Possible actions if the bctf prevail might include some or all of the following

still lots of schools in the province operating at far below capacity expect school closures and changes to catchment areas resulting in fewer schools with full enrollment.

Year round schooling which would make better use of existing buildings and staff. One unexpected consequence might be that the kids could graduate after 11 years meaning fewer teachers required as there is no longer a grade 12.

fringe programs such as music, drama,metalwork and woodwork find themselves on the chopping block. Focus on core subjects only.

Would be nice if the BCTF, after receiving the 2 million bucks allows and funds seminars all over the province for many board members. Selected trustees headed to Whistler or Harrison Hot Springs for a few days to “discuss and plan” future policies. Could happen.

Just remember the Liberals did this to themselves and to US, the TAXPAYERS. My sympathy is with the teachers that have been pushed into the corner. I wish the Liberals had to pay the bills out of their party coffers rather than with our tax dollars.

BCTF have had to pay millions to lawyers to fight these illegal Liberal acts.

etwitt states; “still lots of schools in the province operating at far below capacity expect school closures and changes to catchment areas resulting in fewer schools with full enrollment.”

State your sources etwitt; Forty-four of B.C.’s 60 school districts have closed 176 schools since 2002. Almost half (50%)of the schools in our own school district have been closed since 2001 to address a 25% reduction in enrolment. Now overcrowding is a concern in schools in our school district.

The last part of your comment doesn’t even make sense; “expect school closures and changes to catchment areas resulting in “more” (not fewer) schools with full enrollment.”

Thanks for playing etwitt… wow… does this government have anyone with brains justifying their incompetent actions?

I think it is very foolish of the government to appeal this decision. Class size clearly has a significant impact on teachers’ working conditions. It is therefore something that they are entitled to negotiate. Insofar as teachers have a constitutional right to bargain collectively as they clearly do, and that right extends to working conditions, as it clearly does, the Province lacks the authority to exclude class size a priori from contract negotiations. From everything I have seen, this is not a subtle legal question. Appealing the decision will only delay the inevitable. The government should recognize that it has to negotiate this issue and get on with it.

As the previous story regarding this Government/BCTF issue is now closed to new posts and not having the opportunity to receive much in the way of intelligent comments related to my last post, I’ll take this opportunity to repost Michael Smyth’s comments in his “Back the the Barricades?” opinion piece in the Feruary 02, 2014 editin of the Vancouver Province Newspaper.

He states:

On what grounds could the government appeal? Consider this twisted history of the dispute:

Many of the class-size limits and staffing levels the Liberals scrapped in 2002 had been brought in by the previous union-friendly NDP government. Back in 1998, then-premier Glen Clark struck a deal with the teachers’ union to reduce class sizes from kindergarten through Grade 3 and hire 1,200 new librarians, counsellors, English as a Second Language instructors, special education teachers and learning assistants.

Teachers ratified the deal, voting 73 per cent in favour. But school-district trustees — representing the teachers’ employers — voted 87 per cent against.

Trustees rejected the deal because it was too costly and inflexible. Ironically, one prominent Victoria trustee who complained was Carole James, who would go on to become NDP leader. “It’s going to be a challenge to get the schools open in September, to get the staffing in place,” James said at
the time.

What did the NDP government do with a tentative union contract opposed by the teachers’ employers? They rammed it through the legislature and forced it into law over the objection of school districts. In other words, the Liberals have now been found guilty of bad-faith bargaining for removing contract provisions that were arguably imposed through bad-faith bargaining by the NDP.

The government argued in court that stripping the teachers’ contract was not illegal because the contract had not been freely negotiated in the first place. The judge rejected the argument, though you can bet the government will raise the point again in any appeal.”

So, after reading Mr. Smyth’s column, we now find ourselves in a situation where our School Trustees are studying the ramifications of the actions of the Liberal government, just as they were forced to study the ramifications of the actions of the former NDP government. Seems that everything old is new again!

The NDP rammed through legislation to the benefit of their supporters in the BCTF. Now, the Liberals have rammed through or attempted to ram through legislation dismantling the previous governments costly and inflexible deal.

We got stuck paying the costs of the NDP’s sweetheart deal to the union and now we will get stuck paying the costs of the Liberals action.

Hart Guy states; “Many of the class-size limits and staffing levels the Liberals scrapped in 2002 had been brought in by the previous union-friendly NDP government. Back in 1998, then-premier Glen Clark struck a deal with the teachers’ union to reduce class sizes from kindergarten through Grade 3 and hire 1,200 new librarians, counsellors, English as a Second Language instructors, special education teachers and learning assistants.”

Yet here we are Hart Guy, in 2014, with the lowest teacher to student ratio in Canada. Please tell us how this is good for our kids, particularly the IEP students!

Statistics Canada data shows B.C. has the worst class-size averages in Canada and the lowest teacher-to-student ratio, and it has been stated publically in the media, that the province would need 6,600 teachers to get B.C. to the Canadian average teacher-to-student ratio.

This Lib-Con government is not just picking on teachers, they are picking on our kids! Highest child poverty rate in Canada and worse teacher-to-student ratio in Canada!

I don’t expect a response from you Hart Guy, how can you defend someone else’s thoughts and words that you post in such a parrot like fashion?

“Yet here we are Hart Guy, in 2014, with the lowest teacher to student ratio in Canada. Please tell us how this is good for our kids, particularly the IEP students!”

===================================

This statement says absolutely nothing. Just because BC has the lowest ratio doesn’t mean they have it bad. Maybe every other Province is bloated beyond belief and the extra teachers do nothing to actually contribute to the learning environment.

What are the actual numbers? What is an ideal ratio? Despite the “ranking” is BC in line with what is considered to be an acceptable ratio?

Oh Peeps, you are such a wonder!!

Perhaps you can provide all of us with some statistics regarding how well our students perform compared to the rest of Canada. My understanding is that our students do fairly well on a nationwide comparison.

Also, as Gus pointed out on a previous story, class size seems to have little to do with educational outcomes!

I was pointing out that each government seems to do what it wants and we always get stuck with the bill. How can someone condemn the actions of the current government without also condemning the actions of the previous government?

But alas Peeps, you say and hear only what you want to say and hear. You condemn, criticize, vilify and denigrate anybody who has an opinion that differs from yours. Were you a bully in school as well. Oh wait, according to you, your just a pimply faced college student living in your mother’s basement. So, you’re still in school and my question should be, are you still a bully in school as well??

Mount Sinabung in Indonesia has been rumbling and erupting for months! I can’t believe that you are still here posting on this site. I would have thought that you would have flown to Indonesia months ago (on a carbon fuel burning jet, no less) to join the many others who surely must be protesting at the foot of the volcano over it’s massive spewing of green house gases and it’s resulting massive contributions to global warming! Go picket a volcano, for crying out loud!!

If my comments seem ridiculous, one must keep in mind that I am posting them for your benefit!! Goodness gracious, give a man a computer and access to the internet and suddenly he becomes a know it all!!

It’s an opinion page! You have yours, I have mine and others have theirs. We are all entitled to our own opinions! Deal with it!!

Questions, questions NMG; while we are at it, what about class composition? Are there more IEP students in BC classrooms compared to other provinces?

Developmentally delayed students with Individual Education Plans (IEPs)require more resources and time investment.

What about kids going to school hungry? Students do not learn well on empty stomachs… remember we have the highest child poverty rate in Canada, so are more of our kids going to school hungry?

@ Hart Gal; someone has to cut through the political BS being spewed all over the place by the Lieberals! Just because you, and some others, buy into their crap doesn’t mean I have to. Some of us can think and stand on our own!

I am getting old, but still remember high school. 50 kids with a good teacher learn far more than 10 with a lousy teacher.

What I am learning from these comments is….more British Columbians have children without a clue how they are going to feed and raise them than the rest of the country. So, is the average British Columbian really that much dumber than the national average ? Apparently so. ( pun intended ).

The liberal government lost their fight and thank god. They are driving this province into the sewer. The teachers deserve a big thank you. You have stepped up and faced the biggest school yard bully I have ever seen. This election in the fall we need to get some strong political candidates to run for school trustees and apply pressure to our dictatorship government

Keep up the fight teachers and win this appeal
The public is behind you

cougs78 has hit the nail on the head! It is time to go to a results based compensation system for teachers in order to cull some of the duds. Where else but a public sector union are raises are based not on job performance but on how long they have held the job.

People#1 Have you ever posted a link to another site that contains ” someone else’s thoughts and words” in order to further your argument? Thought so. Reply to Hart Guy was one more way to weasel out of responding to a credible opposing view but not a surprise as it fits your pattern of behavior to a tee.

there has been a complete reversal in allowable punishment to a student nowadays kids know what they can get away with and if the teacher tries talking some sense into them they just flip em the middle finger real classy. basically when I was in school marshal law was prevalent if the teacher told you to be quiet you listened then when you got home you got it again from your parents. just try instructing a classroom of hormone induced grade niners and you will soon have your eyes opened to the real world now just add a substitute and its classroom mayhem with no support in some schools from upper management good luck teachers earn every cent they are paid and then some don’t ever doubt it

LOL… ice. What happened ? Did your other personalities use up your quota of capital letters ?

Peeps, someone has to cut through the political BS being spewed all over the place by the Lieberals! Really?? Since when did the Liberals have a lock on political BS?

As a pimply faced college student still living in his mother’s basement, you are obviously too young to remember the former NDP Government and the political BC they spewed all over the place!

It was that NDP Government that introduced legislation intended to reward their friends in the BCTF! That legislation undoubtedly came at a huge cost to the taxpayer!

Now we have a Liberal Government that rightly or wrongly introduced legislation to reverse the NDP’s gift to the BCTF! And as with the NDP legislation, you and I get stuck with the bill!

As a pimply faced college student still living in your mother’s basement, you are obviously far too young to have realized that this kind of thing goes on all the time. A newly elected government always seems hellbent on reversing the previous governments policies! And in every case, we the taxpayers end up footing the bill. After you graduate from college and get a job and then start contributing to the tax base, you might start to realize that this is how things unfortunately work!!

Until then and until such time as you grow up, perhaps your efforts would be better spent picketing the Indonesian volcano that is still spewing global warming greenhouse gases into our environment!

If it warms your heart, I can see you already, standing at the base of the volcano, picket sign proudly held high, condemning the volcano and demanding that it stop contributing to global warming! Go Peeps Go!!

Hot lava is good for the complexion.

*Sigh… you have no clue do you Hart Gal?

Here, read up on Labour Rights, Constitutional Law and International Law, none of which the NDP gave to the BCTF!

http://rabble.ca/news/2012/03/bill-22-violates-legal-rights-workers-and-rule-law

Peeps, will David Suzuki and Neil Young be joining you in your anti-volcano crusade?? Just think, the three of you on the cover of Macleans magazine together, protesting on the edge of the volcano!! Brings a tear to my eye!

Go Peeps Go!!

People#1 Did you write what is on the link that you posted or are you merely repeating “someone else’s thoughts”in a ” parrot like fashion” So much for the statement that you think for yourself.

Hart Guy might have to amend his nickname for you to “Peeps the Parrot”

ewitt, perhaps “Double P” for short??

And that, folks, is how you drive home a point, while turning two regular posters, of average intelligence, into common run-of-the-mill trolls!

My work here is done. :-)

Exactly the response one would expect from someone of limited intelligence, before he/she/? retreats to the abode under the bridge-on the short bus.

Guess that means I cannot expect an answer for you accusing someone of being a parrot while doing exactly the same thing–on the very same thread.

haha ewitt, looks like we have hurt Peeps feelings!

I’m intelligent enough to recognize that I don’t have all of the answers and I’m not any smarter than the next guy. Peeps on the other hand, has convinced himself/herself(?) that he/she(?) is smarter than the rest of us. As a result, Peeps has a hard time accepting the realities of his/her own intelligence!

As is the norm for Peeps, when the going gets tough, Peeps gets outta here! On numerous occasions and quite consistently Peeps fails to address or answer well thought out, reasonable and rational questions or concerns, especially when they go against Peeps school of thought!

Sometimes I like to crank Peeps up, just so that his/her true colours can shine through for all to see. It usually doesn’t take much, but that’s just my own opinion, and this is an opinion page, isn’t it??

Perhaps Peeps has left us to start planning for the long trip to Indonesia to protest the greenhouse gas emitting volcano? Gee, I should have put that thought in his/her head a long time ago!!

Good night Peeps (I know that you are watching, haha)!

I suggest that a few people, if not all, who post on this topic need to take a deep breath and independently areas the Canadian Constitution Act, 1982m especially clauses 1 and 2
————————————–
“Fundamental Freedoms are provided under clause 2 and are as follows:

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association.”
————————————–
It is that last one which has been used to determine that when an association negotiates with an employer, that the negotiation scope cannot be limited.

In my opinion, the very first statement in the Act addresses that with these words:
1.The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject ONLY TO SUCH REASONABLE LIMITS PRESCRIBED BY LAW AS CAN BE DEMONSTRABLY JUSTIFIED in a free and democratic society.
————————————————————————
To me this says that reasonable limits can be prescribed by law if it can be justified.
Some examples of that would be the freedom to utter hate speech. The freedom to strike under any circumstance …… from which we get the notion of essential services. Are fire, hospitals, snow clearing, police, etc. essential services? How about teaching?
Is teaching an essential service? Of course not. If teaching is looked at as a babysitting service, it certainly is not essential. Parents can stay at home or hire babysitters during a strike.

However, if teaching were actually to be looked at as a development service, there are some critical restrictions which should be addressed – total length of strike such as 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, strikes prior to important year end evaluations, etc.

So, can teaching be considered an essential service? That can certainly be negotiated, but it can also be imposed by legislation according to the Charter’s clause 1. The final decision maker of whether such an imposition meets the Charters intent of demonstrated justification would be the Supreme Court of Canada.

It appears that the question has not come before that court, but that it now may do so.

That first sentence should have said “independently read” … :-(

cougs78 wrote: “I am getting old, but still remember high school. 50 kids with a good teacher learn far more than 10 with a lousy teacher.”

ewitt then wrote: “It is time to go to a results based compensation system for teachers …. “

I agree with both, although I can remember 40 not 50.

Teachers negotiate for teaching workloads which are based on what the average teacher can be expected to accomplish.

There are a couple of interesting aspects to that:

1. workload seems to be reduced to number of students taught in a “class” as well as the length of day and the number of teaching days a year – contact hours.

2. Quality of teaching is not addressed because teachers are considered to be “professionals” who will do everything in their power to provide the best service they possibly can. To me, that is not good enough.

3. Interestingly, the new teacher gets the lowest pay scale and likely does not get any reprieve on the workload by gradually moving up to larger class sizes or more contact hours as they gain experience and develop a repertoire of teaching tools which will streamline some of the workload with experience.

I think the “system” needs a good evaluation of how well it is actually doing and whether there can be improvements to give teachers the ability to become more effective and efficient.

Interesting Gus!

Can teaching be considered an essential service? I suppose that depends on which side of the fence you happen to be on. The Liberals under Gordon Campbell passed legislation in August 2001 that declared education as an essential service, and thus made it illegal for teachers to go on strike.

Teachers want the right to strike. So, are they an essential service without the right to strike, or should they be declared a non-essential service and be given the right to strike?

Different attitudes arise at different times. Teachers and the BCTF believe that they should have the right to strike, but during contract negotiations, they expend a great deal of time, effort, energy and money trying to convince us that they are indeed essential and as such are worthy of whatever contract demands they put forward! But, how can the BCTF consider it’s members services as essential when considering wage and benefits demands, yet consider the services as non-essential and thus worthy of the right to strike? How is it possible to sit on both sides of the fence?

Essential or not? Retired senior citizens without school age children might consider teachers as non-essential. To the parents of an honour student who is depending on final exam scores to secure a scholarship or university admission, perhaps the service is essential. For the rest of us, perhaps we waffle on a daily basis as to whether or not teachers should be declared an essential service and should or should not have the right to strike.

We each have our own opinions on this issue. Perhaps as you suggest, this matter is best left to the Supreme Court. Unfortunately in this case as in most others, the words of Abraham Lincoln ring true:

“You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”

I had good teachers in school and I had crappy ones. The BCTF is there to protect the crappy ones.

Ok guys we all think that we can do other peoples jobs easier than they can, we can criticize them put them down for being whiners and over paid BUT for one they only get paid 10 months of the year which I can’t live off of that and are only allowed to go on vacation when they are on breaks which is very annoying to there partners and have to do school work in the evenings at home to get caught up from that day. Many of you probably think they only work from 830 till 230 but you are died wrong. And lastly who else can try to teach 23 kids from kinder garden to grade 7 and mind you not all of them are on their best behaviour because I can’t and I know that for a fact but some on here think it is so easy, well I think your job is easy to, just saying, and JB is right there are some good teachers and bad teachers, so just what are you in your work place?