“I don’t think we can get to $15 dollars in the next year or two, that would be unreasonable for business, but over time, we have to have a target and that ($15 dollars an hour) is a reasonable one.”

Reasonable based upon what? Let’s see the data.

Nice idea in a perfect world but if you want the youth to find jobs this is a terrible idea. Also the value of $10 now will be $15 in the future, so net zero idea.

Good plan John all the best. Sure glad Dix got dumped.
Cheers

PGGUYY

Even at an inflation rate of 3%, it would take 13.72 years for $10/hour to become $15/hour. I think Horgan has a shorter timeline in mind. This is not a net zero idea. Although I’d argue that it may be worthless.

To solve for the number of periods (years) it would take for $10 to become $15 with a 3% given inflation rate, plug the following formula.

Number of periods = (ln(FV/PV))/(ln(1 + r))

Whereby:
ln is the natural logarithm
FV is future value
PV is present value
r is interest rate

It’s always interesting hearing an NDP’ers view of the economy. Raising the minimum wage by 50% will only cause all prices to increase.

Businesses that manage to survive will not eat the costs of the increase, they will just pass it onto their customers.

The minimum wage is in line with the rest of the country. Leave it as it is.

Leave it to a guy like Horgan who’s been living off the taxpayer his entire “career” to come up with ideas that are ludicrous and not even his own. :)

I get a kick out of people who criticize others for “living off the tax payer”, yet seem to have no problem making daily use of and relying on the services provided by and maintained by those who “live off the taxes payer.

“Leave it to a guy like Horgan who’s been living off the taxpayer his entire “career” to come up with ideas that are ludicrous and not even his own. :)” .. and he lives off the taxpayer different than Clarke? How?
In fact, is there a politician anywhere who works for free and DOESN’T live off the taxpayer?

I was in Australia in 2001 and downunder they were paying about $15 Aus per hr for a gas bar attendant and about $17 for a server. And dang it the grub and the gas was as cheap or cheaper there then here. Temporary workers are also paid more to compensate them for having no benefits. And servers etc don’t expect tips either and the service was almost always good and sometimes with a bit of cheeky wit that I enjoyed. SO WHAT THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM WITH HAVING $15 PER HOUR HERE TOO OR IS IT BECAUSE THE FOLKS THAT HAVE A WENDYS FRANCHISE WANT TO KEEP MORE FOR THEMSELVES.

Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 @ 7:45 PM by just my opinion

I get a kick out of people who criticize others for “living off the tax payer”, yet seem to have no problem making daily use of and relying on the services provided by and maintained by those who “live off the taxes payer.

————-

The civil service in it’s current incarnation is an unsustainable drain on the taxpayers of this country. There are way too many people gorging at the public trough. Do they provide a service? Yes they do. Do they provide that service in an affordable and efficient manner? No they do not.

Mactac, 2001 was a long time ago. Do you have any currant anecdotes that would make one believe that Australia is an economic model for all to follow?

I know some true blue conservatives who believe new workers should pay the boss for the privilege of being taught a new job. Trouble is they believe the learning never ends. ☻

Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 @ 8:56 PM by Hartly 2

I know some true blue conservatives who believe new workers should pay the boss for the privilege of being taught a new job. Trouble is they believe the learning never ends.

——–

I’m pretty sure you can find that particular belief at either end of the political spectrum.

Our entire system is broken. Doesn’t really matter though since the Chinese are slowly taking over. :)

“Do they provide that service in an affordable and efficient manner? No they do no”

feel free to provide some sources and figures regarding affordability when compairing private to public services. In addition I would like to see your definition of “efficient” and some evidence of the same discrepancy”

I’m getting tired of those who complain simply for the sake of complaining, without any girth to back it up.

I find these are often the same people who complain about local politicians receiving a portion of funding from unions, yet have no issue supporting/visiting webpages, who receive a portion of their funding by accepting dollars (selling ads) from local politics who get a portion of their funding from unions.

dow7501 google wages in Australia ok. And Oz ain’t any more broke then we are. And the extra $5 per hr their are paid is probably spent in the local economy and they pay more in taxes then our minimum wage earners.

And Hartly I love your thought. I have worked for bastards like that.

dow7501: Do a little research on Henry Ford. One of the pre-eminent capitalists of our history

“Ford astonished the world in 1914 by offering a $5 per day wage ($120 today), which more than doubled the rate of most of his workers.[23] A Cleveland, Ohio newspaper editorialized that the announcement “shot like a blinding rocket through the dark clouds of the present industrial depression.”[24] The move proved extremely profitable; instead of constant turnover of employees, the best mechanics in Detroit flocked to Ford, bringing their human capital and expertise, raising productivity, and lowering training costs.[25][26] Ford announced his $5-per-day program on January 5, 1914, raising the minimum daily pay from $2.34 to $5 for qualifying workers.”

Visionary capitalists believe in a working wage, cheap bas*ards believe in keeping the poor downtrodden. Notice that in 1914, Henry Ford was able to pay a worker more than minimum wage workers get paid today!

and at $15 per hr I bet the TFW program could easily be shit canned

but if you a employer has to bring in foreign workers at least make the said workers landed immigrants with all the rights and privileges of all the rest of us. AS it is now these hamburger capitalists bring in the temp foreign worker and hold them under their thumb etc

herbster,

You can’t just think about the dollars paid to workers, but the level of productivity you can expect to extract from a worker/hour and what kind of value that production will yield you in the open market. 100 years makes a big difference. Ever looked at a 50 year productivity graph for Canada? Pretty dismal story. Looks like the downside of an iceberg.

So Sine look at all the labour bashing that has gone on in the last 20 yrs.

I also know of a university student that made more by enlisting in a Canadian Armed Forces Reserve unit and working a lot less then at a hamburger stand. A couple of summers they sent him for training and made way more then flipping burgers. During the year I think he did one parade one evening and went on a weekend exercise twice a month. And they were very understanding when he was unable to attend because of his studies. I know of a student that was let go because she wanted a week off to cram for upcoming exams at a burger joint.

So No Name … you need to back that statement up … almost every graph I can find shows the Canadian workers’ output progressively increasing while wage rates have been slow motion growth over the past 5 decades … (hard to find stats that go back further) … the standard in the forestry dimension wood has been double the output per worker every five years since the 80s … now, most of that increase has been realized through investments in technology … however, the fact remains that labour costs form a much smaller part of the per unit cost than decades past … the same trend is evident in almost every sector … I challenge you to name one major sector in the economy where the labour cost per unit produced, manufactured, serviced or served has actually gone up in recent decades.

I am not sure but I think that in the 70s there were about 125,000 unionized mill workers in BC now I think the figure is less then 25,000 (please correct me if I am wrong) That is about 100,000 good paying jobs that have been lost. And the forest companies are smiling on the way to the bank.

How many times have corporations said they needed a concession from their workers to stay viable in a downturn in the economy and when things turn around does the same corporation willing reinstate the wages and benefits the workers had before. Not too damn often, in most cases the workers have to strike to regain what they gave up to help the company out in bad times.

If you truly believe in the capitalist system, then you believe that it is a system that allows everyone to increase their wealth by trading their abilities and talents, much as nations are enriched by trading their various products. Henry Ford paid his workers well enough that they could afford to buy a car- so the cycle of wealth expanded.

If you believe the poor should remain poor, then you are a feudalist, with a dark-age mentality. Unfortunately many of Harpers supporters are feudalists that wrap themselves in the banners of capitalism,without really understanding it.

Maybe one of you enlightened quasi-socialists can explain why BC’s minimum wage should be $15 while the rest of the country is around $10?

Said a guy who will never be in a position to make that happen.

JB … why not? we don’t all need to live in a cave.

Herbster … and to finish your analysis, you may consider that there are many wealthy feudalists who enjoy their current lifestyle and wrap themselves in the flag of capitalism as a form of immunity

“Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress, and working together is success.” Henry Ford

Johnnybelt:
ask yourself if Henry Ford was a quasi-socialist or one of the the most successful capitalists of all time.

The yearly gross income of an individual earning the lowest minimum wage in Canada is C$20,696 and the highest minimum wage is C$22,880. That is not enough to buy a car, let alone support a family. No wonder we have to import foreign workers.

Poor old Henry Ford. His name always being brought up whenever the subject of worker’s pay comes up. It seems to me that Ford factory workers are able to still buy vehicles today.

It also seems to me that many people today live well beyond their means in the pursuit of having the newest and best of everything and that the blame shouldn’t be put on ‘the man’, ‘the government’, or ‘the system’, but rather on personal accountability and the concept of starting from the bottom and working your way up. Just sayin’.

Henry Ford was not poor. His life shows that you don’t have to be a mean- hearted skinflint to get ahead. In fact his giant fortune was accompanied by his employees rising wealth, not despite it. Capitalism is not a zero sum game, but very few Conservatives seem able to understand this.

@ just my opinion,

Funny that not one of your Union supporters seems willing to address the excessive wage and benefit packages that are paid to our largely underworked public sector.

Over the past 6 months or so, this site has had posted on it a great many links that clearly outline the wage and benefits disparity that currently exists and continues to grow between the private and public sector.

I couldn’t care less how much a millworker demands in wages and benefits and I also couldn’t care less how much the company offers. They can fight it out amongst themselves. In good times, the workers get more and in bad times, some Unions have accepted rollbacks. If I don’t like the cost of the goods that they produce, I either won’t buy them, or I’ll look elsewhere for them!

The public sector is a completely different kettle of fish and because I MUST pay taxes to support it, I expect to put in my two cents worth!

Let’s look at our City workers, Public Sector workers at the municipal level. Our Prince George city workers have enjoyed wage increases each and every year for something like the past 28 to 30 years!! It didn’t matter one bit what the economy was doing. It good times, our City workers got a raise! In bad times, when many where losing their jobs, their homes, their Retirement Savings, our City workers got a raise!

A raise, an increase in benefits, better pension provisions, it just goes on and on and on!!

Municipal employees, Provincial Government employess, Federal Government employees, it doesn’t matter which group, they are all pigs lined up at the taxpayer support trough, eating a whole lot more that their share!!

So many talk about the gap between the rich and the poor and yet a recent article in Maclean’s magazine discussed how the real battle will be the private sector fighting against the bloated public sector wage and benefits package, with a focus on the excessive public sector pension plans!! Should be interesting as more of the population hits retirement age and the private sector struggles while the public sector spends winters in the tropics, courtesy of the generosity, albeit forced generosity of the taxpayer!

So, to continue, if we want to support the poor and the homeless, those struggling on disability pensions or CPP, those living on welfare, perhaps it’s time to demand that the Public Sector be overhauled from the very top to the very bottom, a complete rationalization of wages, benefits and pensions provided.

Stop the never ending increases! Next year, and the year after and even perhaps the year after that, hold public sector wages as they are, no raises, no increase in benefits or pensions. If you don’t like it, quit your government job and head out into the private sector!

The savings from holding increases in check could then go towards helping those at the bottom. Increase welfare rates for those that truly need welfare. Those that could work, but are to lazy to work should be cut off!

Hold teachers salaries as they are. Direct the tax savings to the education system instead of lining the teachers pockets.

Do the same for health care workers, fire department personnel, any and all employed by government in it’s many pervasive forms! Our public sector workers are doing just fine already!! Direct all of the saving to those at the bottom, if you truly care about those at the bottom!

But that will never ever happen, not a snowball’s chance in hell of that!!

And how does that relate to the minimum wage discussion? Oh, I forgot, it must be Friday somewhere.

This relates in so many ways to minimum wage^^^anotherside^^

Herbster, you are so right on so many levels. I need not say anything else, you have said what needs to be said…too bad some people just don’t see it. You just don’t get it….how capitalism should work and what has happened since 1978. Greed at the top, period. Unfortunately our Politicians are bought by them. The best thing we can do is invest in our people, invest in educating them….clearly! More unions should be formed, however that being said…..morals and ethics of many unionized service workers would be appreciated by their employers (us the taxpayers).

@ Hart Guy

I do not agree with your view, however you make reasonable points. You are obviously very passionate about your stance. For your sake, I can only hope you have found other avenues (besides O250) to try and fight the system which you clearly feel is crumbling.

“Greed at the top, period. Unfortunately our Politicians are bought by them.”

That pretty much sums up most public sector unions as well as the big bad business guys. The little guy is just a pawn.

Worse than pawn…. but rather peon.

You all seem to be missing the fact that ‘capitalism’, stripped down to its basics, is simply a method of determining prices in relation to costs. Every increase in cost, as any increase in the minimum or any other wage would be, has to be recovered in prices. Or if the employer is the public sector, taxes.

If you did not use a capitalist system, where profit is the feedback mechanism that determines what consumers need and desire in the way of production, but instead switched to a socialist system where some omnipotent bureaucracy determined what should be produced and how much you’d be allowed to have of it, most of those who bitch about capitalism would soon want it back. For there will always be a greater efficiency in any system where the final consumer, as an individual, has an individual choice in what goods and services he will buy, and who he wants to buy them from, and a producer has to satisfy that customer or he’s out of business.

The problem we face is not the size of the minimum wage, or any other wage, but rather the other fact that in any modern, technologically advancing industrial society, current ‘labor’ costs, which are current incomes for consumers, are continually being displaced in ratio to ‘capital’ costs as the components of every price.

This results in prices of consumables increasingly being made up more of costs which are ‘allocated’, (such as charges for capital depreciation of machinery, etc., for instance), than costs which are ‘distributed’ (to worker/consumers as current incomes).

What happens now is that we charge the public in prices for all capital depreciation, which is right and proper from any accounting standpoint, but we presently have no way to fully credit the public, in ‘money’, with all capital APPRECIATION. Which is, in reality, much greater. If it were not greater the country could never physically advance ~ we would be physically going backwards, losing more of our actual ability to produce and produce ever more efficiently ~ and we’re clearly not yet doing that. Not on any overall basis, at least.

So if a wage increase to a $ 15 minimum is ever obtained, it will only be a very short time before there’ll be another cry to have it raised to $ 20, $ 30, $ 40, and so on. All that’s really happening, for those that are still working and haven’t priced themselves completely out of the market with their ever increasing stipends, is that they’re working with bigger figures. There is no lasting increase in actual purchasing power to them. And the rate that prices advance will still always be found to be greater than the rate that incomes do. In practice, the overall gap will widen further. And be bridged, while it can be bridged at all, by increasingly unrepayable debt.

This situation would still attend even if the government took over every industry and any profit from it was totally absorbed by government, essentially offering all goods and services ‘at cost’. That cost, ergo then equal to price, could still never be fully paid without recourse to increasing debt, which could then never be repaid, (since business debt, in accounting, is repaid from business profits, and those we’ve just eliminated.)