Harper has played this deal very smart. The farmers are happy with their billions of dollars in aid over the next 10 years, while the auto workers are worried about job losses. Oh right, unions don’t vote conservative.

This TPP deal is really a corporate constitution that supersedes our national constitution. Through treaty it surrenders national sovereignty on a number of issues from paten rights to the environment and even work place safety. This is about making common regulations across the twelve countries and as such is a lowest common denominator type of treaty that is enforceable against Canadian laws through unaccountable investor state resolution tribunals that will be like the new Supreme Court of the land by and for corporations run by the bankers in the city of London where the tribunals will take place.

One thing I noticed about the negotiations was how America was always dangling Canadian resources, Canadian dairy, and Canadian auto market share as the carrots in their negotiations as a carrot to the other countries for concessions as if Canada was a bargaining chip for their negotiators.

It’s a bad deal. I wish I had more time to discuss it now. It’s all about Harpers stated vision of ‘enlightened sovereignty’ and is essentially treasonous to Candian national interests. IMO

Also I’ve read that the final print will not be available even to parliamentarians for up to ten years after the deal is signed. The secrecy is due to the fact most would object to the loss of sovereignty to a corporate charter if the finer details were made public.

Is there anything Ewart won’t whine about?

There was (surprisingly enough!) a rather pro-TPP article on the CBC of all places this morning. My favourite line, “The odd man out was NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, who seemed much angrier about the effects on the dairy and auto sectors than the dairy and auto sectors.”

“…the auto workers are worried about job losses,” Their jobs have been, and are still being, automated out of existence at an accelerated pace long before anyone even heard of a TPP. Look at the floor of a modern auto assembly plant. It’s a far different place than it was back in old Henry Ford’s day. And it’s no different in EVERY other industry. Including agriculture. The dairy farmers of today aren’t eking out a living manually pulling tits on a 40 acre spread. One in our area just spent 4 million bucks on a Dutch made computerised milker that does literally everything that needs to be done in getting the milk out of a cow and on its way to market, with the animal completely untouched by human hands. Yet we go on and on and on about ‘jobs’? Wake up. Any ‘job’ is a MEANS to an end. Not an END in and of itself. That ‘end’ is the provision of an ‘income’, so that what’s produced can be consumed. Start looking at how else THAT can be done. The alternative is to turn the clock back to when “all craft was handicraft” and real scarcity not un-purchasable gluts was the problem to overcome. Even ‘odd man out Tom’ isn’t stupid enough to want that.

Yes Peter, I’m sure the 12 countries involved got together sometime in mid-September to dream up a trade deal to satisfy all involved. The timing of finalizing the deal may be a bit suspect but I’m quite sure we had more tha 2 weeks to bargain this deal. This is hack journalism at it’s worst, give us a real time frame as to when the trade deal started to come to fruition & the real negotiations began. I get it, you don’t like Harper & the Conservatives but show some professionalism & report on facts, not sensationalism.

Some would want to back even further when all craft was **witchcraft**.

I have a few friends who have a time share in Mexico and have had it for years. They have never mentioned having any problems. Perhaps those having problems did not do their homework.

TPP negotiations have been taking place for years. 19 meetings between 2010-2013. and 23 meetings between 2013-2015. The meetings have taken place all over the world and have discussed all aspects of the agreements over and over. Every Country trying to get the best deal possible for their Country.

Canada negotiated the best deal it could for Canadians. This was no easy feat considering all the different Countries at the table with their own agenda’s.

To dump on the Harper Government because these agreements came to fruition during a Canadian election, is a bit disingenuous. There was a lot of hard work, time, and effort put into these negotiations.

We cant sit back on the sidelines and watch the world go by, because of our various political aspirations. The elected Government in power, is the Government that makes decisions and signs agreements. This is what they are elected for.

If someone is concerned that Canadian producers aren’t being supported then they should do it with their wallets. When you go shopping only buy Canadian made products. A lot of people pay lip service but when it comes down to paying more to support a Canadian producer or giving up their Toblerone chocolate they aren’t willing to back it up with their actions.

Palopu…

“Canada negotiated the best deal it could for Canadians. This was no easy feat considering all the different Countries at the table with their own agenda’s”

How do you know ? where you there ? did you read the entire deal already ?

Its easy to dump on harper.. he sucks.. and the government was dissolved. guess he is to busy being in bed with KPMG helping all his fellow fat cats steal more money from Canada.

“One (dairy farmer)in our area just spent 4 million bucks on a Dutch made computerised milker that does literally everything that needs to be done in getting the milk out of a cow and on its way to market, with the animal completely untouched by human hands. Yet we go on and on and on about ‘jobs’? ”

You asked an excellent question and at the same time answered it! The answer, of course, is that the computerized milking robot machinery should have been made in CANADA! Other countries are outperforming Canada (and have been for many years) in high tech research, design and manufacturing of state of the art industrial and other equipment. We are lagging so far behind that it isn’t funny and in order to keep us calm politicians are giving us on a regular basis the old worn out catchphrase: Canada is ‘one of the world leaders’ or ‘leading the world ‘ (!) in almost any discussion when concerns are raised by informed people!

We better wake up and realize that we are going to be toast if we do not begin to REALLY compete!

Comrade Ewert is at it again, setting up the ‘Stephen Harper is evil’ straw man argument to stir up the pitchfork wielding crowd. Hey Comrade, this is 2015. Blink and it’s going to be 2025. Canada needs free access to world markets and needs to be competitive in those markets – that means innovation, restructuring, optimization and capitalization. In other words it means hard work, something the economic Luddites and loopy left abhor. Nobody owes you or anyone else a job – it’s your personal responsibility to understand what the world needs in its 21st century economy and fill that need. If you want to make wagon wheels and wringer washers for a living, fill your boots, but don’t blame ‘this government’ because you don’t have a job.

It the Trans Pacific Partnership is such a good deal how come no MP’s from Canada or Congressmen from the USA are allowed to read this document?

Socredible, where is your area?

kitsault. They can read as much about the agreement that is available at this time. They will be able to read more when it is debated in Parliament prior to implementation.

We are talking about cheese, diary products, cattle, intellectual information, cars, etc; etc; Nothing that is actually earth shattering. The primary concern of all those Countries involved is to get the best deal possible.

P Val. I used to think that you were making a meaningful contribution to the subjects discussed on this site, however it seems that your hate for Harper and the Conservatives have effected you ability to reason, or think clearly. These negotiation were taking place during the 2011 election, and are now taking place during the 2015 election., So whats the big deal., It matters little whether we are having an election or not, the negotiations move forward. If every Country stopped negotiating because of elections nothing would ever get done.

Perhaps once the election is over you can go back to trying to be somewhat realistic in your thinking.

Funny vor , you calling comrade ewart ! Or ironic , as it is your hero Stevie that just got out of bed with the communists of Vietnam . They are party to the TPP . We are now bed fellows with the communists of Vietnam and China . Could the PRK be Stevie’s new bed fellows next ? And you call peter a commie . Absurd in the extreme . It’s Stevie that is making deals with the commies .

Wow, even the CBC is suggesting that the TPP might not be so bad! It would appear that Peter Ewert’s head might still be stuck up the left side of his **** (edited for language).

http:// http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada-election-2015-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-auto-dairy-fears-milewski-1.3258048

TPP? Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau said he’d examine it, but emphasized the Liberals were always “pro-trade.” Pressed to say if that meant he approved of the deal, Trudeau nearly said yes by emphasizing that his party was “resolutely and consistently pro-trade.”

TPP? Of course Mulcair is vehemently against it as he struggles to stay relevant in this election. Poll numbers have him sliding and he’s fighting to retain and win votes in the unionized automobile manufacturing sector, among others!

TPP, the disaster that didn’t happen? P Val, as I said earlier in another thread, only time will tell! Only time will tell!

Palopu…You hit the nail on the head “They can read as much about the agreement that is available at this time”. The problem is exactly that. Limited access. Limited information.

Palopu you still havent answered my question of how you know this agreement will be good for canada… where are you getting your info ? also I noticed when I gave a nice long list of how much the NAFTA cost us you didnt respond.. of course you didnt.. because you couldnt.

TPP has already cost us just shy of 5 billion.. great start dont you think?

Actually it is already cost us 4.3 billion for dairy subsidy and 1 billion for the auto sector . The egg and poultry sector should be next . Still it’s peanuts compared to the 34 billion subsidy for big oil and gas per year . Some capitalism eh ?

Just imagine a Canada, where we export nothing and we import nothing!

Nothing in! Nothing out! Happy now, P Val?

Ataloss, how does Liz feel about the TPP? When is she going to lash out in a drunken tirade about it’s impacts on her supply of Russian Vodka or Caribbean Rum?

Since Canada does not have a Canadian owned car and small truck manufacturer Canada is at the whim of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and so on! Harper sold the last GM shares. If they decide to relocate everything to another country like the USA or Mexico (and that is already happening) our ultimate fate will be like Australiand which has no auto industry left. There will be Canadian dealerships but all the jalopies they sell will be imported, as well as all the parts to maintain them. I believe Mulcair is flogging an industry which will stay alive just a bit longer with heavy tax infusions (corporate welfare at its finest, Tom) from the Canadian taxpayer. The CBC is asking today if 1 billion dollars would be enough to keep the industry in Canada – 100 million per year for the next ten years! Answer is No. Why does that immediately remind me of the pine beetle fund (promise 1 Billion, 100 million per year) of which we received only 200 million. We are still waiting for the remaining 800 million…

Liz being good at doing the numbers , knows that this is an incredibly bad deal for canada . It shows that you know little if anything about business and how it works when it works . If ones industry does a good deal there is no need for subsidies . Stevie just spent 4.3 billion dollars to buy the votes of 12,000 dairy farmers . Our money to buy Stevie votes . Is this capitalism at work ?

Hart Guy.. just think of Canada where all politicians are truthful and tell us how it really is… So we really know how these trade agreements will affect us.. Strange idea dont you think.

All I know for sure is.. the TPP has cost us 5 billion.. and thats without lawyer costs.. and it was just signed..

I am all for FAIR trade.. but when you trade with countries with slave labour can you ever win ?

I guess what I don’t get, is Peter being upset at the timing. So, considering Harper can’t ratify it without a majority – what timing would you prefer. We find out about it now – and can vote NDP to stop it, or we found out about it after the election – when it could be Trudeau/Harper approving it. If Harper was really that powerful, and if this deal is really that bad and is just in place to line the pockets of Harper’s friends, he’d have got his TPP buddies to say nothing until after the election.

One of you commented about why don’t we make milking machines in Canada – because we don’t have enough cows to justify the billion or so in research in construction to develop that industry – someone else has already done it – easier to buy from them. But if we’re going to insist on being a no trade nation – get out your textbooks from the 60’s and 70’s and read about when Trudeau heavily subsidized inefficient Quebec industries to accomplish the very thing you now want Harper to do – protect inefficient industries so we can pay more in taxes, and pay more for the goods we do import.

The problem with the TPP is not the timing, that’s just an unfortunate coincidence. The problem is that it is a terrible deal for Canadians. It is NOT a trade deal; it is simply corporate welfare.
The TPP has been negotiated behind the backs of the populations affected while implementing extraordinary undemocratic measures to keep them in the dark. Through this process corrupt corporate lobbyists have negotiated the gutting of patent legislation and the forced everyone’s copyright legislation to conform to the appalling US laws
Far worse is the sabotage of the abilities of democratic governments to regulate in the public interest. It gives multinational corporations the astounding ability to sue the shit out of governments which try to defend their citizens. A secretive panel of corporate lawyers will be able to overrule the will of parliament, even a Conservative parliament, and destroy Canadian legal protections.
This is called investor-state dispute settlement and it’s already being used by corporations in other parts of the world to extort taxpayers’ money from national governments. For example, The Australian government legislated that cigarettes be sold in plain packaging with health warnings; but then they signed a trade agreement with Hong Kong that includes investor-state dispute settlement and now the Australian people are being sued for billions of dollars by tobacco giant for the loss of what it terms it’s “intellectual property.”
Every arena of Canadian life is vulnerable to investor-state dispute settlement, there is no right to appeal even when the decisions contravene acts of parliament or Supreme Court rulings, citizens affected by the proceedings do not even have standing to appear before the tribunals, there are no provisions for governments to make exceptions.
The TPP puts much of the Canadian social contract at risk: it’s not about the dairy or auto sectors, this undermines our ability to maintain a health care system that isn’t American style, it sabotages our ability to legislate in the areas of environmental protection or worker safety, it is a race to the bottom for the lowest standard of anything except corporate profits.
The TPP is a tragic mistake, not just for Canada, but for all the world.

Harper is spending more of my money to subsidize more big corporations who are going to charge me more than ever for their products. Tell me again, how well conservative economics work, because I keep forgetting.

P Val. I read your list. (It was painful) Although you mentioned Canada did win some cases, you of course outlined all the loses we had.

I note however that you do not go into any detail as to why we lost these cases. Were we in fact breaking the rules of the agreements that we signed, and if so, then why are you complaining,.

Canada contrary to what some people believe is not squeaky clean when it comes to agreements with other Countries.

For a few people in Prince George to try and re write trade agreements negotiated by elected representatives of various Countries, based primarily on biased information is an exercise in futility.

I will go with the agreements signed by the present Government, rather than some perceived **better** idea put forward by people who are still smarting over loosing the last election.

If by some miracle (and indeed it would be a miracle) the NDP formed the next Government it would be interesting to see how they would handle this situation. They are bereft of ideas, other than to collect their pay cheques, calculate their sick days, their holiday benefits, overtime, and checking the dates of statuory holidays.

Oh the blinded ConservaHoes……Bend over more harper is not done with you yet….the Old stock is dun for ….he can move to isreal to go live in a mud hut….where he belongs!! harpers rule is no more …..next gov. will take 4yrs to clean up his mess .if this is possible…

Palopu so then why did we sign NAFTA if we couldnt follow it ? How stupid is that..sign a contract you know you cant live up to. Also rather interesting that the USA has not lost a case but both Mexico and Canada both have.. something smells rotten dont ya think.

Lets hear from our ConservaHoe candidates….they do answer the phones ..some up for meetings…they are fart smellers…..and bob z lets hear from you!! tell us how great your leader is….Proven ,LIAR<CHEATER<THIEF…He fears the voters and they show up in force this time round…you betcha…..

“One of you commented about why don’t we make milking machines in Canada – because we don’t have enough cows to justify the billion or so in research in construction to develop that industry – someone else has already done it – easier to buy from them.”

Don’t know if you actually believe that or if you are saying that just to stir the pot a bit!

There you have it! We do not have enough cows? Unbelievable! Would the thought occur to anyone in Canada that we engineer and build a better one for home use AND export?

Denmark is a very small country, it already has wind turbines all over the country side! Yet, Denmark is one of the major manufacturers and EXPORTERS of state of the art wind turbines! In fact, quite a few of those are being installed in Canada! More examples if needed.

Palopu writes, “We are talking about cheese, diary products, cattle, intellectual information, cars, etc; etc; Nothing that is actually earth shattering. The primary concern of all those Countries involved is to get the best deal possible.”

You are wrong on so many levels Palopu. I would suggest going back and reading Peter Thompsons post once more. He gets it.

This is not a deal about trade at all. We already have WTO rules that govern trade and bilateral trade agreements where they are warranted including already free trade deals with a majority of the countries involved with over 85% of the GDP in question. This deal has nothing to do with trade.

Yes it allows cheep Chinese made parts in through the back door, and we might sell more beef to Japan until the next cow comes up with mad cow disease… but this deal is about a top down globalist constitution to protect monopoly capitalism and snuff out a real free enterprise economy.

This deal is about massive global corporations gaining legal authority over national governments through back door tribunals.

This deal is about massive globalist corporations monopolizing whole industries and pushing out any possibility for future entrants… such as a small business milk farmer that can’t possibly compete with industrial farming corporations pumped up with the latest steroids, antibiotics, pesticide resistant feed, and slave labor at the tit.

This deal is about moving people to the cities and giving free rein to massive industrial farms, exploitative resource extraction, and the boom and bust economy that keeps everyone beholden to the foreign shareholders. The future will not have family farms, sustainable practices, but rather the children of todays farmers competing with temporary foreign workers for day jobs at the farm.

This deal is about locking industrial counties like Canada into long term drug patents that suck the life out of our health care industry. Its about privatizing services the government provides to Canadians throughout our health care system.

This deal is about dismantling the ability for governments to govern with safety regulations, environmental regulations, free enterprise regulations, and the whole concept of elected governments as the primary legal authority.

This deal is about a surrender of national sovereignty on a level never before contemplation and at a level that can only be dreamed up in the well financed ‘institutes’ of the privileged 1% who control the globalist corporate agenda to serve their needs of economic arbitrage through the prostitution of of lowest common denominator politicians.

This deal makes citizens second class to globalist shareholders and was written by and for those same globalist shareholders. It was written in the name of capitalism, but monopoly capitalism; and in the name of free markets, but yet its the greatest threat to free enterprise our country has ever faced.

This deal would make one size fits all across a vast network of nations and regions which have many stakeholders, advantages, disadvantages, cultural, and environmental concerns that are unique to each entity, and so all but ignores those differences as collateral damage in the name of globalist profits.

This deal signals the end of democracy and the notion of national sovereignty as we now know it.

“You will not recognize Canada when I am done with it.”

Posted on Tuesday, October 6, 2015 @ 6:33 PM by Eagleone
Posted on Tuesday, October 6, 2015 @ 11:36 AM by peterthompson

Reality therapy for those who still believe that everything is well, honest and above board.

An interesting side note to all this, is that New Zealand was one of the original countries proposing a TPP. NZ was for many years a net importer of goods, and has worked hard to reverse this trend. Butter was a big part of the effort, and in the 80’s traded their product with many countries. When I lived there they were trading butter with Russia for Lada’s, as NZ did not have an auto industry. One shipment of Lada’s came in with the headlights not working. When they informed the USSR of the problem, the response was to tell the drivers not to drive at night!
I respect the efforts of New Zealand to build its economy, and it has done so very effectively. But as usual, the US has hijacked the process to its own advantage, and destroyed the democratic system it brags about.

Not only that but the US destroyed a hospital with a C-130 gunship even though it was a registered hospital with the US military… in fact built by the US military.

————

“Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) expresses its dismay that TPP countries have agreed to United States government and multinational drug company demands that will raise the price of medicines for millions by unnecessarily extending monopolies and further delaying price-lowering generic competition. The big losers in the TPP are patients and treatment providers in developing countries. Although the text has improved over the initial demands, the TPP will still go down in history as the worst trade agreement for access to medicines in developing countries, which will be forced to change their laws to incorporate abusive intellectual property protections for pharmaceutical companies.”

Prince George wrote:- “There you have it! We do not have enough cows? Unbelievable! Would the thought occur to anyone in Canada that we engineer and build a better one for home use AND export?

Denmark is a very small country, it already has wind turbines all over the country side! Yet, Denmark is one of the major manufacturers and EXPORTERS of state of the art wind turbines! In fact, quite a few of those are being installed in Canada! More examples if needed.”
========================================================================

Canada already has exports of state-of-the-art forestry equipment to the Scandinavian countries, Prince George, who buy the Canadian made products because they’re better than anything their own manufacturers are currently turning out. And those countries are highly developed manufacturers of forestry equipment in their own right. So if you, or any other Canadian, wants to develop a better robotic milking machine than the one the Dutch have already developed, what’s stopping you? Go for it. You’ll have unfettered access to markets in all the countries we’ve signed free trade agreements with, so what more could you want?

Interesting that NONE of those Parties who originally opposed NAFTA have ever moved to cancel it. Which any signatory country to
it can do, apparently, by giving six month’s notice to the other countries that we’re going to withdraw from it. The Liberals made no effort to withdraw when they replaced Mulroney’s Conservatives. Do those who support the NDP expect “odd man Tom” to withdraw from it if he becomes our next PM? After all, it set the stage for all the other deals that have followed. Ones that contain all the same type of provisions that those on the left see as so damaging to
our (their, at least)cherished Canadian values. So are we going to opt out if Mulcair becomes our next PM? Or is he going to wait for an event almost as unlikely as his attainment of office ~ Donald Trump to become US President ~and cancel it first, to restore all those lost American jobs?

Tom Mulcair has no choice, but to oppose TPP. If it ever comes to pass then almost the entire reason for being of the ndp would be off limits under TPP. Mulcair is the only one that understands that TPP is the end of sovereign democracy in Canada. It would be ludicrous if the ndp were elected to government and then allowed TPP to go ahead… but nothing would surprise me.

I can understand the support for TPP by Harper… just look at his lobbying efforts on behalf of the KPMG tax evaders intimidating the CRA into hibernation… or his omnibus bills to push through oil industry friendly legislation. Harper is a globalist of high finance through and through.

I can understand the liberal idea of acting as the weathervane for votes. They’ve played this game before in opposition and always come out justifying the globalist agenda in the end. The insiders of the liberal elite have always been of and for the 1%.

I think it will ultimately be the American people that will kill TPP once they find out their cherished sovereign democracy is the price of this so called ‘trade deal’. Politicians will pile up like a stack of firewood and a tough talking populist like Trump will run with the idea of protecting America from the globalist 1% that would steal their birth rites.

Denmarks windmills. One of my uncles that lives in Lethbridge at one point sold 90% of all windmills in Canada, and all of them were from Denmark. He guaranteed an 85% availability from them (meaning they would produce their rated power output 85% of the time) and had a payback period of 5-years based on the guaranteed availability output.

“Politicians will pile up like a stack of firewood and a tough talking populist like Trump will run with the idea of protecting America from the globalist 1% that would steal their birth rites.”
=========================================================================
Donald Trump is only running for President for one reason, Eagle. To get a Democrat like Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden elected. He works for that “globalist 1%”, same as they do. Or maybe, more correctly, that usual 1% of the 1% who really call the shots. As for our Tom, in the unlikely event we elect the NDP as government, the TPP will be perfectly safe. He has no more viable alternative to it ‘financially’ than any other Party has.

You see, Eagle, even if a Donald Trump cancelled NAFTA, it wouldn’t “…restore all those lost American jobs”. It would kill hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, more of them. Even if you could have 100% full employment, in Canada or the USA, with everyone able to work working, we still couldn’t BUY all the fruits of our labours from the total amount of wages, salaries, and profits distributed as incomes in the course of producing all that we need and want. Not at the total costs that would have to be recovered in prices as they’re presently computed. Even if we outlawed all profit, and tried to sell everything at ‘financial’ cost, if still couldn’t ALL be bought.