The chamber’s outrage is the predictable whining from the moneyed class to any notion of sharing the wealth with those who produce it. Tons of evidence that the best way to boost the GDP is to reduce the disparity between rich and poor and to expand the middle-class.

I actually agree – and I am a small business owner/adviser/capitalist/right winger, that minimum wage should be high enough that people want to work. If someone is sitting on their butt right now collecting welfare or EI, the general tax payer is subsidizing their life, and getting nothing in return.

The trick, is what will happen because for many businesses, it could literally wipe out their whole bottom line. Using Stats Canada, fast food restaurants have a bottom line of 3.8% profit. Wages make up 8.1% of their cost of sales. Increase that number by 46%, and the profit becomes .1%. The owner get’s absolutely no return on investment – so why bother.

Thus, That extra wage cost, is coming from somewhere. Some might come from the owner taking less profit, but more likely, is less staff, and higher prices.

Me, I’m for higher prices. Costs about $7.00 to have breakfast at Tim Hortons, if it meant paying $7.25 for the same breakfast, and the person serving it made $15.00 an hour – works for me. But the way people reacted to the HST being attached to the price of fast food, I think I’m in the minority.

So, pay more for your coffee, or, have fewer people to serve your coffee, but either way, an increase in minimum wage, will be borne by the consumer, and by workers (who get laid off).

When I first started in the workforce I was paid $1.75 an hr in 1985 and when I left the minimum wage workforce in 1996 I was paid $9.90 an hour it hasn’t progressed very far since then and I personally don’t think $15 an hour is unreasonable given today’s cost of living especially here in the north.

Raise the minimum to 15 and those making 15 and lower now will have to be raised upwards to 20, maybe 25. It does not just affect those making 10. Then those making 25 see people making not much less than them so they need to go to 35… And so on it goes. Will close the gap on union workers.

People will make more, so buying products made or served by those people will go up, unless you cross border shop, then those businesses make less than breaking even and move their business cross border or close down and retire or enter the workforce.

Better idea is to raise minimum wage by inflation. Keeps minimum at the same base from most unions and the spread doesn’t leave them in the dust.

Increasing minimum by 50 percent does not mean more money in your pocket, you also will pay more taxes and more commodity costs which will eat up the increase.

Seattle has a $15 an hour minimum wage. That’s $16.50 Canadian. Seattle also has the highest level of small business job creation in North America that coincides with their raise in the minimum wage levels to a living wage.

Mr Winters is about creating value for off shore multinational shareholders on Wall Street and not about creating value for local communities or small business operators. This is the guy that was advocating temporary foreign workers in the resource sector as the only way to make industry locate in the BC resource sector a while back. I can’t understand why anyone in a small business service sector would ever want their name associated with Mr Winters and his agenda….

Raising the minimum wage is completely different from the HST fiasco. HST was about taxing the gross earnings of the small business service sector in a kind of wealth transfer to the large multinationals that do most of their services in house through internal transfer pricing… it was a regressive taxation policy that put the burden on small business start-ups before they ever produced profits, which studies show kills small business start-up growth in its infancy.

The cost of HST to a service sector small business start up was twice what the cost would be to raise the minimum wage to a respectable living wage of $15 per hour. Of course Mr Winters was on the wrong side of both issues preferring instead to tax small business and pay welfare to those who can’t make it on the slave wages offered by taxing those left working… but not the multinationals full of foreign workers paying profits to Wall Street.

I for one have no problem paying 3% more at a fast food outlet to see them making 50% more and a dignified living wage that doesn’t require government subsidies.

I have a simple task for Mr. Winters. Provide some meaningful examples of business closures based on the last increase to the provincial minimum wage.

Business (especially the large multinational chain fast food outlets) work within the legislation and legal parameters of each locale and yet continue to expand around the world. Change the minimum wage parameter and business will adjust. Leave the minimum wage level alone and we will continue to have increasing rates of poverty and all of the associated costs.

There’s no valid reason why BC’s minimum wage needs to be 50% higher than anywhere else in Canada.

The people supporting this increase are the same people complaining when prices and taxes go up.

“Aaron Ekman, newly elected secretary treasurer of the BC Federation of Labour, calls Winter’s analysis disappointing, yet predictable.”

Almost as predictable as Mr. Ekman’s response.

JB … Your second statement is false as I have NEVER complained about increased taxation or prices. And I support the increase. Rhetoric based on generalities and stereotypes usually fails.

Regarding your first statement, I have several questions for you. What is your fear of leading? Or should we just keep focusing on the race to the bottom?

Appears JB is another time dimension .. his posts show up much later than the time stamp. My comments referred to his 1:14 post.

How can the chamber of commerce members make tons of money of the workers back if they increase minimum wage to $15. Right now they are raking it in by only paying $10. Any raise in minimum wage is immediatly passed onto the consumer by these greedy business owners… hell with people making a living wage.. I want my 3rd house and all my toys. How greedy of them to be able to live off a wage.. blasphemy I tell you

“Me, I’m for higher prices. Costs about $7.00 to have breakfast at Tim Hortons, if it meant paying $7.25 for the same breakfast, and the person serving it made $15.00 an hour – works for me”

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I’m with you ski51. I could easily absorb that fifty cents and if it meant that the workers there could afford to put better food on their table, upgrade their skills through education/training or buy their kid a new jacket for Christmas, I think it’s a good outcome.

There are a number of realities we have to find a way to deal with here:

1) Many small businesses simply cannot absorb a large increase to staff wages. Their bottom line can’t absorb it and they can’t lose money in order to do it.

2) $10.00 per hour working full time works out to about $20K per year. It’s unrealistic to expect people to live on that type of wage, especially if they have children. It’s even more ridiculous to tell these people to go back to school to get training, when their wage level can’t fund it, nor can they take the necessary time off to do it.

3) Not everyone in our society is going to find a mid to high paying job. It’s just the way it works. And people with a mid or high paying job telling those who don’t have one to “buck up and work harder” isn’t a solution. It’s a platitude. It’s not a solution to a serious issue.

We have to find a way to ensure that people who are actually working full time, can at the very least maintain a basic standard of living. We’re all in this together and it does the country no good if everyone is not part of the solution. I will have to give a bit, business will have to give a bit band labour will have to give a bit.

Keep in mind Canada has a fair share of big box companies that jerk employees around with the part time, full time game. If everyone was offered a 40 hour work week at the current hourly rate things would be much better all around because the employee is now making a livable wage at a single employer.

Too many folks need three jobs to make ends meet, when having one good job with reasonable hours would work much better. What good is $15.00 per hour when you only get 4 hour shifts scattered randomly throughout a week. It’s a matter of perception.

Professional you make a valid point. There are too many business (large and small) that skirt around employment standards by only offering P/T work. This allows them to avoid paying any kind of benefits after 3 months. Perhaps the minimum wage wouldn’t be as large of an issue if benefits were paid, and the employee didn’t have to scramble around trying to get from one P/T job to another. The companies might even get longer employee retention.

British Columbia currently ranks 3rd out of the 10 provinces for highest after tax income, behind Ontario and Alberta. Just 4 years ago, we were the worst. I think you have to view this through our system of taxation, which for the most part is pretty fair. Under the current tax system, if the minimum wage jumped 50%, I don’t think people earning that wage would be that much better off and the trickle-down effects of instituting it might do a lot of damage to the entire economy. Their income tax rate would almost double and a lot of the exemptions and rebates that they now enjoy would start to be cut or eliminated altogether.

Rate/hr hours Gross tax rate taxes net net/hr
$10.25 2,000 20,500 7.84% $1607 $18,893 $9.45
$15.00 2,000 30,000 12.72% $3817 $26,183 $13.09
$20.00 2,000 40,000 14.79% $5917 $34,083 $17.04
$30.00 2,000 60,000 19.30% $11580 $48,420 $24.21

At $15/hr, you will have to start paying for BC medical to the tune of $614/year. If you make $1 over $30,000, you’ll pay $864/year for a single person. GST/PST, BC Low Income Climate Action Credit, these things all start getting curtailed as you start to rise above the low income cut off. The actual $/hr figure you need to start earning before you can start to climb out of poverty is much higher than $15/hr in reality, but people aren’t supposed to stay there. That’s the whole point. For those unfortunate souls that have physical or cognitive issues that keep them there, well that’s what we have social programs for. At minimum wage, you don’t pay for medical. You get rebates on the minimum amount of sales taxes you do pay. You can apply for housing assistance, etc.. You don’t really pay tax at all, except for E.I. and CPP premiums. For everyone else, there is absolutely no reason to stay at that level of income. I know cocktail waitresses that make more money than I do from their tips and I’m a professional. They don’t have a pension plan, but they aren’t paying tax on the majority of their income, so I have no sympathy for them either if they have nothing come retirement. I’m sick of hearing the whining and sniveling for a very small percentage of our total workforce. They need to pull themselves up like everyone else, or they can just stay there. I’m not footing the bill though. I worked hard to earn what I do and you can bet I’m not getting a 50% wage increase anytime soon.

Does the Chamber of Commerce think Costco is preposterous? Costco pays more than minimum wage for many reasons. Read this article “Why raise the minimum wage? Just ask Costco ” here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/careers-leadership/why-raise-the-minimum-wage-just-ask-costco/article20839767/

Costco employees earn an average of $21/hr. not including overtime.

“I have a simple task for Mr. Winters. Provide some meaningful examples of business closures based on the last increase to the provincial minimum wage” .. well I did notice a decidedly large increase in TFW at places like Timmys and Arbys, etc.

“When I first started in the workforce I was paid $1.75 an hr in 1985” .. Really? You were getting screwed then unless you are talking mowing lawns or something. I started in the workforce back in 1970 during the summer at Summerland Sweets and I was making $2.50/hr then. Friends that were doing basic construction labour jobs for the summer were making $7.00/hr.

Dearth, minimum wage in BC in 1985 (And had been since 1980) was $3.65/hour according to Service Canada. If you were being paid $1.75/hour, then your employer at the time was in violation of labour standards. I know in the 80’s I was earning $10/hour as an unskilled farm hand. Hard work but paid well at the time.

P Val, I think your comment about greedy business owners is out of line. Most small business owners I know are nowhere near as wealthy as you’re suggesting. Even large corporate brand franchises are owned by small business people who earn comparatively less than you would think. Just because someone is a business owner doesn’t mean that they are making huge sums off the backs of underpaid workers. If that’s the case, why don’t more people just start a business? Most small business owners likely earn minimum wage range wages if you consider the hours they work relative to their compensation.

Huh at 4:18 responds with “well I did notice a decidedly large increase in TFW at places like Timmys and Arbys, etc.”

So what is your point … that TFWs work for less than minimum wages, guess that explains why that loophole got slammed shut … maybe that Cdn workers were still unavailable at minimum wage, maybe that supports a more meaningful increase in minimum wages is necessary … so in the end, you agree; that there are few if any meaningful examples of business closure because of the last increase in minimum wage.

So, chicken little says the sky will fall in while history has shown the sun continues to rise in the land of double double.

Every who thinks a $15 per hour minimum wage is not crazy does not own a business or is in a trade.

$15 an hour is about $17 to an employer or going from paying $22k to over $34k. So where do these business owners come up with an extra $12k per year x the number of employees they have.

This is crazy and obviously thought up by someone who gets a check every two weeks. If you are a business owner sometimes you don’t get a check.

thinkagainplease, so many of the “left wing” regulars here have very little if any knowledge about how hard it is for the average business owner to make a living!

The “left wing” regulars on this site go to work at their union jobs, put in their shift, sometimes working, other times just putting in time. They take their sick days, sometimes not being sick but just wanting a day off. The business owner is usually the first person to arrive at the business each day and the last to leave, even when they themselves are sick!

The left wingers enjoy their vacation days without any concern about their employer, be it government or a corporation. The business owner seldom takes a vacation and if and when they do, sometimes the business gets shut down. Vacations are very expensive for many business owners!

The “left wing” regulars will quit their jobs and move on to another without any concern for the business owner who must now pick up the slack until successfully filling the now vacant position.

The “left wing” regulars go home to their families after working their 35 hour work week. The business owner stays late to do paperwork, pay the bills and prepare the payroll.

The “left wing” regulars worry about what to spend their paycheque on, while the business owner worries about being able to make payroll.

The “left wing” regulars demand a $15.00 minimum wage. The business owner, usually the hardest working individual in the business, working the longest hours wonders how to survive with wage costs going up by 50%.

The “left wing” regulars haven’t got a clue! The business owner wishes they would clue in!!

Cry everyone a river hart guy! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

thinkagainplease and hart guy > OK … nice right wing rants … now get specific, the same task as posed before in this thread > stats, figures, examples, etc. of businesses that went under when the last provincial minimum wage increase occurred …we heard all of these opposing arguments last time the provincial minimum went up and then fizzle, wages went up, business adjusted and life continued.

And Hart Guy… What percentage of the province’s unionized work force currently makes less than $15 an hour? … this issue isn’t about unionized workers … it is about wage earners living below the poverty line and showing up at events like Chili Blanket 12 (reported a few stories later) trying to make ends meet.

Hart Guy’s diatribe brought to you in part by a grant from the “right wing” regulars who enjoy running sweatshop conditions to help feather their nests in ivory towers.

Yes, my comment is just absurd as yours.

The Hart Guy argument has more merit I suppose if it was legislated only some businesses have to pay a livable wage and other could enjoy an exemption. Imagine McDonalds and Dairy Queen have to pay $15 an hour, but Burger King and Tim Hortons got an exemption. Then we could say its an unlevel playing field….

Thats the point about a minimum wage it doesn’t exempt anyone, so the whole class is raised up (unless we are talking unregulated globalism and free trade), and business adjusts with higher prices… a kind of parallel elasticity to the rate structure. It is a step up that is intended to be absorbed by the classes higher up the food chain, but in fairness across the board, so as to eliminate any unfair advantage taken upon a free enterprise market.

The statistics bear out the diminishing return for low level workers over the last 40-years, and the growing class divide in Canada as a result of the erosion of the middle class. Regulating the minimum in the market is a core function of government in a free enterprise society… like it or not. I think its important to considered the historical measure and like statistics.

really frustrating to have prepared an intelligent response to Dragonmaster’s usual moronic and unintelligent post, only to lose it before I could post it when this site refreshed itself. Grrr!

It’s late and I’d like to post something before comment close, so instead of trying to re-do my earlier post, I’d just like to take the opportunity to ask Dragon and Pylot a few quick questions.

Have either of you ever owned and operated a business or have you been die-hard union workers your entire life?

Do you arrive at your workplace first every day, before the other staff arrives? Are you the last to leave and lock up the place on your way out?

Being in the “union”, you probably take your sick days, right?? Even when you aren’t sick, I’ll bet!! Or have you ever gone to work, every day, sick or not, because you have to unlock the place for the day and you have employees expecting to go to work? Hmm, probably not!

Have you ever had to stay late or work seven days a week, to cover for your staff that are sick at home? Or have you ever had to cover for a position that has become vacant because an employee stayed home sick or left for another job without giving notice? Doubtful!!

Have you ever struggled to juggle work schedules, bill payments, government remittances AND payroll for your employees, all the while hoping that something is left over for you and your family at the end of the day? Of course not!

Dragonmaster, you refer to us right wingers as a bunch of whiners! I’ll just bet that you are a real treat to have to work with!! Bet your the biggest whiner at your jobsite and at your union meetings!!

Duh-ragon calling anyone who doesn’t agree with him a bunch of whiners? It’s not like I haven’t seen that before in a couple dozen threads before this one.

continued….

Dragon and Pylot, you assume that all businesses are evil and all business owners are greedy, running sweatshops while living in ivory towers. What a ridiculous assumption, but I expect nothing less from you, especially you Dragon!

Why must business share the burden of lifting the lower wage earners out of poverty??

Perhaps you high priced left wing union loving whiners should contact your local MLA and MP to demand that taxes be raised so that more of your high union paycheque can be taxed and then spent to provide assistance to lower income wage earners??

What a noble cause!! Dragonmaster leading the charge to have more of his paycheque taken in taxes so that it can be redirected to educational and job training programs for the less fortunate!!

Come on Dragonmaster, for once in your pathetic union life, be a leader instead of a whining follower!! Give more of your income to help your fellow man!!

Oh, but wait! You expect the dastardly business owner to do it, not you!

So, give me one good reason why you shouldn’t share the burden with the business owner, the business owner who without a doubt works far harder than you!!

Dragonmaster and Pylot, fighting for higher taxes on themselves to help their fellow man!! I can just see the headlines now!! How noble of you!

Dragonmaster? What a joke!!

He definitely needs new material.

Dragon and Pylot, seems like you want to save the world, save the poor workin’ folk from the big bad business man! Hallelujah!

How about you do it, instead of just wishing that you could do it!!

How you might ask (which kinda surprises me considering that you seem to think that you have all the answers)??

Easy!! Start a company of your own! Get off of your lazy, overpaid, unionized butt! Cash out your pension plan! Use your mortgage as collateral for a new business loan. Cancel your tropical vacation plans! Direct all of your time, energy and financial resources towards building a business that ISN’T a big bad business!

Hire LOTS of low skilled workers and pay them FAR MORE than minimum wage!! Give them all and more than they ask for!! Work 7 days a week so that you employees can have sick days, set up a pension plan for them, even though you won’t have one yourselves!

Sounding pretty good, eh!! What a chance for you to do something noble! But wait, it get’s better!

Pay enormous municipal taxes and fees, pay provincial registration fees, pay CPP and EI, pay large utility bills for the electricity and natural gas bills for your business, pay for equipment, buy or lease a property from which to operate, deal with completion, deal with a whiny and demanding customer base, hopefully as whiny as you Dragonmaster!

Beginning to get the picture! Sounds wonderful!!

Dragon and Pylot, the world is your oyster!! Just think of what an impact you could make! You could lift minimum wage earner out of the minimum wage trap! you can do it!! I’m rooting for you!!

Be a leader, go for it! Or instead, just remain a follower, a whiny, complaining, overpaid and underworked unionized left wing whining follower!!

I’ll be sure to come by to congratulate you and wish you well when your new business opens it’s doors! Keep me posted, ok and be sure to let me know how much more than minimum wage you are paying your new staff??

Dragon & Pylot, I have a small business. Wages make up 73.1% of my business expenses, I have three employees. They all earn more than me with zero financial risk. I can’t raise prices. I’ve tried and the market won’t bear it and I lose business. I want to pay my employees more so they don’t leave for greener pastures leaving me with the double whammy of doing their work while also searching for replacements and training those replacements. My customers, the consumer, won’t pay more. They want more for less. It is frustrating and I take great exception to people that say I’m greedy and profiting off the backs of my employees. I don’t complain about my lot in life. I enjoy being a small business owner. However, if you think it’s easy and can make gobs of money, take the risk and do it yourself. If you’re not willing to do that, then you have no right to criticize employers that do take the risk.

This is going to sound harsh…..Hart Guy you should get a union job and live the good life. Fromg your descriptions of a business owners life it’s funny anyone ever goes into business.

“Why must business share the burden of lifting the lower wage earners out of poverty??”

=================================================

Because this is Canada and we recognize that poverty is something we should all try and reduce, for the benefit of the entire country. That includes business owners.

Hart Guy

In regards to dragon’s usual inane comment, that is a sound I recognize very well from when the kids were small and it is one of two things. Either the soother has fallen out or the diaper is full(again) and judging by the odor the smart money is on the latter:)

As for your disappearing posts, here are a couple of options. In your browser option settings there will a place to disable a page from automatically refreshing unless you allow it, which I do and it works well. If you do not want to change settings if you hit the previous page button after your partially completed post vanishes I think it will reappear. Hope this helps.

The last minimum wage raise was not $12k per employee. If you think employers of small businesses have that kind of money, let me know which business they run and I will figure out a way to purchase it. Just so you know their business Will not be for sale and they don’t exist.

To the comment how many businesses went out of businesses went out of business, lots will not but we will be laying off a lot of people and start offshoring your jobs. Which kill us personally but it will be tough on us because many of our customers just got laid off, as well.

Question how many of you now making $15/hour will not want a raise when minimum wage goes up? How many of you $20/hr will not want a raise. Just so those of you who call me right wing know, I pay over $20 per hour and in tough times I make less than my employees.

I guess I should just lay everyone of them off and shut down but the employees just might be people you know. Not threat but a reality at least to me. This type of minimum wage increase risks me losing my house, just so you know the reality.

You want inexpensive products and services and high wages. That is not an easy balance if you don’t sell oil.

thinkagain…hey while your here…. back to yesterday. What the heck does a security clearance have to do with anything ?

Anyone who thinks that raising minimum wage by 30% is a panacea to cure poverty is foolish. A change of this magnitude at the base rate will have ramifications across all wage rates and when all is said and done the new rallying cry will be Time For Twenty,

Then there are the unintended concequences of higher wages for unskilled work. I’m pretty sure the only skill required to make a fast food burger is to make sure it looks nothing like the one on the TV ad. At some point it will make economic sense to install a machine to cook and assembly the burgers leaving one person in the kitchen to monitor and fill with buns, patties and condiments.

There is technology that allows a retail store to tally purchases as they are added to the cart eliminating the need for checkout cashier.

We could follow Scandinavia and tax the bejesus out of everyone to redistribute wealth but I don’t think there would be much appetite for this especially from the union rank and file- with a big reduction in take home pay they could no longer afford to fill driveway with trucks, boats, 5th wheels, quads, sleds etc.

@DI nice, do you have one? :-)

@tap……do I require one ? ;-)