We need a referendum on this thing. Pretty soon it is going to be $75 or $80 million. We have to put a stop to this nonsense while we still can.

Let me get this right Sharon - city funding{my tax dollars}, provincial funding { my tax dollars }, federal funding { my tax dollars}!!! Enough allready;I wanna puke. If the pampered few want an arts centre - let them pay for it.

The promoters of the mega PAC really believe the community wants this, needs this and supports this. If so, they should be more than willing to validate the merits of their convictions by ASKING for a referendum before any more money and effort are committed to it.

In fact, the city too and the provincial and the federal governments should INSIST on a referendum which is a democratic necessity for a project of this size, meaning mega.

If it passes in these tough economic times, so be it. If it doesn't pass: continue to make do with the many facilities we already have.

Grrrrh...

Brought to you by the same folks who brought you the money sucking Northern Sports Complex up on the hill (:->

Apparently you all want PG to stay the same, spend zero money and have no amenities. The sports ctr is great, CN ctr went through the same debates and it has turned out to be a very utilized building. PG needs to change and this is positive...I for one am happy my tax money is being spent on something nice. Don't attack me and say then I should pay for it...I pay for lots of stuff I don't use, CN Ctr for one, been there once, but happy it's here!

I dont necessarily agree with the PAC and definitely believe that there should be referendum on a project such as this. However attacking a facility such as the Northern Sports centre is exactly why this community takes so long to make positive changes. This facility is a necessity for both a city of our size and a successful University. Yes it costs money....yes it is costing way more to run than it is bringing in. Give it time it is a new facility. The negativity by a select few drives me crazy...if you all had your way we would have nothing to do but sit in our homes and watch other people enjoying themselves on the flat box that alot of people consider there lives

Sharon and Les,
I hope you're not reading this but if you are here's one more vote for a first class PAC for Prince George. If some of the REGULAR posters on this site had it their way UNBC would be a row of used ATCOs. They are way happier when THEIR tax dollars are building facilities in Quebec and Ontario!

I can understand an arena and a sports complex - most people actually use those and they promote fitness. But an opera in PG? That's way out in left field. I dont know a single person that would go to that. Maybe I just don't associate enough with the caviar n Grey Poupon crowd. This city could use that money in far better ways - like developing a commercial waterfront - every other city located near a body of water has some kind of boardwalk with small shops and a boat launch with moorage. Something like that would beautify the city, connect us with our rivers, provide a focal point for the city (since downtown is black eye), raise land value and most importantly PAY FOR ITSELF.

Not with my tax dollars!!! As many, many have already said and not just the posters on this website, it better go to refererendum. Are you afraid to put it to a vote because you know it will never, never happen. Only about 10% of the community would ever use this and the other 90% don't want it.

I can understand an arena and a sports complex - most people actually use those and they promote fitness. But an opera in PG? That's way out in left field. I dont know a single person that would go to that. Maybe I just don't associate enough with the caviar n Grey Poupon crowd. This city could use that money in far better ways - like developing a commercial waterfront - every other city located near a body of water has some kind of boardwalk with small shops and a boat launch with moorage. Something like that would beautify the city, connect us with our rivers, provide a focal point for the city (since downtown is black eye), raise land value and most importantly PAY FOR ITSELF.

Opera? PAC is now going to be an Opera House...Performing Arts does equal OPERA.

Oops I meant "does NOT equal opera"

No denying we need something better than what we have. Presently there are 3 locations best for performing arts. Theater North West in Parkhill, The Vanier Hall at PGSS and the Playhouse Theater at HYW., 16/97 junction.
While each serves its own purpose neither of them are adequate for a Grand Performing Arts Centre.
But the problem as I see it is that this project is turning into another "Discovery Place" situation, that started out with a simple Idea by a couple of Contractors and Business People at approximate cost of $12,600,000.00 and turned into a grand production of over 32 million at referendum time.
When the City got into the picture in 1988, and hired a consultant it then began to blossom in anticipated cost. Not only that but the consultant report was read by City management and Council, and quickly hid away. The reason, was the consultant suggested it was not a good idea. His conclusion was that the doors would be closed 85 percent of the time. I repeat, 85%.
A small group of people headed by Dan Rogers responded to that consultants report, and following a few news paper items, some adds placed in the Citizen from money donated by the group and some good public information, the referendum was defeated.
Now you older folks must remember. The Discovery place was to be built on the old Civic Centre site and was to consist of a 1250 seat theater and a large meeting room for 600. The meeting room was non equipped .
Over 20 active sport and social groups were displaced by the demolition of the old CC.
The new "Discovery Place" would not include space for any of these groups. Thus It became apparent that for the escalation of 20 million dollars, the major users of the old CC would get the shaft.
In the end it was defeated, and as a result. The new Civic Centre, the Multi Plex, The Aquatic Centre and Masich Place, all well used were built.
In a direct conversation with an Architect at ARt Erickson construction, told me that they had no knowledge of the expelled sport and social groups and in fact said that the cost would and could reach $50 million.

Lets think this thing out, get our ducks in a row, and not burst ahead on a project that goes all out of projection. COMMON SENSE AND HISTORY TELL US THAT.

A good project for Ben to pursue.

Opera? Why do people pick on Operas? Hardly the type of thing which will sell more than a few hundred tickets. Yes, you can even call them the Caviar and Grey Poupon crowd if you wish. If there are not enough tickets sold, unlike a Cougar's game, the performance will be cancelled. The sports "recreational and entertainment" performances (remember, the audience does not work up a sweat skating or running around following a black and white ball) do not get cancelled due to lack of attendance. In fact, it takes decades of that, as we can attest to around here.

PACs cater to a full spectrum of audiences. Just follow some of the more popular entertainers who come to the CN Centre who need audiences of thousands rather than hundreds to fill the venue, often more than a Cougars game will draw.

Port Theatre in Nanaimo:

- Brent Butt from Corner Gas (don't ask me who he is, but he is sold out at $40 per ticket)

- George Canyon for the country music lovers

- Rita McNeil for those from the Maritimes and other Rita lovers $50 per ticket

- magicians - Murray Hatfiled & Terresa

- Trailer Park Boys

- Randy Bachman and band for the nostalgic Canadian rockers

- McDades – for the Celtic music lovers

- Neil Diamond tribute - (without Neil)

- Oliver Jones, jazz pianist

- Gordon Lightfoot (the real thing, unlike Neil Diamond, but at $90 a pop rather than $45 for Neil wannabee).

- Arrogant worms - comedy.

I have left out what might be construed to be for the grey haired Grey Poupon group. I have also left out those uses of the space which are for children, an often forgotten part of the audience we need to reach out to so that they will not become so unappreciative of the arts as many in this town appear to be until they realize that the true arts know no social boundaries.

BTW, Nanaimo is another resource and transportation based community very similar to PG in many ways. AND, it is less than 2 hours drive from competing facilities in Victoria and 2 hours by ferry and bus from the West Coast's premier City of Culture.

With at least three other venues for perfoming arts, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them being fully utilized, I really fail to see why we "NEED" another perfoming venue...
Mind you wait long enough and I am sure the Bingo hall will soon be available...
Wasn't that the real reason it was built???

Some addtional background:

1. The name Arthur Erickson is directly linked with buildings that are at the high end of the budget scale.

2. The CC was demolished because it was structurally condemned.

3. The displaced groups were dispalced because the City felt a multipurpose facility was the best to accommodate indoor sporting activities and banquet type events. As a result, we have neither in a "nice" looking building.

4. The referendum dealt with the order in which facilities were to be built. So far, the City has followed that order. One more to go.

Fix the damn roads first!

Folks look at the economy right now. Whether one is for or against now is not the time. Lets see were the economy is going first. The US is about to tank big time. Then what?

wish it would serve 10% of the population I could then reluctanly swallow the increased cost of taxes. Whan you are talking of sums this size for the amount of population served it should go to a referundum.

This is just another example of how no one wants to pay for anything. Everyone rants and whines and complains about the state of our city and lack of amenities, yet no one wants to improve it.

How on earth would development around our riverfront pay for itself? a nice boat launch? sure - at what expense? A great idea, but unfortunatley, only those with boats would use it and everyone would complain about their taxes paying for it. No casino, no bars, many dont' want the big box retailers because it takes away from local store owners.

Something has to start somewhere. How about those who are opposed come up with better ideas and also front their own money towards a positive change to our city?

I'd also like to know where the 10% figure came from? I'm certainly not a caviar grey poupon person and I would use the facility and I know of many others who would. I love going to live performances and would do so even more if there was more out there to offer. Perhaps this city could use more performing arts, if for nothing else but to educate people that performing arts encompases a wide variety of entertainment and does not equal opera.

The only thing I find more frustrating than city council is the city residents who oppose absolutley everything yet continue to complain.

There. That's my rant LOL.

OK I'm a reasonable man - let's crunch some numbers. So this Brent Butt character (whoever the hell he is) comes to the new opera house. Say after The Butt takes his cut and you pay for the utilities, taxes, insurance, caviar and Grey Poupon, etc, you're left with $5 a ticket. Thats being pretty generous I think.

$50 mil to build this boondogle divided by $5 bucks a head pure profit leaves 10 million opera visits to break even. That's alotta Butt. 10 million visits divided by 365 days a year divided by 20 years means you'd need to pack 1369.863 Buttheads into the opera house each and every day of the year for 20 years straight just to break even. This Butt guy better have one hell of an act. Double your profit to $10, a full 25% of the ticket price, and the numbers are still pretty steep.

Can't wait for the referendum.

I said "commercial" waterfront, ThunderButt. Relax, it was just a suggestion, not my mayoral platform. You see, businesses pay something called "taxes" to pay for services in a city. The city uses these "taxes" to pay for more services. So a commercial waterfront would pay for itself through "taxes" and "commerce" instead of the Butthouse needing vast, ongoing taxpayer cash infusions. I'd rather see a Popsicle Stick Skyscraper or an Escalator To Nowhere built here than an Opera House for Buttman.

I said "commercial" waterfront, ThunderButt. Relax, it was just a suggestion, not my mayoral platform. You see, businesses pay something called "taxes" to pay for services in a city. The city uses these "taxes" to pay for more services. So a commercial waterfront would pay for itself through "taxes" and "commerce" instead of the Butthouse needing vast, ongoing taxpayer cash infusions. I'd rather see a Popsicle Stick Skyscraper or an Escalator To Nowhere built here than an Opera House for Buttman.

The Northern Sports Centre when originally proposed was to have an annual operating cost of $900,000.00 . The revenue generating figures put out by those who were advocating for the project, estimated revenue from memberships,(public and unbc students) soccer, basketball, facility rentals, etc; would generate $900,000.00 per year and therefore it would be self sufficient. These numbers were later changed to;

$300,000.00 per annum from the University. (Students membership is now included in their tuition fees, mainly because they were not prepared to be arbritarily assessed a membership cost which was part of the original proposal)

$300,000.00 per annum to be paid for by the City of Prince George (Taxpayers)

$400,000.00 per annum to be generated by public membership, facility rentals etc; for a total cost of approx $1 million per annum.

I doubt if this facility will be able to generate its portion of the cost, if the number of people using the facility is any indication. Any shortfall will have to be picked up by the City, because as far as I know UNBC is border line broke.

Its pretty obvious that there is a huge difference between what was originally forecast and what the actual cost turned out to be.

Guess what???? Some of the same people who worked on the cost of the Sports Centre are now involved in forcasting the revenues and costs for the PAC.

Pretty scary.

Lots of energy here!
I like gamblors idea of connecting us with our rivers - boat launch no, but parkland yes. Beautify downtown.
Theatre Northwest has just extended its' play Christmas Carol. They quite often have to extend their plays as they are usually sold out.
PAC would probably not be suitable for operas but does our symphony ever deserve a break. They have played for years and years under substandard conditions. I am proud of them. Never hear them complain, play in the high school play in the park play in the play house. One of the great moments of my life would be to hear them play in a properly designed performing arts centre.
It is a democracy and there will be a referendum and I will have fingers and toes crossed that we get it.

"It is a democracy and there will be a referendum and I will have fingers and toes crossed that we get it"

I have no problem at all with a referendum. The main challenge in that process will be getting accurate and useful information on the proposed facility to the general public before they vote.

I'm sure there are folks in PG that would vote no even if the thing was funded 90% by private industry. You would hope that the people voting would make a reasoned and informed decision, but alas, that doesn't always occur.

I just hope that the proponents of this do their homework before it gets to that point. I caught a bit of Pat Bell on Meisner this morning and I think he's bang on. This would be a good thing for PG and the downtown but it's still a LONG ways off. Let's do some due dilligence and really get a handle on everything before jumping ahead too quickly. If we're going to do it, let's do it right.

I agree NMG and I would like to say to the "naysayers" that if they would like doctors to look after their families they need to think carefully about the amenities Prince George can offer so that physicians want to come and stay here.

As NMG says "lets do it right". We did with the University and that was overdue. I hope we do it with the performing arts centre.

What good does this really bring to PG? How many jobs will it create? I'm thinking a few ushers and ticket-rippers and a concession stand. A handful of bottom-rung minimum wage jobs. The real money gets taken by a bunch of traveling performers right out of the region. This is a place where residents SPEND their money, not EARN any. The cash flow is totally negative.

If we got $50 mil to blow, lets leave a real legacy - something that truly strengthens this town. I wasn't a "naysayer" for many of the industrial and commercial projects that were sniped at by the latte-lifting environmental crowd, which happens to be the crowd that supports yet another stage in this city. I just think if we spend our money on creating decent jobs and cleaning up the opium den we call downtown, then The Arts and other associated luxuries will naturally follow.

"the latte-lifting environmental crowd,"
that's a bit rough gamblor. Why divide the town?
I support by taxes what you like (probably) hockey at the CN Centre. I have never been to a hockey game, it is just too violent but I hope I don't insult those that enjoy our National sport.

Gamblor, who exactly is the "latte lifting environmental crowd" that you refer to? Are you talking about the doctors and nurses at PGRH? The kids enrolled at our post secondary institutions? The people working in the service sector? More importantly, why is it that you seem to think these people are somehow second class citizens to the "flannel wearing truck driving Tim Hortons crowd"?

What the heck is wrong with having and more importantly ENCOURAGING a diverse population of people, views and interests within our City? The more we have of that the more dynamic and vibrant our city will be. This will help create opportunities for everyone and in turn, it will help make us a healthier community. Why is that a bad thing?

There is a couple of statements in these posts that are rather condescending. One is to imply that those who vote against the PAC may not have the presence of mind, or the proper information to vote correctly, and therefore by implication suggests that those who vote for it are better informed, and educated, and will make the right decision. What a bunch of bull. Usually people who support these types of ventures have no problem spending taxpayers money so that they can give the impression that they are **with the times**.

The comment about not having Doctors because we do not have a PAC is ludicrous. It implies that all Doctors attend these types of functions. I suggest there are more that dont attend than do.

The reason we do not have enough Doctors in the Central Interior is simply because they chose not to live here. When you look at the small, dirty, rundown, towns between Cache Creek, and Prince Rupert, it is not hard to see why.

Give a Doctor a choice between Vancouver Island, Greater Vancouver, the Okanogan, and Prince George, and you will see where they would go. PAC or not.

"latte lifting environmental crowd"

I think that might refer to some of the RCMP officers who can be seen at Starbucks instead of Timmy's these days. They seem to prefer the environment.

"One is to imply that those who vote against the PAC may not have the presence of mind, or the proper information to vote correctly, and therefore by implication suggests that those who vote for it are better informed, and educated, and will make the right decision. What a bunch of bull"

Huh? The point was simply suggesting that it would be most beneficial for people to get all of the information before making a decision. You know, like understanding that (to the best of my knowedge at least) that it was never expected that the City would be on the hook for the full $50M if it were constructed, unlike what has been inferred by local media.

"The reason we do not have enough Doctors in the Central Interior is simply because they chose not to live here"

Why is that do you think? I'm sure it's got nothing to do with quality of life issues. It has to be the pot holes . . .

If a cop or two want to have coffee at Starbucks instead of Tims who cares?

You only noticed them because they are in uniform and visible (which is what we want, non?) If a bunch of Dentists were frequenting Starbucks and drinking Lattes you'd never know and if you did you'd never comment on it.

I get sick of RCMP bashing.

Not too sure how one could get RCMP bashing out of my comment.

There are many other vocations that require people to wear uniforms of one sort or another. I must say I never see firemen. Ambulance drivers (not too many of those, I suppose). Nurses. Mailpersons. Bus Drivers.

Everyone needs a break. In fact, under Employment Standards, it is required to provide a break. So, the breaks the RCMP take are just a bit more public than some of those others who must also take breaks.

there are always one or two there gus....referendum..they possibly should have done that when we elected our new city council...but, referendum would sure let them know if this should or should not be done at taxpayers expense. or here is an idea....maybe it should submitted as a loan request?

It wouldn't matter what ended up going downtown - it would never be good enough and it would never appeal to everyone. Something such as this might offer more job opportunities, but still, not good enough because they might be minimum wage jobs. They're still jobs as far as I'm concerned.

Fix the roads first - well, sure, why not? But I guarantee you, they won't be fixed well enough for most, there will still be potholes and people will continue to complain.

As far as attracting doctors, various health care providers and other professionals in general - having more to offer in this city as far as entertainment really can't be a bad thing.

Working in the health care industry, I can tell you that the majority of these professionals come to Prince George because of the outdoor life we have to offer such as skiing, biking, hiking, trails... oh wait, no one wants to pay for those either.

A commercial waterfront? I really do think this is a great idea, however, a nice boardwalk smogged in a great majority of the time and overlooking the pulp mill isn't all that appealing to me.

The first step to cleaning up our downtown is giving people a reason to go there. Perhaps a PAC isn't the answer, but I still don't hear any ideas out there from people willing to put the dollars out.

Ms Green heads up the DBIA. As a new Councillor, she got the second highest number of votes.

She might have had a political machine working to help her such as no one else had.

No matter what, the single most important issue she seems to stand for is the rebuilding of a viable downtown. That tells me that many posting on here feeling that trying to create that is a waste of time, effort and money, are not in tune with the many who put her near the top.

There is no single effort, whether it be a PAC, housing the homeless, street patrols, DBIA expansion, free parking, turning one way streets into two, canopy removal, street beautification, court house building, rebuilding burned out buildings, scattering or removing social service agencies, stricter pawn shop regulations, smart growth, and on an on, that will change things.

It needs a concerted, integrated, joint effort and it needs patience and the passage time. Above all, it needs the whole city, minus two or three nay sayers, to get behind the entire effort, and it needs the City to lay out the plan of action to all the citizens of this community and take the lead in setting up activities to help in that effort.

revitalize downtown another new building is not going to do it. First you have to do away with the reasons why the undesirable elemnet is there in the first place than you can revitilize the area.

I can not believe that this is actually still being looked at!! I thought the new mayor would be smart and shelf this project until the financial situation is passed. My god!!! Get a grip people!! The markets are still up and down like a yo-yo and people are losing jobs all over the world let alone here. Shelf these "we want projects" until the "we need projects" are in place. Put this much effort into the cancer treatment centre, more doctors and affordable housing. Once those are done maybe spend some of OUR money on the roads!!

"a nice boardwalk smogged in a great majority of the time and overlooking the pulp mill isn't all that appealing to me."

You are right Thunder. There was a time when the river was the vista and the place where people meandered on a Sunday and for picnics. Major General Ganong lived there during the second World War. It has only gone downhill since industry was sited there.

Restore, reclaim, rejuvinate. Give the rivers back to the people. Downtown will revitalize itself when it is no longer cut off from the rivers by the abomination that is First Avenue. What an eyesore!

Lamb, there are two items in your post. One is about Theatre Northwest being sold out. Maybe so, but they don't want anything to do with this PAC, so don't count on their support. The other is the symphony. How many people actually go to the symphony? I have no idea and maybe I am wrong, but I would think no more than 100 - 150 per show? Am I a way off base?

I haven't heard that Theatre Northwest is not interested in PAC, outside of this site. What it does indicate is that a large number of people do attend Theatre Northwest. They come in from other towns because of the Theatre's popularity. Dollars for Prince George.

I don't know the numbers that attend the symphony but it could be checked out. Remember that they have been going for a good number of years. I would guess at least forty. I imagine Pops in the Parks
would draw a goodly number. All this is good for the image and prosperity of Prince George. It would provide a balance for the sports (which I heartily endorse) and add to the diversity of our economy.