Won't this ever go away...
It is pretty much know that the Chances is the place you are going...so shut up and go.....

Referendum! Taxpayers better have a say!

No referendum. I am not an artsy fartsy guy, but twenty years ago we had a referendum. It was clearly noted that we needed the following five items.

1) New civic center
2) New Arena
3) New Swimming Pool
4) New Art Gallery
5) New Performing Art Center

We had a vote, and its final.

However why do we need to spend this amount of money. They are building the exact same building in Burlington Ontario for $22 million dollars.

Why do we need a 800 seat main theatre, and a 250 seat side theatre. Who is going to perform to fill it up 200 times a year

What is the Playhouse for or Vanier Hall?

Wish list - I want a new arts center, a new downtown and a new spaceship to fly around in.

That is sort of my thought wavoes..
Why don't all the groups get together and create something instead of all these special interest groups dictating. There seems to be so much time of the year when the present performing ares are not being used...ie...Vanier Hall, The Playhouse, Theater NorthWest. How about we utilize them totally first...then think about other venues....

And yes a performing center is a nice..."WANT" or "WOULD LIKE"....a "need" I am not so sure of...

Sorry hespews there has never been a referendum that has said we approve the building of a PAC, ever.

Get your facts straight son!

Who cares about votes done 20 yrs ago for God sakes. Things have changed like the FINANCIAL SITUATION & PEOPLE LOSING JOBS!

Sounds like uppre government red tape at its best again. Same reason funds took so long to be sent to the airport for the runway expansion. Upper government teaches all of us too be PATIENT!!!!!

We've got enough drama in PG already, don't we?

PG you must have plenty of money to build Palaces like this and your Taxpayers must love you ??

Maybe we could build it on the new runway expansion, since its not being used for Airplanes.

Lostfaith is right in regards to the Referendum, there was no PAC Centre considered, and I beleive that the Arts Centre was the last on the list, however somehow it got bumped up and was built ahead of some of the other projects.

What I want is for the City to build us a state of the art golf course, for a cost of say $45 to $50 Million dollars, this course would be one of the best in British Columbia, and we could host a PGA Tournament, and people would come from all over to watch the Golf, and the Hotels would be full, and local business would be busy, and everyone would be happy, and when it wasnt being used by the professionals, the local people could use it. After the golf tournaments people could go to the PAC and watch Hosy Fleecyano and get some culture. Whats the chance of that ever happening??

I say we build a huge indoor waterslide park or how about a mall like West Edmonton Mall. Ya thats it, thats exactly what we need.
There can be a Hooters, trained dolphin shows, a strip club that features male and female dancers, an indoor shooting range, Bull riding championships, an indoor red light district and a nice little Cannibus cafe.

I am absolutely amazed that they are still thinking about spending tax-payers money on this thing at a time like this.

Are they going to ask all the forestry workers getting layed off to give some of their EI towards supporting the project as well??

Why stop at just tax money??

Perhaps once the economy starts to turn around projects like this might make sense. But the commitment has not been made at this point in time - at least to my knowledge, so why not put it off until things start to improve.

I find it hard to believe that will all the cutbacks and layoffs and increases to the already strained tax budget, that these people are planning to put further strain on the average taxpayer. Many of whom are not even sure if they will have a job to pay their mortgage, never mind paying for a night out at the performing center.

Wake up people!!! Now is not the time for a project like this.

Politicians like to associate themselves with the 1 - 2% of people that have a lot of money. You can get re-elected easier if your election budget comes out of someone else's pocket. That is why none of the councillors are coming out against this. I keep hoping this PAC will go away, but deep down I know it won't. There has already been about 1/4 of a million wasted on it so it won't be put on the back burner at all. If they get too much resistance at the 50 - 60 million dollar price tag, it will simply be scaled down to only 30 or 40. Then it will get rammed down our throats anyway because it will supposedly bring professional people here. Once again the upper crust will get their wish on the backs of us poor slobs. Our grandkids will still be paying for all this crap these people are wasting our money on.

What are the cahnces of anything ever happening in PG that Palopu does not agree with? Or leave Palopu out of it and ask the same question.

Right now, based on what most peopel think here, chances of anything ever happening in this community are slim to none.

Great way to be on a sunny day with spring around the corner!!!

"There has already been about 1/4 of a million wasted on it so it won't be put on the back burner at all."

Most of that and more than that when you go back to the beginnings of it in the early 1960s. Include the Vanier Hall fiasco that was built to appease the people of this City at the time, the competition for a "cultural centre" where three "new" buildings now stand, with the library being the original one following the competition, then the commissioning of Arthur Erickson to design Discovery Place which included a Convention Centre, an Art gallery and a PAC. It was defeated.

Despite its defeat, the Civic Centre (convention facility) was built, as was the Art Gallery, but not the PAC.

I think none of them should have been built and we should have followed the thinking of Harold Moffat that a library is simply a warehouse for books and we should have erected a modular steel building in the industrial area to the east of Queensway to house those books.

The area where those buildings stand now should have been built as a large central park for downtown with a pond for ducks so that we could get the special interest group, Ducks Unlimited, to take care of the ongoing maintenance. We would then be the green city of the Central Interior and the envy of the rest of the province.

We could even have included an amphitheatre with a tent-like cover for the stage and operated an annual outdoor theatre festival in the summers which would have drawn provincial, national and international entertainers and audiences.

But then hindsight is always simple.

Can the do nothing group that wants ot get no where fast please start lining up to the right of this page, and the do something group that wants to improve the lot of people living here to the left of the page.

What a great idea a preforming arts center. I am all for it. Should make a lot of money.
I would say build it and Ray Gerow, Ashok Dhawan, and Shelley Sivell, Keith Carlson, Jo Graber and Anne Martin, Sharon Cochran ( President), Peter Crolow, (Vice President) Kirk Gable, Shawn Petriw and Les Waldie can finance it 100% on the viability of it actually turning a profit. As long as they are willing to put their names on the mortgage for this building fly at it. But not a dime of public money. 42 to 60 million fixes a lot of potholes and even re-paves a few roads.

We will be paying of this debt we call 2010 for a long time. Of course when all the hordes of tourist from 2010 make their way up the 2 lane goat trail to visit PG in the dead of winter as expected they can see that Prince George is a very nice town but it lacks a proper Preforming Arts Center. This will no doubt impact the amount of people wanting to move to Prince George which might not be a bad thing.

The problem is they want tax payers to pay for it... and private companies to profit from it. They want P3 of all the things at this time.

The city administration want laid off mill workers to fund with a home tax a frivolous $52+ Million dollar pet project making a private company profits... all this so a few downtown property owners can potentially see some improvement in their property values.

This has to go to a referendum.....

Gus or Owl or whatever your name is tomorrow, why do you think 98% of the population should pay for 2% to enjoy waht they want? As you said yourself, the first proposal back in the 80's was turned down in a referendum but we got the other two things we didn't want at that time, namely the civic centre and the art gallery. Neither one is self sustaining and a PAC would be even worse than these. There was an article in the Citizen a while back that stated a top violinist was here and the turnout was very disappointing. Wait until this albatross gets built and see how disappointing the crowds will be.

I agree duffer, the taxpayer should pay for nothing that does not turn a profit.

Wanna drive downtown? The GPS placed in your car will record your travel and send the monthly information to the city and province to collect user fees via automatic debit. You have no automatic debit system. Get one, or you do not drive.

Where do you wish to go with this? What is the limit of user pay?

Time every single one of us stopped paying for the waste of others. Easy to do these days. Aboslutely easy to do. Let's see who the true users of the system are who are not paying their share.

No taxpayer money to the Performing Arts Centre. Those who want it can finance it themselves.

Gus
You do realize that you are part of the "who cares how much money it will cost because the taxpayers have lots of it" GROUP.

It's time our govt's at all levels start trying to save taxdollars and start returning some of it to where it belongs.

This extravagance flies in the face of current economic realities.

I agree with Duffer. I attended a function at Vanier Hall last year for a somewhat famous pianist and there couldnt have been more than 70 people in attendence. (NOW THATS EMBARRASING) not only for the pianist, but for those who attended.,

Projects built in Prince George that are not being utilized anywhere near capacity.

1. CN Centre
2. Charles Jago Northern Sports Centre
3. Civic Centre
4 Airport Runway Expansion.
5 Art Centre (Mostly preschool kids finger painting)

The list goes on. If you build a new PAC you will get the same result.

Its rather interesting that those people who were so interested in having the Northern Sports Centre built with the Provincial Government Grant of $25 Million plus the $ 6 or more million thrown in by the City and UNBC dont have the intestinal fortitude to buy a pair of running shoes, and use this facility. We havent heard yet what it is going to cost us to keep it running.

Same as those who harped on building the CN Centre so that we could have a WHL team in Prince George. They too are conspicuos by their absence as attested by the 4000 empty seats at each game.

I was against the following projects in the last few years.

1. Replacing the Cameron St., Bridge

2. Building the CN Centre for a WHL team based on the assumption that there were 5000 Hockey fans in Pr George. (Not bloody likely)

3. Building the Airport Runway expansion based on the flawed reasoning that if you **build it they will come** rather than a boni fide business plan.

4. Building a wood burning plant to heat Government buildings in the downtown area.
This is a real doozy.

5. Building the CN Intermodal building (Private Money) ostensibly to handle containers from local shippers to Prince Rupert. This facility is over a year and a half old, and at best has loaded less than 100 containers to Prince Rupert, and these only because of the decline in business for backhauls back East. If things dont change soon, I predict that this facility will either be sold, or it will be shut down.

People of course will say that I am negative because of my stand on the above positions, however the bottom line at this point in time is that these projects are all failures by anybodys standards. The only people who cant see this, is those that are forever finding ways to spend tax dollars, or those who are unable to grasp the reality of where they live.

There isn't a single person in Prince George who doesn't have something they enjoy being subsidized by someone who doesn't use that particular service. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dream world and I question whether they even have the capacity to contribute intelligently to this debate.

It's one thing to say "we don't NEED a PAC" it's quite another to essentially say "stuff I don't like should be user pay" when these same people don't apply that standard to the things they utilize in the City. That, quite simply, is hypocrisy and it usually results in a position that cannot be taken seriously.

Which one on council is owl?

Palopu, you sure have some of your thoughts way out in left field.

1) the CN center is a plus for Prince George, money well spent. It is a multi purpose facility, that has brought many fans to its door for some class act concerts. This facility isn't only about the Cougars, it is about a building that a lot of our citizens can enjoy. People can go there in the winter time, and walk the concord for exercise. This is why, it was orriginaly named "The Multiplex"

What is a university without a sport complex? Give your head a shake, not even a good argument Pileofpoo!!

Cameron Street Bridge, way over due!! You fancy folks just wanted the money spent on the bridge, for your PAC!! Give me a damn break already!!

This proposed PAC is for a small majority of the citizens of Prince George. We will not be able to skate in it, put dirt on the floor to have bronco riding, or open a big door and have a logging equipment display!! It will be for a select few, and I say, let the rich bastards pay for it themselves.

If they do go ahead with it, I say we plant dynamite under it,and just as the grand opening begins, the show should go off with a "BANG"

What a bunch of clowns we have running this Sh^t hole!

Lostfaith.

You might characterize me as part of the "who cares how much money it will cost because the taxpayers have lots of it" GROUP."

By doing so you have pegged me completely wrong! And that is not said tongue in cheek.

I am part of a group that does care about the taxpayer and where public money is spent.

I am also part of a group that does not believe in witch hunting, shooting from the hip, wrong characterizations, etc. etc.

I am part of a gorup that believes in understanding what one speaks about. Anyone may have opinions. Only some have opinions that are grounded with information rather than biases.

Informed opinions take time to derive. I spend that time to gather information when I arrive at an opinion. It is, however, still only an opinion to some.

So, information about whether taxpayers are funding something and to what extent users and non users are funding something through taxes and through user fees is actually very difficult to determine.

How much are 32 foot wide residential streets as opposed to 28 foot wide residential streets costing us? We have very generous street widths compared to other communities.

How many km of streets do we have per 1,000 residents compared to other cities. How much can we save if we had less? Less snow removal, less pavement to put down in the first place, less pavement to maintain, less rain water to send down storm pipes, less sidewalk, less curb cuts. On and on it goes.

It would take considerable space to deal with all the places this city spends money where it does not have to so that taxes could be reduced or so that taxes could be directed to other areas.

However, the sprawl in this city is the greatest waste of the money earned by the residents in this city. The capital cost of the house or business is greater due to large development cost charges. That money gets tacked onto mortgages and people pay more interest to banks as a result. In addition the property taxes and city utilities charges are higher than they would be if the city was more compact.

Does anyone realize this? If so how come no one bitches about that on here?

People really have no sense of where money is spent and which money is poorly spent and which money is a good investment.

So, bitch about the arts, bitch about ice ovals, bitch about whatever you want. Once people start bitching about where the really large savings can be had, we can start having a rational discussion. Until then, the opinions are merely uninformed opinions in my mind, opinions aimed at easy targets, not at well thought out targets.

http://dnnfreshnet-ca.sitepreview.ca/best/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=%2FIymegX9yrQ%3D&tabid=474&mid=940

"Recent research has shown that cities with high rates of auto-dependency and dispersed land use patterns tend to have lower economic productivity than those with compact, transit-oriented urban forms. This is because after a certain point the excessive costs associated with car use and low density suburban sprawl drain cities of wealth compared to cities with more balanced transport systems and less dispersed urban land use.”

What do the taxpayers of this site think about throwing money down the drain without realiziing it?

You're picking the wrong target by a long shot, people.

Does Government, at all levels, read our opinions on this site! I think not, they do not care.

But I care Gus. These are my tax dollars, they are your tax dollars, they are everybody's tax dollars. We have a right to control these dollars that we work so hard for! These idiots, that you voted in to City Council, are exactly that, Idiots!

I say you, because I never voted for any of them except Brian. You see, I did exercise my right to vote!

My children live in Calgary now, born in PG, but look at Prince George as a s#1t h@lE, They said, they are never coming back to this dump. I am going to leave here shortly, and get closer to my children.

I have had a lung removed, bad air is not good for me, my kidneys are shot because of the potholes, and my frustration with our local Government, is going to give me a frikken heart attack, and my liver needs help, because I use booze, to get away from it all!

A no vote is also a vote. In fact, maybe the ballots whould have a yes and a no column. Some candidates would actually get a negative vote. Wouldn't that be a bummer. And if one were to make a rule that one would have to have more yes than no votes to get a seat, then we could actually end up with a council with less than the maximum seats. Now that would send a message.

Wonder what the voter turnout would be like then.

I voted this time. I have never voted for the full number of seats available. Like yours, my three votes did not count since they would have gotten in anyway.

"My children live in Calgary now, born in PG, but look at Prince George as a s#1t h@lE, They said, they are never coming back to this dump. I am going to leave here shortly, and get closer to my children"

Interesting comment. Why exactly do they have that view? More things to do in Calgary? A vibrant downtown core? Cleaner air?

Yes probably NMG I don't think they have refineries and pulp mills in the downtown areas of Calgary.

Taxinapothole (Headinapotty)

CN Centre could have been built smaller and still served all the events that you talk about, and would have been a much better building. It was built big because it is an ice arena. GET IT. An arena for hockey for a WHL Franchise, which is not being supported by the so called local fans. One of the reasons very few people pay money to walk at the Sportsplex is because they can walk for free at the CN Centre, or the Coliseum, so why pay.

We could have built a sports building at the University for much less than it cost to build the SportPlex. Most people at the Sportplex do stationery walking, so why did we need a half mile track?? Weight lifters can lift weights anywhere in town, so why did we need weight rooms, that are under utilized. The indoor soccer facilities are nice but are not used very much. Same for the handball courts. The basketball facilities make sense for UNBC, and probably would have been more than sufficient for UNBC.

The Cameron St., bridge is now History, The Goofy bridge they are now building has taken its place. What a wonderful, beautiful bridge it is. Huge steel beams, skidded onto 75 year old cement beams with hats attached. This goofy bridge will cost us $15 Million or more before it is done, and at best will do exactly what the old bridge did. Ie: handle 8000 vehicles per day to river road, first avenue, and the east end of the city. A historical moment in the history of Prince George. We should all be sure to attend the GRAND OPENING. I suspect they wont mention the fact it took them five years to get the money, and build this behemoth., How did we survive 5 years without this critical bridge???? Could it possibly be because it never was critical???

Maybe all those ninny pro Performing Arts Centre people can take their money and buy shares in General Motors. They cost less now than a donut and a coffee at Tims. When the market turns around..PRESTO! ..there's yer dough for your Artsy Fartsy Performing Centre. And as Glen Clark would say, ..."Up to and including the toilet paper"! Go for it.