It wouldn't do much good with our current penal system...10yrs at club med, one heck of a deterrant! Perhaps if they created some penal institutions in the far north where the inmates had to build their own log cabins to live in, grow their own food, pack water from the stream,and use mudpacks to keep the bugs off.... things might not be so rosey and they would be less likely to re-offend. Not to mention the costs associated with this type of incarceration wouldn't come close to the costs of our current Hiltons on the Hill.

Why not fix the immigration problem while were at it. Deport any Canadian citizen that is new to this country within the last ten years caught for drug trafficking violations. The gang banging would almost disappear over night. Traditional Canadians don't require a 'gang' to do business... only the weak foreigners and their even weaker Canadian associates who use the fear of their numbers and their cruelty to manipulate market share.

In most cases I believe it is foreigners that are at the head of the import/export of the Canadian gang scene through their traditional ties to the home country. Whether it is Russians, Poles, Italians, Indians, Paki's, Chinese. Mexicans, Americans, or Nigerians... or any other number of nationality... they all import their crime into our nation through our cheepend citizenship rights we water down to serve their interests.

Well said Ben and bang on!
Severe penalties are the ONLY deterent, but the real mystery is why our elected leaders fail to see that.
Or do they not care?
What are they afraid of?
Obviously, there things at work in politics that the average joe knows very little about,because there IS something missing here!
And Eagleone also has a valid point!!!
The solutions need to come from the top down!

Yeah, it has worked so well in the United States they are now exporting the "Gangsta" lifestyle to Canada. Keep trying things that have been done over and over and expect different results. Come to think of it, that is the definition of insanity is it not? We do not need band aids, we need root cause solutions.

I agree that our entire justice/legal system requires an overhaul.

There is something wrong when everytime a criminal is caught and sentenced that the general population is outraged with the resulting minimum penalty.

The excuses of prison capacity, costs of incarceration and human rights are apparently far more important than public safety and protection of property of ordinary people.

The fundamental shift that is required IMO is the REQUIREMENT of a restitution based objective rather than simple jail time.

Criminals which are convicted should not become a choice of letting go because it is too expensive. Our current jails simply do not act as sufficent deterant and it costs us a fortune to keep these people.
The money is a huge element in this justice system and that is what needs to be totally rethought.

When you ask the question of how much "time" should be served for stealing a car?-- there should be a correlation between the value of the car and the "magnitude" of the penalty to be served. Magnitude rather than duration is something that is currently not a part of our penal system. The worst criminals recieve similar treatment as anyone and this is no deterant to the serious offender.

Hard labour prison is a deterant to those who choose to steal (because they won't work) and the value of their work should go towards the restitution to their victim(s).
The drug problem requires a special approach as this is a core creator of enormous levels of crimes. The user needs to be as important a target as does the dealers. If this takes mandatory drug testing--so be it.

It shouldn't cost us a dime to keep someone in jail as they need to work to sustain themselves and the prison and the surplus of this go to restitution. The time served would be simply the time required to repay the amount which the person stole or the magnitude of the offence towards another person.

I believe this to be the right way for these criminals to say they are sorry to their victims--rather than raising their taxes.

Start by removing 'gangsta rap' from the airwaves and the video networks, having that garbage on the radio or tv softens us up to the point of making it (the gangster image, the benifits of that lifestyle) acceptable in mainstream lifestyle. This is akin to the 'Angels doing good deeds like the toy runs, joe public sees the bad lookin' dudes doing charity work like that and comes away with an imression that those people don't seem to be too bad, maybe they are just getting a bum rap. These gangs are creating and feeding off of rot in the social fabric of our society, and the only tool we have to deal with them is law enforcement. Harsher penalties for drug/gang related crimes must be permitted.
metalman.

You got it Ben. So why dont they fix it? I guess larger prisons dont get to many votes at election time. Its more prudent to get more police and bigger cop shops as we are doing in our City. We have to do it that way to control our crime stats. Its putting the cart before the horse.

Cheers

I don't believe that longer sentences and hard labour is a deterrent to crime of any kind. Just look to the south. A lot of states still have the death penalty. Does that stop the murders? Not a chance.
The only way to weaken the gangs is to take the profit out of the drug trade. Legalize the soft drugs such as marijuana and hashish, and regulate the hard drugs. It's already done with drugs like morphine,oxy-contin, ritalin, etc.
Drugs are responsible for most of the crime on our streets. Its not going to stop by putting the drug dealers in jail longer. More will just take their places, as long as there's money to be made.
I think the idea of having a probationary period after one gets citizenship is a great idea. Many of the gang-members don't even have citizenship though. They should be immediately be deported for the slightest infraction. The people in the Asian gangs have no regard for human life, possibly because of all they witnessed growing up in their countries. They should not be allowed to bring their callousness to our country.

Yes, drugs do have root causes in poverty and in mental health. If you want to "fix" this problem you will have a long uphill battle.
However, drugs are not always the reason people steal. Some steal to eat and get a warm dry place to sleep. Some steal because they think that they are so brilliant to come up with a scheme and execute it. Some steal because they it is "cool". Some steal because their value system allows it. Some steal because that is how they have learned to live and survive.
The drug problem does need attention, but gangs are in the drug business because it is an illicit business worth billions. Legalizing and regulating recreational drugs may reduce the opportunity for gangs to be involved, but will not completely remove them from the game. The arms industry is legal and regulated, yet some of the largest dealers are various global gangs such as the triads and the Russian mafia.
Jail time is not the answer for gangs either because when they do go to prison, their gang has a chapter in the penal institution. the only sure way to deal with gangs is with lethal force during ANY gang related confrontation. We are talking about war just like the middle east. All the rebel fighters are just more gangs. This fact has not yet been recognized in North America yet, but that is the situation.
If people see gang being treated as the terrorist that they are and being summarily dealt with in this manner, it will not be so appealing to potential recruits. Not to mention a lead pill is a lot quicker and cheaper than "Rehabilitation"
Driving gangs further under ground will make it more costly and difficult for them to operate and they would have to be more cautious about being visible. The North American Italian Mafia has operated like this for decades. They still exist and make Billions, but quietly and under the radar.

So what bleeding heart will argue against this? It is time to get serious with these terrorist gangs.

I too have to agree that a longer sentence wont make a bit of differance. Look to Alberta with thier tougher laws on drug op's, and trafficking. Why is Alberta's tough law-resulting in the highest rate of addicts in Canada.?

PG's gangs are a result of the drug trade. Members are being recruited by giving them the drugs they need to support the addiction. In return -payment is made by doing jobs for the group/gang. Kind of sounds like employment hey ?

For anyone that read the article on PG's gang problem-this was the answer to the gangs existance. You want to know why you have the probem ?..that is the answer.

No law is going to stop a drug addict that is using crack or meth. The only goal in life for a drug addict -is to get more!...no matter the consequences. Then if the poor soul wants out...they are either beaten or killed.

Its not that I disagree with Ben. I would like to see an instant solution too. When drugs are involved ....there is no instant solution.

If I have said it once I have said it a dozen times.
The politicians will not change the laws to benefit society because it will take money out of the pockets of their lawyer friends.

Longer prison sentences? Gee whiz! Just imagine the cablevision bills the public will have to pay. Wish someone would pay mine.

After 28 years with the same cable provider and their inability to resolve a 3 year old technical problem, I told them to stuff it and I am going satellite.
And Shaw just to reiterate... It will not be Starchoice. :)

For the persons who believe that a softer line on drugs is going to help or that lessening jail time will help is the message that got us so far off course in the first place.
We will never eliminate crime but a more consequential sentence will help deter some. This will help.
The ones that get caught must be convinced that by the time they leave--they never want to come back. This will help.

Criminals working to pay the costs of keeping themselves in prison may not always be enough to deter a criminal but it would help some of them and certainly help the taxpayor.

Something has to be done so that our justice system/legal system doesn't just keep letting these people go or spend a little time in an all expense paid resort.
This is what most half wit criminals believe--because it is mostly true. This is not helping.

I agree that once a crack or meth addict has started there is a long hard road to recovery--but this too requires more action and less watching these people lounge during the day in front of someones store having a snooze so that they can stay up all night stealing or selling themselves. Not letting these people do this "vagrancy" would help.

Sort out the people who are there because of mental health and provide the care they need--but the rest--bagem up and send them to a work farm. The message has to be sent to young people especially that living on the street is not an option--and other ways and means of living are available and we must make them available if there not.

Serious penalties and a focus on the selling and buying of stolen property needs to occur. The lowlifes that buy stolen property need to face a penalty which makes this a highly consequential "deal"--that doesn't pay. This would help.

Our kids are being taught from media messages that legalising soft drugs is just around the corner and that the hard drugs are just a "social problem" where you can go and get a free needle from the government--when you need it.
What kind of message is this?

The U.S.does put more criminals in jail.
There is no doubt about that.
They do not have the revolving door syndrome we have here in Canada.
And the prisons in the U.S. are not a pleasant experience.
We treat our criminals like guests here in Canada.
Whether or not the U.S. method is actually a deterent to crime remains to be seen,but they sure are hell remember it when they get out!
And if you make the experience unpleasant enough,maybe,just maybe,it MIGHT do some good.
Our system does NOTHING!
So put them in jail anyway,and for a long time,because hard time is not fun and right now,they are laughing at our justice system and a lot of slimey lawyers are getting very wealthy.
Lock them up and let god sort them out later on if they refuse to get the message!
The criminals have the responsibility to change their lives,we don't have a responsibility to do it for them, and we should not even be going there!

I don't really care if long prison terms act as a deterent or not. The fact is that the pond scum is off the streets and my neighbourhood for a lengthy period. I have been broken into twice in 2 months. I am now taking extortion phone calls at 2:00 AM. I've had it. After 15 years in this house and neighbourhood these crack heads are threating my family. "rehabilitaion"..."root causes", I don't give a flying ##ck. PUT THEM AWAY. Or better yet, shoot them and let God sort it out.

There is definitely lots of frustration out there and everyone is paying dearly for what drugs and crime is doing to us.

There are a couple of critical problems with our country's philosophy regarding human rights and freedoms when it comes to the issues involved with crime.

While we pride ourselves in a civilized society where the individual is guarded by privacy and laws of which protect our freedom, it also protects criminals from being charged, convicted and punished.

What Ben touched on regarding the political will to provide a better justice system is actually the request to overhaul the way of which WE MUST seperate the rights and freedoms enjoyed by law abiding citizens from that of criminals.

The threshold currently required by law enforcement to establish a reasonable set of grounds for search and seizure or incarceration is too high and therefore difficult to succeed and this is largely due to the enshrined rights and freedoms which this "suspect/criminal" has.

This is obviously a tricky balance to change and that is why it hasn't been changed--but it needs to be changed if our system is to improve.

There is no doubt that we must all compromise to some degree in order to provide our law enforcement, our prosecuters, our judges the means to do their job. Perhaps a trade off for having a more aggressive justice system which is likely to make more mistakes is to have a better appeal/review system to correct these mistakes when made.

If you follow the lists of excuses which our police, our prosecuters and our attorney generals use to explain controversial decisions about justice --you will likely hear the words; "limited resources." These resources are usually money and people and specific expertise which is needed but not appropriated to what we the people are complaining about.

If you want more effective results in catching criminals and successfully convicting them we need to provide more funding to this.

Here's an idea. When someone goes to jail, he or she should be serving the time in solitary. No contact with other prisoners at all. No TV, no internet.