First!
Get it built already! Before the price goes up ;)

Ridiculous! $12M!

Then it sit’s empty for $1k per day for the rest of our lives.

And we wonder why taxes keep going up….

“The review also says based on current projections, the Performing Arts Centre would require an annual subsidy from the City in the amount of $404 thousand dollars”

Kindly go urinate against gravity on a gathering of braided strands… :)

Quick, let’s sell some assets so we can have the privilege of paying $400k a year for something we dont need.

…and will be used by a small minority of the population.

Oh, so its now $51.05 million. That’s just a little more than they were saying earlier. Wonder what the real actual cost would turn out to be?
Yeah, count me out.

This is absolutely something we need… perhaps in about 10 years from now. The idea of having additional entertainment downtown is a great idea to bring people to our downtown core. That said, our city has some poor infrastructure that needs to be tended to first. Perhaps if we made some significant cuts to city wages, we could afford the extra 400,000/year to support this… support staff does not need to be making in the $20-30/hr range for low skilled jobs. Private industry doesn’t pay that, why should our city?

STOP THE INSANITY!!!!!!!

Pgjohn I don’t think you are keeping up with wages in private industry.what do you rate as low skilled jobs? Do you consider all city jobs low skill?.

Absolutely no way in Hell should this go thru.

Too late, the trigger has been pulled.

Look at all the bleeding heart Libs who want to justify the price of a PAC. Brutal. How about paving a few roads first?

seamut, I consider low skilled jobs ones such as cashiers/custodians. If you look at job postings online, a cashier at the aquatic center pulls in $24/hr, and a custodian makes about $25-27/hr. This is far beyond even what the BC Govn’t pays equivalent positions.

I can assure you a cashier at retail establishments are not seeing 24/hr… more like minimum wage. Custodians at the hospital make nearly $10/hr less than the city and are in a riskier environment.

As I’ve said before

The P.A.C people have been asking for this for 30 years approx , and in those 30 odd years they have raised $0.00

If they were truly serious about having this built they should have already raised enough to build it privately.

Even the Girl Guides can raise a couple hundred thousand a year just with cookie sales .

This is not about having it built , this is about having someone else Pay for it .

Right on, Saywho

Leaving this burg in just over a year looks better and better each day. We should be out of this town before any shovels even hit the dirt on this project.
Look for a $250 to $300 per year increase in your taxes if this goes through. Lets call it the PAC Tax. We have winter games tax, road rehab tax, rain runoff tax, why not a pac tax too.

$51 Mill. would buy a lot of tar & feathers.

So let’s see how well the Pacs math works. They stated last November the cost would be 42.5 million with it expected to rise 2% a year due to inflation..
So 10 months later the price is now 51.5 million. So over 8.25% in 10 months.. Can’t trust them if we can’t trust their math.. And since the cop shop was approx %25 over budget the TRUE cost of this fiasco would be more around 65 million. With a $500,000 a year for upkeep.

AXE the PAC

Would be nice to have a PAC, but $51MM seems excessive.

The money for the place and running it should come from the industry and not the tax payers again. CANFOR is ripping a lot of profit from these remote communities and should give back to the community, considering the tax breaks it is enjoying under the BC liberals.

Tax levy increase to pay for something that will run at a loss? Take a hike.

The taxpayers of Prince George are being conned by the PAC Society, and the City. They have been working together for years to get this project off the ground, and are not very concerned about the cost to the average citizen. Lets look at whats taking place,.

1. The City is going to tear down the old Norgate and Ed Delorme buildings and clear a space for presenting the medals for the winter games. Why cant we give out the medals at the Civic Centre, or the CN Centre??. Is the City going to clear off this property and charge the cost to the Winter Games or some other budget so that it wont show up as a cost for the PAC.??

2. The ability to use money from the Gas Tax Fund will be official for 2015. Prior to that it could not be used. So, we are going to get money that could be used for roads, water, sewers, sidewalks, trails, swimming pool reno’s etc; and use it for a PAC. Not only will the money be available, but the City can borrow on future payments so they could spend money we haven’t received yet on this (stupid) venture.

3. Not sure how much money is in the Terasen Gas Legacy Fund, however when I asked the Mayor about the money in this fund about a few years ago, she stated that there was no money available, and if Terasen renewed the lease in lease out agreement, there would not be any money available for years to come????

4. Money from the sale of land sounds good if you say it fast, however they do not indicate what land they are talking about. They recently changed a City bylaw that now allows money from the sale of City Property on Highway 16 West to go to a Capital Investment Fund, after which it could be used for Capital Project such as a PAC. This bylaw was changed for a reason. My sense is that they would like to sell Pine Valley Golf Course so that they could access this money for a PAC.

Are we to believe that the PAC and the City would take a golf course away from Seniors, Juniors, Mobility Challenged people, etc; and spend this money for a PAC so some people can sit on their fat asses and watch **The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy**. It’s beginning to look like it.

5. A Tax Levy increase. Not bloody likely. They are trying to get us to agree to the Gas Tax idea, or the Land Sale idea, by threating us with a tax increase.

This issue MUST go to a referendum this fall, and have it settled once and for all.
The City and the PAC do not want a referendum. I wonder why. The City also does not want to borrow the money because then we could get a vote on it through an Alternate Approval Process.

Don’t think for a New York minute that we are not being manipulated on this project.

The Massive Ford Theatre was built in Vancouver in 1995 at a cost of $27M to service a population of roughly 1.8 million in GVRD. It failed, and was out of business within 3 years. It sat empty and sold years later for $7.8M. It’s now being sold again and turned into a church.

How is a population roughly 5% the size going to support a theatre that costs twice the amount to build?

Pgjohn so how much would the city save in their budget adjusting these pay levels? Enough to pay for a PAC? Maybe other cashier’s are underpaid while their bosses make off with the profits like raped apes.

seamut, these are just some examples… simply search the city job boards to see the insane rates of pay. If these retail establishments are under-paying, then they wouldn’t have workers. This is simple economics. Supply and demand determine price. There is a huge supply of low-skilled workers, and not as much of a demand, and therefore… lower wages.

Seeing my utility bills, and my property tax increases. I feel as a stakeholder in the city of PG… I have a legitimate concern.

People just need to make it known to candidates that supporting and pushing through a PAC will result in them not getting elected.

prof – which particular tax breaks are you talking about that Canfor is getting under the Liberals? The Income Tax Act is managed by the federal conservatives. The corporate tax rate is 25% for all general BC Corporations, and Canfor actually paid 26% last year. Considering an individual making $100,000 a year, only pays an average of 25% income tax – where’s the big rip off here. 2012 they made 26.4 million and 2013 250 million, considering their shareholders have 1.4 billion invested, and have taken all the risk, surely they should be able to make a few bucks. But what have the Liberals specifically done for Canfor – the HST is gone – so what is it?

“If these retail establishments are under-paying, then they wouldn’t have workers. This is simple economics.”

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Yes, but we don’t live inside of a theoretical economic model. We have stuff like minimum wages, temporary foreign worker programs, kids who don’t want to complain to their boss about working conditions, cities where job options are limited, etc.

Simple economics is great for a textbook, but sometimes it means nothing in the real world.

The old Norgate site, heh has anyone considered how much the remediation of the land for that and Delorims old garage will cost. That is before any form of construction is considered. These PAC jokers need to pull there heads out of where ever they are stuck and start thinking like folks on a budget.

not a good spot to build a PAC… there is no parking in the downtown area now…. so whre are they gong to find parking for up to another 400 to 800 cars.

I will vote for the mayoral candidate that will promise, in writing, that he will put the PAC to a referendum.
And yeah, I know, Politicians and promises…..

Saywho:”The P.A.C people have been asking for this for 30 years approx , and in those 30 odd years they have raised $0.00″

Right on! It appears that they do not believe in making that kind of an effort, even though most people would get a positive impression from it!

The operating cost of this facility is lowballed in my opinion. The Port Theatre in Nanaimo. A much smaller building costs approx. $500,000.00 per year to operate.

In addition we have less people to draw from to support this fiasco. While Nanaimo can draw people year round because of their better weather. We will be snowbound for 5 months of the year, and people tend to travel less. Then in the summer time people go on holidays etc;

I cant see anything good coming from this project.

Pgjohn those semiskilled have to deal with rising taxes also. How do you suppose they do that?

Okay, I’m definitely not a fan of this project but some of the comments are just silly. No parking next to the Keg. Are you kidding? There is a parkade right next to it. Not to mention most shows will probably occur at night, So a couple hundred cars could park at City Hall. Then tons of parking below Queensway etc. Ridiculous comment .

prof – which particular tax breaks are you talking about that Canfor is getting under the Liberals? The Income Tax Act is managed by the federal conservatives. The corporate tax rate is 25% for all general BC Corporations, and Canfor actually paid 26% last year. Considering an individual making $100,000 a year, only pays an average of 25% income tax – where’s the big rip off here. 2012 they made 26.4 million and 2013 250 million, considering their shareholders have 1.4 billion invested, and have taken all the risk, surely they should be able to make a few bucks. But what have the Liberals specifically done for Canfor – the HST is gone – so what is it?
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It is probably a reference to the BC Corporate Tax rate being lowered from 15% to 10% and then back to 11%? No doubt that is a lot of tax relief?

Or maybe it’s a reference to BC Hydro buying capital equipment for them under the Power Smart Program??

It could also be several hundred million in green money the federal govt gave Canfor?

Just some of the facts…in case you weren’t aware of them. ;-)

not a good spot to build a PAC… there is no parking in the downtown area now…. so whre are they gong to find parking for up to another 400 to 800 cars.
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Good question, especially when there is snow removal going on. The proposed location is really really bad, not many people are willing to leave their vehicles parked unattended downtown at night.

Sine. Keep in mind that you have the Keg, Ricks Grill, Oh Chocolate, plus a few more restaurants on 4th and 5th. Also the restaurant across from the Holiday Inn, has been sold. Then of course you have the Holiday Inn itself.

So parking on Friday or Saturday nights might be a problem. Who knows???

palopu – that’s one way for the city to clear that piece of property (for metal presentations/photo ops) but who knows what the eventual use will be. The city is known for back-room deals, but, hey, if it gets rid of an eye-sore…

Does the new PAC come with lube?

Only 51 million? For that cheap price we should build 2 PAC’s, one downtown and one out west. What’s 100 mill or so, just put a new line on the tax bill.

“But what have the Liberals specifically done for Canfor” .. lets see, basically gave them carte blanche to harvest as much as they want, when they overcut nothing is done to them, not even a fine. So who runs the forests, our govt or forest corporations?

My opinion is that the current mayor wants all city staff, and future council and mayors to have to look out city hall windows and see all her ‘grand expenses’. You look out the mayor’s office and you see the wood innovation building…. can’t miss it, right out her window. Then if the performing arts center goes ahead on that corner… it’s like jabbing the knife in, and before you twist it, you throw in some salt for good measure.
She gets the last laugh: “look what I orchestrated to be built, you will all have to look at it now for all of eternity!!! “

Why is this even being discussed anymore when the senior levels of government have both said this is not on their radar for funding, and the private partners haven’t raised a thin dime of their own for their 25% share… and yet project costs have already increased over $50 million.

Then we have this plan to put it at the old Northgate building… what, really. Its on the 200-year flood plain and located in the darkest corner of the downtown adjacent to the biggest social ills in Northern BC. Absolutely dumbest location and essentially a real estate move more than anything. ‘What can we put on that piece of property’… ‘oh I don’t know what can we sell to the taxpayers of PG’… its madness.

PAC Off!

But seriously if for some strange reason private money builds this thing put it up by the Casino! Big area there and just maybe they could put some slots in the basement with PAC jackpots! Heck when nothing is playing it would make an excellent 800 seat bingo hall! Maybe the Casino owner could built it!

There aren’t many construction projects that don’t come in 25%,or more over budget. I’m guessing the cost would be upwards of $65,000,000 when complete.

Isn’t the old nor gate building the area where the downtown plan calls for a small creek to run past city hall? The plan calls for a park where the coliseum now stands…have to call up a map of the “river runs through it” plan for our DT revitalization…

Huh:- “But what have the Liberals specifically done for Canfor” .. lets see, basically gave them carte blanche to harvest as much as they want, when they overcut nothing is done to them, not even a fine. So who runs the forests, our govt or forest corporations?”
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Neither. Both are currently run by the necessity to satisfy their bankers.

Just as inane ‘make-work’ projects like the PAC are.

These kind of projects have a ‘financial’ purpose in that they allow the transformation of the otherwise unrepayable ‘floating’ debts of the private sector, (in their totality), to become the permanently unrepayable ‘fixed’ debts of the public one. The ones we’ll pay interest on, for ever and ever.

These kind of projects may be largely functionally useless to all but a very small segment of the population, (just as the 2010 Winter Olympics were).

Or really be of very limited benefit to British Columbians in enhancing our own ability to access what we need and desire materially in our own daily lives, (such as Enbridge and Site C will be).

But they do function to serve the great God of Employment that every one of our politicians of ALL political parties strives to blindly worship and serve.

From the flow of incomes from that employment now, even though it is a flow based solely on mortgaging the future without the slightest chance of repayment unless the whole process is endlessly not only continuously repeated, but accelerated ever more, (a physical impossibility without ever more detriments to all aspects of our lives), comes the pseudo ‘prosperity’ that is no more than disguised ‘inflation’. The cruelest tax of all, for it filches the purchasing power of what you work to earn, and think that you’ll be able to have as savings to spend in the years to come.

But will we ever change it? No, not a chance. Too many don’t even want to try to understand it. They’ll go “with the flow”, as the saying goes. Right down the drain.

The PAC is a good idea for a large city looking to attract talent in specialized areas. However we are not a large city, much less a city that can afford one. How about we try affording basic things like infrastructure first. Once the debt is paid down we can pick up some frivolous items like the PAC. Not before.

So the Teresan fund, land sale money, another increase in taxes are possible areas to get money for this fiasco. If all this money is laying around then why are we seeing huge increase in our utility bills and taxes, and the rain tax..?

Should the entire city of tax payers not be taken care of before we build this thing? We hear about our sewers need lots of repairs, does the PAC group not think this is more important then their building? They want the city to pay approx 15 million with $500,000 a year and see no problem with adding to the huge tax burden we already have ? Do they not understand we don’t need more debt we need less?

AXE the PAC