A prime example of a person being baffled.

Edited for language.

A Guide outfitter area of approximately 1100 square miles northeast of Prince George recently sold for 459,000.
Game Species:
Moose, Grizzly, Elk, Black Bear, Deer, Wolf, Lynx
Quotas:
5 year quota 2012- 2016: Bull Moose – 180, Cow Moose – 30, Grizzly – 9, remainder open
Location:
100 miles north of Prince George
WMU: 7-16 & 7-23
Improvements: Main camp, 4 cabin camps, 1 mobile camp
$459,000 just one Guide Outfitter was given 180 moose over 5 years. that’s over 35 moose a year. and now they want mor

This shows the allocation for one [1] guide outfitter…we have around 245 guide outfitters in BC. Can anyone come up with an explanation on why an outfitter should be getting cow moose allocations? Can anyone determine how many Elk, Black Bears, Deer, Wolves and Lynx they are ALLOWED to sell under ‘remainder open’???

This is pretty graphic in showing how many game animals the BC Liberals are already giving the outfitter in this area and it really makes me wonder what the total numbers are province wide??

They are selling 210 moose over a 5 year period, while we as resident hunters get NIL on our LEH applications year after year after year. The same thing goes on with Roosevelt Elk on the island….what reasonable explanation could there ever be to provide a guide outfitter with cow elk allocations on a species that is under LEH????

The BC Liberals are trying to whitewash this whole thing and it’s a mistake, because we are not going to be quiet about it any longer. The issue isn’t ONLY 60 animals, it’s thousands of BC residents being put into second place behind wealthy guided hunters.

When people from the ministry get so far removed from reality their pay checks should be removed as well. Was that miles or kilometers jim

For the life of me I can’t understand why the media hasn’t exposed what, on the face of it, looks like political favoritism (at best) and corruption (at worst). The GOABC, along with many of it’s members have contributed in the neighborhood of $100,000 to the BC Liberals over the years and in turn have been rewarded with numerous grants from the Ministry of Jobs, Tourism & Skills Training / Jobs Tourism & Innovation for AT LEAST $130,000.

One wonders if the taxpayer isn’t subsidizing the GOABC’s fight with the resident hunter.

Additionally, a number of Liberal MLAs have very close ties to those in the guiding industry, including Mike Morris, whose election staff included a former Vice President of the GOABC.

And it goes on and on…

The more rocks that get turned over and the more skeletons that fall out of the closet the more this stinks. And they’re getting away with it.

HOW IS THIS NOT THE SAME AS POACHING???
Deaddog: So lets get this straight, … the past president and current vice president of GOABC are both registered lobbyists??
The VP, of GOABC is a registered lobbyist who worked directly on MLA Morris’s campaign
GOABC received 80,000 dollars from gov’t and in turn gave 120,000 back to the party???
AND THEN TO TOP IT OFF, …. as GOABC has been crying the blues, saying they have lost success factor (see last few interviews) all along they have known and therefore been misleading the public as they in 2013 had an order in council passed, ALLOWING THEM TO EXCEED THEIR QUOTA WITHOUT PENALTY , AT WILL???????
This would be like a resident shooting a moose off their tag and then shooting one more.. but having a pass and not get charged??? If a resident shot more than there tag allowed it would be called POACHING. How pray tell is this any different.
This Order in Council is the most disgusting move I have seen GOABC partake in.. How in good conscious can these people cry to the residents of BC about loss of success factors, while having a “take what I want with no consequence” card in their back pocket.

Go ahead read the last few lines…..unbelievable.
Stamped March 22 2013 and signed by Minister Thomson
PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
ORDER OF THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IN COUNCIL
Order in Council No. 183 , Approved and Ordered
Administrwor
On the recommendation of the undersigned, thttt=3: by and with the advice and consent of the
Executive Council, orders that the Wildlife Act General Regulation, B.C. Reg. 3,10182, is amended
(a) by adding the following section before Division 1:
Definition
1.001 in this regulation, “Act” means the Wildlife Act.,
(b) in sections 101 and 11.01 by striking out “Wildlife Act” and substituting “Act”,
(c) in section 18.02 (2) by striking out “section 74 (1) (b) (ii) of the Wildlife Act” and substituting “section 84 (1)
(b) (ii) of the Act”, and
(d) by adding the following section:
Exception — exceeding quota assigned to guide outfitter licence
16.011 Despite section 16.01 (i), and without limiting section 60 (2) of the Act, a guide outfitter does not commit an offence if the guide outfitter has a quota assigned as a condition of his or her guide outfitter licence and allows his or her clients to kill game to the extent that the number killed exceeds the quota assigned to the guide outfitter.

This should be a huge issue for the Prince George constituencies in the next provincial election. Resident hunters (including me) MUST turn out to candidate forums and question Mike Morris and Shirley Bond on the ministry’s decisions about wildlife harvest allocations. Something really stinks here!

Natives should band together and shutdown all guide outfitters in British Columbia. Natives are finding it tough to hunt for sustenance because too many prime animals are being harvested by guide outfitters. Lots of Guide outfitters are hard to hunt around. Guide outfitters feel they own territories and try and discourage hunters from hunting remote areas. Lots of the remote guide outfitter seem to have inherited a southern drawl with a hint of arrogance when they inquire as to why your are hunting in their area?

Government has to start looking out for the residents of British Columbia, we the people should be able to enjoy sustenance hunting. At the rate of the declining moose populations in the central interior I would say we are in big trouble if things don’t change ASAP..

Moose are having it very tough from tick infestations to LEH hunts in moose wintering grounds to over harvesting from guide outfitters, moose are definitely on the loosing end. Hunts should never be authorized in moose wintering habitats, moose find safety in numbers from the wolves and with mans intervention moose are unable to group up because of mans interference.

I have had 5 different guilds out in an area I have hunted for 30 years, not 1 of them play by the rules.
The first one would shoot calf moose and use them for grizzly bait.
I have also come across bear scat with corn in it.
Night hunting.
Using motor powered boats on a lake that has a retriction of no outboard motors.
One guide up north of North of Prince George is using a mini chopper to spot Grizzly.
And that was this year; the client was all by himself, totally against the rules.
If the Government wants money make it mandatory for the guide assistants to have to take a course in first aid, orientation, and bear awareness and survival skills. There is a loop hole that allows guides to hire anyone to guide these clients.
This guy can be packing your groceries one week and guiding a client the next.
I know because I have run into them while hunting.

When it comes to wildlife the only thing that is managed is counting $$$$$ when did greed take over common senses?

Steve Thomson must have gained all his economic knowledge from Sears and the Hudsons Bay company. They still are wondering what happened to them.

Most guide outfitting is nothing more than legalized poaching with very little oversight.

Posted on Sunday, February 8, 2015 @ 11:30 AM by maverick 1965

When it comes to wildlife the only thing that is managed is counting $$$$$ when did greed take over common senses?
………………………………………………………………………

Maverick .. I get your point.

However, the real answer in the Canadian context would be about 1500 years ago. That would be the start of the over fishing in the Atlantic cod fishing banks. Even though it took 1475 years to wipe it out. Or a couple of hundred years ago, with the decimation of the bison across the prairies. Or the last 50 years of factory fishing in the North Pacific. I am sure you could add to the list with another 25 entries or more.

Unfortunately, ‘short term economic welfare’ trumps long term sustainability every time.

Sad to think not much effort is put into thoughts as to why the decline until it is too late.

– Climate change?
– Change in weather patterns due to hydro electric dams creating there own weather systems much like the great lakes.
– Over harvesting of timber makes changes to the eco-system reducing the red willow in wintering grounds?
– human spreading the pine beetle via rail devastating vast amounts of forest throughout the central interior. Again changing the eco-system.
– Over harvesting of prime animals from guide outfitters. Not only moose but everything from moose to wolves. Hunting wolves play a big part in controlling pack sizes. Shooting the alpha males or females causes the pack to breed uncontrollably until new alphas are established within the pack.

Government needs to change their way of thinking and it needs to change now! Obviously the text book theories isn’t working very well in any aspect from wildlife to mining.

A few days ago the guides were whining about being unfairly singled out, waaaaaaa. Here are some examples that have happened to me or others over the 40 plus years of hunting in this province. I am a tax paying resident hunter that has a licence in my back pocket to allow me to hunt where ever I choose to hunt. Example: guides paying off bush pilots to not take you into remote lakes within the guides designated areas, building boomsticks so the float planes cannot land. Out and out vandalism, burning down camps, disabling vehicles ie shooting them up, flattening tires, breaking off mirrors. Even confrontational with father and son – telling them this is their territory and not to be seen in this area again or else bodily harm will come to them. Vicious assaults, digging trenches across the road to keep resident taxpaying resident hunters father and son out of their so called territory. Sometimes even digging trenches even when they know there is a vehicle down the road therefore stranding the vehicle as there is no access to get out. Hunters getting buzzed by their spotter planes to scare off any game in the area. Shooting into the bush and off the lakes to drive any game out of area. So if you believe that guides are purer than the driven snow look again and go do some homework. Talk to the resident hunter. Many have been charged with wildlife infractions.

Yeah I thought I was the only one experiencing that kinda welcoming “ice”. Get a chance to talk with any of them? Notice a southern drawl by any chance?

an increase of 60 animals is not warranted, zero is what it should be. shooting over their allotted quota, and not being charged who was the whizz/bang that dreamt this one up??? KRISTY CLARK IT IS TIME TO OVERHAUL THE COMPLETE WILDLIFE ACT WITH PUBLIC INPUT NOT SOME SECRETIVE CLOSED DOOR MEETING. REMEMBER GORDO OPEN AND ACCOUNTABILITY!!! ONCE you lose it the wildlife its gone for a very long time. PEOPLE just don’t flock to BC to see the pine beetle they want to see an ELK OR MOOSE.

NOW that ive had a couple of hrs. to settle down some of you may think that im fudging the truth a wee bit and to be honest with you I wish I was!!! THESE INCIDENTS truly did happen and there is no just call for any of this BS. ONE other thing that the guides do is, any unused tags they either give these to friends or charge the royalty fee to show govt. that they are using up allotted # of tags. SO rather than turning these in at the risk of getting their quota reduced they say that they were all used up. NOW THEY WANT MORE TAGS AT THE B.C. TAXPAYING RESIDENTS EXPENSE,SMELLS LIKE A HERRING TO ME!!!

This topic is sure getting traction. Lets hope it doesn’t quit and the government has its way. This kind of reminds me of when West Fraser and Canfor over cut their quota out west by a million meters a couple of years ago. What happened ?”nothing” just don’t do it again. Industry having it their way is not always the best.

How many of you noticed the lack of moose in this area last season?
How many of you noticed the population of moose over the last 3 years has dwindled down to nothing? I hunted 7-15 and 7-12 last year with no luck, saw no moose, and very few fresh tracks. I’ve hunted this area for 50 years and I’ve never seen the moose population take such a nose dive.
What I am not seeing in these posts are any requests to shut the moose hunt down for five years and let it replenish. We’ve shot a lot of calves, two point bulls, and we expect these old mature moose to carry on replenishing the herd?
I agree BCGOA has got greed on the plate, but I’m not seeing anyone saying, well maybe we should conserve for a while, you know, as in conservation of our wildlife?
We keep wanting things that may not be there in the future if we don’t stop and give these animals a break.
And perhaps its time for you posters to contact Mike and Shirley’s office and lay out your concerns face to face town hall style, because bellyaching on the internet ain’t gonna change a thing.

Hi Jim,

I appreciate receiving your input and thoughts with respect to government’s decision on wildlife allocation.

This decision was made after years of consultation with representatives of the BC Wildlife Federation, the Guide Outfitters Association of BC, MLA’s, government staff and other stakeholders. As a longtime resident hunter myself, and now in my role as a MLA, I have been part of the discussions, and after weighing all of the information that I’ve been privy to, I fully support the decision the Minister has made with respect to wildlife allocation. This, despite my frustration with the current LEH system and the fact that I haven’t been successful in getting a draw in at least the last dozen or more years.

After putting my personal bias aside, I looked at this issue from a wider perspective, understanding that the diversity of wildlife populations in BC are second to none in Canada, and like all other provincial natural resources, we need to consider the interests of all British Columbians.

Recent statistics indicate that BC has slightly over 100,000 licensed resident hunters, generating millions of dollars annually to the provincial economy in pursuit of their hunting activity. The guide outfitting industry also generates millions of dollars to the BC economy, employ over 2000 people, many in remote areas of the province, and donate thousands of pounds of wild meat to local charities. Although the Guide Outfitter industry caters to nonresident hunters, they also provide services to a good portion of resident hunters as well.

The question is not whether game species in British Columbia belong exclusively to either resident hunters or is apportioned to both resident and guide outfitters, but how the proceeds of harvesting this natural resource can best be maximized in a sustainable way to benefit the nearly 5 million residents of British Columbia.

There are many groups in British Columbia and around the world that are rubbing their hands together with glee as wildlife user groups publicly debate who should be entitled to kill more animals, demonizing one another in the process. In my opinion, this public debate is doing more harm to our hunting heritage than any other campaign initiated by anti-hunting organizations.

We need to work together – resident hunters, Guide Outfitter Association of BC, BC Wildlife Federation, the BC Trappers Association, the resource industry and government, to enhance our wildlife populations and manage our habitat more effectively. We need to work together to better administer wildlife harvesting in the province to ensure it is done sustainably, effectively and efficiently.  We need to collaborate to establish new processes, systems and structure to reflect this.

As a resident hunter, trapper, outdoor enthusiast and a grandfather, I want to do everything we can to ensure future generations have the same outdoor opportunities that we have enjoyed.

MIKE MORRIS, MLA
Prince George-Mackenzie
( Phone: (250) 612-4194
Ê Fax: (250) 612-4191
7 E-Mail: mike.morris.mla@leg.bc.ca
* Address: Unit 102 – 1023 Central Street West, Prince George, BC  V2M 3C9
http://mikemorrismla.ca/

It would be immensely interesting to have a list of all the hunters the guides have taken out [or taken money from] in the last 5 years.

Ask yourself why a guide outfitter needs Roosevelt cow elk tags….and cow moose tags….should we really believe that a wealthy hunter from a far away place comes here to shoot a cow elk or a cow moose??

“As a resident hunter, trapper, outdoor enthusiast and a grandfather, I want to do everything we can to ensure future generations have the same outdoor opportunities that we have enjoyed”.

What about sustainability Mike? I am finding it hard to believe that you even have a clue how bad it is out there.

I have chosen not to hunt for the past 9 yrs because I could see a huge decline in the moose population.
Allowing guides to harvest even more of the mature stock only adds to the demise of our moose.
Sounds like you are only making judgements on hear say without being aware of the reality of this situation. I agree with “Grizzly2” maybe it is time to close hunting down for an indefinite period until there is sustainability.

“Ask yourself why a guide outfitter needs Roosevelt cow elk tags….and cow moose tags….should we really believe that a wealthy hunter from a far away place comes here to shoot a cow elk or a cow moose?? ” GOOD QUESTION !

“What I am not seeing in these posts are any requests to shut the moose hunt down for five years and let it replenish” .. and the next question would be, WHO is it going to be shut down on? Because you can be guaranteed that the natives will not accept having to stop hunting entirely because they have been told it is their right for sustenance. And the gov’t doesn’t have that backbone to enforce a no hunting moose policy against natives. Maybe CN should be mandated to have dash cams on the front of their engines and they have to pay $1000.00 for every moose they kill when they go through the mooses’ habitat, and that money should go directly into moose repopulation and conservation. You have to make EVERYONE responsible or NOONE, you can’t just pick and choose who is going to do without.

Mike Morris, you’re full of **** and you know it. “consultation with the BCWF”? Yeah, back in 2007 WHEN THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT REACHED THAT YOUR PARTY JUST TORE UP. An agreement that gave the guide-outfitting industry the most liberal allocations in North America. But that wasn’t enough, you had to screw the hard working men and women of this province in order to make life a little bit better for your buddies at the GOABC.

This is rich: “After putting my personal bias aside, I looked at this issue from a wider perspective, understanding that the diversity of wildlife populations in BC are second to none in Canada, and like all other provincial natural resources, we need to consider the interests of all British Columbians.”

All British Columbians? Or a couple hundred guides? How much input did your friend and member of your election team Mr. Schneider have in your decision making? Be honest. If not with us then at least with yourself.

The GOABC’s economic impact numbers are pure fantasy and you know it. You’re paying back your buddies. You have to be, as your government’s decision is indefensible when given the FACTS.

Stop insulting our intelligence and remember who you work for.

I believe what Mike Morris is saying. We need to be working together not fighting amongst ourselves. I heard a prediction a year ago that said that hunting would be banned within 15 years. I am starting to believe that it may come sooner. There is no single reason why the moose populations have crashed, there are many factors. The problem now is not who gets what cut but what can we all do to help the moose recover to the numbers there were? Or even have more moose.

If the guide outfitters have it so doggone good why don’t the hunters save their quad/boat/rv money and hire a guide? ;)

jack son…you want more moose the first thing you do is stop the harvesting of cows….do you happen to see the Mike Morris solution cutting the cow moose tags from the guides?? No, what you see is the elimination of the calf season from resident hunters and a reduction in the number of bull moose under LEH, again from resident hunters.

The problem now is not what can we do to help the moose recover, the problem is how do we get the BC Liberals to pay attention to what tax paying BC resident hunters are telling them. We are telling them you cannot put the GOABC commercial interests ahead of BC resident hunters and conservation. The allocations they are giving the guides is unprecedented in most of north america, why should BC provide more opportunity for wealthy hunters than everyone else?

Ask yourself why a guide outfitter needs Roosevelt cow elk tags….and cow moose tags….should we really believe that a wealthy hunter from a far away place comes here to shoot a cow elk or a cow moose??

Mike Morris: “This, despite my frustration with the current LEH system and the fact that I haven’t been successful in getting a draw in at least the last dozen or more years.”

Why would he care? A quick call to his GOABC cronies and I’m sure they could find him one on an unused allocation. Or hell, it looks like they can harvest beyond their quota and not be charged for it so he’s covered:

“6.011 Despite section 16.01 (i), and without limiting section 60 (2) of the Act, a guide outfitter does not commit an offence if the guide outfitter has a quota assigned as a condition of his or her guide outfitter licence and allows his or her clients to kill game to the extent that the number killed exceeds the quota assigned to the guide outfitter.”

That infuriates me, and it should infuriate you, too.

Jack son: Totally agree that we need to be working to grow more animals. Cutting the residents out doesn’t accomplish that; all it does is create animosity between the hunting public (the volunteer horsepower at the BCWF) and the government / GOABC. After this it’s pretty hard to believe the 3 sides are going to do anything worthwhile together. Gonna be awfully tough to get me to do much; why would I volunteer so the GOABC can reap the rewards?

If you believe anything Mike Morris is saying with respect to this decision you need to do some homework. Once again: This decision was made solely after extensive lobbying ($$$) by the GOABC and has no foundation in fact. You don’t see guide outfitters on here trying to defend it (and believe me, they know this has been posted) because they know that this decision was bought and paid for, and as I said earlier: indefensible.

LEGALIZED POACHING FOR GUIDE OUTFITTERS!

This is a classic case of you scratch my back, and I’ll scratch yours.

GOABC donates thousands of dollars [elections BC] and the BC Liberals gifts the GOABC with thousands of dollars through contribution agreements and improved game allocations…and longer tenures [Pat Bell]….and now foreigners are allowed to own guide territories, and the guides can allow clients to kill more than they are allocated without committing an offence…legalized poaching

and the GOABC donates more to the BC Liberals OR do I have that wrong and they are just giving our tax dollars back [from those contribution agreements] to the BC Liberals in the guise of donations??