The fate of the Four Seasons pool
By Peter Ewart
The Four Seasons pool in Prince George cannot be repaired. It must be replaced. So said Doug Wournell of Dialogue Design consultants at a May 12th public feedback session on aquatic facilities in Prince George. According to Wournel, who is with one of the two consultancy firms recently hired by the city to assess aquatic facility needs, there would be huge difficulties in attempting to renovate the 46 year old pool with its numerous problems and deficiencies. The costs alone would be prohibitive with the construction of a new pool being much cheaper than renovation of the old.
In his comments, Wournall also noted that currently there is a serious shortage of “pool supply” in Prince George, and that demand for aquatic facilities far exceeds existing supply. [Note – a report previously issued in 2015 by another consulting firm hired by the City, Tetra Tech, estimated that, in total, the Four Seasons Pool and the Aquatic Centre had 400,000 visits a year, making it one of the most popular local indoor recreational services (1)].
What about demolishing the old Four Seasons pool and building a new one on the same spot? Out of the question, says Wournall. To build a new pool will likely take about two years and, according to him, “the city cannot survive with just one pool,” given all the ongoing programs and current huge demand. He favours trying to build one in the vicinity of the old pool (i.e. downtown) while leaving the old pool open during construction, but acknowledges that the question of location is one that remains to be determined – that is, if construction of a new pool does go ahead.
Other considerations have to do with the actual number of pools needed in Prince George to meet demand and the specific pool styles (e.g. lap pool, warm / cold water, water slides, wave pools, continuous current, toddler pools, and so on), as well as who the clientele will be (school kids, youth, competitive swimmers, older adults, disabled, cardio-and physio-patients, aqua-fitness, scuba, etc.).
How much will construction of a new Four Seasons pool cost? Both Wournall and co-facilitator Kevin Post, of Counsilman-Hunsaker consultants, said that is a question to be tackled later on. (Note – the earlier Tetra Tech consultant report of 2015 estimates the replacement cost for the pool will be $11 million).
In addition, the consultants appeared to be open to the idea of embedding a new pool within a larger concept such as a Recreation or Community Centre that could include, for example, a rink to replace the also aging Coliseum, and other types of multi-usage, similar to the large community centres found in some Alberta cities.
This idea was also mentioned in the 2015 Tetra Tech report which noted that the City was “working on a recreation master plan, including an aquatic needs assessment that considers strategies and options for multiplex development that would generate efficiencies in co-locating services such as pools, an ice rink, a gym, a library, etc.” (1).
Although these options were not discussed, presumably such a design concept could also include space for an in-door, all-season farmer’s market or perhaps even a re-conceptualized Performing Arts facility. Of course, a larger multi-use Centre will cost more money and likely end up increasing taxes, but, on the other hand, may cost less in the long run than simply replacing, for example, a stand-alone swimming pool and Coliseum as separate items.
When asked about the problem of chlorine and other odors in a large Centre that includes a swimming pool, Kevin Post explained that with modern technology and building design such odors are no longer an issue whatsoever.
What is clear from the May 12th public input session is that many serious questions remain to be answered. The purpose of the session, as explained by Wournall and Post, was, on behalf of the City, “to get input on how we currently use aquatic facilities in Prince George and how we can make them better.”
However, the two consultants from Dialog Design and Counsilman-Hunsaker framed the discussion by arguing in their opening remarks that renovating the old pool was absolutely out of the question, and that the focus of the discussion should be on what needs a new facility could address.
This view appears to directly collide with the conclusions that Tetra Tech consultants submitted to City Council in their report last year. In that report, Tetra Tech estimated that the Four Seasons pool could be renovated at a capital re-investment cost of $1.84 million (between 2015 and 2024), while the Aquatic Centre would need $2.55 million for upkeep over the same period of time.
However, it should be noted that the Tetra Tech report did not take into account replacing the roof of the Four Seasons pool, which, by even a superficial visual inspection, is in bad shape with stained ceiling tiles in the pool area and a brown ooze dripping down into the men’s changing room as recently as a few days ago.
At the Council meeting of July 8, 2015, Councillors and the Mayor highly praised the Tetra Tech report commenting that it clearly shows the Four Seasons pool is “repairable” and that the pool and other city facilities were in better shape than previously estimated (2).
Now, a year later, we have another set of consultants suggesting that the Four Seasons pool absolutely cannot be repaired.
It remains to be seen how, and if, such differing conclusions can be reconciled.
What has changed in this one year period? Last year, the glass was “half full” regarding the Four Seasons pool. This year it appears to be “half empty.” Does this shift have anything to do the new federal government’s infrastructure funding program? Indeed, Mayor Hall did mention earlier this Spring that the City may apply for some of this funding for the Four Seasons pool among other projects (3).
Or does it have more to do with the fact that a number of key city facilities in Prince George are aging and approaching the end of their service life, thus requiring a larger and broader conceptualization in how to replace them?
But the question also needs to be asked that, if federal funding is applied for to build a new pool or larger community centre, will it be done on a P3 basis, i.e. will it be a money pot for third party private interests (as proposed by former Mayor Shari Green and the KPMG consultants during the 2012 Core Services Review) or will any new facility remain publicly owned and operated?
All of this should make for some interesting city council debates, as well as extensive public discussion, in coming months, and, if a new pool facility is proposed, possibly even a referendum.
Note: A survey put together by the City is asking for public input on aquatic facilities in Prince George and can be accessed at the following address: http://princegeorge.ca/cityliving/recreation/aquatics/Pages/Default.aspx.
Peter Ewart is a columnist and writer based in Prince George, British Columbia. He can be reached at: peter.ewart@shaw.ca
- Tetra Tech. “Civic facilities risk framework and condition assessment.” City of Prince George. May 1, 2015. http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/Agendas/2015/2015_07_08/documents/PG%20Civic%20Facilities%20Risk%20Framework%20and%20Condition%20Assessment%20-%20FInal%20May-2015.pdf
- Macdonald-Meisner, Elaine. “City asset survey better than expected.” 250 News. July 8, 2015. https://www.250news.com/2015/07/08/city-asset-survey-better-than-expected/
- Hawkins, Don. “Infrastructure priorities weighed.” 250 News. March 26, 2016. https://www.250news.com/2015/07/08/city-asset-survey-better-than-expected/
Comments
I am confused why there are two consultants who appear to be doing the same report within a year of each other. And why did they come to such different conclusions? One more year of aging shouldn’t have made that much difference.
Pac mentioned with the newer report.
It might be mentioned, but is, in my opinion, a ridiculous notion.
Swimming is a sport. Having several sports facilities together is relatively common.
I think the pool downtown has had its day. College Heights was “promised” a facility such as a pool at amalgamation. It has a large enough population to be able to support a pool.
The Family Y should also have a pool since both reports state that the existing facilities are “well used”.
Why would someone diagnosed with a disease go to get a second opinion from another doctor?
Why would someone who wants to sue another party go to get a second opinion from another lawyer what the chances of winning are?
Why would someone who wants a deck built on their house get a quote from 3 or 4 different contractors?
Getting second opinions from consultants/contractors is actually a very prudent thing to do.
It also looks like the questions posed and/or the questions generated by the consultants are somewhat different. Last year the question answered was primarily whether it is possible to give the current pool a thorough overhaul. Given that, however, the configuration would basically stay the same. In addition, I suspect that the estimate was on the low side. A lot of the problems may not show up until one starts removing the coverings of the underlying structure.
Another consideration is whether the first firm thought that they might get the contract to do the work. It is an easy way to get a contract which ends up costing a multiple of 2, 3, 4 times as much very quickly but by that time the contract is let and it is too difficult to get out of it.
I have been to Kelowna and Whitehorse which have excellent multi-use facilities. They are similar to the Jago Sports Centre at UNBC, but on a bigger scale.
The facility in Whitehorse has an olympic size pool, ice arena, soccer field, walking track and workout facilities. All indoors and the user pay system has a one stop shop drop in fee to use whatever you want.
I think with a winter community it’s nice to have these top rate indoor facilities. The city currently loses a fair amount of money by having all of these facilities in separate buildings. Just from the administrative side of the staff needed to accept money at each facility rather than one entry point for multiple facilities.
If we consolidated all these facilities into one complex, dare I say it, there might even be an argument to include a performing arts centre in there as well.
Having a pool at UNBC would be another option.
Before looking at that seriously, I would want to know much more clearly how well the joint use of the existing sports centre is working. Seems the City is paying a large sum into that facility and I am not sure whether the City is getting its value for money at $300,000 or so per year.
That’s pretty much the model that is followed out here in Ottawa as well. In fact, a city facility along those lines was just recently opened in Kanata (in fairness it is also a fairly high growth area with population over 100,000).
Anyway, this facility has a pool, gymnasiums, an outdoor sports turf field, a basketball court, outdoor play structures for the kids with a splash pad, weights and cardio equipment, multi purpose rooms, etc. It’s also located adjacent to a forested area with a large trail network that can be used for hiking, mountain biking, cross country skiing, etc.
This consolidated approach to recreational facilities seems to be the approach out here now and it makes allot of sense when you consider what mwk mentioned on the administrative side. It’s also “one stop shopping” from the point of view of having one facility that can serve the needs of many users at the same time. That said, this particular facility also had a price tag of over $40M and I’m not sure if that full slate of facilities would be needed considering what is already at the NSC . . .
I would tend to think that a stand alone pool, with perhaps some additional space for other forms of exercise, would make the most sense. You could locate it in the west end, but really, how far is College Heights from the existing pool? 10 minutes down Tyner? The NSC also serves that end of the city pretty well and perhaps a downtown location would make sense. From what I gather, it was heavily used, it’s just in need of replacement.
They will push to build a new pool and rink, right after the PAC.
you forgot the refrigeration of the ice oval
Had council of the day, not wasted all that money on the “frills” of the new RCMP building in order to have a centre piece for the downtown core, we might of had some money left over to help with a new pool!! Round building with square furniture, looks nice, not practical, screwed up traffic flow and took over all the parking around it!! What a waste!!
Out of town architect who was only interested in monument design with a Council and Administration who knew no different.
Wrong location; wrong design; wrong Council members; wrong city planner, wrong architect.
I’d support construction of a new pool way before I’d ever support construction of a PAC. At least a new pool would get used….
In my opinion the RCMP building was worth the money and the city needed a new police detachment. Four Seasons for sure needs to be replaced and I’m all for a new pool downtown, yes downtown. The pools don’t need to be all in one spot that’s just too convenient for many people and causes problems with traffic, particularly at peaks times during events. If we seriously put anymore buildings by the exhibition grounds we are going to need to have more exits to get out. It is already cramped in there and is very congested on Ospika Blvd.
So the extra millions spent making the cop shop ugly was worth it? Those millions could just maybe been better spent on policing.
Lol right. Your reply is useless. I think you’d have a better understanding if you worked in that old crappy small building that housed the RCMP for decades.
Pooker, I agree. New detachment was needed 20 years ago and had they built it then, probably would have saved a few million. Get the pool OUT of the downtown, put it on the Hart, lots of land out there.
Build a new pool or multiplex somewhere and build the PAC at the pool current location. The area is highly visible and attractive for it considerins the other civic buildings close by.
Pullease get rid of this fanciful notion of a pac, until there’s a new pool, and all the aging water and sewer mains are replaced.
Downtown has facilities which are used by conventions and conferences. Several Hotels are in the location as is the Civic Centre. The Coliseum also needs to be replaced sooner rather than later. Also a convention facility. A PAC also can double for convention space.
A pool is not used for that purpose. A pool should be closer to residential areas. In this City, the most populated such region is College Heights which has a population of around 20,000. Couple that with the population to the west, as well as the population starting to be developed along Tyner and existing area around Charella Gardens, the population base is going to approach 30,000. The existing shopping area would be an excellent central location for that part of town. A third pool could be built in the Hart area, although there is a smaller population center there.
The Aquatic Centre can service the bowl residential area plus the special competitive swimming functions for the whole city.
Last census the Hart still had more people than College Heights. College Heights has more shopping yes and potential for growth, but still does not have the population of north of the Nechako.
The downside of having the pools by other attractions is lack of parking, during soccer season the parking lot at the Aquatic Centre is all taken up by soccer parents, during craft and event season the parking lot at the Four Seasons pool is also taken up.
Keep it downtown no matter what. That is the most important aspect.
level city hall and build a new pool in that location ? at least it would be something useful. :-)
No P3 would touch it with a ten foot pole without huge annual subsidization from the City. A private company would simply pocket their profits and not reinvest into the facility over the life of the contract leaving the City with a massive problem at the end of the contract. Short term gain for long term pain.
Pools are money pits, plain and simple, but ones taxpayers accept because of the value they bring to the community.
Patching a 47 year old pool is a huge waste of $$$ and anyone who tells you different has no clue. The 4 Seasons has had it’s day and it’s time to put it out to pasture. The needs/wants of the community are much different than 47 years ago so lets build something that responds to current times, not what worked 47 years ago.
Bang on!!!!
That was the difference between the two consultant.
Tetra Tech is an engineering firm which says this about themselves:
“Tetra Tech serves public and private clients by addressing fundamental needs for water, environment, infrastructure, resource management, energy, and international development services. We provide clients with technical studies, planning, engineering, design, and construction management solutions to address their needs.”
tetratech.com
They are not Planners, nor are they Architects.
The two points of view can both be right, but do not cover the same criteria.
DIALOG is an excellent Architecture/planning/engineering firm who know their business.
This is DIALOG … .dialogdesign.ca. They are familiar with PG as the forerunner firm of HBBH (Hotson Bakker Boniface Haden)
What about keeping the aquatic centre as the city’s main pool and building one or two smaller, neighbourhood pools? Say, one in College Heights and one in the Hart. Just a thought.
I disagree with the keep-it-downtown-at-all-costs approach. Parking downtown is already a huge issue, and while it’s nice to have the pool with the other facilities downtown, parking really is an issue. If it is determined that it should be downtown, council will need to figure out some true, workable solutions for parking. Maybe put it where that “hotel” was supposed to go? Oh, wait, they’re supposedly actually doing something with that ….
Four Seasons is a pit. They did a massive reno on it a few years ago and it was touted as this huge improvement, but really nothing had changed but ceiling tiles, which are failing now. So how cost-effective was that reno? It’s grungy in there, the use of space is inefficient, and it’s falling apart. I suspect that renovating it would be like a house reno, where the true costs aren’t known until you’re already too deep in it.
I agree. Tetra did not look at that. They likely were not asked to look at that.
This City is in bad need of having some staff who know what they are doing and how to get the info to the public without the public getting the wrong take on things such as Peter seems to have done with his article.
Oh those sneaky sly people in city hall they are trying to pull a fast one.
“Although these options were not discussed, presumably such a design concept could also include space for an in-door, all-season farmer’s market or perhaps even a re-conceptualized Performing Arts facility”.
Notice how the PAC was slipped in. That is why the second consultant. Also to make the idea slide down a little better and farmers market was included, what is not to like.
Why not take over the defunct hotel project downtown? Foundation is in, the lot is perfect for location.. dig a hole next to it.
As of a few days ago, according to news reports, the hotel project is no longer defunct.
Even if the hotel is back on some sort of track one cannot simply change a project around from a foundation designed for a hotel development to a building designed for a community pool.
Real life buildings are not able to be changed around as simply as lego blocks. I am sure they hare having to restrict their design which moves it from a structure intended to be used for a tall building to a structure which is intended for a lower height building which may require some adjustments for the first and second storey of a different type of hotel with different room/suite sizes.
I’m in favor of keeping one pool in the downtown area. Simply for the kids. Many kids are required to walk to their destinations. Perhaps a single mom without a vehicle or no gas and the kids still want to go swimming. Four seasons location is perfect for children without transportation or even single moms without a lot of money for fuel.
It is so much easier for families in the downtown core to access the four seasons over making their way to the aquatic center. The aquatic center is just not centralized!
I would like to see it rebuilt with the coliseum as one unit. And keeping it in the downtown is a must.
My thoughts.
If the Four Seasons pool is in such poor condition, then replace it.
Who says there has to be a grand design with many features, to suit a number of varied uses? (aka tens of millions of dollars)
Build one or two new pools, no frills.
Make them of Olympic size so they can take themselves seriously, but no fancy multi-use facilities. Think of the increased yearly maintenance costs for a new Taj Mahal. Build a pool. Then spend the saving on other crumbling infrastructure.
metalman.
Pools are a big tourist draw in PG. Most northern communities have minimal pool options so when they come to PG for shopping and other services the pool is a big draw.
I think build one with a good kids pool like four seasons and some indoor water slides. I notice the Aquatic centre could serve well enough for the swim lanes and diving boards that are under utilized.
IMO PG should partner with Pine Center for a pool and hotel addition behind the mall next to the golf course. Maybe add a plat land thing for kids and some movie theatres and grow the whole concept into a real tourist draw for PG that also meets our recreational needs as a city.
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