That appears to be quite the down-sizing. How much was the previous version to cost?

Aside from the money, this is a much more reasonable design since it does not reduce the amount of gathering space by a significant area.

Of course, now I look at that and wonder what is costing all that money. I suppose the entire area, other than the ice rink is going to be repaved. I did not notice that it needed to be.

Has anyone ever wondered why the stage is set up on the west side, so that the only fixed seats are rendered “useless” and everyone can watch people go in and out of the washrooms?

I see that they’ve kept the roadway through it in this last drawing. That is good but it should be enforced as a one way. It is still a very small venue though for anything of importance.

I’m not sure why they announce this part, “The total funding for the project is at $944,633.00″ before asking for tenders. What they should do is say, ‘Here’s what we want, give us your quote.” and work from there. This is like saying, “We have $345,000 dollars for a core review. We have no idea what a core review is but hey, KPMG, how much would it cost us for you to do a core review for us?” :)

Providing budget prices has been the practice for all of my time associated with the building industry which goes back many decades.

The bids are still competitive.

It gives companies an idea of whether they might be interested in bidding so that they do not have to go to the construction association to see plans if the scope is not for their type of project.

The group that is most often embarrassed are the designers or quantity surveyors who indicate the construction cost.

Remember it is identified as “project” money, not “construction” money. With the number of iterations that the design has gone through, I suspect the design/management fee is comparatively high in relation to the construction cost.

haha…..I’m just about rolling on the floor laughing….

Did someone from the City give us the “current” situation at the Civic Plaza……????

What are the changes I ask. It say it looks like that now!!!

So what exactly are we getting for $1M? If I’m the customer, oh wait we are, then I would like to see a detailed list of what we should get for $1M. It better say more than 2 trees and a couple of gallons of paint!!

Sorry to say but that drawing above is not impressive at all. Is this the PG games or is it the Canada games? Is there even a podium for the winners to stand on? Maybe they need to bring their own.

Posted by: gus on April 15 2014 6:44 AM
Providing budget prices has been the practice for all of my time associated with the building industry which goes back many decades.

The bids are still competitive.

——–

Maybe it’s time to change that way of conducting business. I have to wonder if they’re truly competitive or are they all just around the dollar value of the announced budget?

It will be covered in snow during the games.. What a waste of our money.

Time to head to work and dodge all the potholes.

I use to bid on jobs for the City and I never saw the money that the City had to spend. That was one complaint we had as we would have to spend a lot of time putting a bid together only to find out that all bids were over the amount that the City had for a budget. Sometimes they would hint/wink at a amount like maybe “around 750k-800k” but never $944,633.00 as they always wanted the bids to come in way below what they had to spend.

I use to bid on jobs for the City and I never saw the money that the City had to spend. That was one complaint we had as we would have to spend a lot of time putting a bid together only to find out that all bids were over the amount that the City had for a budget. Sometimes they would hint/wink at a amount like maybe “around 750k-800k” but never $944,633.00 as they always wanted the bids to come in way below what they had to spend.

This is a total waste of tax payers money.

The people attending the Winter Games will hit Prince George like a posse of Kansas Jawhawkers, and in two weeks they will be gone. In four weeks no one will even know they were in town.

The Civic Centre Plaza could use a little uplift, however it certainly doesn’t warrant this kind of expenditure.

My understanding is that the buildings across from City Hall ie; Norgate, Ed Delorme, etc will be razed and they will build an area to hand out the medals at that location. (Just a rumour at this point). So if this is true, it could account for the downsizing of the original Plaza Plan.

Either way a waste of money.

Pretty sure the land of the old Norgate and Ed Delorme will be the site of the new PAC. However, it will be an excellent excuse to knock it down and build a podium set up to hand out medals.

Graymare and Gus, the best way to get the best value, is to let independent contractors price out the project based on the same scope of work.

axman, you are allowed for you opinion, but if you own your own contracting business, you will soon realize you make 0% on 100% of work you don’t get. That is what drives competitive bidding on the same scope of work.

“I use to bid on jobs for the City and I never saw the money that the City had to spend.”

I guess you never attended Council meetings or read the papers, or called up the City to find out the scope of the project in terms of budget or never read the Journal of Commerce of provincial projects list. That paper calls up owners, engineers and architects all the time to find out what new projects are going on, what stage existing projects on the drawing boards are at, what the expected cost is, what the size of the building is, etc.

“we would have to spend a lot of time putting a bid together only to find out that all bids were over the amount that the City had for a budget”

They still can be that. Or they could all be under the budget.

BTW, what do you think the actual construction budget is, because the money shown is the total project budget. Do you know what is included in the total project budget? I do not. But it could probably be found out.

I co not think you were one of the larger contractors – Viking, Crossroads, etc.

We wanted them to know and they wanted to know. We needed them to bid on projects because only when we got 5 or more active bidders could we get good competitive pricing.

If we said no to everything, We wouldn’t have a WHL team, we wouldn’t have a 5500 seat hockey rink, If we said no to the Canada Games, we wouldn’t have a beautiful Kin 1. If we said no to the BC summer games, we wouldn’t have Massey Stadium.

The whole name of the game is the multiplier factor. We typically put up a million dollars, the province and the feds put up two million dollars. That is how we improve our lives in this gritty little mill town. Does the city loose out, no, we gain. Does the province and feds loose out, no they collect income tax from having people working on these capital projects.

Have a look at the major projects list for the province. Lists are by economic regions.

This one is till on there. That means that whenever they phone up they get the response that there has been no change rather than the project has been cancelled.

Coast Hotel Expansion
Coast Hotels and Resorts Inc.
Ph: (250) 561-7600 (Prince George City)
Proposed 75 room addition to the Coast Hotel’s existing property.
Status: Proposed Start: ?
Est. Cost ($ million): 15 Finish: ?
First Entry: Dec 2006 Last Update: Dec 2013
Project ID: 1885

http://www.jtst.gov.bc.ca/ministry/major_projects_inventory/index.htm
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Hotel Development

0926100 BC Ltd. Ph: (250) 561-7614 (Prince George City)

156 room hotel development will include 35 condominium units and a 5,500 sq ft conference centre. The 12-storey project is located at 1355 10th Ave.

Status: Proposed Start: Spring 2014
Est. Cost ($ million): 40
Finish: Summer 2014
First Entry: Jun 2012
Last Update: Dec 2013
Project ID: 2979

Posted by: He spoke on April 15 2014 9:14 AM

axman, you are allowed for you opinion, but if you own your own contracting business, you will soon realize you make 0% on 100% of work you don’t get. That is what drives competitive bidding on the same scope of work.

————–

Huh? Here’s the scope of the project; if you want the project submit a bid and we’ll see if you get it. Or, here’s our budget; tell us what you can do for that and if we prefer your proposal the job’s yours.

axman, you fail to understand its not that subjective of a decision on who gets the contract. Its strictly about being the lowest bidder on a lump sum contract.

When I hear the budget #, it has no bearing on the number I submit. If there Number seems unrealistic, I roll up the drawings and not to waste my time on the project. If the drawings are weak in its design elements and or have stupid clauses, it gets rolled up and some other contractor can do it. I rather spend time and effort on bidding on projects with realistic budgets and attainable scopes of work.

I think the city of Prince George has a serious problem. we need to get more hotel rooms available to rent.

The one downtown, in which the developer was given a golden opportunity and city flushed the project thru, now it sits quiet on the site for the past two months.

The one infront of the CN center, That project failed to even get out of the ground.

I think the Winter Games are soon going to be looking for Billeters.

Gus is almost over his limit per article :)

Are people aware the council voted last night to review their pay on recommendations from the Finance Committee.

It is legislated to be completed every three years.

So look for an increase coming to your area for Jan 1/2015

He Spoke. We may have a 5500 seat hockey rink and the CN Centre, however it is losing money because its not being supported by the fans. Average fan attendance for 36 home games 1600.

We may have a new Kin Centre, which is great for those who use it but it costs us millions of dollars. We paid (or will pay) an additional $15 Million in taxes for the Winter Games, so it doesn’t come cheap. For most people in Prince George we will get diddley squat for this expenditure. It is documented fact that the people who make money on these games are restaurants, hotels, and bars. Commercial business actually lose money.

I suspect that the reason they will use the Norgate property to make the Winter Games presentation is that they can raze the buildings, and clear the property under the budget of the winter games, or some other budget, thus reducing the actual cost of the PAC. It would not be the first time that they have done this budget switcheroo. The Cameron St. Bridge comes to mind.

I am not against all the money spent on these facilities, however it would be nice if the citizens of Prince George got off their collective asses and used the facilities. The more use, the less cost to taxpayers. Comprenday???

Axman wrote: “Here’s the scope of the project; if you want the project submit a bid and we’ll see if you get it.”

That is called lump sum bid, which it looks like the plaza will be built under since there is a design there and there will be working drawings and specification generated from that.

” Or, here’s our budget; tell us what you can do for that and if we prefer your proposal the job’s yours.”

That is called request for proposal or RFP. Typically done through a consortium of designer and builder where the decision by the owner is based on several selection criteria such as price, design, firm experience, project manager experience, time to completion, etc.

The two are totally different approaches. The first one is very objective while the second one looks objective, but typically it is not.

I think the lack of ticket sales for the cougars is simply a protest against the Brodsky’s. Once they are out of here, the sales will jump 2000 seats. To an average of 3600 fans. This will continue to grow as the team improves. This town is fickle that way.

Look at the big picture people.

The games, winter or summer, can leave a legacy. People all over Canada see PG as a city that has high crime and a unfavorable place to live. Living here you can either choose to believe it, or try and change it.

If Thousands of people come here and see everything this city has to offer they will spread the word. If we are hospitable, friendly, capable… they will spread the word.

You can see what the games have done for cities, specifically Kamloops, beautiful facilities that are still being used today. Without the Summer games, Kamloops most likely does not have the Tournament Capital Center. Without the TCC, they do not host the BC Lions training camp each year. Without the BC Lions training camp they miss out on the massive influx of people from all over north America who spend…spend..spend.

So you see these games go much deeper than whats on the surface. I for one will gladly pay a little more on my taxes for the National recognition PG will get.

In addition, to my comment about the cougar and fan support. The rink needs more than just a WHL team to support it. If the WHL team makes two rounds of play off that is only 40 nights. They still have 325 available nights and days to fill it with revenue events. So the idea that the CN Center is loosing money because of the Cougars attendance is not the only factor at play.

It may be true that the Cougars lack of being a revenue source for the facility may contribute to this, but perhaps the lack of creativeness from the administration of the facility may also contribute to this problem.

Is CN Center loosing money on the operating side????? Overall, it will never recover the capital investment, but as a tax payer, I would expect it to recover the operating costs.

I think the people managing CN Centre are doing a heck of a job booking shows and events. Someone is working their butt off and I think they should be commended for not only the quality of shows that come to PG, but the relative frequency with which they do. I think the way that CN Centre contributes to the city should be the least of people’s concerns.

OK, I don’t know if your in the know and they are not in the red, great, because it is too good of a facility to be loosing money at it.

I honestly don’t know if they are covering the operating costs or not He spoke. Unfortunately, I also don’t think the city provides this type of detailed reporting in their public reports.

Anecdotally, I don’t think most public venues like CN Centre actually do make money. I do, however, suspect they can get to the point where the annual subsidy is very tolerable given the qualitative payback to the city and its residents.

I’d hazard a guess that CN Centre requires far less of a subsidy than say the NSC, the swimming pools, the Kin Centres, the Civic Centre, etc.

It would actually be nice if the city reported on specific facility revenues and facility operating costs. Keep the capital costs out of it or at least use amortized costs for the capital component. Show the people of the city what it costs to operate these facilities, the revenues they bring in and the annual subsidy required to keep them going.

I think that would go a long way to show people what the true costs of having these facilities are. It would also be extremely useful for planning purposes and making decisions around user fee increases, strategies to increase resident use of facilities, etc. I would hope that the city has all of this info available and that their accounting systems can tell them this, but who knows.

Looks like no one was watching Global News last night. They told the story about the Heat which is costing the City millions of dollars a year, in addition to building them a $60 million dollar arena 5 years ago.

So, if we think we have it bad, consider Abbotsford. We should know more by tomorrow noon what is happening there.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1271141/city-of-abbotsford-terminating-contract-with-abbotsford-heat-hockey-team

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As to the idea that He spoke put forth that “If the WHL team makes two rounds of play off that is only 40 nights. They still have 325 available nights and days to fill it with revenue events” it is full of some big holes.

The prime season for touring acts works along with the normal theatre and indoor concert season which, in Canada and the USA is from mid September, after people are back to their winter routine, to sometime in April/May. After mid-April you can forget about college and university student attendance since they are back home or working wherever they can find a job.

So that means:
1.There are 8 to 9 months of prime season. The hockey season coincides with the primary touring show season.

2.Shows are booked a year and even longer ahead. So, it does not matter whether the team is in the playoffs or not, that part of the season has to stay booked for the Cougars unless some sweet deal can be made for big names such as Elton John.

3.For every booked night of a show, there has to be an additional day, and sometimes two to set up the stage, lighting, sound system, etc. and take down immediately after the show or else part or all of the next day. Even if it is part of the day, the next show cannot come in right afterwards in case something goes wrong.

4.When the ice is down, then it probably becomes difficult to have a show right before or after a hockey game. The Centre staff has to place the ice covering on and then remove it again after the game, in addition to cleaning the arena.

5.Both the Cougars as well as the visiting team require practice time on the ice. I do not know whether they use other surfaces in PG as well, or just the CN Centre ice. I think a good measure might be to count 80 days of hockey use for the 40 game at home schedule plus playoff contingency.

6.So, let us use 9 month @ 30 days each = 270 days. Hockey uses 80 of those (the agreement likely spells it out if someone has access to it) which is 30%. That leaves 70% for other uses.

7.If the Centre is to show a break even without paying back the capital cost, but the operating, including maintenance costs, then for every dollar that the Cougars do not pull their weight, the other users have to pay an additional dollar to subsidize hockey.

Thus, it is not an 11% to 89% split of access. It is actually more like a 30% to 70% split. Glen Michelson is the fellow that can put some more accurate figures in since he is the fellow who has made a huge change in the operations of the facility which caused some larger productions to come in.

This is how it works south of the border in the case of the NFL stadiums.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/how-the-nfl-fleeces-taxpayers/309448

I would expect Canada to be no different, nor other sports to be different, or small cities versus large cities to be different.

Spectator sport. Worse than fast food?

Million dollars for some trees and grass. Looks pretty typical of our city.