I know the SPCA does a good job managing care for unloved pets, but sometimes these "high horse" comments about animal cruelty bother me. Yeah, OK, some people got together to save a couple nags that would have frozen to death otherwise, but that happens to animals in the wild all winter long. The carcasses become a vital necessity in the chain of life, providing food for other little carnivores jumping around in the snow.

And secondly, has the SPCA ever looked around in a chicken or turkey slaughterhouse? Or any of you, who complain about cruelty. Check it out sometime. Or better yet, go to the beef slaughterhouse in Brooks, Alberta. That's a real eyeopener.

So the next time you go to an SPCA fundraiser, where they've got the barbecue out, and look at the chicken and burgers they're flipping, then you'll really see some people who don't practice what they preach. Its a money making scheme, where they hold our pets hostage for more money.

I'm a bitter old man. Get off my lawn.

They don't have a circus to chase right now so this is what they will do in the meantime.
They should probably take a look in their own back yard first????

Interesting to note that when this story first hit the news 95% of the frequent visitors to this site were ready to castrate the owner of these horses without ever hearing his side of the story.

At that time the SPCA was close to godliness in the eyes of the public.

Now that charges are being laid and the glory of the moment is gone - it's time to stone on the SPCA.

Make up your mind folks!

100%% Opine Well said

Carges?

I have never been high on praise for the local spca....could be a long time before I have much good to say about them either.

How can you condemn the SPCA for fighting animal cruelty? Without the SPCA thousands perhaps even millions of animals would suffer unbelievably horrid lives/deaths...I for one do not get off on watching exotic animals doing tricks - it actually disgusts me and makes me physically sick! We are all part of the food chain and perhaps the SPCA is using organic meat at their fund raisers? I don't know, do you? Bottom line, without the SPCA a hell of a lot more animals would suffer and there should be consequences for abusing/abandoning any anima in a court of law - these sickos should pay!

The SPCA has indeed played a part in protecting animals. That doesnt give them carte blanche as far as persecuting animal owners. For the record: the SPCA is against private ownership of exotic animals, period. There is no question of proper treatment, nor is there support from them (in getting advice for proper living conditions, etc. ) in such cases. Thats politics, folks. Plain and simple.
As for animals doing tricks: Are dog behaviour trials ok? How about riding horses? No? Litter training? WHere is the line drawn? An Exotic animal, born and raised in captivity is not much different in temperment than a so called domestic relative. Ask someone wth some experience, other than the activists we hear from so often.
As for serving organic meat: what the heck does that even mean? Organic meat has NOTHING to do with ethical animal treatment. It refers to the use of chemicals. Try free range beef instead. Do it fast though before the PETA genius' force their religion on us and we have to liberate our cows.
I do find it hard to understand how so many people can get righteous about animal treatment while supporting the factory farm industries. Most PG'ers are unaware that there is only ONE store that sells local free range beef. Then again, most dont care. I think that would include some of the people running around with torches and pitchforks looking for horse neglecters.
Beesknees is right by the way, Saving a couple of horses is a fine endeavor, but the woods are filled with starving animals this time of year, and no one is charging God or mother nature with neglect.

"An Exotic animal, born and raised in captivity is not much different in temperment than a so called domestic relative."
I cannot believe that you actually wrote that! Your statement horrifies me. No wonder you don't post your real name. I'd be ashamed too.

"An Exotic animal, born and raised in captivity is not much different in temperment than a so called domestic relative"

So, let us compare an exotic animal such as a tiger with that so called domestic relative .. oh, let's say a grizzly.

For an individual with so much expereince, you obviously know it is illegal to raise a grizzley in captivity in BC according to the Wildlife Act.

Why do you think it would be reasonable to then raise an exotic animal such as a tiger in captivity?

As a result, we really do not have much reliable information about grizzlies raised in captivity other than in zoos handled by people experienced in doing so in relatively proper enclosures.

Do you know what you are talking about caranmacil? What kind of exotic animal do you raise or have as a pet? In Iguana from the sounds of it.

Hey, I forgot completely about the exotic animal with that neat temperament around 100 mile house. Killed someone I think. How about that Chimp, eh??!! Such a neat exotic creature.

Of course, in Tanzania it is not exotic, but a grizzly is an exotic there. Does that change their temperament? Of course not! The temperament of an animal and any living being has a lot to do with genetics. The difference between a wild and domesticated animal has a lot do to with many generations of breeding to weed out the aggressive wild and support the gentle domestic side.

Caranmacil, I gather you would feel just as comfortable with a tiger in your bedroom at night as with a Labrador. You wanna try it? We could probably get some money for the study.

“Saving a couple of horses is a fine endeavour”

The horses were domesticated and the responsibility of the owner of the horses.

To then extend that to all animals in the woods is rather far fetched. One is in a man-controlled domestic environment, the other in the wild, so-called natural environment.

Sort of like comparing a swimming pool that floods and damages a neigbour’s property and a river that floods the individual’s property.

You have a liability of how you handle the lack of repair to your swimming pool just as you have a liability to how you treat the animals under your control and the children under your control.

Conversely, you do not have any personal liability to children that starve in Somalia.

So, standing in front of a court you plead your case that you allowed your children to starve because there are children starving in Somalia? Good luck!!!

Gus, you obviously dont understand the term ' domestic' as used in this discussion. We are not talking about country of origin as all domestic (as in wild spp from this area) can not be legally kept. Exotics in pet terms include all animals other than a very few defined by the SPCA and others as being domestic animals. Cows, house cats, dogs, horses, etc. All other cat spp. most spp. of rodent, marsupial and yes, reptiles are exotic pet spp. Also included are a wide variety of ungulates, etc.
In point of fact, Gus i expect i have far more experience with exotic animal husbandry (through the Calgary Zoo) and possibly more education in the field of zoology than you do. While i did, at one time own an iguana (a very difficult species to house properly by the way) i was thinking more along the lines of some of the well established so called 'exotic' pets that have been raised as pets for many years ( pot bellied pigs, some of the small cat species, exotic livestock, some exotic rodents, that sort of thing). THese species can be kept easily and are just as likely to be happy as you 'domestic' livestock or pet species.
By the way Gus, its a pretty big stretch to say a grizzly bear is a relative species to a tiger. The two species are not much more closely related to each other than they are to us!

Opinionated, your ID suits you. Of course i am not ashamed. I also dont judge people because they dont agree with my beliefs. I do judge them a bit though , when they lash out at me emotionally. Grow up.

Opinionated, your ID suits you. Of course i am not ashamed. I also dont judge people because they dont agree with my beliefs. I do judge them a bit though , when they lash out at me emotionally. Grow up.

By the way, i dont post my name , just as the rest of the good folks on 250 dont, because i dont want to be harrassed by the crazies (you know who you are). I went through that with a letter to the editor in the paper once. I am curious, though, why somone would want to know my name in this instance. Planning to shun me or maybe slander me a bit because my experience with exotic animal species disagrees with your notions on how the world turns?

Gus, The pool vs river comparison is a good one. My response would have to be that while i might be responsible legally for my pool, i am not more represensible than mother nature. In both cases a mistake was made and your yard got flooded. The courts will decide whether the guy was negligent with his horses or not. However, there are a lot of folk out there who are getting pretty riled up over a couple of horses starving to death while eating factory raised food and yes, turning a blind eye to thousans of starving children. I just cant get all that riled up about two horses. It is a terrible thing when an animal starves to death. Nature is terrible . That was my point.
I dont really like labs, to tell you the truth. And i try to share my bed/bedroom with members of my own species. I have, on the other hand, met a nice tiger or two, and i have read many stories of dogs killing people. What is it with you and tigers anyway?

“As for serving organic meat: what the heck does that even mean? Organic meat ……. refers to the use of chemicals.”
You really don’t know a lot about this, do you caranmacil?`

If you wish to educate yourself, the internet has tons of information of what organic meat is. Try this for starters.

http://www.misa.umn.edu/vd/whyorgmeat.html

If not, so be it. Everyone has a right to their beliefs. But after doing a bit of research on their own, others might understand what organic meat refers to.

I am familiar with certifiaction for organic beef. It does NOT ensure ethical treatment of the animal. It refers to the source and type of feeds and other chemicals (ie fertilizer, drugs, etc.) So while i didnt go into detail on what exactly constitutes organic, yes Gus, i do know at least as much as you do about the subject. The point was, for those of you not just looking for an arguement, that serving organic meat at an SPCA BBQ is no better than any other kind of meat (as far as animal cruelty goes). Better to serve range fed beef. I thought it was a pretty obvious point.

“What is it with you and tigers anyway?”

I thought I also included grizzlies. And Chimps. I could also include cougars. Constrictors.

Wanna domesticate one of them? Against the law in BC. Do you want to change the law? Exactly what do you want?

I do not place animals on a pedestal higher or even at the same level as humans.

I think animal rights people are at one end of the extreme and those who want to be able to keep a big cat or grizzly or cougar or some other dangerous animal on their rural or city property are at the other end of the scale.

I prefer to stay away from extremes in much of waht I do, and I prefer to live around others who do so as well if my safety or that of others in society is put at risk just to protect their supposed rights.

You might want to talk about rights. That is fine. But let us also then talk about duties. They go hand in hand. A lot of people forget that little fact.

So you know as much about organic meat as I do. `

So you obviously know about the program at UBC. If you know that, why would you then say “It does NOT ensure ethical treatment of the animal.”?

http://www.landfood.ubc.ca/animalwelfare/research/farm.htm

`Our research concentrates on WELFARE ISSUES in cow-calf ranching, as almost no other researchers are working in this area and this is an important aspect British Columbia' s agricultural production.`

Caranmacil. The world we live in is ever changing. Open your eyes and see where it is going in this area. You might not like it. You do not have to join it. You can lead a charge against it. But you cannot characterize your position as the reality. Reality is much more complex than that and many more people have a say in what reality is.

Let the new generation deal with this as they see fit. Consumers call the shots, even if they are activated by interest groups. That is the way of the social system we live in.

Organic certification for the production of beef does not require consideration of animal welfare above and beyond the regulations regarding feed composition, chemical fertilizers, etc. If you want to take that statement from UBC (about reasearch, not standards) as proof otherwise, then knock yourself out. Anyone can post a link, GUs. Read them next time.
I really doubt you understand my position at all, since your posts clearly indicate you do not. You refusal/inability to understand the difference between exotic pets and endemic species illustrates this. Once more , for the record: I do not endorse 'domesticating' bears or any other endemic spp. Nor, for the record to i believe in private ownership of dangerous animal spp. If you will reread (or maybe read it for the first time) you will see that i said nothing of the sort.
There is nothing out of date, or unrealistic about discussing, and yes, defending the rights of individuals. Nor is
it eccentric to argue against the current trend in this regard or any other. You suggested that i might want to talk about rights. Thats true, I always do. I can't see a problem with that can you?
I am no sure i like everything about the way the world is changing but then again who does? I will say that i think i is a sad day if consumers dictate human rights.
That is NOT the social system i live in.
I was a little surprised by the rather personal attacks launched in response to my initial post. Maybe i should not have been. I confess to responding in a more peronal manner than i would have liked to. For my part i am signing out of this discussion and not returning. We will have to agree to disagree.

Talk about right. No problem. You state I do not read. I will accuse you of the same. One cannot deal with human rights unless you also deal with human duties. That, in my world, includes duties to society, to the world we live in and creatures we impinge on when we remove their habitat through no fault of their own.

Animal husbandry, in my world IS an ethical issue. The ethical issue deal with appropriate methods of dealing with farm animals in this case. Organic farming deals not only with feed, but also animal husbandry beyond feed. Things change over time. The UBC site shows you the leading edge of that change and it also shows you that farmers, ranchers, etc. are working in conjunction with such researchers.

I am also not so naive to think that this is all about the animals. It isn't. It is also about production, both cost and effectiveness by reducing animal stress.

Caranmacil

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=ecfr;cc=ecfr;sid=4163ddc3518c1ffdc539675aed8efe33;region=DIV1;q1=national%20organic%20program;rgn=div5;view=text;idno=7;node=7%3A3.1.1.9.31

The link is to the US standards for the national organic program under which organic farm products are certified. In particular, I direct you to 205.239 Livestock living conditions.

Sorry if I have to post a link again. I did not read it, as is normal when I post a link, but I hope you will and hope you will find words such as these there:

The producer of an organic livestock operation must establish and maintain livestock living conditions which accommodate the health and natural behavior of animals, including:

(1) Access to the outdoors, shade, shelter, exercise areas, fresh air, and direct sunlight suitable to the species, its stage of production, the climate, and the environment;

(2) Access to pasture for ruminants;

(3) Appropriate clean, dry bedding. If the bedding is typically consumed by the animal species, it must comply with the feed requirements of §205.237;

(4) Shelter designed to allow for:

(i) Natural maintenance, comfort behaviors, and opportunity to exercise;

(ii) Temperature level, ventilation, and air circulation suitable to the species; and

(iii) Reduction of potential for livestock injury;

No need to go on. It is just a cut and paste, after all. I do not read links and cuts and pastes, so I do not even know what it says. Crossing my fingers that I somehow picked up the right thing for your learning experience about what organic means in the animal husbandry business.

There will be a processing fee for the next edification you may require.

"Beesknees is right by the way, Saving a couple of horses is a fine endeavor, but the woods are filled with starving animals this time of year, and no one is charging God or mother nature with neglect."

That is a completely retarded comparison.

I did not want to be quite that forward lostfaith. But you are quite right. LOL

Organic meat has NOTHING to do with ethical animal treatment. It refers to the use of chemicals. Try free range beef instead.
Oh for God's sake...you could argue this till the cows come home (no pun intended)..
I think this is up to interpretation...exotic in my mind is an elephant, tiger, lion, rhino, ghorrilla etc. Deer, moose, cougars etc are wild. Labs, goldens, border collies, tabbies, simese, horses etc are domestic. Quit arguing about terminology - it is WRONG to have a tiger tied by a giant chain in your back yard, it's WRONG to abandon your horses in the mountains, it is WRONG to beat your dog...use common fricken sense!!!! Animals have feelings too, they aren't machines...no animal should be abused in captivity...in the wild, they are at the mercy of mother nature - that's life!!! You can't compare the two...

We need no more carges.
There are to many carges already up here.

What are carges?

This is about carges.
Look at the top.

OMG, I didn't even notice that! Good one!

I know the SPCA tries to do their job but I know a number of instances where repeated calls regarding animal abuse to horses were made and it took over three weeks before someone finally called back. Imagine if you called the police and reported a crime in progress and no one called you back for three weeks. Hopefully the situation in McBride is a wake up call on how the SPCA responds to complaints.