Let us go back to November 4, 1974 when he Amalgamation vote passed. The link is to the front page news story.

http://pgnewspapers.lib.pg.bc.ca/fedora/repository/pgc:1974-11-04-01

The estimated population of the larger city was 68,000. Nanaimo amalgamated at the same time for a city of 35,500.
40 years later, PG has about 72,000 while Nanaimo has about 84,000 with an area of 91km2. less than one third of the area of PG.

In the mid 1970s the City laid out plans for a road network to serve a community of around 150,000 to 200,000 by the year 2,000. That was the province’s unbelievable projection for this city.

One after another, planners followed those projections and planned road networks and builders followed after them. The City kept growing for a few more years, then slowed down and by 1981 it stopped dead in its tracks.

But no one made any adjustments. With the grand plans laid in front of them, everyone in the amalgamated areas wanted their slice of the pie.

While the University certainly played a part in stretching out the road network, in my opinion box stores played a much bigger part.

The move of the Bay from 3rd to Parkwood emptied the 3rd avenue shopping precinct, as did the Pine Centre.

But none were as devastating, in my mind, as the building of box store heaven. There were no box stores in 1974. The first significant one was Costco. Then came the others.

The Costco location was too small for additional large warehouses called stores. But the Catholic Church had plenty of land at a key intersection of Domano and Hwy 16W. Along came Canuck Tires moving from their small store on the bypass and building the biggest Canadian Tire in Canada at the time.

What we are starting to see is a satellite community with many of the amenities of a small city. In fact, that is exactly as was envisaged in the mid 1970s, but for an urban area of twice the current population.

The way we conduct retail trade these days was the driver, as was the residential density of the CH area and the easy highway access for regional shoppers beyond the city limits.

The predictions by some in 1974 of the City eventually going bankrupt were not that far off.

All that is left now is for PG to follow other communities which long ago built offices and higher density residential developments adjacent to or on top of older enclosed malls as well as adjacent to box store clusters. That too will happen should the city population begin to increase at more normal rates.

If we were growing at 1.5 to 2% per year, we would likely be seeing the expansion of the Riverview plaza at Ferry and HWY 16W being accompanied by high density housing along with some office spaces and a more pedestrian approach to the retail development. That is the new generation of neighbourhood cluster development.

What will happen to downtown? Who knows. Without a significant population growth, not much, especially with not visionaries in City Administration and City Council.

At the moment we may be seeing the normal reaction to signs of increased interest in the city after a hiatus of almost 4 decades, any development anywhere will be eagerly approved.

Are any of these satellite developments paying taxes at a higher rate than the main portion of the city, to support the extended infrastructure? Perhaps they should be.

I have been saying the same thing for years, Ben. I totally agree, some of the troubles we are having with maintaining roads and infrastructure are directly related to too much sprawl.

I sure hope City council is looking for ways to increase the density of this City and any plans to develop near the edge of City limits should be met with opposition. Let’s fill in the holes that cover the entire map of PG. Instead of just single family dwellings lets have some more multi-dwelling units.

Instead of clinging to the past with this idea of “heritage” homes that look like something from the hood……let’s clean up existing structures and make nicer ones. I know it’s not just the City that needs to do this, but also the residents. Well what’s stopping us? Let’s make PG something that we can be proud of!!!

Where is the line for a satellite development? I know I’m in one (you’ll have to pardon me for buying the house that worked best for my family), but it seems to me that these things started long before University Heights. You’ll be pleased to know that the snow removal in this area is the worst I’ve seen. So they are solving that problem somehow. Ha.

Didn’t the sprawl start up the Hart a Highway? Isn’t that a little town of its own up there? Every time I venture up that way I think of the Hart as another little town just up the road from PG. College Heights has worked out well! No one that lives up there or near there ever needs to go into the bowel! Free parking all over, restaurants all over and more being built! I heard Swiss Chalet and Montana’s are going to be built up there!

Wasn’t the old experiential farm another site for UNBC? A lot a room up there too!

The down town of PG is dying a slow death and nothing can stop it.

Why were intersection improvments with proper decel and turning lanes into and out of these new subdivisions not included on the developer’s dime. It is only a matter of time before a serious crash or two will highlight the need once the build out is complete with increased traffic on a two lane service road with narrow shoulders. Guess who will be left to pay?

As for sprawl, council is as much to blame as city staff. Not that long ago that they went against staff and let a development of acre lots in Blackburn proceed to next step.

Good point NoWay. Everybody points to the western development as the prime example of urban sprawl, but what about the Hart? No, there are no big box stores to the north of the City, but it’s pretty much the same thing, IMO.

dunno about anyone elses thoughts but I don’t think there is much room left within the city’s downtown and even central locations to build big box stores or a new neighbourhood. I get that urban sprawl development needs to be planned out better for a lot of towns, but developing on the outskirts isn’t a new process for any community. I don’t know what people expected would happen with Tyner Blvd and the little service road to UNBC in the 90s and 2000s but development is ideal in this day. And so is money, politics, procedure, and easy access because we have a lazy generation ahead…

Many people reflect back on what should’ve been done but don’t forget back then many of us young PG folk were kids, who also pay taxes nowadays, and had no say in how things went. Our parents did. Sometimes us young folks say “What the heck were they thinking?!” So they are ones responsible for how the city is today along with the political environment. Now us young folks can change that, for us and future generations just like the elders have done from past generations. I’m not saying our elders have no say in developing our city but they had that chance and yes still do as a tax payer but consider the distant future with yourself not being included. Sorry, that may seem harsh but many don’t and that’s reality. The new generation may ruin things, make things better and add to it just like our elders did and to me we get critized for doing things our own way instead of the way it was done in the 80s and 90s.

It’s time to let the younger folks develop the city along with our elders who have created PG as it is today, but sadly that won’t be happening anytime soon. College Heights is the place to build and is the new ‘downtown’ district and we be for many more years to come.

Oh and the younger folks is to those born in the late 70s to early 90s. Elders are those born before the 70s. That’s just how I look at it. :-)

While I agree with the concept of stopping urban sprawl, Ben says we could

“put another 50,000 people in PG and not notice it”.

I dispute that. The roads are busy already for most of the day. Add another 50,000 people and the bypass (HWY 97) would be complete gridlock all day.

An additional 50,000 people in the current city limits would add another 10 to 20 thousand cars on the road.

This would cause traffic equivalent to the lower mainland in all parts of the city. One of the reasons I live here is because of the lack of traffic.

If the population of the city were to change drastically, something drastic would have to be done about public transportation and something more drastic would have to be done to convince the public to use it.

Skytrain to Beaverly would save our environment and lower our carbon footprint.

Just why do universties get built out in the sticks anyhow? Uvic, UBC away from population centers. Simon Fraser on top of a mountain now that took a lot of thought. UNBC up a hill, yep not much thought there also. Subdivisions on Tyner with no turning lanes, just lower the speed limit. How long before the taxpayer will have to fork out upgrading Tyner for the developers? Got a nice yuppy walkway beside it. Just to add for those who hardly ever got their sidewalks plowed that yuppy walk got plowed after every snow flake.

Was it not mayor Backhouse who shot down the redevopment of downtown by a big developer getting Parkwood so called redeveloped instead?

This unsustainable expansion is still happening. A few weeks ago city council pushed forward with the expansion of a Blackburn subdividion against the recommendation of staff. This would require 2.5km of new roads and new sewer and water lines. On one hand we have the city crying for more investment from other levels of government to deal with the infrastructure deficit, while the othert hands is busy writing cheques it can’t cash:
http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/news/local/council-pushes-forward-with-blackburn-subdivision-plan-1.965397

No worries Harbinger the Chips trucks hauling hog from Isle Pierre to UNBC are saving the environment!

“Was it not mayor Backhouse who shot down the redevopment of downtown by a big developer getting Parkwood so called redeveloped instead?”

You are right, it was not. The Cadillac-Fairview proposal to demolish the Northern and four blocks with it became an election issue. Those on Council in favour of doing that lost their seat.

In fact, the developers would never have built it because the economy went sour and they withdrew their interest. The proposal for Parkwood never got built as intended either for the same reason.

Look at the existing Parkwood development. It has never had full occupancy. Businesses used to line up to get into Pine Centre, on the other hand.

The Amalgamation of Prince George with the outlying areas in 1974 was and is a complete failure.

However Pr George running true to form (the City that never admits failure) carries on with this inane idea of a huge area based City that requires taxing the s..t out of homeowners to provide all the services.

The idea of Amalgamation was primarily the Province’s, and they can take some responsibility for the failure.

My suggestion is that the Province should pay a portion of the cost of servicing the Amalgamated areas because they were the beneficiaries of the Amalgamation as it reduced Provincial Costs, and down loaded them on the City.

We should be compensated by the Province based on some sort of percentage of the population before and after Amalgamation.

“Just why do universties get built out in the sticks anyhow?”

Because they need land to grow.

There are a few centre-city universities such as U of T, U of O, Queens, McGill. They grow up instead of out and they add satellite campuses of their own. New Universities get built where there is lots of land – Carleton University, Lakehead, Lethbridge, York, Trent, etc. Look at the dates when they were established. Most of those are before 1900 when they were on the outskirts of the centre of the city. UBC is probably one of the first ones to build that far away from the city centre.

The thing is, many of those others are closer to the centre of the city because the cities have grown around them over half a century, a century and a half, and even over three centuries for Canada’s oldest university.

Université Laval was founded in 1663, chartered in 1852
I believe UNB is the oldest English speaking university in Canada. The Fredericton campus was established in 1785, chartered in 1827.

One could have taken the area to the east of Queensway from 1st avenue to Patricia, or the Carrie Jane Gray Park area and used it for a university.

The existing University within the loop road and the associated parking as well as Sports Centre would have had a struggle to fit into those potential sites. The university would have had to grow up instead of out and would have been severely restricted for any reasonable future growth for the next 100 years or 200 years for future interests such as research parks and residential developments such as exist on the UNBC endowment lands.

Remember, we are not talking about police stations here, we are talking about universities which are probably the longest established organizations we have.

“The idea of Amalgamation was primarily the Province’s, and they can take some responsibility for the failure.”

Correct. And it continues to be a provincial responsibility. Cities are a creature of the province. If the province thinks it sees inefficiencies in city government, it will take steps to try to get rid of it. See the Greater Toronto Area, the Greater Ottawa Area as current examples.

College Heights grew up on its own outside the City of PG. The regional district allowed it to grow as it did when it did not have the capacity to manage such a large development without an incorporated government entity. The same with the Hart and other outlying areas. They needed to be incorporated as separate entities eventually or get attached to the central City. That fight is going on in the GVRD and most other cities with independent satellite communities around them.

Anyone who thinks that the footprint of this area would have looked drastically different from what it looks like right now if amalgamation had not taken place is smoking something that is not quite legal yet. :-)

From October 1974, pre amalgamation

The West – the cost of rural freedom.

http://pgnewspapers.lib.pg.bc.ca/fedora/repository/pgc:1974-10-25-17

If you’re not happy about what has happened to the City over the past few years, just wait until November and we can elect a bunch of new people and see what their visions of the City and its development are.

No I don’t agree Gus at the time these universities where built there was a lot of accessible land closer to population centres. Simon Fraser during and after a snowstorm not a plow or sander in site. Took me four hours just to get down the mountain one day.

When the amalgamation happened there were many owners who did not want to join. There are still owners who wish they did not join.
No water, now sewer, Road clearing happens on the average 3 times a year for winter. Grading of gravel roads if lucky 3 times a year. As for cuttings of ditches every 2nd year if lucky. There was no benefit for most of the owners that had to amalgamate – only headaches.

Did not Haldi area not want to return to Regional District? I would not count that one out yet. Seems to me they have received very little from the city since……

The City of Prince George was the (short term) beneficiary of Amalgamation. They brought in the pulp mills, husky oil, etc; and increased their tax base.

Problem is the servicing of the Amalgamated areas has never even been close to what it should be.

The Province needs to take some responsibility for the added costs and step up to the plate. Hiding out in Victoria and pretending everything is **ok** in the Interior is B.S. Time to spread the money around so everyone benefits.

Its interesting to note that the Amalgamated area of the City increased to 68000 in 1974, and now stands at some 72000. Pretty p..s poor growth I would say. Even worse I suspect if you looked at the old City limits in 1974 the City itself probably did not grow at all.

So we have a massive failure by public servants, which is costing us huge dollars, and not a single one of them has the wherewithal to try and solve the problem.

Their number one solution is raise taxes and service charges every year and carry on with the same BS that got us in this mess in the first place.

The two pulp mills were part of the City at the time of the 1974 amalgamation. That was done when the mills were built.

We have about 10,000 or so people living on the outskirts of the City now.

Problem is, that unlike Detroit where the suburbs are doing relatively fine compared to the city in the centre, those areas have no industry, offices, etc. to speak of. They are mainly bedroom communities that commute to jobs in PG.

They add to the economy of PG by buying goods and services in the City, but the land use services are provided by themselves through private water and sewer systems and payment of hydro and gas and the RDFFG and the Province through the road network.

In other words, they pay no taxes to the City to access the road networks, city services such as parks, trails, museums, art gallery, library, swimming pools, etc. but leave behind money to improve the viability of businesses.

Nothing wrong with Detroit, you can get a house for a grand or so in an auction. Too bad you have to be a resident to qualify as all you have to do is get it up to snuff in 6 months. Furnace, water heater and maybe a bit of pipe and wire.

http://buildingdetroit.org/Home

With respect to SFU, the province decided the new university should be located in Burnaby. That itself put it away from the center of population in the 1960s.

Gordon Shrum chose the mountain site from among several other sites considered. Must have been an ivory tower type of thinker.

I am not sure which universities you mean when you speak about “these” universities.

I know that the site that Ben mentions, the North Nechako river site would have been large enough for future expansion if it had grown with higher buildings and also have provided a nice riverfront campus, but still not a “downtown” campus.

Interestingly the distance from that site to downtown is about 1 km longer than from the site selected. On top of that, it is not anywhere near the center of population gravity, especially when one looks at future growth.

Cities in Canada, unless on the coast and hemmed in by the water, tend to grow west, not east. Prince George follows that trend.

Does anyone know if the installation of sewer service was part of an official agreement to persuade people to amalgamate? It has been 40 years and still no sewer at my home (Hart). Coincidently I asked at city hall yesterday (as I have many times over the years) about getting sewer down my road. I have paraphrased it but basically I got one of the standard answers I always get. (not in my lifetime, first of never, when hell freezes over, etc.) I would gladly do a trade: abandon Foothills road from Otway rd. to Chief Lake road in exchange for a sewer line.

Hartly wrote: Does anyone know if the installation of sewer service was part of an official agreement to persuade people to amalgamate?

It was in three areas that I know of.
I would follow what the planners say lol… not in our lifetime. Yet they just rezone the areas at whim without thinking of the consequences as they did with the Haldi area – Not once but twice was it not?

City hall speaks with with forked tongues..They stabbed the residents in the back so to speak……..

Some of the old timers have tried numerous times to get the same things as the rest of the city but are just shunned by city.This has been done to many of the residents from all that have been in term since amalgamation.

Maybe Haldi area will start a trend….lol

Easier to build out in College Heights than to deal with the crap downtown. I used to think the downtown could be something for PG to be proud of, now its just an embarrassment. Open drinking and drug use. Open drug deals. Needles and used condoms used to be in back alleys but since the police stopped coming downtown its now moved to the sidewalks. I walked from the Northern to Homework the other day and I was asked if I wanted to by drugs 4 times in that short little walk.

Palopu writes “My suggestion is that the Province should pay a portion of the cost of servicing the Amalgamated areas”

They did Pal at the time of amalgamation. The city received 6 million dollars to help with costs such as water and sewer to out lying areas. I can’t seem to find out just yet what the city spent that money on.

The rural areas were also promised to stay rural residential and keep their rural tax rates………….but we all know too well what politician promises are all about.

Amalgamation was a complete failure for the areas amalgamated. The sewer infrastructure build out for Wallace Crescent is a fine example, with the property owners of the street not only paying 100% of the cost for the new sewer line, but also for the repaving of the street once the sewer line goes in, and on top of it all its an open bid contract with the final price not guaranteed by the city, so leaving the home owners liable for any and all cost over runs.

In the next five years the City of PG will require at least 2000 multi unit developments if we are even to keep pace with replacement of existing multi unit housing that have reached the end of their service life. A lot of the buildings are at the stage they should be condemned… like the 1st and Tabor area and some areas of the hood.

Factor in even modest growth and PG is short in excess of 5000 multi units for housing… especially considering any pipeline LNG developments and accommodation for those industry workers. IMO it will be the next city council that will be deciding not only where these developments will be going, but will also be tasked with bringing into PG out of town developers that are willing to fill this need for our city. How can the city grow if it has a zero vacancy rate?

So this November civic election will be hugely important for the future direction of PG. Will we grow with grace into a high quality livable city, or will we degenerate further into an over priced run down work camp?

We need the growth to kick start other improvements in the city. But I don’t think we need IPG to bring us this growth. The money for IPG would be better spent on development planing for increased residential density in all areas of the city that have the existing capacity for future growth without significant costs to infrastructure improvements.

IMO a 30-story residential building behind walmart would be iconic for the city skyline and could utilize existing infrastructure in place, while providing housing within walking distance to significant employment.

Another great place to develop highrise housing developments would be in the areas around Pine Center including behind the YMCA… along 5th avenue west of Ospika, and the Edgewood pit area along Foothills and the river. All areas with clean air coming in from the west so as not to sour the city image of building its core in the shadow of stinking pollution stacks… rather instead building in high quality neighborhoods with access to all the things that make PG a great city like shopping and access to nature trails.

Time Will Tell

“College Heights is the place to build and is the new ‘downtown’ district and we be for many more years to come”

=================================

I grew up in College Heights and like the area allot, but in no way shape or form do I think it should be seen as a downtown district.

A downtown is more than just shopping and it’s certainly more than a bunch of box stores in a collection of strip malls. Downtowns have attractions. Downtowns have parks. Downtowns have places to hang out with no real purpose other than to hang out. Downtowns have recreational opportunities. Downtowns have all different types of retail. Downtowns have a mix of restaurants. Downtowns have night life. Downtowns have residential density. Downtowns are designed for foot traffic, not vehicle traffic. Downtowns don’t waste space with parking lots, they see space as a valuable resource and develop it.

College Heights is simply a large residential neighbourhood adjacent to high volume retail outlets. It’s also on one end of the city and is completely not central.

If PG wanted to create a new downtown, they should’ve focused on the area between 16/97 and Peden Hill. They blew that as well by turning it into an extended strip mall full of dead space.

For once I would just like to see PG focus on quality in development and not simply quantity.

I’d suggest they put a moratorium on new development outside of the core for the next 5-10 years and instead identify parcels of land within the core that are ideally suited for development or re-development.

I think they also need to try and attract developers from outside of PG. I hate to say it, but there needs to be some new blood, new ideas and new competition. Try and attract people that know how to develop residential communities, as opposed to just throwing up some houses. There is a big difference between the two approaches.

When is the last time that a nice park was built in PG? How about some ponds or water features? I’ll give just one example. Look at that drainage pond at the top of Peden Hill as you head into College Heights. Unless it has changed, it looks like someone just dug a hole and let it fill up with rain water. Come to Ottawa and look at what is done for drainage and collection ponds here. They basically turn them into wetlands that blend in with the surrounding area. You wouldn’t know them from a natural pond if you didn’t look carefully or didn’t notice the obvious stonework or other landscaping features built into them. Some of these are done by the city as part of an infrastructure project, others are done by developers when creating a new subdivision.

The point is that PG needs to demand better developments. They sell themselves far too short and the city suffers because of it.

The City of Prince George has important things to do, such as building a Performing Arts Centre, and selling of parkland like the Pine Valley Golf Course, getting rid of the downtown swimming pool, and of course supervising the Winter Games. Then of course they want to rezone Haldi Road to put in a treatment centre. This treatment centre was touted as being needed asap, because of all the people with problems. Hmmmmm. 6 months later it is not built. Where did the problem people go|?? Vancouver, Victoria, Kelowna, Kamloops, or nowhere??

I don’t think the appeal decision on the Haldi Road has come down yet and if it has was kept pretty quit. They can still go ahead with a limited number of clients but not with the institutional size one until court rules.
Kinda funny that you think city services that you use should be subsidized Palopu, golf course and transfer station for example but others are a waste of tax dollars.

quite

one more time quiet fat fingers,not use to all the heat today!