Be interested to hear what the BCTF and Fassbender’s definition of “realistic expectations” is.

I bet that they are miles apart on their definitions on those two words and that is why there is a teachers dispute

Let’s wait to see if BCPSEA have removed the class size and composition off the table. The BCTF have won the court case on this twice and the appeal is before the Supreme Court. The govt are asking the BCTF to bargain away what the court has already upheld as being constitutional and then bashing the BCTF for being greedy! What an embarassment to watch the govt bargain in bad faith while having no respect for our courts. Not much media attention on this – it’s mostly just how greedy the teachers are. What a crock. I’d bet most would happily settle to the 7% if the govt would remove the class size & composition issue from negotiations. Wait until the courts rule!

Actually, the government thinks the one judge of the BC Supreme Court is wrong, and they are appealing to the BC Court of Appeal – where 3 judges will hear the argument, and if they lose there, they can still appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada – 7 judges will hear the argument.

But as for respecting the courts – when Trinity Western asked to be accredited to certify teachers – the BC College of Teachers – a close cousin of the BCTF – said no.

The BC College of teachers lost at the BC Supreme Court – but did they respect that decision – no, they appealed.

They lost at the BC Court of Appeals – but did they respect that decision – no, they appealed.

They lost at the Supreme Court of Canada – 8 to 1, so they had no choice but to obey.

So no surprise the government isn’t willing to just do what the first court said, after all, the teachers set the precedent.

And the government probably does have an argument, standard labour contracts start off with management, manages, and it has to be determined whether setting class size and composition – is a management function – or a working condition that can be negotiated.

“And the government probably does have an argument, standard labour contracts start off with management, manages, and it has to be determined whether setting class size and composition – is a management function – or a working condition that can be negotiated.”

So I would wait to see what the court says and I sure as hell wouldn’t negotiate away something that is subject to a court decision until after that decision is made (supposed to be sometime this fall).

fyi: BCCT was a regulatory/certifying body that no longer exists due to its potential conflict of interest with the BCTF. It has been replaced by the Teacher Regulation Branch which has a similar function but also actively investigates/diciplines teachers as required.

vincentrubble – I agree, until the matter is decided, if they had any smarts between them, they would defer the class size composition negotiations until it has been ruled upon.

But my main point is the teacher’s side of the table keeps hammering at this lack of respect for the courts – and my point is, when the teacher’s lost at a lower court, they didn’t see it as disrespectful to appeal, even after they lost at the highest appeal court in BC – they kept on fighting, and refused to certify, until their last appeal was heard. So, what’s good for the goose – teachers – is good for the gander – government.

Personally, and I’ve said this before, I think teacher’s have a tough job – no doubt about it. But my question always has been, how should we pay for it – cut programs elsewhere, raise income taxes, borrow money. Usually the answer is to point at some government waste – but that’s peanuts compared to what the teacher’s are asking for. The premier’s office cost about nine million to run, so even if her and all the MLAs stopped taking salaries, that get’s us about 20 million of what we need.

Raise corporate taxes – you can try, but it’ll just result in less investment by small business and reduced dividends to pension plans by large corporations.

The government wont commit money to address class size and composition. They feel they are in the right in stripping this from the collective agreement. They have lost twice in court but have appealed to a higher court (as is their right).

The teachers wont agree to a contract that doesnt have class size and composition as part of it. They’ve won twice in court and feel it should be in there.

That’s the crux of it, and everything else is smoke screen, from both sides. So unless the Court of Appeal rules before next week (currently scheduled to rule some time in the fall) the full strike will go ahead and it wont end anytime soon, unless the BCLibs legislate it…again.

I don’t see how it can be argued that class size and composition are purely management issues. Does anyone seriously deny that class size and composition have as significant effect on working conditions?

“Be interested to hear what the BCTF and Fassbender’s definition of “realistic expectations”

Cupe – support workers in schools have been offered 5% over 5 years beginning July 2015

30% reduction in class size and a 30% reduction in wages for teachers. THat way all the teacher colleges graduates can get a job without raising taxes. Simple stuff and works very well in norway sweden and finland.

Hmmmm, if the courts were right why would the government even negotiate on the weekend? Did not the ruling say the government wants a full blown strike?
You can’t negotiate something before the courts can you?

I was told by a teacher that what the gov’t is offering is a two tiered system pay scale: one a much lower salary for those beginning and the higher scale grandfathered in for those who are already teaching.

@iwonder, 5.5% over 5. But they just had 4% over 2 which hasn’t been offered to teachers. Also, you need to look at the details of that agreement, beyond the press release. Some really big gains for the union to concede to the 5.5%.

@cupricty, check the teachers salaries in those countries, you’ll be shocked.

@slinky, you can withdraw an appeal at any time.

@karman, that’s awesome. Let’s Safeway our education system. Should make it the envy of the developed world.

I have been in the education system since the ’80’s. It was once a very vibrant system. Since the Campbell/Clark right wing Liberals have formed government, I have witnessed a tremendous diminution in course selections, current texts, current technology, satisfactory school building hygiene and repairs, broken desks that are consistently in use. Basically the Liberals have gutted the public system. This is the Christy Clark’s corporate welfare agenda. Transfer huge amounts of public taxpayer’s money to subsidize the high brow, elitist, tony private schools where educators rake in 100,000 or more and there are no class composition issues. They choose their clientele. The public system does not. 80% of BC residents would find private school fees extremely onerous or impossible to pay. Joe Public’s kids do not have the opportunities presented to them as the kids have in private school. Yet the Clark Liberals want you to pay for their fancy private schools. These Liberals have unleashed propoganda to make the public have a disrespect for teachers and a good education opportunity for the publicly educated child. They want a working proletariat at minimum wages. Clark hires her girlfriend, Pamela Martin, at 130,000.00 /yr. to be her “advisor”. This govt is a disgrace.

Funding for private schools are only 35 to 50 percent of what public schools get per student yet they can pay their teachers more and actually teach a curriculum

Parents who want private schools…..pay for it yourself. As a taxpayer , I do not care to pay for your kid’s education.

I think the teachers need to strike all out and stay out. Teachers….go to Alberta and get a summer job to prepare for the long haul.

Posted by: cupricity on June 12 2014 5:30 PM
30% reduction in class size and a 30% reduction in wages for teachers. THat way all the teacher colleges graduates can get a job without raising taxes. Simple stuff and works very well in norway sweden and finland.

You could head up the anti crack program.

According to bctf website private schools get half of what public gets and no capital funding. So if those teachers are getting 120000 it’s because of tuition parents pay. Whether it’s shawnigan or cedars they both get the same funding. So you can’t blame private schools. If they all closed the funding problem would be worse. The problem is the level of education you think we should have and what the liberals think we can afford. What I’d like bctf to do is tell us where to get the money from. I’ve got a surgeon friend who could ease a lot of suffering if they’d let him operate before the patients condition gets critical but
NH says no money

Perhaps not everyone is aware that the two BC Supreme Court rulings in favour of the BCTF were based on a previous 2007 Supreme Court of Canada ruling that struck down yet another BC Liberal government law restricting bargaining rights in the health care sector. Having to pay a significant fine to the HEU, it would seem this Liberal / Conservative government is indeed a three time loser when it comes to drafting illegal and unconstitutional legislation!

“The British Columbia government announced plans last week to appeal the BC Supreme Court’s ruling that a law restricting teachers’ bargaining rights is unconstitutional. The Court released this decision having recently struck down a near-identical law. Both its decisions followed a 2007 Supreme Court of Canada decision, which had struck down yet another B.C. law restricting bargaining rights in the health care sector. That Supreme Court decision, in turn, relied upon numerous International Labour Organization decisions, which have consistently chastised the B.C. government for violating public sector workers’ bargaining rights.”

http://rabble.ca/news/2014/02/bc-government-appeals-supreme-court-decision-on-bctfs-bargaining-rights

To Ski50: In response to your comment re surgeon friend who needs more operating time…..A few years ago I had major surgery in Vancouver. There was no bed for me and I ended up on a gurney at Tim Hortons. I read a news article stating that the CEO of the Fraser Health Authority makes approx. 500,000 per year. There is no way this salary should be allowed…..especially when the patient is on a gurney at Tim Hortons. Its where the tax money in this province is going and to whom. If one is a Liberal insider or corporation supporting Liberals… the wheels are greased. The Liberals have made a mess of BC Hydro; ICBC has been their cash cow also. BC Rail was sold to Americans….and now with the railways transpirting fossil fuels and cashing in….perhaps BC Rail should not have been sold and the earnings staying in BC communities instead of going to the states. The only LNG agreement has been with China and Putin for billions….not with the Clark Liberals. The Liberals are funding private schools to your children’s detriment. I find it unbelievable that the publuc has alliwed this. Fassbender’s role is to facilitate the downward spiral of the public education system as soon as possible.

You would be surprised if you knew the numbers of child(ren) in which principals / teachers / administrators and support staff of SD#57 send to private schools. In other words, they are saying I’ll take the pay from public education but it is not good enough for my child(ren).

I see that too.

I have also seen a lot of children attending private school in PG whose parents are public school teachers. I have also seen many comments lately about how private school is elitist and for the wealthy. It really is not that expensive here. Do people think it is elitist to send their children to daycare or preschool? Private school is cheaper!

If the agreement ends up being anywhere near as exorbitant as the BCTF is asking for, get ready for all the public sector unions to have their hands out saying ‘me too’.

These unions don’t care one bit about what they cost the taxpayers as long as they get access to their ‘bottomless pit’ of money.

woodwoman: “You would be surprised if you knew the numbers of child(ren) in which principals / teachers / administrators and support staff of SD#57 send to private schools.”

The public system is quickly becoming / has become an expensive joke with no punchline.

Teachers need to start doing their jobs, by teaching our kids a proper education, not this bullshit they teach now. most teachers are there for their two months off because their job is stressful. Boo hoo, anyone that goes to work has a stressful job, meeting deadlines, jerk bosses, dealing with the public. We don’t get two months off to distress. My child deserves a proper education, too bad they can’t get one. Our public school system sucks.

Well my kids went through the public system in earlier days and one is a doctor and the other an engineer.

@taxpayerteacher I also think that teachers who work in private schools in PG would be surprised to hear that they make $100 000 per year. They do not. Private schools in PG are also not choosey about the students they accept. In addition to children of public school teachers, I have also seen ESL and children with disabilites attending private schools.

Education is mandatory from age 5 to 16. BC pays over 8,000 per child per year to those who educate them. If we pay 35 to 50 percent of that and they get a better education in a private school partially funded by those parents we need to take a look at the entire system.

I know of two children in private school in PG who are disabled and require more attention than the public system can provide them. Private schools do this and provide a better education for these children fir half the public funding. Maybe taxpayingteacher should look at what private schools are doing right for less public dough.

The other reason they chose private over public was to escape the cruelty of ‘normal’ non disabled children within the public system. They were treated far better by their peers in private school, another thing taxpayingteacher can look into.

The government should insist that any agreement is at least 6 or 7 years in length and there is agreement on class composition numbers. We owe it to the students to sign long term and finally agree on what the right number of kids is for the classroom. No matter what has been signed in the past there is always this toxic environment and complaining after the deal. Nothing ever seems to make the teachers and union happy.

Don’t sign a deal you don’t like, and when you finally sign this deal quit all your complaining about your jobs. I have had two kids through the public school system and teachers are happy when a new contract is signed, but a year after the agreement a new list of rherotic starts up about what the government is doing wrong.

It’s an endless do loop of complaining!!

Don’t sign a contract if you are still going to keep complaining about conditions. Obviously it wasn’t what you wanted.

@taxpayerteacher, please provide some evidence to support your statements regarding teacher salaries at private schools. Also, please provide some evidence of the class composition structure within private schools.

Yesterday I had a 2 hour discussion with a teacher who like you, is simply blowing smoke out of her butt!

She is completely convinced (because her Union told her) that:

1. The BCTF’s ENTIRE compensation package demandS are less than 9%.

2. There is no demand for any Cost of Living clause.

3. All workers, both public and private sector, automatically receive a Cost of Living Increase each and every year.

4. There are many, many classes throughout the province with class sizes exceeding 40 students.

5. Most classes contain 6 or more special needs or special program students.

6. The teacher’s pension plan is completely funded by contribution from teachers, with the Government (taxpayer) making any contribution whatsoever.

7. The BCTF has done absolutely nothing at all to provoke the Government and the strike.

8. BCTF membership is only around 30,000 members.

Shall I go one?? This is what one of your fellow BCTF members believes to be true!

This teacher, a lifelong teacher of approximately 30 year is absolutely clueless as to what’s been going on, what demands are on the table, what the demands would cost the Government (the taxpayer) or anything else that is relevant or factual regarding these negotiations.

taxpayerteacher, you sound a lot like her. Please tell me that most teachers aren’t as clueless as she seems! Please tell me that most teachers are smart enough to look at both sides of the negotiations, instead of just listening to the crap the BCTF feeds you!

I told her and I’ll tell you the same thing, if your job is so freaking bad and the pay is sooo much better in Alberta or other provinces, you have the right to quit your job, sell your house and move to Alberta or wherever the grass is greener!! That’s what the rest of us do!!

Or, perhaps you could just explain to me why you and the members of the BCTF think you are so special!!

It must truly suck to get out of university has a new teacher and be exposed to this union rhetoric about how everything is so bad.

What a negative system.

There so many good teachers in the system, but what I see is the strong voices sucking the living crap out of the good teachers. Some folks are never happy!! Maybe private school is the answer!!

Hart Guy sounds like minister assbender!

Comment Posted by: somepissedoff on June 12 2014 10:15 PM
Teachers need to start doing their jobs, by teaching our kids a proper education, not this bullshit they teach now. most teachers are there for their two months off because their job is stressful. Boo hoo, anyone that goes to work has a stressful job, meeting deadlines, jerk bosses, dealing with the public. We don’t get two months off to distress. My child deserves a proper education, too bad they can’t get one. Our public school system sucks.
—————————————

Insert head banging brick wall emoticon here—>

When I comment on private school teachers making 100,000. a year….I am referring to the expensive elitist St Georges type institutions. I am aware that the private religious schools and the like that are in PG do not. More often than not the students I have encountered coming out of these schools were deficient in curriculum skills.

Hart Guy….your comnents show you have an axe to grind with teachers. Very ignorant and “redneck”. I can dispute every point you make. I know what my large paycheque deductions are to the pension plan and the compound interest it generates. Unlike you, teachrrs cannot “write off ” their expenses to tax breaks. Try using more respectful language when commenting.

@taxpayerteacher “More often than not the students I have encountered coming out of these schools were deficient in curriculum skills.”

I know for a fact kids coming out of St. Marys and heading into grade 8 are way ahead of the public system.

@somepissedoff “Teachers need to start doing their jobs, by teaching our kids a proper education, not this bullshit they teach now…”

You do realize that what the teachers teach is controlled by the ministry of education right? What they’re taught, how they’re graded and the effort required to pass a class is all controlled by the ministry (read government).

If you’re unhappy that kids these days aren’t given a proper education, you should at least blame the correct party.

oh poor taxpayerteacher, did I hurt your feelings? Poor baby! I’m sorry, not!

There is so much misinformation out there regarding teachers wages and benefits and the saddest part of that there is just as much of it coming from teachers as there is coming form anyone else!

So, taxpayerteacher, here’s your chance!

Provide me 100% irrefutable proof that 100% of any and all contributions to your pension plan come from teachers only. Prove to me that I am not contributing to your Defined Benefit Pension Plan in any way, shape or form!

Private schools received 30 to 50% of the per pupil funding that public schools receive and private schools also receive no capital funding!

Come on taxpayerteacher, prove to me that as you state, the Liberal Government transfers “huge amounts of public taxpayer’s money to subsidize the high brow, elitist, tony private schools where educators rake in 100,000 or more and there are no class composition issues.”

Prove these few issues and then we can move on to more!!

taxpayerteacher

I can’t believe you have the gall to indicate that religous students are behind and deficient in learning.

Marks aren’t everything, it’s the morales that we are imposing on them that make them leaders.

At the very least maybe catholic kids get an appreciation for what they have.

In the words of the Rolling Stones song “You can’t always get what you want”

taxpayerteacher: “Hart Guy….your comnents show you have an axe to grind with teachers.”

Yours show you have an axe to grind with the government. What was your point again?

Morning JB!

taxpayerteacher stated the following in an earlier post:

“Hart Guy….your comnents show you have an axe to grind with teachers. Very ignorant and “redneck”. I can dispute every point you make. I know what my large paycheque deductions are to the pension plan and the compound interest it generates. Unlike you, teachrrs cannot “write off ” their expenses to tax breaks. Try using more respectful language when commenting.”

For the life of me, I don’t know what “comnents” are and I don’t know what a teachrr is! These must be real words, after all taxpayer teacher used them!

We know that taxpayerteacher isn’t a Math teacher! Now we also know that taxpayerteacher isn’t an English teacher!

taxpayerteacher says to Hart Guy “I can dispute every point you make.”
Well – we are waiting…