New Society Chair Sees PAC As Growth Stimulant
Prince George, B.C. – Prince George city council will receive a report from City Manager Beth James tomorrow night detailing the many unanswered questions and issues surrounding a Performing Arts Centre in our community.
Many aspects of the proposal have changed since the Performing Arts Society presented its last report in 2012, aspects which include cost, site options, demand for such a facility. The previous chair and public face of the PAC Society, Ken Kilcullen, packed his bags and headed out of town recently so we contacted the new chair, Kirk Gable, to discuss his thoughts on this highly contentious issue.
Gable says the only criteria which has been discussed regarding location is that it be located downtown. “We would like to see it in the downtown area for a whole variety of reasons, primarily because it’s an economic driver it’s going to generate more activity downtown. As far as specific locations go he says “in that sense we’ve left that to the city. I think originally there was five or six sites that were mentioned. Where the old PG Hotel was one of them, or the site across the street from the Keg where the old Norgate Auto Body is. There were several others that were looked at but we basically said we don’t have a preference, that’s the city’s choice and their decision because one of the ways that they can help to finance this is by the city providing the land. They’ve got lots of it downtown so that would be a way for them to put an important community asset onto a piece of city land without any cash having to be expended.”
We asked Gable if it would be preferable to build a PAC in a particular part of town amongst other buildings where each would compliment the others. He says “I can think of several sites where it would work. You know one of the things we have often talked about, and not just around a performing arts centre but in the Downtown Business Improvement Association which I’ve been involved with for several years, is the whole idea that all of the civic activity needs to go on in a civic plaza. In one sense that might seem to be a good idea, but in another way I think you need to think of it in terms of kind of circling the wagons, where all of the same kind of activities go on in one location. I think in terms of providing opportunities for retail activity and other types of activity those kinds of civic structures need to be thought about carefully in terms of how they’re going to impact the neighbourhood, so to speak. In other words they could be used to help revitalize an area that might not otherwise work.”
The James report to council says the projected cost of such a facility needs to be updated from the 2010 figure of $42.5 million. Gable says there is no doubt the passage of time has increased the cost. “The best example I can think of was Nanaimo which built the Port Theatre in 1998 or ’99. The cost was $15 million at that time. The point being made is that the longer we wait the more expensive it’s going to get. Certainly it would have been a lot cheaper if we’d of started it in the 1990s when this was a topic for discussion.” Gable says he does not know what the cost might be in today’s terms. “Obviously one of the things that the City administration is doing now is that they’re trying to re-cost that (the $42.5 million figure) and trying to verify what current costs would be. And of course once you do that the temptation is to see if you can downsize it.”
Asked whether the PAC Society board would oppose trimming the project Gable says “if somebody could come up with a better plan, if somebody had a better idea of how you provide those kinds of venues and opportunities for entertainment, if you could do it for less, well sure why not? I think that what the consultants that we hired suggested is a reasonable idea, which is an 800-seat main theatre and a 250-seat smaller theatre, and a multi-purpose room that can be used for a whole variety of community interests.” He says those three rooms combined with a major public lobby and all of the backstage production areas provide for a great facility.
Gable weighs the proposed centre against Vanier Hall. “That’s usually the first words out of peoples’ mouths that don’t want to spend any money…what’s wrong with Vanier Hall? Vanier Hall is a decent room. The theatre itself isn’t bad, it’s about 750 seats. However, it was designed and built as a high school auditorium in 1967 and at the time they didn’t feel it was necessary to put in all those back-of-stage facilities. So now you’ve got a situation where, first of all, it’s probably booked 220 days a year by School District 57 so it’s generally not available to the community. But secondly you’ve got the situation where a symphony or orchestra is playing and basketballs are bouncing off the wall on the other side of the hallway. I mean that’s great, kids need to play sports we all understand that. But it was never designed or built as a performing arts centre, it's a high school auditorium.”
What are the projected operating costs of a Performing Arts Centre? “The report that we presented to council in 2012 is fairly accurate. Based on what we see as the regional need and the kinds of activities and capacities that we expect to be able to fill seats with, the operating subsidy would be about $300 thousand per year. That would be the net deficit. We were looking at about a million dollars a year to operate it, and it would generate about $700 thousand a year from activities” so the shortfall, at least in the first year, would be $300 thousand.
We asked Gable whether the performing arts centre question should be put to referendum. “Well, I guess I would leave that to the politicians in terms of how they want to look at financing it. Specifically, when we talk about $42 million, roughly a quarter of that would be contributed from City of Prince George funds. The federal and provincial governments as well as private partners would provide the other three-quarters. Does that warrant a referendum, I don’t know. At what point do referendums assist in the process? I’m not an expert on civic financing but I’d rather leave that discussion, that decision to council.”
Reminded that city, provincial and federal funds all come from the taxpayer, so shouldn’t the taxpayer have a say, Gable says “I don’t see why not, all I’m saying is that I wouldn’t want to make that suggestion, I think council needs to make that decision in terms of how they’re going to proceed. The other thing I would say is sure we are taxpayers, we all send lots of money to the federal and provincial governments every year, and I think that it’s important to remember that this region could use an amenity like this if we want to grow our population. And maybe those that are opposed to spending money don’t see population growth as an important goal. I do. I’m a businessman in the city and I think that is a major issue for this community. If this community really wants to grow we’re going to have to think about what kinds of amenities are going to attract people to come and want to live here.”
On the question of Prince George taxpayers having much more crucial, basic matters such as crumbling infrastructure which need to be dealt with first, Gable says “I don’t disagree. All of those issues are important and that’s why we elect city councils to make decisions, and they get to make the tough decisions on that. I think it was interesting when federal minister Jason Kenney was in town a couple of weeks ago and I happened to have an opportunity to present the Performing Arts Centre proposal to him, and the first words out of his mouth were, what, a community this size doesn’t have a performing arts centre? You know you can take that for whatever you want. Jason’s a politician and maybe he’s looking at the future of this riding under a number of (unintelligible) but I think there’s lots of people that would like to see Prince George grow in a number of different ways. Certainly the arts and culture are an area that has been neglected in the past and I think there’s lots of people in this community that would like to see those kinds of amenities.”
“Sometimes there’s lots of noise made about local issues, we should focus all our energy on potholes. Well okay, let’s have someone focus on that but in the meantime there are other issues that our citizens are concerned about. And I think from our society’s perspective, if somebody has a better idea and if there’s another way that we can do these kinds of activities and attract more of the kinds of arts and culture and shows to the community, well let’s talk about it. I’m not opposed to those ideas.”
Comments
“Reminded that city, provincial and federal funds all come from the taxpayer so shouldnât the taxpayer have a say”
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Lamest argument ever. So what are you saying, that the project should go to a provincial and national referendum? Face the facts, taxpayers from outside of PG would be paying so much more of the provincial and federal portion that it’s not even worth bickering about, let alone raising it as a serious point of discussion.
PG’s population is 75,000 people in a country with about 35,000,000. That translates into about 0.2 of 1% of the federal population and about 1.6% of the provincial population.
Let’s say it would cost $50M and that the Feds and Province would come up with 25% each, the city 25% and donations 25%. Let’s also assume that the city could donate land to cover their part. PG’s “share” of the federal funding would be about $25,000 and their “share” of the provincial funding would be about $200,000. I say “share”, because it would actually be less. This is because a higher proportion of taxes received by governments would come from larger urban centres where higher rate paying taxpayers live, both personal and corporate. PG wouldn’t be one of those. Think Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, etc.
So, the total “cash” contribution by city of PG taxpayers for a $50M facility would be about $225,000 or 0.45% of the total cost.
You want to have a referendum for that????? You should be jumping up and down with joy that we live in a country where cities like PG can benefit SIGNIFICANTLY from the shared wealth of the entire country. Sometimes I can do nothing but shake my head.
“I think it was interesting when federal minister Jason Kenney was in town a couple of weeks ago and I happened to have an opportunity to present the Performing Arts Centre proposal to him, and the first words out of his mouth were, what, a community this size doesnât have a performing arts centre?”
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LOL. Unless I’m reading it wrong, you mean the ex-president and CEO of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation apparently sees value in having publicly funded facilities like these?
That’s saying something!
We want a referendum on the 500,000 + dollar a year operating cost NMG or are the people of Canada going to kick in for that too? You sound like a Best Buy commercial or a shady vacuum cleaner salesman that says surely you can afford .25 cents a day! Well we can’t! We can’t even afford to maintain what we have! I can do nothing but shake my head too NMG!
“I think thereâs lots of people that would like to see Prince George grow in a number of different ways”
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I don’t think a PAC should be sold as a single development that will grow the city.
I think it needs to be seen for what it is, a piece of an overall strategy which can help promote growth. This would include having the other civic facilities that PG can offer, revitalization of the downtown core, beautification of the city, improved infrastructure investments, attempts to diversify the economy, etc.
You get to a point where if you want the city to grow to the “next level”, you have to move beyond the small town, homogeneous mentality. You have to start investing in and supporting developments that you may not like, but that are needed in order to support and attract a larger diverse population. Large cities aren’t selfish. They cater to people with different attitudes, interests and desires. There are allot of folks in PG that don’t yet understand that.
“We want a referendum on the 500,000 + dollar a year operating cost NMG or are the people of Canada going to kick in for that too?”
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Let’s be honest, this has nothing to do with annual operating subsidies, it’s about the fact that people in PG, for the most part, are uncomfortable supporting art or anything related to art. The same arguments occurred with the Art Gallery.
Or am I wrong and people are going to start demanding referendums to review the approve the operating budgets of CN Centre, the Kin Centres, the Aquatic Centre, Masich Place Stadium, Fort George Park . . .
Let me guess, NMG is all for PAC. That makes one of us. Utilize what we have effectively, get council under financial control and then maybe more would agree. Right now I think PAC would be a huge waste of money. There are higher priorities.
Your trying to play head games here NMG. The fact of the matter is the Art Gallery is for all intents and purpose a **flop**. Most people in Prince George have never been there and have little or no interest in it.
Its not a question of being uncomfortable, its a total lack of interest.
This is about a hell of a lot more Prince George money than the operating budget.
We will see what MS James comes up with to-night, however you can rest assured that we are being set up for a huge **con** job.
Put it to a referedum and let the voters decide not this city council.
Good argument there that I hadn’t thought of. I just checked and the Porsche 911 has gotten more expensive every year too. A friend of mine bought one back in ’98 and it was far less than the 2014 model. I better go buy one right away. Sorry honey, I know we need a new roof on the house, but can you imagine what that car will cost if we wait?
*sarcasm off*
I agree with woodwoman, and none of this alternate approval process that they use to try push things down our throats.
I will support a PAC only if it is built outside of the T-bowl. I suggest the North Hart somewhere off Chief Lake road. (The T-bowl odor rarely extends that far in concentrations that would be immediately detrimental to one’s health.)
I say no, maybe we should make our first interest payment on the police station and the other art centre.
I think that it is fair to say that the City will not go to a referendum on this issue because they could lose. In addition they will not borrow any money from the Municipal Lending Authority, because they would need the approval of tax payers, and it would go to the Alternative Approval Process. Again they could lose.
So how will they move funding for the project forward.
1. They have passed a bylaw recently that allows them to transfer money from the sale of land on Highway 16 West to a Capital Expenditure Reserve.
2. The plan (not so secret) is to sell the Playhouse Theatre and this money would be transferred to the Capital Reserve.
3. The City is still working in the back ground to try and sell Pine Valley Golf Course, and if they were to be successful then money from the sale of this land could also be transferred to the Capital Reserve.
4. In 2015 the Federal Government extended the Gas Tax Fund for another 10 years. The City of Prince George receives approx. $2.97 Million per year from this fund.
5. Its interesting to note that the criteria for this fund has been amended and now allows this money to be spent on recreation, CULTURE, tourism and sport.
6. This means that over the next 10 years the City will receive approx. $30 Million dollars in Gas Tax Money. Furthermore they can borrow against future payments of this money, so in effect they have the borrowing portion of the PAC covered off if need be.
7. Money from other land sales, and of course donating land for the project are also part of the funding scheme.
So, lets not kid ourselves. There is much more taking place on this file than we think, and if we go to sleep we will once again be bamboozled by City Hall.
I for one do not believe that we need to ostracize the members of Pine Valley, ie; Seniors, Juniors, those with mobility issues, etc; to get funds, to finance a Performing Arts Centre, that will for all intents and purposes cater in a very small segment of people in Prince George.
I strongly recommend that the News Media check into this file with a view to determine exactly where the funding will come from, and who will be impacted.
” it’s about the fact that people in PG, for the most part, are uncomfortable supporting art or anything related to art.”
Whatever NMG! A lot or art comes to town and people support it. If they don’t come to town and people want to see their art the people go to them. To say that just because we don’t support your PAC that we don’t support the arts shows just how out of touch you really are.
As far as revitalization goes take a walk downtown on George in front of the Ramada and take a look at the plaque on the downtown revitalization mission statement. I think it’s dated 1985 and how is that mission going? PG’s population growth is 0% and a PAC isn’t going to change it.
We can’t afford it!
Let me see NMG, you live in Ottawa, lived in Prince George at one point in your life. Of course, that gives you the right to tell the people of Prince George they need to spend money on a PAC.
How about we ask every person who has left this city if they feel a PAC is a good idea, and then the local taxpayers can pick up the tab.
From 2500 miles away, NMG, you know what’s best for this city.
Of course none of it on your dime
The gas tax money should go only to road repair and upgrades and we might actually get caught up one day. When we are then the gas tax money should go to the snow removal pot!
I dont support the PAC but lets not be too hard on NMG – I, for one, enjoy hearing points of view from people who have lived here and moved on and bring us a perspective from outside of our own little world.
Why not eliminate the IPG account and transfer the funds to another bank account for our portion of the PAC which after about 8 or so years this account will have a surplus even after operating costs are deducted.
Win, win… No new money needed and the Chamber can resume promoting PG to employers as it should.
You did not quite get it did you Trudy?
THAT is the problem! You are the average PG citizen.
Maybe we should ask how many on here actually pay in taxes … ALL taxes through local, provincial, federal … income, salses, property, services, etc. …..
And just go by below average, average, and above average.
My guess is that most of the posters on here pay less than average, yet still have a say and a vote of who they want to run the country, the province, and the city as well as the regional district.
And then there are those who are on some sort of financial assistance due to disabilities, etc.
But, of course, not a single one of those will come forward to tell us that, will they?
You could build the Lincoln Center in the middle of Prince George, but it won’t cause anyone to move here, quite the reverse actually. The presumption that if you build it people will come is absolute nonsense. This is what happens when you have real estate Agents trying to play Economist.
Economic activity is the only thing that would be a population driver in this part of the world, not access to entertainment.
This fantastical notion about a $40 + million playground, I think, shows how out of touch with the real demographics and issues of this area our politicians are.
There isn’t a huge demand for the arts here. Although the resource aspect of this town is now in serious decline, that attitude and socio-economic reality still pervade this city. There is also a lot of grinding poverty here; people who will never be able to afford such luxuries, never mind be interested in them.
The great thing about Prince George is its potential for high paying jobs, and a low cost of living, but these dynamics are starting to change. Every conceivable tax and fee has increased under the current leadership. They’ve even dreamed up some new ones. That’s not the kind of creativity and leadership I was looking for, I don’t know about everybody else. These people talk out of both sides of their mouths; preaching fiscal sustainability on the one hand and then dreaming up million projects that add little value to our City in my opinion.
If nothing else, Council has proved themselves a tenacious lot. They won’t quit and they won’t listen. I think the only way to kill this project may be a clean sweep this coming election. Or at least take out enough of the main characters that are responsible for this foolishness to send the point home. They’re threatening the long-term sustainability of this community and I won’t stand by and let that happen without a fight. They keep talking about crumbling infrastructure to sell all the utility rate increases and creations. If that’s true, and I believe that it is, shouldn’t you stop adding to the inventory until we have a handle on what we got? If people start leaving the City limits and community to avoid the runaway tax bills, tell me Mr. Gable, what will your real estate holdings be worth then? This has to stop.
That should read:
“Maybe we should ask how MUCH many on here actually pay in taxes”
I’ve been to shows at the Playhouse, TNW and Vanier Hall. If you cannot fill all the seats in those small venues, how can you hope to fill an 800 seat PAC? No disrespect intended but these local shows aren’t filling all the seats so you would need to bring in some big name performances and that would bring the costs up and tickets would be outrageous. I’ve paid up to $150 per ticket in Vancouver to see Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera. Obviously they would need to do a week or two run to attract productions like that. With high ticket prices do you really think people of PG will pay that kind of premium for shows that very few people in town have an interest in?
“PG’s population is 75,000 people in a country with about 35,000,000.”
NMG, if you’re going to do the math of tax distribution properly, you need to use actual tax paying population numbers. Children don’t pay income tax, and there’s 9.9 million children in Canada (2011 census)
There are roughly 24.5 million tax returns filed each year (2010 stat). That’s considerably less than the 35 million you started with.
NMG: “Let’s be honest, this has nothing to do with annual operating subsidies, it’s about the fact that people in PG, for the most part, are uncomfortable supporting art or anything related to art.”
Comments like this only reinforce the elitist art snob stereotype.
If the PAC is such a good idea, it should be no problem to raise the funds for it privately.
These are the kinds of questions that need to be answered… What is the market viability of a PAC? How much are taxpayers paying currently to keep the existing Art Gallery open? How many people have memberships? How many visitors does it get? Are we getting a good bang for our buck? Are Vanier Hall, the CN Centre, and the Playhouse enough for a city of this size?
“Build it and they will come” is great in the movies, but it doesn’t necessarily apply in real life.
The envisioned PAC will not grow the city! The art lovers who presently go to the Playhouse, Vanier Hall, Theater Northwest, the CN centre and the Civic Center will simply go (perhaps) to the new PAC, abandoning the other venues, which would gradually need more and more taxpayer subsidies to keep them going.
How that shuffling of patrons from existing venues to another new one will lead to overall growth population requires an explanation without utopian spin.
“Every conceivable tax and fee has increased under the current leadership. They’ve even dreamed up some new ones. That’s not the kind of creativity and leadership I was looking for, I don’t know about everybody else. These people talk out of both sides of their mouths; preaching fiscal sustainability on the one hand and then dreaming up million projects that add little value to our City in my opinion.”
When one operates a business which needs to market the business and compete with other businesses, there are several options. Reduce costs, increase income, provide similar service as others…..
Let us look at the overnight stay industry which tries to attract people to stay in their place, whether for business, or pleasure or a bit of both.
Some people will go to the $39.99/room 19 unit motel with rooms only. No restaurant, no working TV, no fresh paint, dirty washroom, non functioning A/C., no free coffee in the office, no one to help at 12:17am when your reading light bulb burns out because the office closed at 11pm. You feel unsafe in your room, you can hear whoever is next door âdoing itâ, and you are concerned about your pickup truck outside getting stolen in the middle of the night.
Others will go to the $65/room unit that still smell of disinfectant, does have some coffee and pop and an ice machine in the office that is open all night. May have a restaurant attached which offers a $4.99 breakfast special. Maybe evening an outdoor pool for those hot summers, large enough to not be considered an oversized hot tub.
Then there is the $140 to $275/night full service hotel, albeit not 4 or 5 star, but at least they try. Nice lobby that could use some updating soon, nice rooms that are just in the midst of modernizing, clean, some relatively secure parking areas for that F350 2012 crew cab you drive, a lounge, a restaurant or two, meeting rooms if you want to do a business meeting, a business centre, full hookup for internet, cable TV, ice next to the elevator, free newspaper delivered to your door early in the morning, room service, etc. And, of course, and indoor pool, and a small exercise room. Quite self contained.
We can move up from there, of course, but that is sort of where it stops in PG. One would have to go to large urban centres where there are enough people with money who can afford such places or who are starved for some pampering whenever they manage to leave places like PG for a few days.
So, I liken cities to be a close parallel to such businesses. You want to draw people to live there, people have choices of which type of hotel to stay in and which type of city to move to or move away from.
We have entered into a time in our history where the lifestyle has become more urbanized than countrified. Rural communities have fallen out of favour for many reasons. The question now is will small cities under 100,000 population, quite remote from large urban agglomerations and without some natural amenities such as warm, sunny climates for at least half the year, with as little snow as possible, will they survive for much longer? What will those competitive survival tactics consist of? Adding amenities, increasing the âroomâ prices to do so, or cutting the âroomâ prices, putting renovation projects on hold till the âeconomyâ gets better (great excuse there, isnât it ⦠the economy is to blame).
Are we getting the drift yet?
Jobs? Higher pay? LOL â¦. The higher the paying jobs, the fewer there are and the more mechanization sets in until there is no longer merit in additional mechanization.
The jobs, other than those which service the people in PG and area, are diminishing and have been for several decades. The blue collar jobs (long time since we have lost that expression, it seems to me) are elsewhere. PG is the place where white collar jobs have increased while blue collar jobs have decreased. Traditionally what happens with that is that the average personal income starts to drop or stay the same, but rarely increases unless they white collar jobs are highly specialized such as health providers and highly specialized design/manufacturing.
So, the troop on here says we cut back. We move from the place we had at one time in the general scheme of things that gave us the equivalent of a $150/night room and its services, and simply let that slide into the abyss.
The young people moving up deserve better or they too will move out and there will be nothing left but flee-bitten hotels.
Income tax Gus or a guesstimate of all taxes paid?
Just property/utility tax alone sucks approximately 4500.00 a year out if my pocket and the city wants more! Maybe if the city didn’t waste so much money we wouldn’t be in such rough shape.
Add all the deductions taken off ones annual pay, taxes on fuel, cloths and everything else and that number grows quite quickly. When is the so called tax free day again? Sometime in August?
Maybe we should ask how much tax the PAC supporters pay and how many live outside city limits?
How about you Gus?
“If the PAC is such a good idea, it should be no problem to raise the funds for it privately.”
Shows how little understanding there is of the arts and philanthropic giving in Canada. This is not the USA, where people are prouder of their heritage and their culture.
Yes, they actually do build centres with private donations from major charitable organizations. Not in Canada, and not in Europe or Asia, or the other parts of the industrialized world.
The City funds TNW by 13% of their operations. Feds and the province kick in a combined total similar to that. On top of that TNW get virtually free space from the Novaks, as I understand it. They could up their ticket prices by that percentage and go without tax money.
I believe the only performing arts centre in Canada that is self supporting is the Shakespeare theatre/festival in Ontario. I am not sure if that is still true.
ALL other facilities are subsidized by taxpayers.
Now, for those who send their kids to ballet, jazz dancing, etc. in the several such services there are in the city, they are subsidized by their parents.
So, these young families who will supposedly not visit a PAC, do send their kids to learn piano, guitar, ballet, hip hop, etc.
Bunch of elitist snobs those young families, aren’t they.
Correct you are Pylot Project, the numbers were for simplicity. Like I said, it’s likely worse for PG than what I indicated if you want to use a more accurate methodology. The big money in Canada comes from Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. No real surprise there if you look at the population demographics. PG’s contribution is immaterial in the grand scheme of things if you are looking at it in that context, which was what I was getting at.
Nice try JohnnyBelt, but I don’t even partake in the arts all that often. Of course, I don’t get offended by those that do. Tax dollars fund things that I like to do, so I have no problem with them funding things that others like. Words like tolerance, acceptance, growth and progress come to mind. But hey, I know those aren’t normally in the vernacular of a “righty”.
Interesting though, how would you propose that the questions you say “need to be answered” actually be answered unless you are willing to have the discussion and do a proper feasibility analysis for a PAC in PG? Why wouldn’t you support going through that process?
Here’s a hint, a big part of the answer is in the post of mine that you quoted. People in PG are so frightened of a PAC that they won’t even have an honest dialogue about it and let the facts drive the decision. To tell you the truth, the paranoia is inexplicable.
I’d much rather see our money going to Storm drains, sewers, water mains replacement in this aging infrastructure, and find someone who can pave a street without potholes coming through the next spring.
The thing that holds back any “honest” dialogue is not fear. It is the reality that the ones who make the decisions how to spend our money have already made up their minds that this thing is going ahead, dialogue of any kind or not. An honest dialogue is based on the assumption that the partners in the dialogue and their opinions will be intelligently evaluated and reasoned to find an outcome which is a compromise and acceptable by all.
The die is already cast.
Speaking of elitist views …. let me introduce you to the farmers of Lethbridge, Alberta and their elitist theatre groups … that is right groups as in more than one…..so elitist in fact that they have one of those elitist art programs at the University (7191 FTE, fall 2013 – not bad for a bunch of prairie farmers)
Here is the page for the City of Lethbridge proposed NEW PAC
http://www.lethbridge.ca/living-here/Projects-Initiatives/Pages/New-Performing-Arts-Centre-CIP2014-2023.aspx
They call it new because they have had one in the control of the City, not the SD, since the time since the SD57 had Vanier Hall. The Centre has two facilities, a 500 seat multi-purpose theatre as well as what they call a black box.
Total projected cost for something of similar size to the one proposed for PG is shown as around $60million in 2014 dollars.
From one of the reports come these words:
Yates Theatre â mainly used for theatre performances and rehearsals. Total annual usage of over 250 which is considered full usage since there has to be transition time between users.
Sterndale Bennet Theatre â similar to Yates purposes. Theatre user groups are New West Theatre, Lethbridge Musical Theatre, Playgoers of Lethbridge
University Theatre and David Spinks Theatre at the University of Lethbridge are relatively busy with the Department of Theatre and Dramatic Arts academic functions and student performances.
Recital Hall at the University of Lethbridge is uses by University music events, classes and rehearsals.
The Enmax Centre (their arena) can be configured for a 1,200 seat venue with curtains and dividers, but this is expensive and lacks proper support. In this configuration it can be appropriate for certain performances and touring acts but is largely inadequate for live performances, particularly unamplified music, dance and theatre. Notably few facilities are able to present touring programs.
I agree with Prince George. Any open dialogue with the City and the PAC would show immediately that they have process’s in place to get the money and build the project, and they are biding their time.
We have tried to get the facts on the project for a number of years ie; Cost, Location, Financing, Operating Costs, and Maintenance, etc; and have not been successful.
The real machinations around this project have been kept from the public, and I expect they will continue to keep it from the public until they have all their ducks in order, and then Walla, they will go into propaganda mode, and make the big sell.
Vintage Prince George manipulative politics.
“An honest dialogue is based on the assumption that the partners in the dialogue and their opinions will be intelligently evaluated….”
I agree …
BUT you missed one important thing.
“An honest dialogue is based on the assumption that the partners in the dialogue and their opinions will be intelligently informed prior to having that discussion.”
In other words, we are given half of the information we need to make an informed decision. The PAC society has done a piss poor job of informing the public and the City, hiding in fear of the reaction they will get.
The above interview is still lacking a lot of information but it is the best one I have seen on this site since the Society was first formed, both from the interviewing point of view as well as the response from the Society.
I wish that they would spend some money on a MUCH better web site. Communication has never been their strong point when that is what should have been their strong point.
The City has never been involved. They gave the PAC $250,000 to spend on preparing some needed reports. The City of Lightbridge spent twice that much to use pretty well the same people – Webb as well as Schick Sheiner …..
It is interesting to read the two reports.
Basically we are in much poorer shape than Lethbridge.
In Canada one has to work on the promotion of culture, even worse than in the USA.
The USA has found a way to do that. Canada has not.
NMG: “Nice try JohnnyBelt, but I don’t even partake in the arts all that often. Of course, I don’t get offended by those that do. Tax dollars fund things that I like to do, so I have no problem with them funding things that others like. Words like tolerance, acceptance, growth and progress come to mind. But hey, I know those aren’t normally in the vernacular of a “righty”.”
Nice try yourself. I fully realize and accept that my tax dollars go to things I don’t necessarily use, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the proposed PAC is a very expensive project that we cannot afford right now.
The City can’t even tell us what its debt repayment plan is, and they want to run the credit card up some more with an expensive PAC? It makes no sense.
A PAC is a ‘want’, not a ‘need’. There might be a time in the future where it makes sense, but as it sits today, the population of PG is currently stagnant and it has been for a long time. An expensive to build and operate PAC won’t change that.
Now, having said that the PAC has never been good in the communication department, I have to add that some of the key (read people who were influential in City small “p” politics) people were following standard City and even UNBC methodologies when dealing with such public projects. That methodology centers around the notion that the less can be told to the public .. nudge, nudge …. the better our chances of success.
Let us see how well the City can handle it from here on in. They may still have to fall on their sword.
Then again, if Dick Harris leaves politics, maybe he can become the federal champion of a PAC in PG and leave a totally unexpected legacy.
NMG: “Nice try JohnnyBelt, but I don’t even partake in the arts all that often.”
And just to add to what I said earlier, I probably would get more use out of a PAC than the ‘average’ person. I have attended quite a few events over the years at TNW, Vanier Hall, the Playhouse and CN Centre.
I agree with ‘woodwoman’; this is going to be a GIANT waste of money. Not something the majority of the PG taxpayers want. We have to pay for the RCMP building; stop with the edifaces, please!!
Just think; in February of next year, the eyes of Canada will be on this city for the winter games. We need better road conditions, and better snow removal first.
“New Society Chair Sees PAC As Growth Stimulant”
So is Viagra.
(too risqué for Sunday?)
“A PAC is a ‘want’, not a ‘need’.”
By your estimation. By some who are in the City competitive game on a variety of fronts it can actually be a need just like the hotel that sees competition moving in and they either keep pace or get out of the business ….. sometimes dying a long, slow death over time.
PG has been dying a long slow death over time thinking that eventually people will move here because it is the cheapest place to live. Well, that is what it is, comparatively low taxes (although some people who do not know how to measure that comparatively do not believe that) low housing costs, but amenities that are becoming dated and not keeping up with other communities (hotels).
I said that the PAC Society, and most certainly the City, has been lousy at communication. One of the reasons to put the PAC downtown is to provide additional convention space in the downtown. An 800 seat space plus a 250 seat flat floored flex space, space plus a 100+ seat flex space easily doubles the flexibility and size for any provincial if not federal level conference and convention facility. Those are the types of facilities which would give the Delta, the Inn and the Ramada much better marketing advantages to promote their hotel rooms.
You see, a PAC is a multi-space, multi-purpose tool for a good promotion manager, such as the CN Centre has to make the thin fire on all four or six cylinders.
A space like that ought to be able to bring in $2million plus a year with a 25% subsidy from the hotel industry plus city taxpayers (tourism PG, IPG, City Hall cultural grants, City Hall facility maintenance).
Anyone looking at a $700,000 revenue operation after 3 to 5 years is simply lazy!
“Vintage Prince George manipulative politics.”
Hey now. PG doesn’t hold sole ownership of that kind of political mind game. Mayor Moonbeam (aka Gregor the Good / Robertson) pulls the same kind of stunt all the time.
By the time any project gets to “public consultation”, the project is pretty much ready to break ground.
Let’s see I already pay over 300 to the city for various services incliuding the games. Now let’s add on the PAC, drainage tax and forced recycling. Did I miss any?
“So is Viagra.”
Wrong application …..
How about “so is a gambling facility”, which, btw, was seen by a few councilors of the day as the group that will bring in a privately run performance space to get in some of the kinds of shows that would not go to the CN centre ….. it brings in audiences in some of the GVRD casinos, but they did not manage to operate on in PG.
One of the reasons why is because they did not put in the type of facility some others have nor the kind of facility they were saying they were going to put in. A flat floored space just doe not cut it for good views of the entertainment and 18″ round tables with high bar stools do not cut it for audience comfort.
I imagine facilities from the performance side are just as lousy.
PG get the short end of the stick too often. We can’t even manage to gat a good private cabaret setting into a Casino that pulls in over $50million a year (I think that is around the number).
gus: “PG has been dying a long slow death over time thinking that eventually people will move here because it is the cheapest place to live. Well, that is what it is, comparatively low taxes (although some people who do not know how to measure that comparatively do not believe that) low housing costs, but amenities that are becoming dated and not keeping up with other communities (hotels).”
I would add to that and say that the one thing that makes a population grow (or not) is jobs. A lower cost of living and other amenities are nice, but if the jobs aren’t here, people will live elsewhere.
And if we are thinking a PAC might compete on the convention and conference front, we are in tough against places like Vancouver. It’s a hard sell to come to Prince George (and its climate), when Vancouver is far easier to access by air. That is a problem of our geography and not easily solvable.
Like I said, ‘build it and they will come’ hasn’t worked well in PG.
Maybe the PAC Society ought to sit down with the Casino to put together a comprehensive convention facility/casino/hotel expansion/multiple muli-purpose spaces for artistic performances as well as convention/conference at the cross roads of north-south and east-west highways.
Provide a protected passageway over the highway, keep the Playhouse, link to an improved golf course, curling facility and an improved pine centre shopping mall.
Forget about downtown. Keep that as the office hub and shut it down at night.
We need a planner. Forget about The realtor in charge of planning and the auditor technicians in the planning department. We have no brains in that area that give us the data required to make decisions.
The myPG and the SGOG exercises were all for nothing.
“I would add to that and say that the one thing that makes a population grow (or not) is jobs.”
And here I thought we had a tough job recruiting for the jobs we have that are not being filled. Which is it?
1. We have jobs that people are not coming to fill?
2. We have no jobs and thus people are not coming?
Or …. we have a qualified people and job vacancy mismatch.
You have not the faintest idea which of those or any other reasons it is JB. So don’t pretend you have the knowledge to even weigh in on the question.
I would be surprised if IPG even has the answer to that other than some anecdotal stabs in the dark.
We are so underinformed when it comes to the need for data, it is becoming a crime on the part of those in the City that should be responsible for that.
gus, there’s no need to be arrogant and condescending, but I have been around long enough that I know that you can get that way when someone challenges your views.
gus: “1. We have jobs that people are not coming to fill?
2. We have no jobs and thus people are not coming?”
You know as well as I that the issue is complex. IPG flew to Ireland to try and recruit tradespeople, which as far as I know, didn’t work. At the end of the day, people aren’t moving here for a variety of reasons. Why you still think a PAC is a good idea is beyond me.
Please do not try to make the arrogant ands condescending argument to deflect meaningful questions.
Identify where in my response I was arrogant and condescending to you!
That being said, I called you on your simplistic answer to what you now concede to be a more complex question. I tried to draw a more complex response from you, which I would hope you would see that you rarely provide.
The issue also is not one sided of drawing people here. The issue is retention as well.
Do we, as in IPG, even have figures of how roughly how many people leave this community even somewhat reluctantly as opposed to coming to this community?
Ireland? …. I think that coming from Ireland to PG would be a considerable culture shock.
Does IPG even have a clue which countries would pose the least culture shock, let alone would have qualified people whose credentials would be most quickly recognized in Canada?
Some thoughts on differences all of us on this blog should remember:
âHonest differences are often a healthy sign of progress.â â Mahatma Gandhi
âAll the events of your past have formed a lens, or paradigm, through which you see the world. And since no one’s past is exactly like anyone else’s, no two people see alike.â â Sean Covey, The 7 Habits Of Highly Effective Teens
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âCynics criticize, winners analyze.â
“I fully realize and accept that my tax dollars go to things I don’t necessarily use, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the proposed PAC is a very expensive project that we cannot afford right now”
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You don’t know if you can’t afford it, because you are missing those “answers” that you spoke about in an earlier post.
So, do you even want those answers or are you content to not even seek the info and assume you know everything?
I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I’d sure as heck like to see the analysis before making my mind up. Would that not stand to reason?
A start of an analysis about Ireland, its emigration as well as immigration ups and down.
Seems like a nice civil discussion group on this site. I doubt they would fit in well with the 250NEWS crowd and the gritty mill town attitude. Just an aside …. ;-)
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ireland-has-highest-net-emigration-level-in-europe-1.1601685
From other sites, seems that a significant number go to Australia and New Zealand which are both much more “UK” in mindset than Canada, other than parts of Vancouver Island.
Vancouver may also be a drawing card. How PG fits in to that lifestyle is beyond me.
“the proposed PAC is a very expensive project that we cannot afford right now”
I have heard that since 1973 when I first came to PG. It has been repeated many times.
In fact, a lot of people have houses they cannot afford, yet they still have them.
Not only that, but some of them expect that in order for them to continue to have those houses that they partially as an investment rather than a place to live, they expect the City to build fewer amenities for the masses so that they do not have as many taxes.
I say, live in a house for living purposes, get taxed less on that, and put the savings in an investment that does not get taxed until you withdraw the investment gains as well as capital.
I wonder how many people who have more house due to part of it being an investment ever deduct the 20 or 30% extra they have to pay for taxes and maintenance and heating, etc. from the gross gains they made when they sell it ……. don’t forget the real estate and legal fees.
I think it is simple we do not have a large enough population to support the PAC at this time.You need good paying jobs to bring people to this community.IPG went to Ireland for a free trip that’s all it was and why were they looking for people to move to a place that does not have a job for them when they get here.If employers need employees let them look for them not IPG.When is the next free trip to China?
“Based on what we see as the regional need and the kinds of activities and capacities that we expect to be able to fill seats with, the operating subsidy would be about $300 thousand per year. That would be the net deficit. We were looking at about a million dollars a year to operate it, and it would generate about $700 thousand a year from activitiesâ so the shortfall, at least in the first year, would be $300 thousand.”
They know that revenue will not meet expenses in the first year and cannot predict any improvement beyond that time frame.
Are these actually business people trying to sell a substantial net cost item?
In what world does anybody build a facility known to operate at a net loss?
And this is with out debt repayment.
Tell you what, if a PAC can support itself, fly at her. Otherwise, piss off.
I agree with JB on his assessment Gus, you are arrogant and often dismissive, and from my perspective don’t really have any real justification for it. Your level of knowledge about just about everything you comment on is often underwhelming, from my perspective. Especially considering you seem to have vast amounts of time to do nothing but research stuff online and then blog about it exhaustively.
From time to time you and I agree on subjects, but more often than not, I find your comments odd and possibly designed to be invidious, not a true exploration of anything. You might think being a contrarian is entertaining and a good use of time, but I don’t.
Present your points of view, but leave the derision and innuendo out of it.
Gus give it a rest already, run for council, state your name if you’re so convinced about the PAC , tell the people who you are . Stand up for what you believe in, don’t hide.
16 comments out of 56 so far, would suggest to anyone that you have a lot to say, as you do every day, but never want to reveal who you are.
For God’s sake 250, limit Gus to 10% of the comments , not 40% as he likes to take. Debate is debate, this isn’t.
Meh, gus isn’t that bad, I would take a hundred of him over the annoying ankle biting trolls who have nothing better to do than looks for other peoples comments and derisively attack them, rather than engage them in civilized debate on the subject at hand.
No doubt this blog news site has / is changing, the moderator(s) are not stepping in as much to diffuse arguments or name calling / mud slinging. Why should they? Sometimes it is very entertaining to read, the tit for tat exchanges, particularly when humor is injected, becomes a very entertaining and funny read.
Just my spin on things.
I think people need to stop taking things so personally, LOL.
The Operating and Maintenance cost of the Port Theatre in Nanaimo BC is somewhere in the area of $500,000.00 per year,.
Considering their location, and the population in the surrounding areas one would think that they could do better, however they don’t.
There is absolutely no way in hell that a PAC in Prince George can generate more money than Nanaimo.
We do not have the population, even counting the surrounding areas ie; Mcbride, MacKenzie, Vanderhoof, Ft St James, Burns Lake, etc; Nor do we have the interest level.
I have been to a number of performances at Vanier Hall, or the Playhouse, where there certainly was not a full house. In fact some had so few people in attendance I felt sorry for the performers.
The idea that the people of Prince George would support such a facility to any extent is nothing more than a pipe dream.
This is more about jobs for architects, engineers, contractors, etc, than it is about the Performing Arts, and once its built you will see that those who supported it the most will be conspicuous by their absence. Much the same as the Northern Sport Centre, Civic Centre, CN Centre etc; Lots of hype to get the project, and once built who give a chit.
Let’s say NMG comments are full of assumptions, oh wait they are….lol. Let’s assume of the huge costs over run that always happen, let’s assume it costs %59 more to run a year, let’s assume it’s rarely used.
Let’s assume we don’t want it, let’s assume the politicians actually listen to the voters and cancel this white elephant, and let’s assume ……..
I see no need for a PAC to be built in Prince George. The town is a cultural sewer. Even PG’s cultural icon (Mr. PG) has a septic tank for a head. You folks otta grow up and see what is happening in other communities.
B S is a growth stimulant, too.
How about we build a university here to increase population growth?? Oh, we tried that one.
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