and, we can drive to this fifty million dollar Performing Arts Center, on pothole ridden roads! Better get your priorities straight!

I can't believe the wasteful spending of this city! Fix our ROADS, then spend money on crap like this. We already have Vanier Hall, and if I remember rightly, it seats 800 people!

I am not against the Arts, my father and mother were very much a part of it in this city. But, to spend 50 million dollars of tax payers money for this, at this time, will be very wrong!! FIX OUR ROADS!!

I am sure that they will get the CHANCES gaming center a lot cheaper than that.
Afterall , wasn't that the reason it was built in the first place?
Or am I the only one who thinks that?

This estimate is no better than the rest of the estimates we see from time to time. At least we know the center will cost a MINIMUM of $51 million dollars on the low side.

If the city simply has to throw some cash around there would be more general taxpayer support and return and a better quality of life for everyone if the city spent $51 million dollars building a giant green house and heating it with bio energy. Build a center court for the farmers market and vegetable sales. What is be better for the public, Bach or Broccli?

I know, how about a reduction in taxes instead!

I agree with the comment about the potholes. But the problem goes deeper than that: Some streets are beyond pothole and crack patch repair! They must be REPAVED in order to start fresh with a new continuously smooth surface!

What is the life expectancy of a black topped surface in the North here - a surface that is pounded daily by trucks, buses and cars?

Thirty years? What about streets that were ripped open with trenches to install below ground services right after they were paved three decades ago? After that they became lumpy obstacle courses and have been so for all this time.

The Prince George Regional Performing Arts Society should show some realistic understanding for those who present a valid case that infrastructure maintenance is just as important as the arts.

Infrastructure is a necessity, an unavoidable necessity, a basic requirement and looking after it really must come before the city contemplates the choice of opting for spending vast sums of money on a performing arts centre luxury.

From those who are determined to get this luxury one way or the other we yet to hear an official comment that we as a city do indeed have a huge neglected infrastructure problem.

Just to correct the lack of proper sidewalks was estimated to cost several dozens of millions of dollars in a study commissioned by the city itself and done by an outside firm.

That study has been gathering dust on some shelf for a number of years now.

Find a solution that is acceptable by the whole community! After all, it is the whole community whose support and attendance is vital to the PAC after it opens its doors!

If it is rammed down the throats of the taxpayers over their objections would that be a positive or a highly negative start?

Now the estimated cost has already risen to 51 million dollars and it will probably keep rising as more of the latest and the greatest are added to it.

Back to the basics, in my opinion.

I don't believe it, $51 million! They better fundraise for this money and NOT use tax dollars. I agree...FIX OUR ROADS!!!

Building it is one thing.. Who will come up with the money to support it and keep it maintained. You got it... the taxpayer.

In Saskatoon they built the Persephone Theatre on the river bank at River Landing for approximatley $11 million. It opened in 2007. It has a 450-seat theatre facility as well as a second stage with a capacity of 200. Saskatoon has a population of over 200,000 and another 80,000 within an hours drive. Prince George has about 1/3rd of that yet the artsies are trying to spend 5 times that amount! I checked the calendar and it is Nov 1st not April 1st so this story wasn't a joke!

Well I wish they would delay the new police station ! Wait till the price of construction goes down with the falling economy and cut some of the luxuries from that building as well. Get the cops out in the cars ( there is enough of them parked 24 hours a day around the buildings ) and then we won't need the new cop shop. They have computers in the cars, telephones as well. Get some presence on the streets and not in a big fancy fortress.

Realistically, lets not spend any more than 15 million dollars. Lets settle for a unit that has a capacity of 500 people in the main theatre and side kick theatre of 200 people.

Hey, Why not plow in $10 million dollars and fix up Vanier Hall. I think that unit holds a capacity of 800.

Better places to spend that amount of money. Roads Bridges ect. The taxpayers do not have endless deep pockets. What is wrong with Vanier Hall or do they just want a new shiny building that will only serve a few on the backs of many.

Vanier hall has a host of problems to say the least. I am surprised that another building, attached to the playhouse is not considered. Then you have the two different sized theaters, an existing parking lot, etc. Oh right, the long term planners of the city want to make that area into another car sales lot ! If the was a theater area, combined with the hotels, casino in area they you have some attractions and places for people to stay. Build up some residential areas and get the seniors and artsy types to move into the area. Make it pedestrian friendly, easy !

Quesnel will hold a referendum together with the municipal election on Nov 15th.

The referendum asks for the citizens' approval/disapproval of borrowing for an new arena/performing arts center project. Cost: less than one third of the P.G. planned mega performing arts center.

Will Prince George citizens get the same democratic respect and opportunity to vote on the planned Performing Arts Mega Center?

I sure hope so or else something is way out of kilter.

Are any of the people running for election in Prince George concerned this???

If we get a performing arts centre maybe some of the present councilors could take up acting. Kinsley will be unemployed and then there is Basserman He should be looking for a new career. And there is pertty Ms Graton she could do the Ann of Green Gables thing.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Can someone update me why we need an performing arts center. We already have the playhouse, Vanier hall, Theater Northwest, Civic Center and the multiplex. Don't these places have good enough wine coolers or something. Whats wrong with the playhouse or Vanier Hall. Could these not be modified to compliment each other for a lot less money for whatever is needed. But I guess something shiny and new is a better place to hang ones name.

Are you all really so thick that you cant see the good behind this centre? Let me explain city and community growth to you simpleton's who's one track minds connect potholes with every frikkin dollar spent. For a city to grow and attract more and better doctors, lawyers, business people, and events, there are a few things that should be in place. A large Sports Centre for various sports and concerts (CN Centre, Northern Sports Centre), Swimming and Diving facilities(Aquatic Centre/Four Seasons), Parks and trail systems(Countless great parks in this city and hopefully soon a trail system), AND a performing arts centre. These are the things that attract higher levels of business and Healthcare to our area which we desperatley need. Anyone tried to get a family doctor lately in this town? Not gonna happen. You think more good doctors are going to move to this area if it doesnt have the facilities and infastructure that they want to live around? Also Not gonna happen. There are to many opportunities for them elsewhere that have these things in place. If you guys are really so worried about this Arts centre then I can assume we will see all of your asses at the public meetings for this so you can be completely informed right? Not freakin likely!

Hey Matt, I like your condecending attitude. I am one of those uncultured simpltons you refer to. I guess I'm just not cultered enough for your liking. Do you like sex and travel?

At this point in time with the economic future of this region and this province and this country up in the air due to circumstance no one seems to be able to significantly effect,a cultural centre's affect on the growth of PG will be marginal.

The centre would be a huge asset to the large and active cultural community within PG. The situation would still remain that acts still don't book here due to logistics etc.

The price tag is probably in line with a state of the art facility. It would be a wonderful asset ESPECIALLY if it were tied to a post secondary institution so that a performing / fine arts educational component could be added to CNC or UNBC so that the facility would be truly well used...
But at 40 - 50 million with things going the way they are. Potholes, underused other facilities in fact with all facilities having to be subsidized.....

I don't think there are many that would be willing to take the leap of faith to build this facility at that price tag, or downtown, great idea but if downtown is NOT cleaned up first the same conditions that worry store patrons today will worry theatre goers in the future....

At this point in time with the economic future of this region and this province and this country up in the air due to circumstance no one seems to be able to significantly effect,a cultural centre's affect on the growth of PG will be marginal.

The centre would be a huge asset to the large and active cultural community within PG. The situation would still remain that acts still don't book here due to logistics etc.

The price tag is probably in line with a state of the art facility. It would be a wonderful asset ESPECIALLY if it were tied to a post secondary institution so that a performing / fine arts educational component could be added to CNC or UNBC so that the facility would be truly well used...
But at 40 - 50 million with things going the way they are. Potholes, underused other facilities in fact with all facilities having to be subsidized.....

I don't think there are many that would be willing to take the leap of faith to build this facility at that price tag, or downtown, great idea but if downtown is NOT cleaned up first the same conditions that worry store patrons today will worry theatre goers in the future....

Matt, so you think a 50 million dollar arts centre is needed to attract business and doctors? There isn't a town in Canada that has spent that kind of money for an Arts Centre. Its attitudes like yours that turn "simpletons" off to an Art Centre. Us simpletons are not smart enough or educated enough to figure out that spending this kind of money on an Arts Centre is STUPID. Maybe you should put a little vaseline on your ears so you can get your head a littler further up your ....!
Have a referendum and you would not get 10% support!! That's why you will never see a referendum on this.

Just thought I would let Matt know that being a doctor in PG does not mean one needs an Arts center - one needs a bigger , more effecient hospital with operating hours - and a cancer clinic -many doctors love the wilderness surrounding this city. Society is not made up of doctors but with all people of all walks of life.

"Are you all really so thick that you cant see the good behind this centre"

I'm not sure it's that. I think it just comes down to the fact that we are seeing two distinct "demographics" developing in PG. This is going to sound like a big generalization (and exceptions certainly will exist), but I'm going to comment on what I see regardless. I don't want to write 19 pages so please forgive me if this comes across as too simplistic. It probably is, however, I'm hoping it results in some form of discussion . . .

The first group is the folks that have been in PG or "the north" for a long time. They likely grew up working in forestry or related industries and they may very well have spent their entire life in this town or in smaller communities. They've likely never been exposed to or have an interest in "the arts", they are probably VERY resistant to any sort of change that threatens what they perceive as being their "way of life" and they don't think that PG will ever be anything but a mill town, despite the visual evidence to the contrary popping up all over the City.

The second group is the folks that are likely new to PG or are part of a younger generation that is not directly connected to resource based industries in their own area of employment (you know, the ones that saw their parents slugging away at a mill and said "no way in hell am I going to do that for the rest of my life"). These folks are equally as proud of PG as the others, however, they see a DIFFERENT future for PG. They see a PG that caters to their interests, their needs and their priorities. These interests are VASTLY different from those of the other group. These could be the arts, it could be a more environmentally friendly city, etc. These folks welcome change because they want to see the City transform into something that it hasn't historically been.

In short, I think we have a rather distinct and opposing view within the populous of what PG should look like moving ahead and how we should go about getting there.

You could say that one group prefers the status quo while the other does not. One is happy with PG the way it is, the other is not. One group will defend the high paying mill jobs to death because they are used to one person bringing home the income for the entire family unit and all of the "goodies" that those incomes provide. The other group may be okay with lower individual wages because both people in the family work (they may bring home more combined income as a result) and they choose to drive a car and go hiking for fun as opposed to driving a 1 ton truck pulling two sleds for entertainment. Neither group is right or wrong, they just have different opinions and priorities.

At the end of the day, the direction the City takes will be based on what the bulk of the population wants. As someone who was born and raised here, it's pretty obvious to me that the population demographics are changing. We're moving away from being just a "mill town" and we're turning into a city that has more character.

We have more ethnic restaurants than we ever did, likely due to increased diversity in the population. We have have a more keen awareness of environmental issues, likely due to the influx of people from areas that DIDN'T have these issues. We have people wanting things like performing arts centers and trail networks because they are appealing to their way of life, much like they are in other cities of size. Our population likely has the highest level of formal education as it has in its' history, due to the influence of our post secondary institutions. You could go on and on.

The city is changing and I think it's beyond the point where it will go back to what it was. It's a natural progression and I for one am glad that it's occurring.

Thanks NMG. Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Quote from woodwoman -

"being a doctor in PG does not mean one needs an Arts center - one needs a bigger , more effecient hospital with operating hours - and a cancer clinic -many doctors love the wilderness surrounding this city."

I understand that. Doctors were just part of my rant. Its about creating a community that appeals to a LARGE group which in turn attracts more people, bigger business, more money etc. etc..

If the people that were complaining day in and day out about the spending the city does would do some research and show up to the meetings and be a part of the conversation and solutions, then maybe they would find that they have less to complain about. PG has its problems but this is a great town and its getting better. Slowly.

Matt, your polite, courteous and respectful comment has persuaded me to have another look at the issue! However, unfortunately, I still believe that the restoration of badly neglected basic infrastructure (cracks and potholes, bad or non-existing sidewalks, etc - well, you know because you have eyes to see with) has a somewhat higher priority than a new Mega Palace For The Arts.

Perhaps you can start a mega fund raising campaign in the city and the surrounding area to get some seed money together to put where your mouth is.

I'll certainly make a cash contribution to that fund even though I am not much of a performing arts fan at all. Since there will be no referendum I am sure that future contributions from me will be automatically extracted from me via my annual property tax assessment.

Over and out.

I'm not against a Performing Arts Centre but I am against tax dollars being used for it. If they can fundraise to build it and maintain it, then go for it. Spending $50+ million tax dollars for 800 to 1000 people is just plain nuts. And like woodwoman said, that money could be put to better use for the hospital and a cancer clinic.

I'll move before I let my tax dollars pay for such waste.
Not with the state of things the way they are in the world today.

People that have these grand ideas are only thinking of themselves.

Makes me wonder if the story was "padded" to shock us $51 million is a little past my $1500.00 per month income as no doubt it is for a lot of folks.
We would be so proud of a Performing Arts Centre especially if we had clean air to go along with it. It is hard to imagine attending the centre in such poor visual air as we have in the City. It is rather like the "Emporer's New Clothes", poor chap wasn't wearing any clothes but everyone clapped and applauded because the people were told of his magnificent wardrobe. Prince George is rather like the Emporer, and needs to clean up its' air first so we can find the Centre and clap and applaud. Once that is done,I am all for a performing arts centre.

NMG you are out to lunch on your social profile of Prince George. It is the oldtimer's that are all for the improvement of Prince George. We were here long before the mills.

I agree with mythoughts...they (The Prince George Regional Performing Arts Society) should fundraise to build and maintain the "Performing Arts Centre".

How many of the Performing Arts groups in PG will be able to afford to use the facility in the first place.

What will the cost be to local bands, choirs, small theatre groups, dance/martial arts performers etc?

Will these groups have to pass the cost on to the audience? I don't know many people who are willing to spend $30 to $50 minimum per person(and that's just a guestimate) to see a show, especially with the state of our economy.

I support the arts as well as other deserving groups in PG, but I would like to know what kind of fundraising are they willing to do to offset the costs of this "new" facility.

I recently moved from PG due to issues just like this....

- City support of the sale of BC Rail
- City spending
- Horizon Air nightmare
- downtown ghetto
The last thing this town needs is a $50 million dollar performing arts centre!

How about cleaning this dump up, getting people on council that have a clue and work for the people, local govt. that doesn't spend the tax payers money on obvious failures like Horizon etc.
How is the sale of BC Rail working for everyone in town? How is your "inland port" doing? You could count the jobs on a few fingers.
I still have real estate in PG and lots of family and friends......

It is sad what has happened to this once proud town.

For those who do not think people will spend to attend, think about the several thousand who attend the CN Centre performances and spend more than $30 most of the time and more than $50 per ticket some of the time.

Kenny Rogers - minimum ticket is $55 + $11 or so service charges.

These are people who subsidize those who go to see the Cougars.

Those who will pay those kind of prices in a smaller Performing Arts Centre will subsidize those who everyone seems to forget about, the children and young people who have dance recitals, music festivals, drama festivals and on and on. They will not be subsidizing a professional hockey team. Other performing arts lovers are already doing that.

Wouldn't it be nice, for a change, if sports enthusiasts would subsidize those who like to view popular performing artists.

Gus that is a terrible example, I kind of feel sorry for you, but I guess its too late for you to delete your post :(

Do a little bit of research (if you can be bothered) and inform yourself as to how much the citizens of PG are subsidizing the CN Centre (cougars, kenny rogers concerts ect)... add to that the penalty for taxpayers paying for the sportcentre, and you STILL think that we should shell out more of our hard earned dollars for a performing arts centre that 5-10% of the population will utilize.

Pull your head out of the sand, along with your buddy Matts, and re-evaluate what the City's responsibilites are:

Roads, Infrastructure, Business friendly environment. Not buying property, building sports/arts/whatever centers, not subsidizing airlines.

Get back to the basics, weather the recession and let the chips fall where they may.

So Mr. Matt Porteous, I would guess, you calling me a simpleton, would allow me to call you an IDIOT, in the truest sense of the word!! I am not a simpleton, I am a realist. You want this to attract wealthy people. Well, wealthy people don't pay the BILLS! For the most part, they ride on the backs of people like me, contributing very little to the good of the community! All they do is take!

If you want your damn Performing Arts Center, get Canfor to pay for it!! They have made billions of dollars here. Maybe they should put a little back. Start a house lottery, like the Spruce Kings do! I buy a ticket every year!! And if you asked me for money in this manner, I would probably support you. But, you are not going to use my tax dollars!

As I said in my first post on this subject, FIX OUR ROADS FIRST. A no brainer. Hello, priorities!!

We have to get control of the drug problem, because it has obviously, infected the intellect of our high society! They are so high, they can't even see me, or hear what I am saying

"..Kenny Rogers - minimum ticket is $55 + $11 or so service charges..."

Did they sell the place out? How many went?

It is my expectation that with a new mayor and all new councilors some realism will return and some respect for the hard work of those who earn the taxes which pay for everything.

$51M on a performing arts centre sounds steep!! Why don't they renovate Vanier Hall. Probably could do it for half the price. The location is pretty good too.

I notice that people say we should be fixing roads in PG. I also would like it if we had decent roads to drive on. Ospika could definately use some work.

I checked the PG finacial statements for 2007 and it appears to me that they only spent about $3.8M to Columbia Bit. and maybe another $750 to WIC which I think was more for sidewalks.

Of course the city workers do some patching work here and there, but the major repaving comes from subcontractors if I'm not mistaken. So out of about $180M in funding we spent maybe $4.5M on repaving and maybe that amount again from City crews. That's only about 5% of the City budget.

No wonder our roads aren't doing so good!!!!

I will ask again, what does a performing arts center have over what we already have got? Sorry for my ignorance, maybe I fell off my sled to many times, just what is a performing arts center.

http://www.city.pg.bc.ca/cncentre/events
Nov. 15: Finger eleven - $34.50 to $39.50
Nov. 16: Backstreet Boys - $39.50 to $59.50
Nov. 19: Kenny Rogers - $55.50 to $85.50
Dec 11: Corb Lund and the Hurtin’ Albertans - $29.50
Dec 12: Lord of the Dance - $45 to $65
Jan 14: Jan Sam Roberts and the Sills - $25 to $34.50

What is the City reponsible for? Transportation, water, sewer, maintenance, parks, recreation (both sports and entertainment), planning, local investment climate, and so on. Certainly more than those things rayban describes.

It is better at doing some than others. Of course, we can always go back to the services which smaller communities such as Burns Lake provide and see what happens to Prince George. A real live experiment. See how many leave the community then.

"No wonder our roads aren't doing so good!!!!"

Not too long ago I complained about a street that is too narrow for a bus route, has no sidewalk, has two narrow curves in it, is pitted, trenched across, potholed and in fact just a continuous stretch of lumpy patches over lumpy patches.

I was informed that the street's condition leaves something to be desired, but that it is not that bad and that its condition is just somewhat low on the comfort level. Remediation is not a high priority.

I suggest to those whose priority is spending tax money on a 51 million dollar PAC that they too should accept the fact that the performing arts scene in Prince George is not that bad and that it is just somewhat low on the comfort level.

Bingo.

So the total cost is estimated to range from 42 to 51 million, that's quite the spread . . .

The other thing the article doesn't state is where the funding would come from. Would the City be responsible for the entire bill? What about private sector contributions? Would the Feds or Province come up with some dough as well? Is there any vacant land laying around that the City could sell to raise capital or would debt financing be used for the entire project?

There are so many details missing from this initial story that it's almost impossible to form a reasonable conclusion as to whether and/or when it should go ahead now. Obviously much work to be done.

NMG. If you read the report even further, the construction costs are less than that. Those costs include design and equipment costs. I think normally only the construction cost is shown.

I think that the province and federal governments normally fund the largest portion of costs based on similar projects in BC and in Canada. There is more to this than is written.

We cannot afford this project. In the not too distant future we are going to have a tough enough time funding the necessities in life, never mind any luxuries (like this project) that we might desire. I cannot see the Federal or Provincial Governments contributing any money at all to this kind of a project in this current economic environment

The following paragraphs are quotes from the speech Premier Gordon Campbell made to the province on Oct. 22, 2008:

"Today the world’s financial system is in the grips of the worst crisis in over 75 years.

World stock markets are reeling, commodity prices are plunging and the world’s financial system is under attack. The ripple effects are being felt in every corner of the globe and every region of our province.

I thought it was important to speak with you directly about what it means for British Columbia and the new actions we will take to help keep B.C.’s economy strong.

If you own stocks or RRSPs, you’ve probably been watching the markets with disbelief. Years of earnings have been wiped out, at least until markets recover. The global economic crisis is not someone else’s problem. It’s all of ours."

The following is the link to his speech:

http://www.gov.bc.ca/premier/media_gallery/speeches/2008/oct/22_premier_gordon_campbell_economic_address_2008_10_22_11499_M_1.html

The following paragraphs are from an article posted on the National Post web site on Nov. 1. 2008:

"OTTAWA - The federal Finance Minister likely will tell his provincial counterparts on Monday that he is set to cap the amount of money they will receive in transfer payments from Ottawa, effective next year.

Jim Flaherty may unveil his proposed changes -- most notably imposing a limit on how much equalization payments can grow from year to year -- in this month's economic update, and wants to warn the provincial finance ministers of what's ahead, said Finn Poschmann, the C. D. Howe Institute's director of research.

Experts say Mr. Flaherty is moving with urgency given Ottawa's shrinking revenue base, as economic weakness sparks robust drops in GST and corporate tax receipts and puts Ottawa at risk of recording a deficit this year and next."

The following is the link to this article:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=925400

Seems a referendrum would be the proper approach before the spending of a very substantial amount of money on a PAC takes place. It is only fair to give the taxpayer a say on what will turnout to be a large increase in taxes to cover both capital expeditures and the on going operating costs such as heating, lighting, cleaning, etc.

Gus - I was referring to the taxpayers bill for running the CN Centre, Civic Centre, SportCentre and if another very small special interest group gets its way, the cost to run the Performing Arts Center.

Read up on the City Budget - we are already paying on the order of $400,000 per year for the CN Centre and about the same for the Civic Centre. If my memory is correct we are on the hook for about $300k per year for the Sport Centre.

On top of a $51,000,000 bill for construction, do you think the City can afford to run a Performing Arts facility as well?

As I said before, it is time to get back to the basics.

Posted by: seamutt on November 2 2008 10:10 AM
I will ask again, what does a performing arts center have over what we already have got? Sorry for my ignorance, maybe I fell off my sled to many times, just what is a performing arts center.


I will send this on to a member seamutt, and you haven't fallen off your sled!! Good question.

Rayban. When writing about the CN Centre and the Cougar versus non-Cougar events there I believe that at the end of the activity for the Cougars, the net income for the Centre is a negative number. In other words, it is a loss.

At the end of the other activities in the CN Centre, I suspect there is a net gain. Thus, the other activities provide a financial support to the Centre while the Cougars activities are putting the Centre deeper into the red which has to be subsidized by the City.

Seamutt. In my opinion, comparing a new 800 seat theatre against the only other such facility we now have, Vanier Hall, is like comparing the Multiplex to the Coliseum. Kenny Rogers and others like him would not come to town if he could not perform in a facility of the quality of the Multiplex. Neither would the Cougars be here.

Or it is like comparing the new Aquatic Centre with a 50 metre pool + diving basin & tower and wave pool to the Four Season Pool.

Or the Ramada to the Camelot.

Or the Rotary soccer fields to the soccer field at DP Todd.

The difference between night and day for those who use such facilities.

It doesn't matter what you compare it to, 90% of PG residents don't want it. Put it to a referendrum and you'll see.

mythoughts - summed nicely in one line.

The cost of the facility, maintenance costs, blah blah blah. NONE of that matters as 90% of us do not want this facility. Special Interest groups can pay for their own special interests.

Matt - enjoyed reading your condescending temper tantrum, OK...not really. I've seen better literary skills displayed on truck stop bathroom walls.

NMG - Wrong. Not about change or demographics at all. It's all about money.

I'll say it again....

It's all about money.

I'll say it again....

It's all about money.

I hereby sentence you both to watch the TV show, "Till Debt Do Us Part" for the rest of the month, then you and city council can all attend an accounting class until you understand the true financial implications of what you are suggesting.

How about telling me what the amortization costs alone will be on an expenditure of this nature over the course of it's financing cycle ?

Just because it's a good idea, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

If you are going to be an "idea hamster", how about you focus your energies on some kind of a plan to bring it to fruition instead of just demanding the money for whatever amount it would cost because you thought it up in a dream last night ?

We are not all a-holes and simpletons because we don't want to finance your every whim.

While doctors and lawyers and such may enjoy the performing arts as much as me or the millworker, most of the professionals I know like to look at outdoor recreation maps. They really seem to prefer to be able to just get the hell away from people for awhile and enjoy raw nature and peace and quiet.

...and don't slam the door on your way out !