All you people that said “yes” will also be the ones complaining about higher prices for stuff.

It’s a vicious cycle isn’t it Chevy2000 but apparently it keeps the economy going!

The gain is lost soon enough and we are back where we started.

There must be a lot of minimum wage people who read this site.

25 cents every 4 months until it hits $13.00. Than everyone can adjust in a timely fashion. the employer, the consumer.

give them a twenty dollar raise, doesn’t matter. Putin is going to take over the northern islands of Canada, than the Russians and americans are going to fight and we are going to be a war torn country anyway. End of the world…. LOL

The PG Chamber of Commerce’s opinion is, of course, very biased. Ask the minimum wage earner and their opinion would be the opposite.

What “keeps the economy going” when the minimum wage is raised is a larger increase in overall personal DEBT.

Since less of the increase will go towards paying existing debts down than providing a perception still more new debt can be rung up.

It is truly a vicious cycle, because it puts us all on a faster treadmill to nowhere, except ever increasing overall indebtedness. Til it collapses in another recession, with all the attendant misery that brings.

This new, larger debt becomes ever more difficult to repay as the incentive for businesses to automate and outsource as much ‘work’ as possible “to keep costs down” accelerates. While the major present source of its repayment in total, consumer’s incomes from employment, continue to fall as more and more people are displaced from that employment.

The BC Fed is doing ‘working people’ a great dis-service in their continual push for higher wages. They could do far more good by agitating instead for lower prices.

For with every advance in technology leading to greater efficiency, the actual costs of producing anything are FALLING in respect to the amount of labor needed to do the same job before that advance.

But we are NEVER currently FULLY ‘credited’ with this ‘appreciation’ of productive capacity, even if some do manage to get higher wages because of it, though their overall number still employed will be fewer, too.

Though we’re always fully ‘debited’ for it through ‘depreciation’ charges on it, allocated into every price of every product we buy.

Surely it must be clear, even to the BC Fed, that if a “machine” will do the work of 100 men, and is put in and does just that, that doesn’t do anyone any good unless that “machine” can also pay 100 men’s wages.

For “machines” don’t CONSUME their own production. Only human beings can do that. And if their only income is from ’employment’, and more and more continued to be displaced from it, just HOW are they going to do that?

chevy: “All you people that said “yes” will also be the ones complaining about higher prices for stuff.”

Of course they will. They make no connection between the two.

In an “ideal world”:
Wages and prices would freeze.
The only increase you would get from work is by way of promotion and increased responsibility
Rents and leases would not increase
Utilities, interest rates, and taxes would not increase
Values of homes cars boats would decrease with wear and tear. If maintained would not decrease.
Gov’t would have fixed rates for staff (as if)
Medical costs and drugs would be fixed
No country would borrow from another country
Credit would be limited to a 35% debt/income ratio maximum 45% Gross debt/service ratio
AND —–Above all! Taxes would not increase! That is your worst offender!

If we had wage and price freeze, why would there have to be interest on anything? Interest is real money made out of fake money and only contributes to debt, so interest should be abolished as well. Now all the reagonomicites on here would say that is lefty pinko talk, but the other way certainly isn’t helping rid the world of poverty from what I can see.

Good thing the ndp are not in. We would have the $13.00 raise, and a lot of small businesses would close their doors.

Sure would have to sell a lot of donuts to justify $13 bucks an hour. Why not just lower taxes on that $13 bucks instead?

if utilities stopped going up we would not have to increase min wage!! they go up for no reason other than to increase profits for the super rich. just think how much you paid for hydro, gas, city utilities and property taxes 10 years ago and how much those things have gone up in that time, but I bet your wage has not increased at the same rate!

Harbinger, those currently working at the minimum wage likely pay very little if anything in the way of income taxes. They are also likely to receive full premium subsidy for their BC Medical Premiums.

Boudicca, during the recent City Worker’s contract negotiations, it was clearly evident that one of the largest costs to the City was the cost of Wages and Benefits for it’s employees.

So, how can you and why are you blaming the super rich for the increases in our city utilities and property taxes? Over the 5 year term of our municipal worker’s last contract, they enjoyed wage increases that were double the rate of inflation!! Do you not think that this increase of 16% over the past 5 year term had any effect on your utility and tax bills??

…and Boudicca, speaking of utilities, there was a lot of press over the past few months regarding both the increase in staffing numbers and the excessive wages paid to the staff at BC Hydro!

Are City Workers and BC Hydro workers the “super rich” that you speak of??

Raising the minimum wage to $13.00 per hour would definitely put a dent in the 18.6% child poverty rate here in BC.

…until they raise the child poverty bar in conjunction.

Child poverty, of course, there in poerty, maybe they should look at getting a job then. LOL

So they raise the minimum wage, than the welfare people will start complaining they need more money.

Maybe if they raised the minimum wage more welfare people would get a job.

If you go to work full time, then you should be paid enough not to be in the poverty income bracket. If it means a business is no longer viable then so be it. I don’t think a business should be subsidized by poverty wages. If people earn a liveable income then we have more people able to spend money at businesses that do have progressive business models.

The biggest fallacy is that of the trickle down fallacy. Henry Ford had it right when he proposed his responsibility to the middle class made more business sense, than the top down model of exploiting cheep labor. Ironically Ford was the only one of the big three that didn’t require a government bailout when the 2008 bubble burst. There is something to be said about a good business plan that doesn’t involve exploitation.

Eagle: “If you go to work full time, then you should be paid enough not to be in the poverty income bracket. If it means a business is no longer viable then so be it.”

Anyone else see the hole in logic here?

So lets see a coffee shop pays an employee poverty rate of $10.50 an hour or a livible wage of $13 an hour….

Total cost as a percentage of the hypothetical $1 cup of coffee….

Overhead for building 50%
Utility bills 20%
Franchise fee 10%
materials ingredients ect 10%
Wages 10% then increased by 20% to 12%

So the total cost to the cup of coffee is not 20% of $1 for a new total cost of $1.20 per cup for a 20% pay increase, but rather 20% of 10% for a new total cost of $1.02 per cup of coffee. Hardly something that would break the business.

My .02 cents goes towards paying the person behind the till a livable wage as its not going to break the bank.

————-

That is the reality. In trucking when fuel goes up 20% a trucking company would go out of business if they tried to sell the idea that would have to have a 20% surcharge to cover the extra fuel cost… some do get away with it though lol… but the reality is that fuel is maybe 35% of the cost so a 20% increase in fuel is really only a 7% increase in total cost and therefore the fuel surcharge should only be 7% and not the 20% increase one is paying for fuel.

IMO its about understanding the dynamics of management accounting. those that don’t understand it don’t deserve to be in business, and those that do will always know their true cost and the true value their employees bring to the business.

So the hole in the logic is that you do not understand management accounting practices for the true cost of a livable wage Johnny?

Please explain.

Don’t forget that the employer pays approx. 30% more in EI, CPP, WCB, vacation pay and benefits on top of the wages.

Land prices doubled in 5-years and yet new restaurants open every day… ditto for other costs that make up the total costs other than labor. So what’s the big deal about paying someone a poverty rate a few more dollars to lift them out of poverty at a much smaller total percentage than the other costs that have all gone up?

When is the last time the Chamber of Commerce cried chicken little over the huge increases in land, or utilities, or other inputs into the business other than labor that also make up significant costs?

So 30% more on 2% extra total cost… what is that 2.6% extra in the grand scheme of things… a small cost for a livable wage.

So Eagleone, you own and operate a small business?? So you know what you are talking about, right??

Hart guy do you have a management accounting background? Do you understand how an operating budget works? Please explain the faulty logic? How are your math skills?

“So what’s the big deal about paying someone a poverty rate a few more dollars to lift them out of poverty at a much smaller total percentage than the other costs that have all gone up?”

Same logic the city uses with tax increases and service fees – its a small percentage, whats the big deal?

“If people earn a liveable income” .. do you think $13.00/hr is a livable income in this province? Maybe if you are single and live in a bachelor suite somewhere and never go out. The bottom line is, these wages were never meant to be a “livable income”. There should be help out there for people who truly want to put in the effort it takes to get themselves into a better paying job, not enable a dead end job, which is what increasing minimum wage does.

Its not the same interceptor. City workers are not already paid at a poverty rate. Also the city budget is primarily wages, so a small wage increase is reflected almost on par in the operating budget. The same argument does not hold for someone that is already making a union wage, or an even high management salary. Its about lifting up and not widening the divide.

“More people with jobs are relying on food banks despite an 8.5 per cent drop in overall use, says the Canadian Association of Food Banks.

According to the group’s HungerCount 2006 report released on Tuesday, the percentage of food bank clients who are working is 13.4 per cent, up from 13.1 per cent last year.

The survey says the “working poor” continue to comprise the second largest group of food bank clients after social assistance recipients, who account for 53.5 per cent of clients across the country.

“People like you and I, people working, can’t manage to feed their families,” said CAFB executive director Charles Seiden.

“Low wages may be only one of several factors contributing to the working poor phenomenon in Canada. But the fact that real wages in the country have not improved over the last several years tells us that our leaders have neglected the country’s labour rights and standards.”

The study also showed children account for 41 per cent of the estimated 753,458 food bank clients, although they make up only about a quarter of the country’s population.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/more-working-poor-using-food-banks-study-1.581945

Good response Eagleone.

Actually Eagleone, without trying to pat myself on the back, my post-secondary major was originally going to be in accounting. However, with hard work and extra studies, I was able to graduate with a second major in marketing. Both were obtained at the same time, in the period of time that most only obtain one or the other and not both!

I achieved this through hard work and many, many hours of study. A small sacrifice in order to get ahead! My parents taught me that if I wanted more out of life than a minimum wage job and lifestyle, I would need to apply myself to my work and my education!

So yes to your question, I have a management accounting background and I understand operating budgets. By the way, my math skills are just fine!

You didn’t answer my original question? Do you own and operate a small business?

Begins to lose debate with a useless and irrelevant reference to city workers, goes back to personal comments again.

Peeps, personal attacks again? Thanks!!

While Hart. What can I say if you have not one but two degrees, and yet you still can not understand the basic management accounting mathematics that underline my argument. Where do you work again? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Basically 90% of the courses one would take to get ‘both degree’s overlap, so getting that second degree in business is not as big a stretch of ‘hard work’ and book smarts as you let on. But congratulations on being book smart, and not so much real world smart. I bet those pieces of paper really impress your clients. At least the marketing degree can help you to sell the fact you don’t really understand the basics of management accounting.

So should we pee on each others parade or did you have a point you wanted to make other than to show you have little understanding of cost accounting?

I still haven’t heard with all your book smarts where the fault is. Are you saying that a 20% increase in the wage of a minimum wage worker will translate to a 20% increase in the total cost of a business? If so you fail. Sorry but your answer is wrong for almost any business that has other overhead costs other than just pure labor. Twist it how you may but you are just digging a hole and throwing the dirt on top of yourself. All I can say is go and read a book, maybe one that involves the degree you claim to have.

The facts are that labor is but a component cost of any business and and increase in that component can be relatively small in the total expense scheme of things when factored up against other things like building, utilities, and even management pay… considering the small amount a below poverty worker making minimum wages makes.

Don’t you have cats to torcher or something? Where do you work again Hart Guy? I hope its not the SPCA.

Eagle: “So the hole in the logic is that you do not understand management accounting practices for the true cost of a livable wage Johnny?

Please explain.”

It appears you are the one who doesn’t understand. All increases in costs are passed to the consumer, including minimum wage earners, meaning they are not getting any further ahead. Wages and benefits/perks are huge components of any business.

As someone noted earlier, a better suggestion would be to reduce taxation of those minimum wage earners so they can take home more money after deductions.

Also, if wage increases cause businesses to go under (or move to more favourable jurisdictions), everybody loses.

I conceived, designed, and implemented a new business start-up that had never before been tried in Northern BC. It transformed the manufacturing industry with innovative technology that had never before been tried at the scale I went with in North America (at that time), and despite the partners I had it is still ticking along to this day more than ten years later, just as I had left it.

I would never think of paying someone a poverty rate to make a business plan work. If that is what it took to stay in business I would innovate and bring more value to my product, and that is the way it should be… maybe just my philosophy and not yours, but to each their own.

If Hart Guy is such a smart guy he should be able to figure out the rest.

Been doing some research about New Zealand, where the current minimum wage is $13.75 per hour. Their minimum wage is set to go up to $14.25 this April 1st, 2014.

At any rate, $13.75 is a fairly generous minimum wage for say MacDonald’s workers. So how has that high minimum wage affected MacDonald’s prices in New Zealand?

A Big Mac cost $5.20, a Quarter Pounder costs $4.90 and a cheeseburger costs $2.30.
So much for those mythical sky high prices!

So much unfounded fear coming from the other side of this minimum wage debate, yet so little FACTS!

Oh good lord Johhny. Is that your argument. So, if we all go back to working for $5 an hour than we can all afford to live a good life? Is that really your argument to keep people working for a poverty rate?

And Johnny, what is this nonesense that if we just lower the taxation rates for those in poverty if would help them out more. What taxes are those Johhny… please tell… poverty rate already doesn’t pay income taxes, negligible if any especially if they have a family to feed… you know the 45% children who get their dinner from the food bank. weren’t you the guy that champions the regressive tax (user pay model) the guy that was all pro-HST and what not.

So what is it Johnny, lower their taxes (the regressive ones because that is all they pay), or pay them less. What is your solution to poverty of the working poor? I suspect its obviate and obfuscate any real solution, so as to render your haughty level of supremacy above those that are deemed unworthy of a dignified lifestyle… unless of course they are willing to support a pipeline, then they are worthy of your praise.

I do not think a business will fold up shop and leave Canada over a 2% increase in its total cost. If all workers make a living wage and have disposable income every business benefits from more customers.

If it was the case that only a few should have disposable income and the rest work for peanuts, then we would have no middle class and with that we would have no real democracy or the rights that come with it.

Large corporations have had the large tax cuts, but have not invested that back in livable pay rates. That is the real issue here.

Well good for you Eagleone! You conceived, designed and implemented a new business start-up. And as you say, despite the partners you had, even though you left it ten years ago, it is still ticking along to this day!

So, whose running the show? The partners that you left? Leaves me wondering if the business is still ticking along BECAUSE you left it!

I’m also wondering what you meant by questioning if I have cats to torcher. I could torture myself over the meaning of your questing but aside from the fact that this comment is rather pathetic, perhaps you meant something else or perhaps you simply made a small spelling mistake or used a word out of context? Please explain what you meant by your question.

Eagleone, upon reflection I am of the opinion that your comment “Don’t you have cats to torcher or something? Where do you work again Hart Guy? I hope its not the SPCA.” clearly crosses the line!

While I certainly enjoy taking other posters to task and am more than willing to engage in debate and even poke fun at others on occasion, clearly your derogatory suggestion is worthy of an apology!

Perhaps with respect to comments on this site, your intention was to lower the bar to a level not yet seen on this site. It that was your intention, then I would like to be the first to congratulate you on succeeding!

Eagleone, we are wasting our time trying to debate the pros and cons of increasing minimum wage with these guys. Present them with all the relevant facts and information, and they respond with hurt feelings and other personal comments.

Read through Hart Guy’s last two comments… any reference to minimum wage? The same pattern emerges that I mentioned the other day, then it degrades into name calling. It’s their modus operandi, same old, same old.

Oh Peeps, but I simply must reply to your drivel!

You have already advised us that you have two energy consuming computers, this in spite of the fact that your increased energy consumption is contributing to global warming, oops I mean climate change. That’s the term we are using now, right??

You suggest that your are wasting your time trying to debate the pros and cons? This is hilarious considering that you haven’t had an original thought in all of the time that you’ve been posting on this site. It seems like your idea of debate is to sit in front of your two computers, one logged onto this site while furiously googling the other one for information on the topic of the day. For your information, googling the topic of the day does NOT make you an expert on the topic of the day, nor does your ability to cut and paste, copy and edit and post links to webpages.

For crying out loud Peeps, have an original thought once in a while. You might end up being wrong, but that’s definitely more worthy of our respect than cutting, pasting or posting someone else’s thoughts or ideas!

Trying to debate the pros and cons? Would you be able to debate anything, anything at all if you didn’t have your second computer to search the web for your answers?? Highly doubtful I suggest, as that is your modus operandi!

Eagleone’s comment regarding cats to torcher (?) was rude, insulting and extremely uncalled for and yet you criticize my modus operandi?? That’s awful pathetic of you Peeps!!

…cats to torcher? Umm… you do mean “torture” right? o_O

Whew, well at least we are no longer on the minimum wage topic, which you know nothing about, and we are back in the more personal commenting place where your ignorance, and lack of knowledge becomes less apparent.

As far as me cutting and pasting, I merely present the facts and the truths, and state my sources, this is what separates my comments from just my opinions. Can’t get anywhere debating opinion, but we can become more knowledgeable and aware about subjects and issues if we research and debate the facts and truths around current events.

Time to wake up sheeple!!!

Oh Peeps, you are so hilarious!

If you had taken the time to read my posts, you would know that I was referring to Eagleone’s use of the word torcher. And yet, you mistakenly attribute the use of the word to me, as if to attack my intelligence! Is that the best that you can do?

With regards to your presentation of the facts and truths, you have been shown to present otherwise. In fact, it wasn’t that long ago that someone on this site kicked your butt from here to Sunday. At that point in time, it looked like you would be leaving us for good! Promises, promises! And yet, here you still are, presenting your versions of “facts and the truths”!

The facts and truths are that on numerous occasions, I have pointed out to you that I consider you to be the biggest bully on this site. The facts and truths are that in the past I have called you on comments that you have made, suggesting that you owed an apology to the individuals that you directed your comments towards.

Debate the facts and truths around current events? That’s not likely to happen when you think that the only opinion that matters is your own!

Time to wake up Peeps!!

There, I posted that twice for you Peeps! in the hope that you might actually read one of them before offering your illustrious opinion!

Peeps: “Present them with all the relevant facts and information, and they respond with hurt feelings and other personal comments.”

I think this is the definition of irony.

“I do not think a business will fold up shop and leave Canada over a 2% increase in its total cost.”

Considering the ridiculous and erroneous way you calculated this, I see no point in continuing the conversation further. I can see now why you bailed out of your last business. It clearly was over your head.

JohnnyBelt, I took Peeps advice and did some research on the internet. You wouldn’t believe what I found:

https://www.marshmallowpeeps.com/

This explains why Peeps is all puffed up with no real substance inside, just a bunch of hot air!

Posted by: Krusty on February 28 2014 4:56 PM

Wow, Seamut, you must have started in on the sauce early this Friday.
And as usual, others (JB, for example) have weather and climate confused.
People #1 typically provides far more actual information, data, and links than almost anyone (Gus’ rants don’t count) yet he/she is constantly being dissed by the red-around-the-collar set for whom no fact will suffice.

Thank you Krusty.

I had logged back on because upon reflection I thought maybe I was hard on that Hart Guy. I never met him before maybe he is a smart guy that likes cats and just comes off wrong. Maybe my spelling is bad sometimes lol.

But I think peoples is right about the inability to debate without the derogatory indignation that Hart Guy exhibits. Now I just think if the shoe fits. Where do you work again Hart Guy? Oh, and how is that relevant to the topic again? Should we just speculate based on the known knowns, and the unknown unknowns, or should we listen to our parents more often?

I would like to add that I am sorry for commenting on the comments of another poster and getting drawn into a series of no good questions that are designed to impinge ones character. That is normally something I try to avoid, and will try to avoid in the future. The SPCA comment was about lowering myself to a level of debate that doesn’t accomplish much and makes all around look bad.

Cheers

Good ole JB and HG never raising the level of discussion and debate on this news blog site, only lowering it to the lowest of common denominators; that of petty and personal attacks!

Eagleone, in the past I have indicated that I am a business owner.

I have first hand knowledge of minimum wage as I have worked for minimum wage. I’ve even worked for free in order to prove my worth to obtain a job!

I am not the most intelligent person that you will ever meet, but I am certainly not the least intelligent.

Cats? I’m not really a fan. I much prefer dogs.

So, while I won’t ask you where you work, I will ask you if you do work and how it is relevant to the topic?

You have questioned my math skills. That puzzles me because I have a problem with yours. With regards to costs for your hypothetical $1.00 cup of coffee, you have assumed a number of percentages:

Overhead for building 50%
Utility bills 20%
Franchise fee 10%
materials ingredients etc 10%
Wages 10% then increased by 20% to 12%

It’s interesting that your figures add up to 100% and then increase to 102% and yet no where do you indicate a percentage for profit. Even before allocating your wage increase, you didn’t allocate anything for profit.

and Peeps, speaking of petty and personal attacks, I have never lowered the level of discussion and debate to the level that your friend Eagleone reached this evening with his “cats to torcher” comment!

Your failure to point this out to Eagleone suggests to me that you are comfortable with petty and personal attacks and low common denominators.

Take a moment to think about that!!

Yeah, what ever… I am still waiting for someone to raise the level of debate back to the subject of “Minimum Wages”, but I see there are no takers. Discussion thread dead.

Minimum wage remained the same from 2001 until 2013.

What else did? Groceries? Power bills? Transportation? Fuel? Heating fuel? Anything?

Thanks for your intelligent and insightful comment my2bits, a reason why BC has had the highest child poverty rate in Canada for most all of those 12 years?