An interesting article in The Province:
http://www.theprovince.com/business/Teachers+need+public+opinion+make+power+disadavantage/9894031/story.html

Also worth reading are the comments posted after the article.

ELL students should not be funded by the taxpayers for their English lessons. That function / burden should rest solely on the family.

How long before year end field trips and sports days are cancelled?

Also, I wish teahers would stop putting ‘kids’ on their signs. (Fair deal for the ‘kids’; BC Budget cuts hurt ‘kids’, etc.)

They are in it for significant wage and benefit increases. Why don’t then signs say that? Stop using kids as pawns.

JB, what ever happened with peeps hacking HG?
Anything?

karmann, I read the article yesterday.

I found it interesting that the article points out that “There’s also a massive teacher surplus in B.C. — about 70,000 certified teachers for 30,000 jobs in the public-school system — creating zero labour-market pressure on the government to offer premium wages.”

In spite of the huge surplus of certified teachers in BC, our Universities keep churning out more and more teachers each and every year!

In spite of this surplus, here we are with the BCTF demanding wage increases of 16% over 4 years while public-sector workers in other unions have already settled for a 5.5 per cent raise over five years!

Another poster that I believe is a teacher pointed out to me that the surplus doesn’t exist. Does this surprise me? Nope, not at all!

The only justification that I can see for the high wages demands is so that Jim Iker can finally afford to get a hair cut and can actually start to look like the “Professional” that he professes to be!

For crying out loud Jim, the 70’s and 80’s were over a long time ago and even Billy Ray Cyrus gave up the mullet! Get a modern day haircut and come back to the bargaining table for some modern day negotiating!

I know, I know, I’m not very nice!!

dow7500, I suspect that you can tell from the tone of my earlier post that this is the real Hart Guy, the one without a heart, haha!!

I was advised that the person posting as me has been banned, so I guess that you are stuck with me as I haven’t been banned, yet!

Have a nice week!

Hart Guy
I saw that figures of 70,000 surplus.
I’m sure there is a surplus , but that number strikes me as highly inaccurate. I just don’t believe the Liberal gov’t is entirely truthful.
You skip over the response that ” Under BC Liberals, BC Teachers went from being amongst the highest paid teachers in Canada to the second lowest for nearly a decade (on top of having their contracts illegally torn up and class size / composition removed). The deal the government is offering would have BC teachers remain the second lowest paid teachers in Canada for nearly two decades! (Keep in mind BC MLA’s doubled their salaries from 2001 – 2008 and are currently the best paid in Canada).

No wonder there has been a lot of strife our education system with the Liberals, who “

Hart Guy,
also further responses to Smyth’s article:

“The government so far isn’t even offering cost of living increases to teachers.”

“We literally had money during the Olympics to move snow from one mountain to another…..Literally. Materials for classrooms? Sorry, got no cash.”

The latter statement really sums up this Liberal gov’t.

karrman,

regardless of salary comparisons, teacher surpluses, class composition issues, it’s for the kids issues, etc, the underlying questions that needs to be asked and answered are:

When was the last time that the BCTF successfully negotiated a contract with any Government, Liberal, NDP or otherwise?, and

Why does the BCTF seem unable to successfully negotiate a contract with any Government, Liberal, NDP or otherwise??

Some of us don’t like the NDP while others don’t like the Liberals. That’s fair and reasonable, but the BCTF seems unable to successfully play in the sandbox with anyone!! Why is that??

1998-negotiated directly with government, struck a negotiated deal
2002-legislated contract-legislation later declared unconstitutional (now before courts)
2004-legislated agreement
2006-negotiated agreement
2012-negotiated agreement

The negotiations are often difficult, but more are negotiated than legislated. Also, keep in mind that in the last 14 years (including this one) we have been given a zero percent increase.

I question the years without salary increase….according to the BCTF site:

“An agreement-in-committee was concluded with BCPSEA at 9:30 p.m.on June 30, 2006, and details are highlighted in the settlement summary. Members ratified the five-year agreement on September 8, 2006. The settlement included a 16% salary increase over five years, and a $4,000 signing bonus for each individual teacher.”
http://bctf.ca/BargainingAndContracts.aspx?id=4902&libID=4976

I agree that our teachers work hard and deserve their voices to be heard but the BCTF seems to have their own agenda and is intent on causing strife and not negotiating a FAIR deal.

I question the years without salary increase….according to the BCTF site:

“An agreement-in-committee was concluded with BCPSEA at 9:30 p.m.on June 30, 2006, and details are highlighted in the settlement summary. Members ratified the five-year agreement on September 8, 2006. The settlement included a 16% salary increase over five years, and a $4,000 signing bonus for each individual teacher.”
http://bctf.ca/BargainingAndContracts.aspx?id=4902&libID=4976

I agree that our teachers work hard and deserve their voices to be heard but the BCTF seems to have their own agenda and is intent on causing strife and not negotiating a FAIR deal.

Hmm, Flash, would that 1998 contract be the one that was settled between the Glen Clark NDP Government and the BCTF, the one where the contract was settled with the BCTF and 3 NDP Deputy Ministers reaching an agreement without any input from the BCPSEA and with complete rejection by 56 of 60 School Boards?

Is that the contract that you are talking about? That contract provided 0-0-2 but it didn’t end there! After Glen Clark resigned in 1999, the new NDP premier, Ujjal Dosanjh began uncovering the true costs which were far beyond 0-0-2 and included pension improvements, hiring targets, boosts in pay and benefits for designated categories, all told equivalent of an 11-per-cent boost in the tab for public sec-tor compensation and resulting in a Spring of 2000 memorable headline: NDP math: 0+0+2=11.

A review of some of your other negotiated or legislated agreements reveals some interesting figures:

In 2002, the legislated agreement provided teachers with 7.5% salary increase over 3 years.

In 2006, the BCTF signed a deal for a 16% salary increase over 5 years, plus a $4,000.00 signing bonus per teacher.

For you to suggest that you have been given a zero percent increase in the last 14 years is absolutely false!!

What frustrates me the most with these never-ending battles between the BCTF and the Government of the Day is the constant stream of false, misleading or outright wrong information! It would be so nice to be able to have full disclosure of both the Government’s offer and the BCTF’s demands! Is this too much to ask for? Probably, considering that even the fictional Detective Sargeant Joe Friday of the Radio/TV series show Dragnet was misquoted as saying “Just the facts, ma’am,” when in fact, what he actually said was “All we want are the facts.” !!

Flash, stating “in the last 14 years (including this one) we have been given a zero percent increase” is simply not stating the facts.

All we want are the facts!

Flash, you have indicated that you are a teacher. I just have to ask, are you a Math Teacher?

“For you to suggest that you have been given a zero percent increase in the last 14 years is absolutely false!!” My apologies-I meant to say that in the past 14 years we have been given zero seven times. Typing too quickly, I suppose. Hope that clears things up a little. Again-my bad

1998-0
1999-0
2004-0
2005-0
2012, 2013, 2014-0

I question the years without salary increase….according to the BCTF site:

“An agreement-in-committee was concluded with BCPSEA at 9:30 p.m.on June 30, 2006, and details are highlighted in the settlement summary. Members ratified the five-year agreement on September 8, 2006. The settlement included a 16% salary increase over five years, and a $4,000 signing bonus for each individual teacher.”
http://bctf.ca/BargainingAndContracts.aspx?id=4902&libID=4976

I agree that our teachers work hard and deserve their voices to be heard but the BCTF seems to have their own agenda and is intent on causing strife and not negotiating a FAIR deal.

The usual people spouting the usual stuff every time there is an article on here about the teachers. This paper said this, this blog said that….yada yada yada. I guess you’re all a bunch of government lovers now. 2 weeks ago you were on Christie Clark continuously. Now it’s the teachers. I’ve been called out on here because of my comments regarding not being too hard on teachers when their efforts allow you to get on here and complain. I guess the other side is that doctors that cure your disease, lawyers that keep you out of jail, paramedics that get you to the hospital, surgeons that open you up and remove what’s ailing you, priests who hear your confessions and problems, therapists that hear your problems, researchers working on cancer cures, pilots keeping you and your loved ones safe in the skies etc. all share one common thread. Without teachers, they wouldn’t be who they are today doing what they do today. Try and remember that when you group them all as a bunch of whining greedy unionists who don’t give a $hit.

sorry puter glitch :( didn’t mean to postt 3 times.

The BCTF is complaining that teachers are low paid but their salaries are comparable to other educated professionals in equivalent positions. Other professionals however work many more days per year and like teachers, usually take work home.

In the competitive world we have today, I would love to see teachers paid a fair wage for merit. Get performance appraisals like the rest of us. If you are a good teacher you get rewarded, if you are horrible, you get terminated.

Flash, O seven times in the past 14 years!

How did you do during the global economic crisis that hit us in 2008, with effects that lingered for years?

How did your 0 compare to the many that took wage cuts and or lost their jobs altogether?

How did your 0 compare to the job losses that some suffered due to their poor job performance, while BCTF members seem immune to such scrutiny and the consequences of it?

I have stated repeatedly that I think it’s high time for a complete review of all levels of Government, Federal, Provincial and Municipal. This review needs to be from the very top down to the very bottom, with a complete review of services provided and the methods in which those services are provided.

It’s fair to ask for accountability for the taxes that are collected and paid out in the provision of services. It’s also fair to expect that those providing the services are doing so in a reasonable manner and if not, are replaced by those that will!

PGguy1234, nice to see you here, spouting your usual stuff, just like all the rest of us ;-)

Funny, when I mentioned “its all about the kids” awhile back I was challenged by people saying that no one ever said that, it was all “liberal spin”. Now I can’t seem to find a picket sign that doesn’t have the word “kids” on it.

Yeah watch them whine about another 10% reduction in pay! After all teacher should be paid for striking and screwing over all there kids from field trips and extra curricular activities..After all, it is all about the kids RIGHT!

PGGuy1234: “The usual people spouting the usual stuff every time there is an article on here about the teachers. “

And you are different in which way exactly?

Thanks for the information Flash, I did not know; in a full half (7 out of 14 years) the teachers received zero salary increases.

It appears to me, that in taking zero salary increases in half of the past 14 years, the BCTF demonstrates they can be accommodating. Interesting how the presentation of numbers and the facts can cut through unsubstantiated opinion and rhetoric like a hot knife through butter.

When unsubstantiated opinions and rhetoric gets thick on this site, it’s nice to read some of the evidence based comments exposing the truth! Some good comments here, thanks, I learned a couple of new facts today.

BeingHuman, if you took more time and actually read all of the posts instead of just the ones that appeal to your ideology, you would have noticed that Flash originally posted false and misleading information that was subsequently corrected after the errors were pointed out!

You would have also read that although the BCTF did settle for zero percent salary increases at times in the past, they often settled for zero while enjoying increases to pensions, benefits, time off provisions, etc!

If you could see through your own rhetoric once is a while and instead focus on the “Facts and Truths” of a situation, you might not be just someone else with unsubstantiated opinions and rhetoric!

Sucks to find out that you are no smarter and no more perfect than the rest of us, eh Peeps!!

HartGuy says:

A review of some of your other negotiated or legislated agreements reveals some interesting figures:

In 2002, the legislated agreement provided teachers with 7.5% salary increase over 3 years.

In 2006, the BCTF signed a deal for a 16% salary increase over 5 years, plus a $4,000.00 signing bonus per teacher.

——————————————-

Okay, I’ll bite. The contract in 2002, which was heralded by the government at the time as being a panacea for all of the ills of the education system, ultimately stripped the Teachers’ contract of many provisions that had been negotiated over many rounds and years of contracts and negotiations. Much of those stripped provisions were originally bargained for at the expense of a salary increase in the first place. The 7.5% salary increase, which was more than the cost of living, came at the expense of significant changes made to the class size and composition language and the ratios of non-enrolling teachers within the public school system. These changes have had lasting effects and continue to be felt today in the classroom. Ultimately, by stripping the contract of this language, the government paid for any wage increase that it gave out. This has also been found to be unconstitutional by the courts on two occasions. The government is appealing this decision.

Regarding the 2006 negotiated contract, it was settled under, shall we say, less than ideal conditions. The government put out the carrot of a signing bonus, and there was intense pressure on the BCTF bargaining team to achieve a deal at the table. Many items, including class size and composition and non-enrolling teacher ratios, were left on the table. Basically, the bargaining team felt that it got the best deal possible. It also provided five years of labour peace between the BCTF and their employer, BCPSEA. That being said, there were, and continue to be, ideological differences between the two. The $4000.00 signing bonus was not available to every teacher in the province. The contract provided for up to a $4000.00 bonus. My wife and I, both teachers, combined received significantly less than half of that. I would have gladly not taken the signing bonus in exchange for a continuation of negotiations.

It is easy for us, on both sides of the situation, to point fingers and lay blame and cast disparaging remarks; however, there are many layers to the relationship between the BCTF and BCPSEA and government. It is really quite simple:

Regarding the Lock Out: The one person board of BCPSEA voted, without consulting individual school districts, to lock out teachers and start docking their pay. That is right…they locked out the teachers during NON-INSTRUCTIONAL hours and then docked them pay because they weren’t doing their jobs when they were locked out during their own time. Excuse me? Can you please explain the logic in this?

Regarding Extra-Curricular: it is EXTRA CURRICULAR. It is not part of a teachers job to sponsor a club, or run a team, or volunteer their time to do things outside of their instructional time. Those who want to can, and those who don’t want to don’t have to. Teaching is the only job where this is almost an expectation of employment – this question was asked of me in four job interviews. I do not believe that a fire fighter, police officer, grocery clerk, mill worker, photocopier repair man, or a banker has this expectation. Currently, because teachers are locked out by their employers at lunch and from 45 minutes after the end of the day to 45 minutes before the start of the day, teachers have decided not to participate in these activities. Field trips, while great learning opportunities, are not a necessity to school life. Besides, since teachers are locked out from doing work at lunch, who is going to provide supervision during this time? The employer has said that teachers cannot.

Regarding pensions: teachers have an excellent pension plan that they have negotiated over the course of the last forty-five years or so. However, things have changed and retired teachers do not have access to the same benefits that they once had under the pension plan, and cost pressures continue to increase on the plan. Both parties – BCPSEA and the BCTF – pay into this plan, as do school district administrators. BCTF members pay a significant amount of their salary into the plan. If you are envious of this plan, so be it. If you feel it is unfair, great…but instead of bitching about it, perhaps fighting for the conditions of your employment and your retirement should take up more of your time.

Regarding bereavement leave (which was so contentious last time): the BCTF simply wanted the same provisions that EVERY OTHER WORKER IN CANADA HAS under the Employment Insurance Act. The contract language was weaker than that of the EI Act. This was felt to be discriminatory, and was a reasonable bargaining objective.

Regarding wages: it is called bargaining for a reason. Here is how it works: both sides table proposals. They disagree about these proposals. They talk about these proposals. They either modify these proposals, or they don’t. They either give something up, or they don’t. The BCTF would like to be able to negotiate the working conditions of its members. BCPSEA is unwilling to do this, so the BCTF has not moved far from its salary proposal…can you blame them? The other side won’t budge from the other main issue in negotiations, so where is the incentive for the BCTF to do the same? The last time they were able to negotiate these conditions was back in 1998. Things have changed a great deal since then. Is a 16% increase reasonable? Maybe, maybe not. It is a place from which to start. Very rarely do you get to “bargain up” wages. Start high and hope for the best.

Regarding class size and composition: There are two things that are most important in the daily life a student: teacher contact and the size and composition of the class. I was in a meeting with a senior administrator from the school district who no longer works in schools, but out of the board office. He went into a local elementary school and helped with a reading lesson. He said that he could not believe how different the needs of the student were compared to when he was in the classroom. He found them to be needier, with weaker skills, and less ability to concentrate on the task at hand. This is concerning…and it is not getting better.

Finally, because if you have read this far, you are still interested, there is the issue of hiring. Individual school districts hire teachers. They make the decision to employ teachers. The BCTF represents these people once they become teachers, and they have to represent all of their members – the good, the bad, and the ugly. Processes are in place to help struggling teachers, and processes are in place to remove teachers from the profession. It is up to the employer to follow the rules that they have agreed to in contract, and it is up to the BCTF to defend its members while following the same rules. I don’t think fault should be directed at one party and not the other when the issue of teacher quality is brought to the fore.

It is easy to snipe from the sidelines and spew forth answers from on high. I get it, that is what people often do. What I don’t get is the vitriol that gets tossed around and the lack of understanding of a profession that is involved in the most important part of a young person’s development. I know, teachers are easy targets – “Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.” Most teachers can do many things, but they chose to teach and chose not to pursue careers in other areas because that is where they felt they belonged.

Feel free to disagree and comment, but, please, make sure of two things: you truly understand the complexity of the issues; and you make sense when you do it.

Thanks.

hg, if the hacker was banned, why is peeps still posting?

dow7500, I’m not sure who got banned. Peeps might have many different personas!

billy68, I am 100% convinced that your argument is based upon everything that the BCTF wants you to know, while the Government, BCPSEA, and School Boards tell the rest of us what they want us to know!

That’s the biggest problem in the whole system. If you think that your Union is telling you absolutely everything about what is going on at the bargaining table, then I hate to tell you, but you are delusional!

At the same time, I am delusional if I believe absolutely everything that the Government, the BCPSEA and the School Board Trustees tell me!

I stated in an earlier thread, that I would like to be privy to all that goes on at the bargaining table. I want full and honest disclosure. I want to know exactly what is being offered and what is being demanded. I want to know how much all of this is going to cost me! Is that too much to ask?

As I also said in an earlier thread, I believe that most teachers are just like everybody else, working hard and trying to do the best at their jobs. But teachers seem immune to performance reviews and the consequences of such reviews. There are good employees and there are bad employees, in any and every employment sector, but I honestly can’t remember ever knowing about a teacher that lost their job due to incompetence. It seems to take some serious breach of the law before someone gets canned. How about just being canned for being a poor quality teacher??

You state “teachers are involved in the most important part of a young person’s development” as if to suggest that your chosen profession is more important than other professions. Perhaps that gives you justification for your expectation that you deserve all that the BCTF tells you that you deserve, and more! I hate to disappoint you, but I don’t consider “you” to be any more important than “I” am! Teachers are a dime a dozen, but good ones are not! Unfortunately, you all get lumped together sharing the same rewards instead of the good ones reaping greater rewards while the poor ones get ushered out the door. The lack of this ability results in a watering down effect on our education system, with mediocrity being bred rather than excellence. It seems that a lot of us have memories of a pathetically poor quality teacher or two during our school years.

While teachers do play a valuable role in our society, so to do the rest of us! The schools would soon fall into a sad state of repair without the services of the custodial and maintenance staff. School lunches would be difficult to prepare without our farming communities efforts to provide food. Construction workers build the schools that you work in, and so on and so on and so on!! All working people, teachers AND the rest of us, pay taxes to support our society including providing a school for you to work in, equipment to use, a pay cheque every couple of weeks and a very generous benefits and pension plan. So, who’s more important, teachers or the rest of us?? It’s kind of a “who came first, the chicken or the egg” situation, isn’t it!!

Speaking of your pension, I’m glad that you have a great pension, but disappointed that you didn’t acknowledge that I am helping to pay for it! Did you forget that all of the money in the education budget comes from taxes? You have a pension plan that many taxpayers help pay for, many taxpayers who don’t have a pension. You might want to be a bit more appreciative of our contributions. As hard as you might work in your chosen field, you should not forget that the rest of us are working every bit as hard so that we can earn a living and then pay taxes to support the entire system, including your salary and your pension. Are you the Chicken and am I the Egg, or is it the other way around??

Billy68, you have suggested that I should feel free to disagree and comment but that I should make sure that I truly understand the complexity of the issues and that I make sense when I do it. It’s late, I’m tired, 6:00 a.m. comes early so I’ll end this long boring response by suggesting that you also need to understand the complexity of the issues and you need to do so from both sides of the fence, not just from what the BCTF tells you!! If we were able to get the full story, as I have mentioned earlier, then perhaps we both might be more understanding!

Good night!

Great comment billy68, the point you made about the one person appointed BCPSEA Board was one I raised a couple days ago.

Looking forward to Hart Guy’s response to all your well reasoned points. *grabs a bowl of popcorn…

Unless of course, Hart Guy has once again found himself in way over his head, and has again returned to the shallow end of the pool.

BeingHuman, it really saddens me that you never comment on my well reasoned points. You failed to respond to my earlier post where you praised Flash for providing information that was in fact false!! Instead as always, you retreat to the shallow end of the pool, leaving room for no one else once you and your over inflated ego settle in!

As I stated in my earlier comment to you, sucks to find out that you are no smarter and no more perfect than the rest of us, eh Peeps!!