrolled which is what has been happening.

Bicameral systems are in place in most countries which are federations of individual states or provinces. That most often occurs in countries which are the largest or most diverse in the world.

They have the capacity to represent diverse constituencies

They prevent the passage of potentially flawed legislation

With two legislative bodies, there is enhanced oversight of the executive branch.

Canada has a weak system which has allowed its system to deteriorate similar to the UK. Germany, the US, and Russia are examples of strong systems where the upper houses take time to properly examine issues which take regionalism into consideration.

In Russia, for instance, the upper house may reject a law passed by the lower house, but the lower house can override the upper house with a two-thirds majority.

The systems is broken. I say face that fact and fix it!!

Then again, maybe those who are abusing the system are actually Senate abolitionists and some are falling for their tactics.

kolberg, yours is a typical Canadian response to a problem, don’t address it, just hope that eventually it will go away.

In my opinion it will not work since some organization will take the government to the Supreme Court of Canada to claim that the inaction to appoint Senators is unconstitutional and I predict they will win that fight hands down.

I would expect the ruling from the court to be that the government either make the necessary appointments or change the Constitution.

Nobody has done anything to tackle the senate issue. On the contrary, Harper appointed dozens of senators, 18 in a single day if my memory serves me right. Trudeau took a small step in the right direction. Abolishing the senate is a bad idea, in my opinion. Rather than admitting defeat let’s get started changing it into something that works. Other democracies with upper and lower chambers may inspire us to follow their example, if we are not to proud to do so.

Should be: if we are not too proud to do so.

As an election promise to reform the senate (3E) . Instead of harper doing what he said he would do he stacked the senate with 59 cronies for the con money machine . Unlike harper ,Justin Trudeau , did something too help canada . Now there are only two bodies in the senate . Independents and conservatives . Regardless of how one views this move .it is far from status quo . It also overwhelmingly shows harper for the hypocrite that he is . Like he said of Mulcair . The only reason you ( Mulcair ) want to abolish is that you have no NDP senators . That statement speaks more about harper than it does Mulcair ,his 59 appointees and the 9 in waiting . Harper has already beat mulroneys record for stuff the senate .If JTs move were nothing . Then it would not have the NDP and reformacons running around the topic like headless chickens . It’s early but it’s a game changer IMHO .

Accountability, would sure be a better place if people were held accountable for there decisions they made while in power..Due diligence!!

“If Tredeau wanted to make the Senate “independent” he would have either introduced a bill in theHouse to have the Senate abolished or, at the very least, to have the Senate elected”

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Ben, you know or at least should know that abolishing the Senate is not something that could be accomplished by a simple motion within Parliament. The same goes for having it elected. Like it or not, those options would almost certainly require a constitutional amendment, which likely won’t be happening in your lifetime and possibly even mine. It’s silly to suggest he or anyone could accomplish that by introducing a bill in the House. It would be utterly pointless.

What Trudeau did accomplish (and you fail to mention this) was removing all of those senators from the Liberal caucus, the area where they would have direct access and influence to what the party is planning, how they intend on governing, etc. Of course many of the senators are still “Liberals”. It’s unrealistic to think that people won’t be aligned with certain political leanings. That said, by being removed from caucus and formally identified as independent, they all have the ability to vote as they wish. If Harper did the exact same thing tomorrow, removed all of the Conservative senators from caucus, made them independent and told them they could vote however they wished, the power and influence of the senate could change overnight.

Whether those folks would choose to accept that power and that new role is up to them, but you shouldn’t find fault in a leader who would give them that ability. In fact, this move should be supported. I’ve been following this with a fair bit of interest out here and I think it’s quite telling that many conservative supporters even support what Trudeau has done. It’s not perfect and time will tell whether it will have an impact, but it’s something tangible and it was done by the leader of the third party for crying out loud!

If you watched Pierre Poilievre’s response shortly after the announcement, you would have seen the resemblance to a deer in the headlights. The Conservatives were caught completely off guard and likely embarrassed that Trudeau accomplished more with senate reform in 25 minutes than what they’ve accomplished in 8 years. Yet again, the “inexperienced guy with no platform” out-flanked the government and this time he was getting support from many people in THEIR corner.

I agree with Ataloss. It’s early, but the depth of strategy with this move goes far beyond what most casual observers are noting. All IMHO of course.

p.s. While this was ruffling political feathers in Ottawa, the way that Julian Fantino treated those veterans was ruffling the feathers of every single person on right wing radio. I’ve never heard so much anger and disgust towards a politician in my life and these were comments from “the base”. The Conservatives are falling apart at the seams.

Well put nmg . The stark reality is the difference between the democracy we desire and the whiptalkcracy that we live under . It’s a sad shadow of democracy when our elected representatives represent a party and not the people of his or her riding . We need coalition not division .

I think this is the boldest move on government reform we have seen in my lifetime, and I applaud Justin Trudeau for doing what was the right thing to do in moving the Senate towards the kind of legislative body it should be.

Its rubbish and simpleton to think we can just abolish the Senate and all problems in Ottawa will be solved. It is also not possible without opening up the constitution… something Harper is aiming for, but god forbid that ever happens with his track record of police state reforms.

We should be aiming for an elected senate of independents that represent their provincial jurisdictions and not party hacks. What Justin Trudeau has done is make that a possibility now when he becomes the next Prime Minister in 2015.

The conservatives however are stuck in the old school insider club and will only be seen more and more for the two faced hacks they are when it comes to institutional reforms.

Canada needs oversight… Canada needs a chamber of second thought that can act as a check on the unchecked power of political party insiders that rule with an iron fist in our most dysfunctional and undemocratic Parliament. We are essentially on the road to a corpocracy police state under Harper, and any decentralization of power, even from a 3rd party in the Parliament, is a step back towards true democracy.

I think the actions of Justin Trudeau are the actions of a true leader willing to lead by the ideas and policy alone, rather than the abuse of power to make a mockery of the Senate as Harper has done.

Harper is at least trying to do something to reform the Senate. What Trudeau did was what you would expect from a bleeding heart Liberal. Make a few cosmetic changes, while nothing really changes.

1. The Liberals Senators are still Liberal Senators.

2. If the Liberals ever again form the Government (which is highly unlikely) they will continue to appoint Senators.

3. If Justin Trudeau is a true leader, then this Country would be in serious trouble,. However the likelihood of him forming the next Government are slim to not at all.

4. The Liberal and the NDP will (as usual) fight over their leftist policies, and split the vote, that will at the very least allow Harper to form a minority Government, however another majority is the more likely scenario.

5. I suppose that the proposition that the Liberal and NDP join forces, or only run in designated ridings will raise its head again, however no action will be take in that area. We have Trudeau who wants to pretend to be a leader, and Muclair who wants to be Mr Big Shot, and its highly unlikely that they will work together.

6. Throw in the apathy of Canadian Voters, and you have the recipe for another Harper victory.

The good thing about the NDP and Liberals losing the next election is that they still win, because they will have a stable Government and Harper as a good Prime Minister. So for them, its a win win.

Palopu: “Harper is at least trying to do something to reform the Senate.”

So, how come you do not explain clearly what that is in the same number of detailed points you try to explain your misgivings about Trudeau?

Until you do, I will assume you can’t.

From the link below comes the news that the Canada West Foundation supports Trudeau and disses Harper.

“Justin Trudeau’s decision to boot senators out of the Liberal caucus is being hailed as more in western Canada’s interests than Stephen Harper’s “misguided” efforts to democratize the unelected chamber.

“And that verdict is coming from a most surprising quarter: a think tank that has championed an elected Senate for decades and is based in the prime minister’s hometown, Calgary.

“The irony of the Canada West Foundation endorsing Trudeau’s plan for Senate reform while criticizing Harper’s is almost jaw-dropping.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/31/trudeau-senate-harper-think-tank_n_4700454.html

Exactly… you should be a cheer leader in a skirt for Harper Palopu. Not a single point on the topic of the Senate reforms, and only the typical partisan conservative attack on the opposition.

Do you have anything positive to say about any reforms Harper has made to the Senate (maybe a promise he has actually kept lol) and how Harpers reforms will improve the Senates functionality for Canadians, or are you just blind with partisan support because that is all you know?

Great article Ben. Like Skakun, people seem to be taken by Trudeau who has lots of sizzle, but no steak.

Still running for the conservative nomination Johnnygreen?

What’s the matter Eagle? Did I touch a nerve?

Ben stated the following: “If Tredeau wanted to make the Senate “independen”t he would have either introduced a bill in theHhouse to have the Senate abolished …”

I am not too sure how one goes about making a body independent by abolishing it …… ;-)

After spending much of the day thinking that one through, and then falling back to seek help from some of the best search engines on the internet, even the scholars section, I was unable to find anyone else’s thinking about that.

So, I kind’a left it to a catch 22 situation and gave up.

The article further states: “The Senate has, and will be, the chamber not for second thoughts, but rather where those people who have performed well for a political party go as a reward for their service.”

So one should not be rewarded for good service? It seems to me that is exactly how society operates …. if one provides good service, one may be rewarded. Rewards are not guaranteed, but good service in someone’s eyes is what gets rewarded.

The problem is, that if one were to be rewarded, one actually finds that they have to continue to provide service and that service is expected to be as good as past service. I am not sure how more work at a time one should be retired to pursue their own dreams can be considered a reward. Even workaholics must have some sort of private life that they would prefer to dedicate more of their time to.

Hey, maybe we can bring that currently faddish word “entitlement” in and attach it to a much more appropriate use. It even has the word “title” in it ….. lord, senator, elder ….. those titles actually typically have entitlements attached to them and they are typically given to people who have proven their dedication to their community and country.

Eagleone. My support of Harper was nothing more than a balance for your constant crying about how Harper is ruining the Country, and how he is to blame for everything that goes wrong.

How the Hell he can be blamed for everything in the few short years he has been in Government is beyond me.

You should put blame where it belongs, Ie; Elder Trudeau, Paul (Mr Dithers) Martin. John Chretian, and last but not least Brian (lying) Mulroney .

Harper is not responsible for the bloody mess in the Senate. This is a result of many years of abuse by both parties, and all the Senators,. One would have hoped that these so called **leaders** of society would show some leadership, and have some integrity over the years, however it hasn’t happened yet.

Is Trudeau the answer? Not bloody likely, the NDP socialist hordes, who cannot survive without a Government cheque?? Not likely.

In Canadian politics we usually have three people trying to be Prime Minister. Usually all three are losers, and so we elect the best of the worst. In Harpers case we had a **walk on walk off** Prime Minister who will not bow down and kiss a…

If I was him I would not waste my time trying to Govern a nation of whiners. I would leave that to the professional whiners and go about my business.

No not at all Johnnygreen, just an inference.

Palopu the problem is Harper has never worked a day in his life in private business… so where would he walk off too lol… maybe daddies big bankster oil business?

Lets face it the man has been prime minister for 8 years now and is not just new to the position. He has appointed the majority of current Senators and all of the ones that had to be removed for… lets face it problems associated with using their positions to elect more conservatives and in doing so abusing Senate privileges… a far cry from the man of the taxpayers federation that would have cried far and loud if any other PM did the same thing. Lets face it Harper does not walk the talk, and you are his greatest apologist.

As for the elder Trudeau, I was his biggest critic and still to this day think he was to much of an arrogant no good for BC, Quebec centric politician. His son had a lot to prove in my mind, but sometimes I can be wrong and more and more I’m willing to give his son the benefit of doubt… he is winning my vote and confidence. The rest of the Power Corp gang also had their own elite agenda… Mulroney had his judgement on election day, deservedly…. Chretien was a Trudeau the elder clone, but he did keep us out of Iraq… and Martin was wholly owned and controlled by Power Corp, but he did keep our banks solvent and bring us surplus budgets.

Harper owns his mess and this stuff that he is new to the job just doesn’t cut it… especially when talking about the Senate and all his broken promises. Stop whining and blaming everyone else for his incompetence and two faced electioneering. Man up to the debate of policy, and the actual track record of the man you defend.

How is Harper to be blamed for all the troubles in Ottawa you ask… lol and are we still talking about Harper the most controlling PM in Canadian history… lets blame it all on Mulclair and Justine Trudeau who have no real power what-so-ever… typical conservative partisan double speak.

I use to be a believer in the Reform agenda and supported them… Harper has turned that on its face.

Harper came out of nowhere, reorganized the Conservative Party, and against all odds became the Prime Minister of Canada.

As Prime Ministers go, and leaders go, he is probably the best we are going to get.

We can all wax philosophically about the Senate, World Trade, Pipeline, etc; but while we are doing that, we should keep in mind that we cannot get the snow cleared off our streets, we cannot solve a parking problem, we cannot get the City to get us out of debt, nor can we stop them from wheeling and dealing behind closed doors to the detriment of taxpayers.

If you cannot keep your own house in order (City of Prince George) then why waste your time and effort to change the **Big House**

We just completed an election where Christie Clark put on a hard hat, passed out hot dogs, promised to build a few LNG plants, and we elected her. Good God.

People cannot name their eight Councilors, their MLA’s, their MP’S and we expect them to get concerned about the Senate?? If it wasn’t for the recent scandal there would be no discussion on this issue.

There’s an old saying.

God give’s the big crosses to the big hosses, and the little crosses to the little hosses.

We in Prince George are for all intents and purposes **little hosses** and its time we appreciated that fact, and did something to solve the local issues, rather than pretend that we are big players on the world scene.

It took me about half a second to think, Does he really think the majority of voters believe him? What a crock! And, they have said, “We’re going to stay Liberal”
Yet the media, barring 250, has a hayday over it. What a silly joke!

In my humble opinion, Justin Trudeau in making his so call “bold move” to make a bunch of no name brand senators, was no more then putting lip stick on a pig. At the end of the day they are still “senators” “with Liberal roots” – so what’s all the hype about in the mostly dominated Liberal media? By the way, last time I checked,”pigs” don’t fly. This is nothing more that a big pile of pig #$%^ – and the majority of Canadians can smell it.

Every time Harper tried to get agreement amongst the other Parties on the desirability of reforming the Senate they’d have none of it. So he’s only played by the rules they’ve refused to change. When he plays that way he’s criticised for doing so; if he moved to reform it unilaterally he’d be criticised for being a dictator. I agree with Palopu. Harper’s not perfect, but he’s far better as a PM than either of the two who want to replace him would ever be.