Once upon a time there was a driving range associated with Pine Valley. On that land now sits a car lot. So where did the money go? Certainly not back into golf course improvements.
As a taxpayer and a non user of the course i see no issue using tax dollars to improve the course. The city can spend $130,000.00 on an american firm to tell them how to plow snow,the $400,000.00 on Shari Green’s city efficiency study, 15 million on piping hot water downtown from Lakeland mills, and of course the 10 million Stolz dike on river road which fortunately the citizens put a stop to. Let’s not forget the Nissan Leaf which no doubt sat parked all last winter as it could not navigate the snow packed city roads.
1.7 million to repair the golf course is a pittance compared to what city hall has wasted in the last 5 years.

The city will not be happy until they see a paved parking lot instead of a golf course. Selll Pine Valley and build the performing arts centre.

Nissan Leaf update please?

Attention Lynn,
You math seems off. A 1.7 million $ upgrade and the operator would recover that over 10 years?
With a pitch n put course? Not likely.
Has pggcc ever had a profit let alone one that big?

I agree with Zurowski, there is no way that $1.7 Million should be spent on this course.

The City needs to manage less, not more. Just sell the course and be done with it.

A ten year contract? Oh good lord, please don’t vote for Hall.

Correct me if I am wrong but does the Prince George Golf and Curling Club also not get subsidized from the taxpayers of Prince George? Why would a club that is membership $ driven get subsidized in any form from the taxpayers?

I agree with Resident – “So where did the money go? Certainly not back into golf course improvements. “

Lets keep things in perspective.

1. The land that the Pine Valley Golf course sits on was gifted to the City around 1946. It used to be the old Federal Government Airport. The land was given to the City to be used for recreational purposes in perpetuity. So the land did not cost the City a **red cent**.

2. Other lands that were to be kept for recreational purposes were sold off over the years, and the ball fields, soccer fields, tennis courts, horse shoe pits, etc; were relocated. Its debatable whether or not the City could legally sell these lands, however they did.

3. The original 9 hole golf course, and driving range was built by a private business, that leased the property from the City , this 9 hole course lease was later sold to another private operater who built the additional 9 holes, and put in a water system. Later this operator moved on and we not have another operater of the course, who I understand would upgrade the course if he could get a long term contract with the City.

Soooooo. Most people (especially JohnnyBelt) have little or no knowledge of the history of this course, and operate under the illusion that this course costs the City money, when in fact just the opposite is true. 90% of the time this course makes money for the City.

The powers to be want to sell this property to private interests because they want it, and the City can make a buck.

This is more about greed than anything else.

Hold your decisions until you get all the facts.

GuessWhat. You don’t have to be corrected. The PGGCC is a semi private golf course registered under the societies act. As such they receive a tax exemption from the City of around $143,000.00 per year.

In addition a few years ago the City sold the PGGCC the Rotary Soccer fields just North of Sands, and West of highway 16 and the PGGCC put in a driving range. Once this driving range was built the City then sold off the Pine Valley Driving range which was a money maker. A few years later the PGGCC sold their driving range property to private interests at a huge profit to pay off their debt and do some upgrades to the golf course.

The City relocated the Tennis Courts that were just across the street from the new Sands hotel, to the North end of the PGGCC, and sold off that property to private interests. In addition they are going to do a $800,000.00 reno to the PGGCC building ostensibly for the Winter Games. So the PGGCC gets the benefit.

There are a number of other things in the works regarding the PGGCC, however suffice to say they have reaped many many benefits from the taxpayers of Prince George over the years.

Good stuff Pal.
Cheers

Despite all of your usual blather on Pine Valley, Palopu, do you agree that $1.7 Million taxpayer dollars should be spent on upgrades for this course?

“Hold your decisions until you get all the facts.”

The fact that concerns me is that the course needs 1.7 million dollars in upgrades. That’s 1.7 million dollars of the taxpayer’s money.

If the course is such a jewel, raise the green fees and let the users pay for it’s upgrades.

JohnnyBelt, It seems whether it is blather, or something else you have a huge problem understanding the basics of any problem or situation.

As I mentioned in my post the figure of $1.7 Million is a figure put out by the City of Prince George, and as any fool knows they could in fact spend that amount of money or more, however the real question is, is the $1.7 million a valid number, or was it pulled out of someones a.. to substantiate the Cities position to sell the course.

Furthermore whatever money needs to be spent can be spent over a period of years and paid for by a large extent by the operator if he/she were to get a 10 year lease.

The cost of putting in a driving range would be offset by the revenue generated by this facility. The addition of the driving range would increase the use of the golf course, and thus generate more revenue to upgrade the water system.

Sooooo JB. Don’t try to cloud the issue by pretending that this course cant function without an immediate infusion of $1.7 million. It can function without any problem at all. All they need is for the City to quit looking after their commercial interests, and get back to looking after recreational/park land.

It would appear that anyone sitting on council that is a member of the PGGCC should not have been voting on anything dealing with PGGCC. It appears it would be a conflict of interest. I believe there are two long term Councillors who are members….

I would rather my tax dollars go to Pine Valley than a “Private” membership driven golf course.

If Pine Valley is such a jewel, it would seem that the users should be able to support it without help from the City.

The fact is that Pine Valley was once a nice course, but is now ugly. Just about every other course in the City is nicer.

Sooooo Palopu, it would seem that upgrades are required to make the course comparible to others in the City to make people want to go there. The only question is, where is that money going to come from?

Why should the City be in the golf business in the first place?

Okay.. They are worried about spending 1.7 million on a golf course…

Now lets see where they stand on spending 50 million for a PAC.

Just so I’m clear – money for the multiplex/cougars BAD, users should pay. Money for the northern Sports centre BAD, users should pay. Money for the Kin centre BAD, users should pay. Money for a run down little par 3 GOOD, taxpayers should compete with private business.
Got it.

Interceptor. While the multiplex is funded by taxpayers, the Cougar Franchise operates in the facility and leases the ice from the City of Prince George. I doubt if they paid enough to the City in the past 5 years to cover the operating costs. We should not be subsidizing **Private business**

The Northern Sports Centre was built with Provincial Government Money, and is now funded by $300,000.00 per year from the City of Prince George, $300,000.00 per year from UNBC, and the balance from user groups. Hopefully they will get to the point that they can operate on user group money only.

The Kin Centre, is a City facility and as such is subsidized by taxpayers, and the balance comes from user fee’s,.

Pine Valley is owned by the City, leased to a Private Operator and as far as I know operates at a profit for the City or at least it did until the City sold off the revenue generating driving range. With a 5 year lease and an option to renew for another 5 years this course would continue to generate revenue for he City. The idea that it has been losing money over the years is a myth.

So taxpayers aren’t competing with private business.

However if you look at the money put into the Prince George Golf and Curling Club, you will see very quickly where tax payers are competing with private business. The PGGCC get a tax exemption from the City of $143,000,00 per year among other things, and is a direct competitor to private business.

JohnnyBelt.

Give the operator of Pine Valley a 10 year lease and he/she will upgrade the course by investing their own money. This is what they have been trying to do for sometime now, however the City would not go beyond a 2 year lease. Hmmmmmmm.

The City is not in the Golf Course business. They lease the land and facilities to a private contractor to operate the Golf Course. Whats wrong with that???

Really appreciate Palopu, your history lesson on the Pine Valley and your view on the whole issue. Factual without being hysterical.

Fair enough Palupo, I will go with that assessment. However, if it is simply leased land then are we (the property “owners”) getting the correct value out of that property. In other words, are we leasing it out to golf at the same rate we would lease it to say a car dealership? Or are we shortchanging our value?

Interceptor. This brings us back to the original intent of the Federal Government when they gave the land to the City to be used for recreational purposes.

The Golf Course is recreational and park land. The City wants the land for commercial development, however they are not prepared to relocate the course. In any event it is just fine where it is.

So if we keep in mind that this land is **recreational land** then we don’t have to be comparing it to **commercial land, or commercial lease/sale rates.**

As an example Stanley Park property in Vancouver is worth hundreds of millions of dollars on the commercial market, however because it is park land it is not for sale.,

I would love to see some real numbers with respect to Pine Valley as opposed to innuendo. How many tax dollars are required to keep it afloat, if any?

It’s clear a major investment is going to have to be made to bring it up to snuff, the only question is, who is going to ante up?

Comparing Pine Valley to Stanley Park is hardly a realistic comparison, but it makes great theatre. The City has changed since 1946, and it cannot expect to be handcuffed based on something that might have been agreed to 60 years ago.

“The PGGCC get a tax exemption from the City of $143,000,00 per year among other things, and is a direct competitor to private business.”

The question to ask then, is why is this group getting tax exemptions when other golf courses in city “Limits” are not???

guesswhat. As I stated earlier the PGGCC is a registered society, and as such is entitled to a tax exemption. The fact that it is the biggest tax exemption for charities, or societies in Prince George makes one wonder.

Perhaps the close connection between PGGCC and the City has some bearing on the issue. They have been receiving an exemption for many many years.

Perhaps its time for the PGGCC to look to solving its own problems rather than looking to the City and taxpayers to keep them afloat.

While the focus is on Pine Valley, the real problem is PGGCC.

I was under the impression the city (therefore the taxpayers) owns the land the PGGCC is on and the club is leasing it for a dollar for as long as they are on the land and as long as the general public is allowed to use the facilities. If they fold or move then the land reverts back to the city. Anyone know if this is the way it is?

I don’t think park land should ever be sold without referendum at minimum. I think in the short term the city would do well to plant some more trees there to get a proper canopy started fitting of parkland.