If it goes downtown I can not see how anyone can support this. I knew all along that this was just another downtown revitalization scheme to have pensioner home owners of PG pay for... so a few merchants can have a little more hope subsidized for them by the rest of the city.

The price tag is outrageous for a city of this size. The triple P concept means they plan to have the public pay for it and a private corporation profit from it. That will never work because this building will never be profitable unless given away for free to the private operator and even then... it will not be accessible for all the user groups as it should be if built.

This kind of liability to the home owners who will be taxed to pay for it should be voted on in a referendum... otherwise no further planning and dollars for planning should be taking place and that should almost be law for any project of this size relative to the tax base asked to support it. I notice not one single candidate has called for a vote on this by the citizens of PG. I think I can only think of maybe three candidates that might get my vote as a result... as a matter of principle. Any project even if I support it that doesn't go through the proper democratic process, which is a referendum in this case, I can not support.

That said what does the organizing group have against the 16&97 location next to the existing playhouse on existing city land. Does it not just confirm that this is nothing more than a filler project for downtown, if they refuse any options but a downtown location?

Spending another $60 million on another home owner funded white elephant in the downtown flood plane will not save the downtown or the city IMO.

Should this project actually go ahead where are the 1000 plus vehicles going to park (assuming full house plus staffing and performers)? Downtown is already congested.

I regret that I was not able to attend last night. The turnout should be a warning for all of us who want this facility for our town.

LESSON: RESOLVE TO MAKE IT TO THE NEXT MEETING - THE NAYSAYERS WILL USE LACK OF TURNOUT TO SUPPORT KEEPING PG IN THE STATE IT'S IN.

I have a great idea that will alleviate the financial concern of building the Performing Arts Centre:

Step one: build very small building on site

Step two: call it a "Bank"

Step three: sign up for "American Bailout Plan"


With the enormous sums of money flowing freely down south, plus the lack of oversight, a few million won't even be noticed!

BEST PLAN YET!!!!!!!!!!!! smile

Does PG really have such an active performing arts and cultural activity fan base to justify this expenditure? I have nothing against such a centre, but in the current economic slump and employment situation one has to wonder how many patrons will be available to support the venue. I'd hazard a guess that not even operating costs will recovered. You cannot clean up the downtown core by adding a few modern structures, for proof of this visit Vancouver's "downtown". Ludicrous to spend $60 million, when considering you failed to fix the potholes, dredge the river or buy Heidi an Amphibex. Perhaps a personal agenda gone rampant.

It would cost about $60 million just to bring streets and sidewalks up to date (2008 standards).

Frustration overcometh me...that PAC idea is like athletes foot or dandruff...or crabgrass! Never completely gone, always ready to come back again.

As if the performing arts had no facilities in this town already? When there are financial challenges obviously one cannot have the Cadillac of everything, or can one?

"..Former City Councillor Bob Martin spoke up to say this centre will make the community grow. “It will make people come to Prince George.”..

Ya like the dozen that showed up last night. Even the "I Have A Dream" crowd doesn't show up everytime, and that aspect will effect the revenue for such building as well.

Put 60 million into the hospital - that would be sure to attract more people than a play everynight.

This venture is turning out to be a gamble, so get the casino/LotoBC to fund it. Or is that too distasteful for everyone?

Hopefully the NEW council will scrap this pipe dream!! Rediculous in this time of less spending to think that people are going to spend money on a play. A family of four in the middle class could not afford the night out.
Agreed on the suggestion to put the 50 million into health care. Pay 50 doctors a million bucks each to come here and they will spend that money here. *Grin
Rediculous to spend on what we want instead of what we need!!

Wow "whelen" if you had of shown up last nite, there would have been 13 PIPE DREAMERS DROOLING over the plan. I am not against the project,just the timing. We need a lot bigger tax base and population to support this venue. We should be concentrating on attracting more business to P.G.,not trying to spend money that we don't have. It would be interesting to see where the participants of last nites meeting derive their income. My guess..... Not many of them have ever signed the front of a pay check.

Not at all supportive of the PAC but must respond to the silly comment about the lack of parking downtown.
The fact is there is TONS of parking downtown. They're called parkades and parking lots but because you have to pay 50 cents for the entire day (and walk more than a block!!) PG folks always whine about the lack of parking.

People here need to get over themselves and get with the real world....pay parking and walking a bit is the norm in most communities.

Now bring on the "I live in PG so I won't have to pay for parking or walk" comments...yeesh.

We can't even get 2,500 people to support the Cougars on a regular basis (36 games a season), can we get 800+250 people on a regular basis to support the PAC?

Not sure what ticket prices would be for an event at the PAC, but I'm going to guess it would be more than a Cougars game.

would like to know just how many taxpayers would support this plan or are we building something for only 5 or 10 % of the population. What would we do with the Playhouse. Isn't that enough of a boondoogle.

Referendum.
Send a mail-in ballot to every taxpayer in PG.
If it passes,build it and live with it.
If it fails,forget about it!
It is unbelievable that it is even being considered at a time when the economics could not be any worse!
What ARE they thinking?

Obviously, the only people pushing this forward are those who stand to gain from it going forward.

realitycheck says "..People here need to get over themselves and get with the real world....pay parking and walking a bit is the norm in most communities..."

Get with the real world, ..trouble is we do not all live in the same world of discretionary spending.

By the way how popular are the parkades around PG? Full? Half? Empty?
Who's idea was it to build these parkades and was it worthwhile, or simply that parkades are the norm in other communities?

reasonableman
"Obviously, the only people pushing this forward are those who stand to gain from it going forward."
That is untrue.
Remember, we have a great University here. Looked like a pipe dream. See what happened - second best in Canada. Lots of spin off from that.
Prince George can support a Performing Arts Centre. This is the time to do it. Provide employment, give hope that we can aspire to something to enrich us in our community like the University has.
This isn't to accommodate the downtown this is to accommodate the many citizens who have supported by taxes the sports facilities in this City for many years. Why do we need to pitt one against the other? Why can't we enjoy both?
The Performing Arts Centre will enrich this City and make it a place where people want to come and live.

PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE! PUT IT TO A VOTE!

They will not put it to a vote especially
if Zurowski gets elected to be the mayor!
He did say it, he wants it by any chance.
He was very rude and arrogant at the
debate night where usually every body
try to be at his or her best behavior.
If that was his best, we are into worse
times with him as a mayor, than we are
with Kinsley.
Please folks, remember all these issues
when you vote.
The time is not right for any kind of
luxury, like an art gallery. You do those
projects only when all the other needs
are looked after and you have plenty of
leftover funds!

Along side the PAC centre on any given street where it is gonna be built maybe the planners could install a few "hole in the wall" shops to cater to the homeless and drug addicts. Maybe a 12 bed shelter a pawnshop a needle exchange/ crack pipe shop a soup kitchen a drop in centre and a second hand clothing store. The PAC could use the nominal rent to help pay for itself over the years. Maybe employ the better dressed homeless as valets for the hidden downtown parking spaces.

1. Dan Rodgers said that if he was elected Mayor the PAC proposal would go to a Referendum.

2. The City intends to tear down the Playhouse theatre and sell the property to developers. They tried to get the local car Dealerships to locate an Automotive Mall on the site, but the local dealers told them to take a hike. Even though the City just recently put approx $2 Million in reno's into the Playhouse they intend to destroy it. The argument is that the proceeds from the sale will go toward the cost of the PAC.

3. The most recent push for the PAC was initiated by Initiatives Prince George, which is just a $2 Million a year stooge for the Mayor and Council. The City wants to build this PAC not because we need one, but because they can let out contracts in excess of $60 Million, and the local contractors will once again stuff their pockets and laugh all the way to the bank.

4. It is pretty obvious that the PAC proposal has very little support from the tax paying residents of Prince George, this was pretty obvious by the turn out at the meeting. Politicians, PAC Society members (Vested Interests) outnumbered any local interest.

5. If we do not have the facilities for some venues to come to this town, then they should go to the towns that can host them. The few people who want to see these venues can break out their moth infested wallets and travel to Vancouver for this type of entertainment. That would be much cheaper than building a centre.

6. Present facilities in Prince George that are under utilized.
(a) Civic Centre
(b) Vanier Hall
(c) Playhouse Theatre
(d) CN Centre.

In addition we have the Theatre Northwest at Parkhill Centre. All these facilities when built were going to bring people to Prince George and increase our population, and give us some culture. All have failed to do so to any degree.

The PAC will be the same. It will never be fully utilized, never pay for itself, and forever be a drag to taxpayers.

(7) These ventures are always proposed by people who are interested in doing the actual building and gleening the dollars from the projects, but are rarely supported by the same people., The Charles Jago Northern Sports Centre is a prime example. It was built with all the vested interest groups saying it would be used for training for the 2010 Olympics, it would be available for local people to use for weight lifting, running, etc; etc; problem is very few people actually use the facility and certainly not those who were in favour of building it. They are all conspicuous by their absence.

(8)The people who are constantly making these types of proposals never take any responsibility for them after they are built. They just carry on as if spending millions of taxpayers dollars is no big deal. These are the same dudes that support UNBC but send their kids to other Universities.

(9) UNBC is a success, only if you do not understand the meaning of the word and what it entails. Spending $100 Million dollars a year to educate 3000 students, spread out between Valemount, Mcbride, Quesnel, Williams Lake, Terrace, Prince Rupert, and the Nass Valley, plus whatever number of part and full time that are left in Prince George would not be considered a success by everyone. The last President of the University did not leave because he thought it was a great success.

The CN Centre that was built to seat 6000 fans and with a WHL Franchise was and is hyped as a success, however 10 years later the fan base is below 3000 and the facility costs taxpayers approx $600,000.00 per year to run. Hardly a Success.

(10) When they first began to push for a University in this area that would service the Central Interior the vested interest groups sought to get 50,000 signatures at $5.00 per signature. Many months later the most they could get was 16,000 so even though they were 34000 signatures short of their stated goal they called it a success.

(11) When Horizen Air left because of a total lack of interest from the general public, and at a cost of $150,000.00 to taxpayers, the City tries to tell us it was a success, because by pulling out when they did they saved us $250,000.00 of the original $400,000.00 that was gauranteed.

(12) Most projects built by Politicians, and vested interest groups with taxpayers money are deemed to be successes once the project it complete, there is very little or any accountability after the completion date. You will see this once again now that the Airport Runway is complete. If we dont get any planes, and dont get any additional revenue, they will still find a way to say that it is a success.


Have a nice day.

Excellent points Palopu, so very, very true.

Wow, Palopu gives them the helicopter ride AND the bodyslam. I felt the floor shake all the way over here. Good points !

"give hope that we can aspire to something to enrich us in our community "

You need to get out more. Get your hope, aspiration, and enrichment out of your own wallet.

"The Performing Arts Centre will enrich this City and make it a place where people want to come and live. "

Just like they will plan their vacations here.

I think johnnypg said something about voting on it ?

That's a good idea, and I don't mean reverse petition (also known as stuffing it in the back door when nobody is looking).

We should put this in the trash can before too many idiots get all excited and make it happen some how.

Palopu loves digging up projects and looking at them from a negative side.

We should just fold up the city and tell the ghost of Simon Fraser that founding this trading post was just another failure.

If this was another sports field I am sure none of you would be complaining.

It's intersting to note that one of the top three on the board of the PAC, and was at city hall when they gave their last dog and pony show, is the owner of a large construction company. I wonder if he will get to bid on it.

Posted by: Lamb on November 13 2008 1:42 PM
"reasonableman
"Obviously, the only people pushing this forward are those who stand to gain from it going forward."
That is untrue.
Remember, we have a great University here. Looked like a pipe dream. See what happened - second best in Canada. Lots of spin off from that."


Reasonableman has it correct Lamb.
I do believe most everyone in PG was in favour of getting UNBC here because of the great benefit to all in the north.

There wasn't an overwhelming rejection to the university being built as there is with this PAC.

I still remember the $18 million dollar cost of the road going up to the university. Do you?

Municipal provincial or federal that is still my taxes.

UNBC was a good idea for many reasons. Unfortunately, these reasons do not extend to every single brain burp. Nuts and oranges.

Betcha on Monday when the election is over and life begins a new I betcha the phrase "downtown revitalization" will be put to rest in a desk drawer for another three years. Betcha.

A few comments...

1) We should be saving, not spending.

2) Great post Palopu

3) A referendum will almost surely result in a no.

"I still remember the $18 million dollar cost of the road going up to the university."

I still remember the billion dollar sea to sky highway improvement. Build on a slope, and you can run into problems. This is not prairie country. Roads not only have to cross rivers but also go up escarpments and hug mountainous shore lines. We live in BC.