One can be sure they will try to put this through on a reverse petition process after they are elected to a four year term. Throw democracy out the window when the special interest ‘administrators’ have their mind set on something.

If this is such a priority of city council, then it should be handled as a referendum question at election time.

Its likely to be well over $50-60 million when all is said and done. More debt than any other city in BC outside of PG and Vancouver, and for a single want, not even a need.

“The request for a Performing Arts Centre has been on the books for the City since 1991.”

Much longer than that.

The original request goes back to at least the time when the “little theatre” (the playhouse) was built in the early 1960s. There was one faction that did not want that theatre to be built because they wanted an 1,100 seat theatre. I believe that is what caused to school district to include a theatre with PGSS. Sadly it was built to less than acceptable standards right from the start.

The second go at it was when the City commissioned a national architectural competition for the cultural centre to the east of the Inn of the North which was to be phased with the library building the first building to be commissioned to the winner of the competition. The other facilities included a new Civic Centre, an art gallery, a theatre of some 1,000 seats, commercial spaces for retail and restaurants, etc. to promote activity in the precinct, and enough parking to service all the buildings.

The only parts missing from that original intent of 1979/80 are the theatre, the commercial spaces as well as sufficient parking to serve all those buildings.

I really do not understand why these facts cannot presented in a proper context rather than losing history along the way.

No, we can’t afford this, and add the cost of the 2015 games, the new cop shop, the repairs to roads and sewers, the ridiculous increases to our utility bills, the rain tax .. Where does the gouging stop.

This is a luxury we can’t afford and the majority of us don’t want, how about do something strange and listen to the people “……..

“Its likely to be well over $50-60 million when all is said and done”

Yes, if “right sizing” is not going to cut the thing into shreds.

BUT ….. you forget to mention that we are not going alone on this one like the police station. We will be able to get money from the feds and the province. That is still how these projects are done, no matter what anyone says.

The thing was on our capital project list for about a decade at $11million and got taken off. I asked Councillors why and they did not tell me. I do not know whether they were trying to hide something or whether they were not paying attention to what they were doing.

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“More debt than any other city in BC outside of PG and Vancouver”

People never take the asset value of the Terasen deal into consideration when determining debt. Strange fly by night accounting practices …..

No one is building the damned thing yet. I do not know why people cannot understand that major projects like this, with potential funding from province and feds as well as Enbridge :-) need to be ready to go when the opportunity presents itself.

I would never support this project if the City had to go on its own. But one has to be ready to go, including having an identified piece of property in City ownership the same as UNBC had for decades. No one built UNBC when the property was wet aside. No one complained about the cost of the road leading to it because people in those days understood it was set aside for the future.

Somewhere along the way we lost the ability to think logically. Perhaps those who could not never made it to public scrutiny without the internet. ;-)

“Where does the gouging stop.”

The gouging will stop when we pay similar rates as other cities. We have been getting off too easy. We have been living in fantasy land.

We have not grown in population for two decades. The last census showed a slight increase, but we have not caught up to where we were. It also showed that the “ring” around the city has been increasing in population, but the population in the city limits has virtually no growth. A normal North American phenomenon, other than some unique cities like Vancouver who have had some great planners that chose some of the right policies.

Someone has to support the sprawl created by new box stores, subdivision that are not needed, the procrastination of maintaining City infrastructure and the proliferation of jobs as well as too many useless studies funded by City Hall.

“it could be the end of June before there is a revised report”

I am for building the building if we get shared funding. We need to get it right this time around. Letting it out to a society was the wrong move in hindsight. The City was never really seriously interested, in my opinion.

End of June? … take your time. Try to gather some of the people around you that actually know something about the technical side because the information still exists.

Otherwise, they may as well start over again for the 3rd, 4th or so time in as many decades.

Remember, this is the city where history gets lost after 3 months or less …..

This one again …stop wasting good tax payers money with this ….city administrators, etc. have to spend more time viewing and talking about a loosing proposition ….timing isn’t right for this, another situation where the city will not be able to support this …. tax payers will get smack again.

good gosh, we just finish writing out the cheque with the RCMP station … look at our dam utility invoice last few weeks ….everyone is up and arms …what a jump…..

City claims, CKPG news yesterday, that the city infrastruture , above and below ground, as it is now, is in dire need of repair and upgrade and they have no money for to do it…so my question is where is the money for a PAC hiding? use it to fix the infrastructure FIRST, then lets talk PAC.
I will be a titch miffed if taxes go up for a PAC and I can’t get my water, sewer or snow remooval services.

Put the thing to a referendum in Nov, what’s the problem let the taxpayer decide. Never know maybe more people will get off their ass and vote rather than just whimper about the out come.

Like the airport Gus, we have to be ready to go? Why not put ” Do you want a PAC?” On next falls ballot? Enbridge? Really? If that project goes through isn’t the money that BC is going to get not PG supposed to go to education and healthcare? The city can’t even afford to maintain what they have now. Masich place stadium is in dire need of repair and no one knows where the money is going to come from to fix that.

Gus I pay more taxes than my dad does in Delta I think PG has more than caught up. The only ones living on fantasy island are city council and PAC supporters.

Blame the city for the urban sprawl. People are living outside the city limits for a reason Gus! Do you think it might be the taxes?

We haven’t grown in two decades is exactly the reason why we should not build a PAC!

Apparently first of all we have to replace all our totally worn out snow clearing equipment at once and at the same time at a cost of 6 million dollars plus another half a million for training.

How are we going to make it to the Winter Games venues and the PAC if we can’t get out of our driveways and all the buses are stuck?

;-)

We don’t need or want this stupid PO center. Better roads and sewers, thank you!

The City and the PAC Society have been trying for this facility for a number of years. (20)

There is more to what is taking place than meets the eye,.

Firstly they are counting on us being asleep at the switch, and are very quietly putting things into place so that they can get the funding.

I intend to say more on this subject at a later date, however suffice to say that they are being less than honest and upfront about what is going on,.

Another point that has to be considered is that the original group who wanted this facility 20 years ago, is no longer the ones who should be proposing it. Why?? Because a number of them have moved on to that great PAC in the sky, the others have aged from the late 50’s and 60’s into the late 70’s and 80’s and no longer represent the wants and needs of this City.

The younger generation that have moved in to fill the void, have a much less interest in a PAC than those people had 20 years ago. The bus has left the station for a PAC, it is now just a dream of yesteryear.

However, this project is being kept alive, by those same people, and some vested interest groups in the City who stand to make some money in construction, engineering, architecture, etc; along with the City who will be able to spend millions of dollars.

Keep your eye on this file going forward.

Gus, you probably don’t realize this but when the city gets funding from the provincial and or federal government it our tax dollars.

Can’t we get an IMAX theater first??

What would be the yearly cost to run the thing? All expenses included? The will be a tax burden for ever if it goes through.

It needs a referendum, just not a group of snobs thinking we need it. The other venues aren’t used enough to warrant this beast of debt. Prince George hasn’t grown in 20 years, so no need. To build something that will be empty all the time.

Bring it on and make it something worthy of the wealth that flows from this region to the south and east. They (the south and east) owe it to us big time.

BTW, two things that would improve this already-great news site:

1) Abandon the anti-City reflex that started with the election of the current Mayor. Some of the things they do are not all bad.
2) Encourage a new slate of commentators.

Democracy dictates a referendum on this money pit!

This is just plain dumb seeing the city cannot support the infrastructure already in place.

How about screening candidates this November and elect the sane ones against the PAC. And get rid of IPG if they can’t show a substantial (money in hand to give back to the city) re: return on investment. Put that money towards tangibles like roads and sewers rather than entertainment venues. Advertise our cheap housing down south. Get our Chamber of Commerce to get off their collective butts and sell our city (figuratively) to the outside world. Liquidate our ‘burg’s inventory of vacant land over the next few years. Empty land doesn’t pay taxes.

I agree steph99 lets have this as a referendum on eth next vote…. let the people say… not that I have a lot of confidence they will listen to us….

The City and the PAC society will avoid a referendum, and an Alternative Approval Process on a Performing Arts Centre, like the plague. Why?? Because they stand to lose if they take the risk.

So what will they do. They will schmooze with the Mayor and Councilors, City administration, etc, with a view of coming up with the funds from other sources.

As stated above the other sources will still be tax dollars, however the taxpayers will not be able to express their opinion on this venture.

The Performing Art Centre, needs to be an election issue this year, along with City spending, road repair, and snow removal, and the Storm Water Utility tax. We also need an in depth analysis of City spending over the past 10 years. A good analysis would reveal that there has been considerable money wasted.

“The younger generation that have moved in to fill the void, have a much less interest in a PAC than those people had 20 years ago”

Have to agree on this comment.

How many of the pro people have asked their kids or grand-kids?

I asked my son and his friends around the time it was in the media last and out of 11 (who are voting age) said no way…they also chorused in by saying “Maybe these people that want the PAC should look themselves in the mirror.” “It is a want not a need.” ” Thought these old guys were trying to tell us not to go in debt, but they try pull this “Chit”? “Put the money in fixing what we got”

The rest of the comments I can’t print.
To tell you the truth I agree with them. These are the same people that likely slam the younger generations for being the “needy” generation. Hmmm wonder where some of it came from. “look in the mirror”.

My opinion is that, the Performing Arts Center should be built. What I don’t like is what is being proposed to be built.

The performing Arts center has to be built downtown.

One main Theatre, 800 seat. One smaller theatre 350 seat. All for $30 million dollars plus land and off site development costs.

We can not expect the society to be able to foot the bill to build it, But they have to have a realistic business plan which can maintain 100% coverage of operating costs. They will need a commitment from a major sponsor like Enbridge who is willing to cough up 250,000 shares, and the dividends from these shares help in the operating costs of the PAC. Ownership of the shares is in trust between PAC and Enbridge philanthropy corp.

“Gus, you probably don’t realize this but when the city gets funding from the provincial and or federal government it our tax dollars.”

PVal, you probably do not realize this, but all the communities in BC that have infrastructure and facilities that are funded by the community as well as the province and the feds is our tax money from people in PG.

Not only that, but the same goes for projects in places like Calgary, Toronto, Charlottetown, even goode olde Montreal where the federal portion is paid for by out tax dollars.

So we are paying for most of their rapid transit systems, their museums, their bridges, their universities, their highways that snake through their cities their theatres, their stadiums and on and on it goes ……

They should be thanking us every day of their lives that the hinterlands of their province and their country help to pay for those facilities and especially because we are so complacent about it that we hardly ever ask for such infrastructure and facilities in return.

The cost of running and maintenance of the proposed performing arts centre would be in the area of $500,000.00 per year. There is no way in hell that they could ever generate enough revenue to off set these costs.

Furthermore we do not have enough people in the greater Prince George area, to support this kind of facility. Nanaimo, and Kelowna can get away with it to some degree, because of their location, however in the frozen Northern Interior in the middle of winter, we would be hard pressed to have people drive in from MacKenzie, McBride, Vanderhoof, Burns Lake, etc; to attend the **Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy**

If they come to town at all during the Winter months, most of them shop, and then attend the Casino, which I might add also has entertainment.

The need for a performing arts centre has to be revisited with a view of either getting rid of the idea all together, or consolidating the idea with perhaps the Farmers Market, Theatre Northwest, Judy Russell, and other dance studios, and some commercial shops, restaurants, etc, so that it can generate some revenue.

Having a group of society members, sitting in plush seats, with cheap tickets subsidized by taxpayers, gazing at some less than stellar performance, does not get the job done.

The maintenance and operating cost of the Port Theatre in Nanaimo comes in around $500,000.00 per year. You can rest assured that our costs will be at least the same.

Gus, so you do have a very basic grasp of how the taxation system works, I am guessing you just looked it up. Learning is a good thing..keep it up

About the PAC

1. We can’t afford it
2. We don’t need it
3. Referendum needed
4. Are debt can’t handle it
5. Our mayor and council are ignorant to what the masses want or don’t want
6. The way our taxes and fees are increasing we will be losing population not gaining, so no one to attend these fluffy events
7. We can’t afford it

Last time I attended a performance at a local venue it was at Vanier Hall! It was comfortable, enjoyable and a great experience over all! Believe it or not but it offered (so I have been told) seating for 800 enthusiasts – just as many as the proposed Mega PAC would have!

http://www.pgperformingarts.ca/downloads.html

According to the PAC website it will cost closer to $650,000 yearly to run.

There are a few that have been pushing for the PAC for close to 20 years as mentioned. The last information $ wise they gave to the city is from 2008.

What I resent is the city – our tax’s paying to look into this again and again….

Fix what we need – infrastructure.

This project will cost us close to what we pay to subsidize the private hockey team to use the CN Centre.

I pray that someone legit runs for Mayor. I am tired of all this crap that we cannot afford being put through without a referendum. WE DO NOT NEED THIS!!!!

So Gus you are happy to just keep adding to our tax burden when in fact the city just announced they cannot afford the current infrastructure costs? Would the annual operating cost be divvied up between other taxpayer funded government agencies?

Disclaimer I am a season ticket holder at TNW and enjoy it very much a great part do to the seating arrangement and smaller venue. It is partly supported by the taxpayer but we do not need added taxpayer strain with a PAC.

Would the PAC seat 800 a night for a two or three week theater run? Not likely and not the younger crowd, they are conspicuous by their absence at TNW.

“…they are conspicuous by their absence at TNW.”

Another great clue for the clueless who choose to ignore the obvious as it isn’t their money which they are about to spend.

Since 1991 how much money has the PAC society raised (other than tax dollars)to pay for this ?
just an example the Spruce Kings have run the house lottery for as long as I can remember and have raised a lot of money to keep themselves going.
How much has the PAC raised in 23 years?

Tell them to hit the bricks and keep going!

Saywho, you took the words right out of my mouth. What has the PAC done to generate some monies over this period of time?

“Gus, you probably don’t realize this but when the city gets funding from the provincial and or federal government it our tax dollars”

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Agree completely! I vote no for a PAC in PG. I’d much rather have your tax dollars invested in Ottawa to make my city more enjoyable, LOL ;)

I was bored this afternoon, snowing and all that so I went to PAC website. Pac commissioned a report from web Management Services. Inc. which they provided in February 2008. I downloaded “needs assessment report” Very interesting reading. However some of data collected goes back to the era of the nineties and early 2000 and to 2005. The report was very thourough. A lot took me back to memory lane. I have been here since 1968. The report also gave some laughs. What is stated in the report, City Hall is still talking about and so on, and some things I didn’t even know about. However this report for today is very outdated, but still a good read.

And no I am not for the pac.

Thank gawd I will probably be moved out of this town and area before this ever sees a shovel to the ground, then I will only get nailed at the federal level.

It Sounds like the citizens want it put to a referendum. When spending this kind of money I think it should.

With the four seasons pool in bad shape maybe something along those lines. One with slides for the kids would be nice

Nothing against local productions but I don’t think that a PAC will fill the seats without big name shows traveling up from Vancouver for a couple week run and the cost of that would be outrageous. No one is going to pay $100 to go see a show IMO.

I have a very mixed group of friends and in the past 7 years, not once have I heard any one of my friends say they wish that there was a new PAC so they could go to a show.

So …kin 4 would have been half the price…but we couldn’t afford that…remember? But we should consider a place for the performing arts? Lol