No PAC!!! Use the PG Playhouse! No more debt for PG!!

I will personally never step on the ice surface of any of the hockey arena’s in town. Nor do I attend events in them in general. Can I get a tax rebate please or like the poster above who wants no more debt, so therefore no more spending on arenas ?

Good article Ben. Let’s see the fundraising first, afterall, look at how even the schools have to fundraise for basic needs.
I don’t think “you build it and people will come” necessarily applies to the PAC.
The city was even looking at tendering out the pools to private oversight for the savings in the maintenance area. We should no be saddled with that amount again.

Can the PAC people have an annual house draw? 50/50 draws are quite popular people seem to support those! What does it take to get a lottery license to do that kind if thing? Maybe they should ask the Spruce Kings.

LunarcomPG I hear ya but just entering those buildings count even though you don’t step on the ice! I wished I could get a school tax rebate because my kids have been finished school a long time ago. Too bad it doesn’t work that way.

If they can raise the 12 million then they should build it for that 12 million. There is very little benefit to the community from a PAC.

Wilbur:”…that folks who really haven’t turned their mind to it can see what an opportunity there is.”

That is a pretty vague statement! Can he tell us what the opportunity is?

Neither the federal nor the provincial government have stepped up to the plate, the City hasn’t either and neither have the private sponsors! Since nobody has put anything into the pot what is the missed opportunity Mr. Wilbur?

Somebody has to get this thing going to take advantage of the “opportunity” – whatever it is – so those who want the PAC (the PAC Society and the private sponsors) should blink first, in my opinion.

Does anyone know if any other civic facility first raised a quarter of their funding. For that matter are there any facilities that had to promise 25 percent before they even were considered? Is this limited to arts and culture?

“This Council has adopted a vision that includes a Performing Arts Centre, and there is no wavering from that.” .. pretty arrogant if you ask me. Aren’t these yokels supposed to be working for us and not dictating what THIER wishes are? I will vote for any council member or mayor who isn’t supportive of the PAC funding as it currently stands.

“Does anyone know if any other civic facility first raised a quarter of their funding. For that matter are there any facilities that had to promise 25 percent before they even were considered? Is this limited to arts and culture?” .. that isn’t what this article is really about. It is about the PAC taking a step to get the public on board, in this case, make a little bit of effort to raise some money if this project is so important to them.
There are lots of organizations and venues in town that have to have fundraisers to help offset their cost or construction. If there is enough public support, then contributions come in. Obviously there is not a huge pool of support for this thing or we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

I wonder how much the PAC has raised. $12M might be a high bar to pass before oking this type of project. I still like the idea that they put 25% into the construction, but if they had $10M saved and pulled the other $2M after construction started, I would be ok with that.

But if the truth comes out I bet they aren’t even half way there. The taxpayers of PG should also remember that these types of projects typically go over budget. So that $12M may need to be bumped up to $15M from each of the parties involved.

I think the City would be better served by spending there $12M on making existing City facilities look nicer. This town has an image of being dirty. Let’s put some new paint on some of these buildings and make them look nice. The recent touch ups to the outside of the Spruce Kings Coliseum are a good example. And if I can drive by some of these places without driving through a minefield of ruts and poteholes even better.

But simply raising funds to build this emporium is only the start. What does it cost to run this facility and how much will be subsidized by the city coffers to keep the heat,power and maintenance staff on? That continuing cost also needs to be discussed.
Yes Iam4sam, we should have had the same shared responsibility requirements for the other facilities built for our enjoyment – but then, we would probably still only have the open air Watrous Street Swimming Pool and the Old Military Built Civic Centre where the Civic Centre and Swimming Pool parking lot is today.

I don’t mind my taxes going to buildings or places that will get used. Look at the arenas, constantly being used. Soccer fields, constantly being used. Pools, always busy.

Now lets just assume for a moment a PAC gets built. It can at most have a couple of shows a day so the majority of the time it is occupied by actors rehearsing etc. So to cover the projected $500,000 yearly operating costs, using the current TNW price of roughly $20/ticket, it would need to have at least 30 shows a month and completely sell out all 800 seats every single performance. It has been my experience when going to shows in this town, they are nowhere near to selling out smaller venues, so how can the hope to sell out an 800 seat venue for every single performance?

The Kelowna PAC society went to the city to have their portion of the funds wiped clean. That was only a million and a half, PG taxpayers will be on the hook for half the costs plus the land no doubt about it

No commitment from the federal government, no commitment from the provincial government, and no private sponsor money = no PAC. Sure wish the money spenders at city hall could get it.

Moose, weren’t projected op costs over 1 million annually with taxpayers covering 350k of that and the society doing 700k ?

PG taxpayers have already spent 200k + on this project. Every time you turn around the numbers change, how about an updated summary of all estimated costs and not just the new updated building costs Beth is asking for

To quote Sir Walter Scott.

**OH WHAT A TANGLED WEB WE WEAVE,
WHEN FIRST WE PRACTISE TO DECEIVE**

The story of a Performing Arts Centre in Prince George is a story of collusion, manipulation, and insincerity.

We cannot seem to get the facts about the size of the building, the location, the cost, including operating and maintenance costs, etc; and yet we are supposed to make a learned decision. How is that possible??

The City has now hired a market research firm (R.A. Malatest & Assoc for a cost of some $20,000.00 to phone 450 residents of Prince George to probe their views on live entertainment preferences, habits and amounts they’re willing to pay to enjoy sports, theatre, concerts, and more.

This of course is part of the manipulation of this project.

Seems to me that we have a perfect situation where we can get all the information we need (honest information) and have the issue of a Performing Arts Centre, go to a referendum this fall. That would settle the issue once and for all.

The argument that a referendum costs money is not valid if its held during a regular election. So all we need is a fair question, and we are off to the races.

A referendum would give Councilor Wilbur’s **Champions** an opportunity to weigh into the benefits to Prince George of such a facility.

With a clear outline of the cost of the building, along with where the funds would be coming from would go a long way to settle this issue.

There is no doubt in my mind that a good portion of the funding will come from selling the Playhouse Theatre lands, and other land on Highway 16 West. The Federal Gas Tax effective in 2015 allows for Gas Tax Funds to be spent on Cultural Projects, so that would amount to the Federal Contribution, however this money could be spent on road rehab, and other infrastructure of a more serious nature.

Selling off other assets, and using the money to build a monolithic Performing Arts Centre, that at best would sit empty most of the year can hardly be considered a responsible use of taxpayers money.

Raising taxes through utilities etc, so that more money remains in general revenue from regular taxes, is in may opinion another manipulation of the taxing process.

We need to bring all these issues to the forefront during this election year. People running for public office this year, who cannot or will not give us detailed information on how they will handle our debt, our continual raising of taxes, and how our tax dollars are spent, should not be elected.

The free ride to City Hall, and the mantra **let the good times roll** has come to an end. We need responsible, honest, and sincere politicians, and administrators to get us out of the terrible mess we are in.

“Of not just the City, but the region, which this City serves.”

Alrighty then, this should make the task of funding a little easier if it is not just PG, but the entire region that contributes to this absurd expensive debacle.

If this is intended to also serve the “region”, then the PAC proponents need to approach ALL the other communities in the region for funding. Why should PG be responsible for servicing the region. On top of that, the Regional district now needs to become involved and contribute to this project.

If this is the case, then I would suggest that all funding options by set at 50% of the total cost, with the remaining being solicited from the city, the province and the federals.

Wilbur, you are not selling this very well.

We’ve done this all before. The only difference is the price gets higher every time they show up with their hands out.

“Is this limited to arts and culture?”

Both (all three?) levels of government have classified priorities according to certain criteria. Harper for instance has cut funding for arts and for women’s issues, plus others.

The province has classes of priority, I am sure. Health, education, roads, infrastructure, and so forth.

That makes it even more important that the PAC Society demonstrates (by coming up with the funding that they claim can be found locally) that the priority can and may be re-classified into a higher bracket.

Palopu the Gas tax money can’t be used for the PAC as according to the info on the web that money has to be used only for projects that improve the environment. Would PAC would improve air quality or lead to cleaner water?

This 12 million private money – it has a cost as well. If it goes to PAC, it doesn’t go to something else. Say Canfor steps up to the plate with 2 million, and Jimmy Pattison empties his change drawer and throws in a million, then two years later Northern Health needs the latest and greatest medical equipment (something that benefits pretty much everyone) and Canfor and Jimmy say – sorry – no money from us, we gave already to PAC. That’s the true cost of the PAC – 12 million in local taxpayer dollars, and 12 million no longer available to be donated to other community projects that are arguably of more general benefit than a PAC. Let’s not forget – there is a PAC in town, it’s called the Playhouse, and so far it’s most consistent tenant is a church. The problem with the Playhouse – is it’s just not good enough – according to PAC proponents.

sorry that last question was a bit redundant.

The gas tax money can also be used if the project reduces greenhouse gases but with all the CO2 being released talking about a project that has virtually gone nowhere for the past twenty years, it seems to be creating more greenhouse gases rather than less.

Until our MP’s say they have twenty million to help out and the PAC raises at least ten million through fund raising, can we stop wasting time talking about a project that isn’t viable and get on with more important discussions.

Maybe if we cut all the political posturing and reduce all the bs being thrown out, we might actually save the environment.

the exact same shoulda applied to the can winter games folks, thats going to be the death of us, just watch, and no ones asking the questions

Have a referendum on the subject- have the PAC group including Wilbur show the $$$; then the story can come to an end
All sport organizations fundraise as well as TNW, schools, the hospital etc. – have you not bought Girl Guides cookies?

Ya know, if they had raised the 12 million back in 1991 (or whenever this has been on the books since) and invested it at a modest 6% return, they would have about $45 million to build whatever they wanted now. ;)

“The free ride to City Hall, and the mantra **let the good times roll** has come to an end. We need responsible, honest, and sincere politicians, and administrators to get us out of the terrible mess we are in.”

And when are You running palopu?? Or are you content to just complain over and over and over and over again……as Ghandi said “Be the change you wish to see in the world”…..so when are YOU gonna get off your arse at the computer screen and start putting your name on Ballets? If not, feel free to move if you dislike it here so much.

Palopu is putting his name on Ballets? I though he was against the PAC… :)

“so when are YOU gonna get off your arse at the computer screen and start putting your name on Ballets?”

LOL!! Was “Ballets” written on purpose CrysBaron? If so that is damned funny. Palopu in ballet pointe shoes.

Different Perspective. The Gas Tax criteria has been changed in 2015, and going forward it can be used for cultural, sport, infrastructure. You might be looking at the criteria from 2005 to 2014.

CrysBaron. I do much more than complain, however I doubt if you would be able to comprehend that. Running for Council is not the only way to get things done. If that was the case then we should all run.

We elect Councilors, the Mayor, and hire Administrators, staff, and workers to do the work of the citizens of Prince George, its their job to get the job done, and its our job to complain as much as is necessary to see that they do.

To suggest that I or others run for Council if we don’t like what is being done is the ultimate **cop out**. We don’t need to run, what we need to do, is elect people, and hire people who will do the job that we pay them for.

Comprehend????

Does anyone actually support the spending of this amount of money for this purpose? It’s not just about the crazy amount of upfront cost to build this monstrosity, but the unknown annual operating and maintenance costs that will add to your property tax bill every year. People got all torqued up about spending less money than this on the RCMP building, which actually supports a primary function in our town. We already pay over $20million annual in parks/recreation/cultural spending. How much is enough when you have crumbling infrastructure?

Should start a campaign and sell t-shirts that read “STOP THE PERFORMING ARTS CENTRE,” then use the proceeds to campaign against or for candidates that oppose it.

Hey where is Gus on this subject He would be able to tell us how it should be done. I guess maybe Wilbur has spoken for him.
cheers

“If not, feel free to move if you dislike it here so much.”
Crysbaron is Ms Green! It all makes sense now ;)

Hey, Dave W. Last election campaign you said we need more people to live in PG and then our taxes will go down. How about getting more people to live here, and I’ll wait til my taxes go down (enough to notice) then maybe, and I mean maybe I’ll be on your side with the PAC.

LOL…and if you watch closely Crysbaron posts on here under many different names. Aliasbaron probably supports the PAC because it would mean more jobs for some useless city employees.

Okay here I go. Has anyone here heard of the Stratford Theatre? – It is located in Stratford On. Population 30886 – It’s world class, it’s been around for about 60 years. Success story. I was able to attend a show back in the early 70’s – Even as a young boy I thought, wow in a small city like Stratford there is this really unique theater. Lets look at Prince George, and consider population about 80000 – all around Prince George there is a lot of major activity in mining, fracturing sand, oil exploring and associated industries. There is nothing really major happening in Prince George. So what we need to do as a city is reach out as far as we can to those out lying industries and put Prince George forth as a service and entertainment center. We need to market ourselves as such or we will eventually fade away to insignificance. The PAC would be just one more venue to accomplish that. If it was marketed well and managed well, it could be a real success story. It would certainly bring much needed new life to the downtown core. My only problem is, how are we going to pay for this? It’s like a family who has to buy a new car and no money. Yes we need a new car, but how are we going to pay for it? Same goes for the City, yes we need a PAC, but we have no money?

What’s with this? Just noticed on another forum that the PAC office is non other than IPG.

PGRPAC Society
201-1300 1st Avenue
Prince George, BC
V2L 2Y3

Maybe we can apply Northland’s logic. If the citizens of P.G. can find $500 dollars and fog a mirror we can get a PAC.

Initiatives Prince George
Suite 201 – 1300 First Avenue
Prince George, British Columbia V2L 2Y3

Whaaaat???? No more empty offices near “Burger Queen”?

That “office” is called a mailing address. It is used instead of a PO box.

The fact is, the PAC Society was a creature of IPG and indirectly City Council. No one ever highlighted that little detail, but those who followed it closely knew that.

Why was it a creature of the city?

Simple. IPG had commissioned a marketing study to determine how to turn around downtown businesses to make it into a more “normal” downtown as seen in many other cities as they grow and go through the cycle of new regional malls and box store power centres which tend to suck the retail business life out of downtown.

That $140,000 study identified several strategies used in more successful downtown precincts in modern GROWING cities and included the part that a PAC could play if located downtown.

In fact, a cultural study by the Regional District identified the same strategy for the region – a central PAC in PG should be promoted to tie the region together. It follows the same strategy used for the Regional Museum – Exploration Place.

The city finally asked IPG to act on the recommendations rather than just shelving the report which is not even available on the web as far as I can tell.

Because the City had tried on several occasions though the normal building committee route to activate the PAC concept, but failed, they thought that encouraging a group to form a society would be worth a try. That is, for instance, how the Port Theatre in Nanaimo eventually was built.

Another tidbit of history.

BTW, it took some 8 years for someone to notice that little bit of a questionable decision.

Good find guesswhat. ;-)

From a March 09, 2014 report on 250NEWS come these words from the new society chair.
“We asked Gable whether the performing arts centre question should be put to referendum. “Well, I guess I would leave that to the politicians in terms of how they want to look at financing it. Specifically, when we talk about $42 million, roughly a quarter of that would be contributed from City of Prince George funds. The federal and provincial governments as well as private partners would provide the other three-quarters.”
blog/view/31377/1/new+society+chair+sees+pac+as+growth+stimulant

From a November 19, 2013 report on 250NEWS come these words:
The total cost of the project is estimated at $42.5 million dollars and speaking to Council, Chairman of the Prince George Regional Performing Arts Centre Society Ken Kilcullen, says the Prince George taxpayer will not carry the full financial burden. The power point presentation says 25% from the City and Regional District, 25% will come from the federal government, 25% from the provincial government and 25% from equity partners, and fund raising.
blog/view/30177/1/prince+george+council's+latest+40+million+dream?id=38&st=15

One has to do quite a bit of constructive interpretation, to say the least, to come up with the notion that the PGRPAC Society said that 25% should come from privately raised funds AND that the Society be the one to do that BEFORE the facility is approved. Look at how long it took in Quesnel to get the funds required WITH a project that was approved, a location identified, and a commitment made by the province.

It took so long that the legal allotted time of 5 years was over, even though they were relatively close. Raising funds on a whim is virtually impossible. This is not a carney operation. Even the feds and the province want more certainty than that, let alone small and large private donations.

In addition, raising funds for such projects cannot be done with a bake sale mentality. We just saw on free for all Friday how much it takes to raise money for the BC SPCA and the BC Cancer Society. Both are relatively reputable charitable organizations. One is a bit more effective than the other in raising money. 11 cents on the $ in the case of the BCSPCA and 36 cents on the dollar in the case of BC Cancer.

So, to raise $10million from private donors takes $1.1 million if you are taking care of animals. To raise $10million from private donors takes $3.6 million in case of maybe finding some improvements for those people who have cancer.

In the case of hoping that some sort of PAC with some uncertain number of seats will be built sometime in the future, on some sort of a site in PG, I suggest that it will take somewhere closer to the money spent by the BC Cancer Association. Bake sale approaches will end up like Quesnel. The $10,000 “cheque” written by a Tony Roma’s on a large piece of coroplast for a photo op will turn into molten plastic long before the centre goes into the ground, especially when the restaurant is closed after the promo has long been forgotten.

PartnershipBC said as much in their report of the viability of the financial plan. We MUST have City backing and a site in order to even bother asking the province and the feds for money. The City has had that report for years, but they never acted on it. The City was the one sitting on their behinds. No one has the guts to come out and commit.

When they finally saw an opportunity and put in a proposal to a federal call for P3 proposals which was open to cultural projects they flubbed it. They were totally unprepared to put a credible proposal in. It did not even meet the RFP proposal criteria. It was a half-hearted attempt which did nothing to show PG in a good light, in my opinion.

Although many rejoiced, the citizens were not even informed of why the project failed to be selected to go to the next step. I know of no public process which does not provide a post mortem that would assist in putting together future proposals. I saw no one from the media in this community doing any investigative reporting on that.

I faced the realization a long time ago that this City really does not care. They think they are being taxed to death, when the report from Money Sense once more showed that we are in the bottom quarter to third of 200 communities in Canada when it comes to the amount of municipal taxes we pay. Evaluations from BCStats that include user fees back that up as well.

If we continue believing that, and if City Hall does not smarten up and understand that there are areas they can improve effectiveness and efficiencies in significant amounts, we will simply continue to rot at the core. This will never become a city that a significant number of people will be interested in moving to.

When asked at the last Council meeting how much the province and the feds could be expected to grant to PG for a PAC, Beth James responded that the normal funding division is a third each.

It is easy to confirm that by looking at some past and current projects.

Port Theater in Nanaimo, from their web page:

“The City of Nanaimo formed The Port Theatre Society in 1989 to build an 800-seat theatre on the breathtaking waterfront in downtown Nanaimo. The Port Theatre opened in September of 1998, thanks to grants from the Federal/Provincial Infrastructure Works Program and an outstanding level of community support. Of the $13.1 million budget, $8.6 million came from the Infrastructure Works program. The remaining $4.5 million was from individuals, service clubs and corporate donations, the City of Nanaimo and Regional District Areas A, B, C, D and E.”

It actually took some 11 years for those who began the fundraising activities to get the City funding in place for the theatre not the less than 8 years shown on the web page. It seems these days that revisionist history is rampant throughout the world in every organization and community.

So, 66% from the feds and province and 34% from the community, both city and regional taxes and private donors from naming rights to names on seats, bricks, etc.

Most of these fundraising strategies require a final building design and a contract to build and a sod turning photo op to get any hard cash. Even that might be contractual commitments for several years, such as $500thousand/year for 10 years to call it the Canfor Centre for the Performing Arts or $1million/year for 15 years to call it the Enbridge Centre for the Performing Arts.
==========================================

There is a is a new PAC being built in St. Catharines, Ontario.

It is about 20,000sf (30%) larger than the version proposed in PG.

Brock University is a “partner” in this venture, which would be one reason the building is larger than proposed in PG.

So, we have a partnership with an institute which is partially funded by taxes and partially funded by students and university endowments provided through philanthropic gifting.

What our PGRPAC Society is looking at for a partner is a mystery to me. Neither UNBC nor CNC are likely candidates for the next 10+ years of getting some sort of a performing arts program.

I can think of some possibilities, but the likelihood of them coming to fruition is, in my opinion, slim. Perhaps that is something the media should be exploring – what exactly does the PGRPAC Society have in mind. They have not even been able to get existing cultural groups to commit to renting space. The City is even now having to do that work for them.

Here is the web page for St. Catharines PAChttp://newpac.ca

Here is the fundraising campaign page.
http://newpac.ca/campaign
==================================

This is the government funding agreement announcement. How the PGRPAC Society is supposed to be able to do the work of the City is beyond me.

If anyone should be doing the footwork for that it should be IPG. Not a peep out of them. Why? In fact, why are city staff doing this when IPG, if they had the capacity, would be the logical ones to do this? Where are the reporters in this City?

May 22, 2009
Funding announced for downtown performing arts centre

“Jubilant local politicians announced $54 million in funding Friday morning to build a downtown performing arts complex in St. Catharines that’s being hailed as key to revitalizing the city’s ailing core and boosting the economy.

The federal and provincial governments pledged a combined $36 million, with another $18 million coming from the City of St. Catharines to construct the Niagara Centre for the Arts by 2012.”

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2009/05/22/funding-announced-for-downtown-performing-arts-centre

The PAC is scheduled to open in 2015. They had to do a redesign when the bids came in too high. So it looks like the cost went from 2009 dollars of $54 million to 2013 dollars of $60 million. With the construction start, a campaign to raise $5 million privately was started. That is 12% of the cost, not 25% as suggested by the author.

So, there we have it once more …. Equal amounts from the feds, the province and the city. That is the formula.

Beats me where the PGRPAC Society gets their information from. We are not served very well by the directors. Maybe the City will finally step up and take this project seriously.

In summary:

We are totally underselling ourselves. Why should someone ask us to provide $12million (25%) from private funds for a $48 million cultural building when no other city has been asked to provide such a huge percentage. Cities like St. Catharines only require $5million of a $60million project which is 12% of the cost of the building.

Not only that, but it is being raised as the building is being built. That is the norm.

Quesnel got stuck with the same uninformed mindset of hinterland dwellers.

I just took a look at the PGRPAC Society’s web page.
http://www.pgperformingarts.ca/downloads.html

They have the original reports from 2008 on there, but none of the later reports which deal with more specific building design proposal nor the updated operations report(s).

Why? What have they been doing? What are they hiding, other than the sites. Have they been told by the City they cannot publish them? Actually one of them has been identified from the recent interview with the new chair – the same site as the WDIC building is now being built on. Surprise, surprise.

As someone said on the radio a couple of days ago, the four seasons pool is nearing the end of its economic lifetime. That is the appropriate site for the PAC. Give College Heights the swimming pool it was “promised” at amalgamation some 40 years ago.

Read the Physical and Business Plan Report, specifically page B-3 and B-4 which indicate the operating funds required from local government would be $350,000 in the first year of operation, moving up to $400,000 and inflationary increases after that.

Why are they using $300,000 now? Where are the savings coming from? Both are “credible” consultants. In fact, both have been used to put together the new Lethbridge PAC proposal.

Who to believe? I do not envy Beth James her work on this one and so many other areas that need fix badly!

Lethbirdge you say? Yes. I realize they already have one, but the community has grown out of that centre which is as old as Vanier Hall

http://www.lethbridge.ca/living-here/Projects-Initiatives/Pages/New-Performing-Arts-Centre-CIP2014-2023.aspx

950 Alberta sized seats plus a 240 seat multi- purpose space … Black box.

Total estimated cost for 2014-2017 window is ​$59,950,000.

Would be ashamed if the feds give them money and not PG. Our federal taxes we pay from here would once more go to another community.