A different downtown perspective….

I think at this time the citizens of PG should have serious concerns about the planned new RCMP station at 4th and Victoria. We may need a new RCMP station, but that location is a huge long-term strategic failure IMO if it is allowed to proceed.

One only has to look at the neighborhood adjacent to 4th and Victoria and its potential for development, as well as the areas potential for synergies with further development of the downtown to realize the long term impact as a result of land use decisions that are being made today by this current city council.

I feel the 4th and Victoria location has the best potential by far to be a central catalyst for a rejuvenated downtown for a number of concrete reasons that should be seriously considered, but locating a RCMP building at that location kills that potential, and IMO the project should be stopped if the downtown is ever to revitalized.

Most any large successful city has a good people place located in their downtown. The civic center plaza is a good attempt at one using brick, pavement, and concrete built in the shadow of Connaught Hill, but that’s not what is needed. No downtown built with private money will be built around the civic center plaza. Large successful cities have large open green space downtown for people to collect, refresh their mindset, go for a stroll, or what ever including collecting for civic events. PG does not have that. The city lot sized park at 1st and George does not count as an urban park that a city is built around… and if it is, then we already have the downtown we planned for.

PG needs a Stanley Park, or a Grand Central Park of our own in the core of the downtown to open up space and add some aesthetics as well as a gathering place for people to want to be downtown. These things don’t come cheep in a downtown, in any downtown anywhere, but especially an already developed downtown where past city planners allowed engineers and developers to plan the city for their own benefit and not the greater good of the city. PG is exampled over the last couple of decades by the John Major corp setting the agenda for whether or not the downtown survives… or our election hopes that an Arab developer from California is going to transform our downtown with his drawing and promises if we will only give him our tax dollars to do it up front… or the corporate welfare idea where we pay for a $5 million dollar garage so that things will look like they do in their drawing and maybe promises will come true. PG needs to stop allowing these people to set the agenda and we need to set our own municipal agenda for the greater good of the community… and in doing so the downtown may be able to redeem itself.

All down 4th and onto Victoria virtually every single business front is boarded up right now for like a five block stretch. I challenge anyone to point out a single business in operation along that stretch other then the TD Bank. The area is in obvious need of some sort of economic rejuvenation and an RCMP station just doesn’t cut it. That is a strategic mistake that is akin to building the pulp mills right across the river from the downtown.

The city already owns the block from Victoria Street to Vancouver Street between 4th and 5th avenue for the planned police station. This is a strategic location for any future downtown revitalization… not because it is set on the busiest street in the downtown within a block of the main office towers and existing commerce buildings, but rather because this is a location private money can invest in with known risks as to flood levels.

Furthermore because of its higher elevation west of Victoria Street all future development can be required to have underground parking eliminating the downtown parking problem that is a constraint to any future downtown growth. These are two huge considerations when looking for a prime location for the city to use as a catalyst for a future downtown core we can all be proud of… because of the simple fact these are things we can not easily build and it is a gift of nature that is either there or it is not. In the majority of the downtown core you have flood level issues and the new 200-year flood stage being moved higher will only exasperate those issues in the future for any potential developments above ground in the downtown.

Downtown East of Victoria will never have underground parking and therefore will never be able to grow unless it is enabled by higher growth west of Victoria street… and therefore subsidized by the infrastructure on the west side to enable the East side growth. A downtown full of parking lots with no parking will never be a success no matter how much people blame its lack of success on street people.

I propose the city use a fund of $5 million to purchase all the homes and city lots from Vancouver Street to Winnipeg Street between 4th and 5th Avenues. About 30 or so lots in total all residential with homes at least 60-years old and almost falling down as it is. The land should be cheep because every business front across the street is either empty or a parking lot. With that land acquisition I would close the road at Vancouver Street and Prince Rupert Street and bull doze the entire three blocks to make way for one large scale urban park that the city could use as a catalyst for a future livable downtown development around its perimeter. This park would open up a huge amount of need green space in the downtown… changing the downtowns entire focus and image of the downtown for a cost not much more then John Majors’ garage. My vision would be to level the area and build for at least two blocks an artificial summertime splash creek with fountains down the middle and lots of shad trees around the perimeter. Another aspect is the fact that Fort George park is a failure if we intend to use it for political rallies, or community commemorations, or even things like fireworks or concerts and such for the simple fact that Fort George Park is in a residential area without the proper facilities and traffic infrastructure to host such events without seriously impacting the lives of the neighboring residents. A large urban park in the center of the city business district is the location for those kinds of activities in a livable city proud of itself.

An urban city park from Winnipeg Street down to Victoria Street covering three city blocks would be in a prime location for future condo, apartment, retail, and commercial development right across the street from the park on all sides, but especially along the parking lots of 4th Avenue where future developers would know what the cities future intention was for downtown revitalization and would also have access to undeveloped land to compliment city plans and this vacant land to be developed is all sufficient to have underground parking as could be required for any future development.

The question then becomes do we really need a new RCMP station and if this council determines that is what we infact do need despite stagnant growth, then I propose that it could be built along Queensway between 2nd and Patricia for a number of reasons. Reason number 1 is that that is a far quicker location to access places like College Heights, south of town, or east of town, as well as the fact it would be located right in the center of the cities problem streets, which will always be the cities problem streets, so that is where we want our police located for efficiency and effective proximity. Since that is in a flood plane that no private investor would ever build on (do to risk insurance) it is a good place for a government building to fill in space in the downtown. For the reason of a flood plane they could build the building with the bottom two floors as a parking garage with two or three floors above that for offices ect all with a birds eye view down Queensway and 5th ideally. This seems to be the planned area for the provincial and federal government to be dumping their problem citizens from elsewhere?

It all depends on what kind of future the city wants for its downtown and I think a RCMP station at Victoria and 4th is a massive strategic long-term error. Plus if the downtown ever did develop further we might have future generations pointing their finger at us saying that was the time when it was possible because everything was inline to build an urban park this city could be proud of, but we built a RCMP station instead. Some might say why not build them both in the same location. And to that I have to say it would destroy the aesthetics of a park as well as be a huge problem for civic demonstrations if that is what a park like that is intended for when the police are towering over any potential civic rally intimidating free speech just by their very location.

My hope is that others will see the merits of this argument and take up the cause as their own cause, because I don’t think it will be me that would be able to do it on my own. But a lot of people that think the current plan for the RCMP location is a mistake might just be able to stop it before it happens and allow the next civic election in three months to decide this monumental strategic decision for the future of any downtown revitalization plan and RCMP building location.

Time Will Tell

Great post Eagleone...unfortunatley long term planning like you suggest is not used in this city even though we have an official community plan.
A central city park is a great idea...brings back memories of living in Cranbrook where Royal park is located downtown and covers only two square blocks but had and still has a tremendous impact on how the downtown core feels. Lots of people eat lunch during the week and the summer parks and recreation programs for kids is ran there also.

I am so sick and tired of seeing those TV commericals that say "Hire a skilled imigrant today"

How about hiring the best suited person for the job, weather it be a HE, SHE, WHITE, BLACK, NATIVE, INDO-CANADIAN or whatever.

If there was a TV commercial out there that said hire a "skilled red-blooded Canadian" today, you can bet there'd be an up-roar.

I have many friends that came to Canada in the late 60's and early 70's when they weren't given very much. They had to learn the language on their own, find their own jobs, pay the same for rent or mortgage as everyone else. And most if not all did it without a complaint.

Today, all we do is spend time and money catering to immigrants when we have war verterans sitting at home barely able to put food on the table and pay their rent.

It's sickening.

"If there was a TV commercial out there that said hire a "skilled red-blooded Canadian" today, you can bet there'd be an up-roar"

The Federal government do give preference to Canadian Citizens in their job postings.

I wish there was a better option for telephone landline service!

The Phone book is hard to read as print was made smaller for some odd reason. I wonder if Telus chose to use small print to save on the cost of paper?
IMO this company is not structured very well.

The service is nothing like when BCTEL owned it!

At least i have a choice of cell providers.

Here I am again complaining about the crack sealers (minds out of the gutter, boys) I mean the nice people from SealTec who are filling cracks and potholes in the roads, currently on the Hart. Two things;
-why use so much sand/gravel? They put down way more than is needed, which exacerbates the problem of:
-why not have them go back and sweep up the sand/gravel? There are multiple problems with leaving it on the road to scatter; 1) slippery surface for motorcyclists 2) adding to the suspended particulate load in our air shed 3) it is unsightly, looks like hell frankly.
metalman.

Re: Telus phone book small print. You should use the INFO PAGES book. Print is BIG and all of the phone numbers and listings from all of the outlying communities are integrated into the Prince George listings. Very handy. Check it out, you will be happy you did.

Just came back from a trip around the province, and although PG is home, it's an ugly town. Almost every other town or city we visited or drove through had nice paved pathways that ran parallel to the highway or main drag. These pathways were set back from the highway surrounded by grass and flowers, usually running beside a river or stream, and with benches placed along them.
What do visitors see when they drive into our fair city?
I know such places exist in the city but they're not visible to travellers. The path around the casino doesn't count.

P.S. Most of these town's have week long festivities in summer with a ton of events. What happened to Simon Fraser Days?

Foothills has become dangerous with the pitt mining. I have had the trucks leaving the pitt,cutl out in front of me, shake their fist as if I am to give them right of way. The foothills is the right of way even if their trucks are bigger than you. If you pull out from a sidestreet you have to wait for a opening not demand it, its not a yield.

once again the cyclists are getting the shaft in this town. Love the new paved road on 10th, but what happened to our cycle lane? And the new "bump out" by the Pheonix Medical building, I think it's there for busses but now the cyclist is just being pushed out into traffic. And once again, where the *@#$ are the bike racks in this town? It's amazing what I've had to lock my bike up to downtown! A lot of us want the same thing, a nicer downtown and a more welcoming city. With the forest industry in such trouble, we should be capitalizing on tourism and keeping the professionals in town! Give people a healthy lifestyle and the'll stay and that is one more step toward a better community.

I've lived in PG for my whole life, the downtown used to be a great place to shop and spend a Saturday afternoon, but it's been taken over by drugs, alcoholism, panhandlers, violence and poor planning ideas (or lack of) by city council. The new PG is in College Heights, and all those business owners downtown who keep holding on to the "dream" of it ever being cleaned up because of no parking meters or that adopt a neighbour program are doing just that...dreaming. It's unfortunate, but true.
Also, one other thing...arent' drugs illegal? Why do we provide a safe injection site for these drug users?? If they are needing clean needles, are they not in possession of drugs? How come they arent' getting arrested for breaking an obvious law?

Hey govsux,we do have festivities in Pg!its called meth fest,and its happening right now downtown!

If new PG is in College Heighs, PG GIRL, what do we do with downtown? It will just become a bigger slum if we just let it go.

Oh, and watching the Olympics this morning I note a Ryan from Victoria, age 17 has just broken a record in the 15m swim and will enter the final on Saturday. Not bad eh?

I completely agree with an earlier poster who mentioned PG's appearance to travellers passing through. First Avenue is an eyesore coming in from the east, as is the Hart Highway heading north. Coming from the south we are greeted by another industrial zone which isn't very nice to look at. I'm not sure what the solution is now that these businesses have located there, you can't just arbitrarily move them.

As for the downtown, it is done. It is dead. The only, and I repeat the only thing good about downtown is The Northern hardware store. If they ever shut their doors or decide to move, you might as well bulldoze the rest flat.

On another topic, how did everybody like the putrid stench in the bowl yesterday? Of course, you have to blame the backyard weenie roasters for that, right?

All niceties aside, the industrial areas and businesses you guys dont want to look at fuel this city. I am aware of other, prettier cities in BC. Most of them are NOT primarily industrial. If you want a tourist city, go live in one or wait until global warming turns PG into wine country (not whine country as it is today). Kelowna used to be a lot more industrial (ugly to you esthetists) . I know, i lived there. That was before it was covered in concrete, restaurants and retirees. Likewise vernon (ugly even for a small town) and Kamloops. Most of these towns have significant revenues outside of heavy industry.
Lets stop worrying about how our town looks to people driving through. Who cares. I think our time would be better spent worrying about how our town functions.
I do agree with the idea of fixing downtowns problems and even agree that removing much of the area might help. What will keep the park clean and safe, i wonder given the downtown's population? My son just played soccer down ther the other day. I got the whole adventure story: needles, bags of used condoms... not really the kind of park experience i would like.

PG Girl 2, you cant just arrest them all. What and fill up the jails. That wont work. They have problems, serious mental problems and the goverment has got a handful. Lets see what Vancouver does to all the homless on the east side and maybe we can use there plan for our downtown.

caranmacil, nobody's denying the economic impact of the industrial areas to the city, just wondering about the planning (or lack thereof) that went into locating them where they are.

Is it the biggest issue facing the city? No, but it is worth noting, even if there's not much we can do about it.

How the town appears to outsiders does matter and is one factor in terms of attracting new residents and businesses.

So because they have mental issues and problems they are allowed to have drugs, use drugs and run the innocent, hard working people out of downtown? Isn't there something wrong with that? I say we need to take back our city. The reason the jails are over crowded is because our jails are a wonderful place to be. Three meals a day, sports activities, TV's, a warm bed...if we made it a bit tougher maybe these losers would think twice about breaking the law. Arrest them, and if they have to share a room with another loser, too bad. Let them sleep on the floor, it's not a hotel. You're there because you are a law breaker. Make it an unpleasant place to be...they should be painting fences, cleaning up garbage and working for their meals. I am a tax payer...a large tax payer and I am not happy that I cannot walk on these streets without being harrassed.

"On another topic, how did everybody like the putrid stench in the bowl yesterday? Of course, you have to blame the backyard weenie roasters for that, right"

Yup. Weenie roasts and all of the road dust that could be seen eminating from the various industrial stacks in the bowl. I sure wish the City would get off its' butt and sweep the darn streets already!

Mr. Pee Gee, there is more to the D.T. than the venerable Northern Hardware, although it is one of the best stores in town. Why, there's...............um, and.............uh...., well, you and I both know that there are lots of good outfits in the downtown, they are just spread out, not clustered together for safety like the mess out west-gate. Personally, I would rather go downtown and run the gauntlet of low lifes than have to run the gauntlet of goggle eyed sale crazy shoppers at west-gate. You are much more likely to be run over by a soccer mom in a mini van in west-gate, than to be accosted by a needle waving noodle brain on third avenue. As for the phone book? I agree, this years edition is hard to read, not just the print size, but also the format. I really hate all the advertising and advice pages, and the coupons too. They took away the maps, and the area code locator, and filled the book with fluff
NFG in my opinion. Use the info pages, more convenient, local (still, I think) and easier to read.
metalman.

suzzette
There are no cycle lanes on fifth ave because cyclists are not permitted on fifth ave. Due to it's narrow width.

...that is probably why she asked about 10th avenue, not 5th avenue.

Telus does not produce the phone book, it has been contracted out for years. At one time Dominion Directories published the phone book but that has since changed hands too. Now you can contact the Yellow Pages Group by looking at the first few pages of the phone book to make your complaint about their print size.

Suzzette said:
"Love the new paved road on 10th, but what happened to our cycle lane?"

No mention was made of 5th avenue which as all people know is not a cycle route from Central to Downtown.....because of its obvious safety concerns.

LOL ya I just noticed that thanks. Sorry Suz.

Industrial areas can move into industrial parks which are properly designed away from existing neighbourhoods. That is a reality.

If the industrial areas were to move from away from the rivers, we could then have great parks, visible from downtown and that would also clean up the downtown core. As well, visitors would have great vista's as they drive in and out of town.

How many towns are at the confluence of two rivers? We take them too much for granted and industry should never have taken them over.

Don't you hate pants!?

PG GIRL 2 on August 15 2008 10:11 AM, "Why do we provide a safe injection site for these drug users?? If they are needing clean needles, are they not in possession of drugs?"

I agree completely. To provide injection sites and free needles puts an official stamp of approval on the whole rotten drug addiction scenario.

I have given up on downtown. The straw that broke the camel's back was the *gentleman* who angrily banged on the driver's door of our vehicle when we parked in front of the Northern Hardware and were afraid to get out of the car because of his threatening behaviour.

He has been removed from PG since then, but with all the drug dealing going on downtown we just don't feel that it is a safe area to go to anymore since the actions of drug addicts are unpredictable, as are those of the drug lords and gangs.

Many years ago when we came to PG it was a vibrant and safe area.

It has been allowed to deteriorate completely. The addicts and deadbeats have taken it over.

Vagrancy, drug possession, loitering and making a nuisance of oneself used to be reasons in the past for the police to enforce the existing laws.

Apparently that is not the case anymore.

Too bad.

Posted by: Norm1 on August 15 2008 10:51 AM
Suzzette said:
"Love the new paved road on 10th, but what happened to our cycle lane?"

No mention was made of 5th avenue which as all people know is not a cycle route from Central to Downtown.....because of its obvious safety concerns.

All people know this is not a cycle route?
You better look up the people that I see riding it all the time and inform them.

So, what is the alternative to giving users clean needles? If they don't have clean ones they will re-use an old one. If they don't have an old one they will borrow onew from someone else, maybe that guy with AIDS.

Of course, that means the user will get AIDS too. Who cares, right" They're not people they're low lifes, scum, dregs of society! They should be in jail, ten to a cell, suffering. We, the tax payers demand it! Yeah, as if they don't suffer already, living as they do.

Only thing is this guy with AIDS asks for money in a menacing manner and you give him some, touching his hand. Do you get AIDS? A City worker picks up needles in a back alley. He pricks himself accidentally. Does he get AIDS? If he does, how much of your tax money will he get in compensation for dieing at age 28 instead of 78, half a million dollars perhaps, a million dollars maybe, more?

Giving those who need them is not about encouraging drug use it is about protecting the rest of society from disease, AIDS and hepatitis mostly. Note, that one type of hepatitis has been proven to lead to liver cancer. Do you want to run the risk of developing that just to save the price of a cent or two for a needle?

It has been shown that some diseases decrease in incidence due to free needle exchanges. It is primarily a public health program to protect you and I, not an endorsement for drugs. We are safer because of it.

The safe injection sites are provided to help control the spread of Aids. It was designed to promote the return of used needles.

I agree too. I hate telus ( aka-tell us-we dont care). That automated voice system they have..is rediculous.
OK-tell me a bit about why you are calling.
Good luck picking the right words..hehe


I also notice that the only time they ever call about your service is after you have signed up with another long distance provider.

Thier cell service isn't any better.

In the Aug.8th Free Press
N.D.P. Critic David Chudnovsky states , there are several things we need to say about the NIMBY factor , to not provide that housing is to continue to have these people on the street and disrupting our society.
I guess MR. Chudnovsky feels it's ok to have these people from who know where , with who knows what problems transplanted into a residential neighbourhood putting children at risk.
I guess he feels It's ok to get "these people" as he calls them, OFF the street and disrupting residential neighbourhoods, schools and parks. As Concerned residents we need to be courageous on this Issue. NIMBY is not a factor but SAFTEY is. To put this mess in a residential neighbourhood is a no brainer . The downtown has been distroyed, is Fort George Park next??

ammonra: If we give them clean needles, then what do they do with them? Does this not somehow still lead to dirty needles in the streets? Perhaps even more than before since they can now get them for free...
I do not entirely know how this program works, but it seems like a doctor putting a band-aid on a major wound, then telling the patient the problem is solved.
It didnt do anything really, but if the person in authority says they did something it might make us feel better.

I dont see how it helps anything. I see where it could potentially help to give clean needles, however it does nothing to deal with the actual issues, or to solve the problem.
We need to look at the reasons people get into drugs in the first place. If you dont start, you are less likely to end up on the street. Not saying it wont happen, but drugs are the start of a downward spiral that is hard to escape... so why put yourself in that position?? I just dont get it...

I might add that condom use can be viewed as much the same. If there are lots of used condoms downtown it presumably means that prostitutes are insisting that their clients use them. This is most likely to stop getting and giving venereal diseases, including AIDS.

Disgusting as handling used condoms is, it is surely better than handling the dead body and burying a businessman's wife. One who was given AIDS by her husband after his illicit sexcapade in the Holiday Inn with a prostitute he picked up at that convention he attended.

It is better also than wives getting gonorrhoea and syphilis, chlamydia and any of several other diseases. Disgusting it may be, but partial responsible behavior is better than irresponsible behavior. What we now need is an educational program directed towards collection sites for condoms and needles, to get them off the streets.

Well said ammonra. Funny your post wasn't there when I posted. Maybe my page had not re-freshed.

Dan, it is called a needle EXCHANGE for a reason. Guess what that reason is.

Unfortunately, not all users go to the exchange. We should be encouraging them to do so for our own safety.

These problems are difficult to solve, if they are, in fact solvable. Bitter objects to certain types of people being pushed into residential neighborhoods, being concerned for his children's safety. That is a valid concern.

Others want to force the same people out of the downtown. To go where? To go into residential neighborhoods, perhaps?

Put them in prison, then. For what, being addicts? How will that help. if they are still addicts when they are released? Force them to get treatment, then. OK, how often does forcing smokers not to smoke actually stop them smoking? Never? Bingo! Pointless, useless programs will not solve the problem, nor will throwing them in jail for the rest of their lives. Such action would be illegal anyway.

The first step is to protect society as best as can be done within the law. Use the laws. As diplomat says, there are plenty of them.

At the same time increase programs designed to assist people with these kinds of problems to deal with them successfully. That means more drug and alcohol counselling, not less. That means keeping programs open not closing them, as was announced not too long ago on Opinion250. That means training more counselors, that means more public awareness programs, that means more innovative programs, not less. More carrots, less stick.

All this concern and talk for downtown revitalization will go away after the November election. Gone for another four years. It's a pattern.

I have a question. I was talking with someone in-regards to drug rehab for an addict.
From my understanding there is no intervention available to put individuals in rehab without thier consent,in B.C. Is that true?

.ex lets say we have a 14 year old kid that is doing crack...the parents are concerned for her and want to have her under go rehab, in hopes of a better future for thier child.

wishing everyone a wonderful weekend, hope you all get to enjoy some of the beautiful weather we are going to have!!!

Have a great one people!!

Smile it's contagious

IMO

Ship em out to a detox centre until they are cured. Any with past records must do above then be sent to a bootcamp for 2 years.

Re-hab with an end result for both the user and the taxpayer.Teach then basic living and working skills.

Doing something in a serious manner other than feeling sorry for them will produce a better citizen.

Get tuff on crime.

Murder- death sentence
Gang memebers 20 years min
Dealers 10 yesrs min

We are far to Liberal in Canada and this is the direct result of being to soft.

The problem with the bike lanes are all the cars that think the lane is there for them to park, so bikers are still having to go out in traffic. The white line should be yellow and no parking painted along with the bike logo, which is done in other cities.

The problem with the needle exchange is that no one has to bring in a dirty needle to get a new one. Also the needle exchange brings people to PG and if you don't think it draws people here I can give you an example of another city that had a drug store become the methadone clinic and their small drug community exploded as it attracted addicts from other cities.

Do I want them to get AIDS, etc. No but I do not want my community to be destroyed by addicts. I am tired of supporting the drug trade through my taxes and building shelters for addicts so that they can remain addicts.

The new Friendship Lodge is being built for street people "at risk", but at the same time seniors, espially women, are living below the poverty level and the Friendship Lodge would be better suited for them.

As for 4th & Victoria becoming a downtown park - I think that would be a great idea and lets move industry away from the rivers and take them back. In the 1970's the mills and homes were moved out because of the '72 flood and the mills moved (except for one). It was done with flood relief money so could be done again.

What I do not understand is why a concerned parent, or guardian cannot force a drug addict to get help.

Yet, once they break the law a judge can demand 'rehab.'

This needs to be changed. imo.

The providing of safe injection sites and free needles does not solve the problem. It is at best only a band-aid solution and must be seen as an entirely temporary one.

The solution must go to the root of the problem and that is curing addicts so they can get control of their lives again.

If that means arresting them and shipping them off to a secure rehab center - so be it.

Nobody recommends cramming ten at a time into a jail cell, just to make them suffer even more.

Actually, if they are put in jail and a rehabilitation program they will be off drugs completely as long as they are in jail.

If they are still on drugs - in jail - then it means that someone is illegally supplying them with drugs and more jails ought to be built for those who are the suppliers.

We can't leave it up to the addicts to decide whether they want to get off drugs or not as long as they don't care how badly their addictions affect the rest of society and our cities and neighbourhoods.

Obviously, addictions cause people to do irrational and criminal things which they would not so otherwise.

To get them back to a normal life again is the most compassionate thing we can do for them, even though the addicts of course would not think so.

To shuffle them off to the side, to a certain area in town where they can do their thing unmolested is the biggest uncaring cop-out of them all.

Freedom and democracy have nothing to do with any of this. A letter to the editor today infers that those who want to take the bull by the horns are communists and dictators.

Well, in my opinion they are not. There comes a time when enough carrots have been used and it's time for the soft big stick.

The bike riders dont use the actual lane they ride on the line painted to seperate it from the road. Moast have no mirrors or lights on their bikes. Most of the bikes are mountian bikes, find a trail.

PGX:
Admission - 1 child = 10.00
Ride band - 1 child = $30.00
Total cost: $40.00

PNE:
Admission - 1 child = $12.00
Ride band - 1 child = $36.00
Total cost: $48.00

Am I the only one who thinks our PGX is a rip off for the kids?

Regarding addiction:
Do any of you opinionators have personal experience with addiction? I mean up close and personal, your kid, spouse, yourself?
For those of us whose lives have been tainted and forever changed because of someone's addiction, we know that re-hab does not work, nothing works until the person makes that mind shift and decides to get clean and stay clean. I have heard all sorts of rhetoric and theory, but what I have observed is that you have to WANT to quit your poison. Going to group therapy is fine, you can get informed, and be given ideas about what you could/should do, and maybe you have a 'safe' place to stay while you are in the program (or maybe you will make a dope deal with one of your fellow rehabbers) Once you are back on the outside, it again falls on your own shoulders to stay clean. And avoiding other druggies, going to AA or Na meetings, calling a buddy, hanging out with 'clean' friends, all of that is fine, but it will not help you beat your addiction, only that mental determination will do it, nothing else. So I do not support handing out needles to addicts, it is easy to understand the point of view that contends this condoning of illegal acts (drug use) will/does assist in preventing the spread of some dread diseases, but it does not do anything about the real problem.
A thoroughly disillusioned and dejected metalman.

"Nobody recommends cramming ten at a time into a jail cell, just to make them suffer even more."

True. I was being sarcastic to the person who did post that they could sleep on the floor of their jail cell. She said, "Let them sleep on the floor, it's not a hotel. You're there because you are a law breaker. Make it an unpleasant place to be." My response was based on hyperbole, Diplomat.

The comment, "If they are still on drugs - in jail - then it means that someone is illegally supplying them with drugs and more jails ought to be built for those who are the suppliers." is a little difficult to follow. If the suppliers are in jail already what is the point of putting them in another? Your point is only valid if the supplier is visiting from outside, but that is already illegal and results in jail sentences already.

To Metalman, the only thing I have been addicted to is tobacco and that took me years to overcome. I do have a friend who is a clean addict and alcoholic who now counsels others.

My question is about the needles. If you would oppose the needle exchange, what would you do to control the increase in diseases that would result? When the general public starts to be affected by the diseases, what would you do? I suggest that we have a duty to do what we can, within the law, to protect society and its members and that includes a needle exchange.

perhaps this question is appropriately best dealt with by legislation invoking the notwithstanding clause.

Hows this idea?

Build (or use) a compound such as Baldy Hughs. Provide free heroin. The catch is that the only was out is through rehab. Build a big wall.

People can opt to go in or be put in if they have drug convictions or a clearly demonstrated drug problems.

This way people that are happy to be addicts can stay in. People have too put in some effort can get out. People are protected from criminal activity that results from drug addiction. The revolving door is eliminated. It might take use of the not withstanding clause to get past the charter, but i doubt it would bring down a govcernment.

Keeps the problem out of the back yards of people that just want a nice safe place to raise a family.

Interesting. No?

singlemom wow the PGX is indeed a ripoff.

You can get one child into the San Diego Zoo for $16.50 and that's before the AAA/CAA discount. For $8 more, they get an annual pass.

if you are available tomorrow please come down to Cedars Christian School to help with raising the roof! We can use all the help we can get! Bring a hammer if you can!

Posted by: singlemom on August 15 2008 4:07 PM
PGX:
Admission - 1 child = 10.00
Ride band - 1 child = $30.00
Total cost: $40.00

PNE:
Admission - 1 child = $12.00
Ride band - 1 child = $36.00
Total cost: $48.00

Am I the only one who thinks our PGX is a rip off for the kids?
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Posted by: EdH on August 15 2008 7:33 PM
singlemom wow the PGX is indeed a ripoff.

You can get one child into the San Diego Zoo for $16.50 and that's before the AAA/CAA discount. For $8 more, they get an annual pass.
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Remember that the PNE and the San Diego Zoo doesn't rely on Diesel fuel and gasoline for people to see their shows.

If we wanna be clean air breathers were to impose some of our will on Canfor,would they pick up and leave? How much is their PG location worth to them.Lets find out.

Apparently they now have a self-help group for people who don't know when to shut up. It is called On and on Anon.

I totaly agree that the PGEX is a rip-off. The PNE has much more to see and do - first day of the fair is free admission and there is much free entertainment that comes with the price of admission. It is impossible to see it all the PNE in one day, not in 3 hrs like PG. I too have taken my kids to San Diego Zoo and Disneyland. There is no comparison between them and the PGX as far as value for your buck is concerned. As for using diesel and gas to stage our X, I think that the amount of fuel burned by those attending the PNE during it's 2 week run far excedes our use. I will never be attending the PGX again until things change. Twenty years ago it used to be a good small city fair. What happened?