Just do a google search for potholes and you will see alsmost every large city with a winter climate has some pretty big problems with pot holes.
We are not alone.

how hard can this be?
We have had paved roads for almost a hundred years.
We have virtually the same climate over that period with a little variation now being called global warming or climate change.
None of this is new.
So why can't city hall, regardless of specific city, learn that there is a freeze every year with a daily thaw and freeze in the spring.

Oh wait, that would take the ability to think.

They need the money to travel to China and drum up business for the community.

I really don't think the issue is the cities lack of understanding of the freeze thaw process. Yes we have has paved roads for a hundred years. But look back even 15yrs ago at the amount of traffic that was around PG, and compare it to the amount of traffic on our roads today.

Now take one little pothole from 15 years ago that developed from freeze thaw action that 500 cars hit in a day and subject it to the 5000 - 10000 cars that hit it today. Now compound that with the increased abuse all winter long by plow trucks when compared to 15 years ago. (And yes the roads do get plowed more often today because of the multitude of inept winter drivers in PG)

So now we have 10 - 20x more vehicles hitting bumps expanding the small holes into large ones, and the increase use of plows scraping down to bare pavement AND the use of a ton of salt on the road(again to help the inept winter drivers)which is not only hard on our vehicles but also degrades the tar and oil in asphalt.

But really none of that has ANYTHING to do with potholes. It MUST be the people in city hall.

Failure to plan is still planning to fail

agree with EGBG But it gives the whiners a real good subject one that has no end .To fix the potholes there needs to be a tax increase giving the whiners more to cry about.

That's right Loki! The city of Prince George should be taking measures to prevent these freeze and thaw patterns from happening in the future!

This shouldn't surprise anyone, except maybe those folks that never leave the city limits of Prince George.

Much of it is our own doing as well. Like others have said, there is more traffic on the road. 20 years ago, many families had one car. Now most have two and sometimes three. Vehicles are also larger and heavier than they used to be. Just look at the average truck roaming around PG and envision the amount of stress it puts on the road compared to a car from two decades ago. We also continue to develop this city like it's hosting 300,000 people instead of REALLY working on infill. More roads to repair and maintain on the same budget means less money per km of road for repair. Something has to give.

Lastly, we all demand lower taxes and then can't figure out why our services are at a lower level than they were when our taxes were higher. If we really want to work on this, let's get down to business and stop tinkering. We either have to cut services to other things we enjoy (and allocate that money to roads) or we need to raise revenues (through taxes or additional development). It's not rocket science.

NMG: "Lastly, we all demand lower taxes and then can't figure out why our services are at a lower level than they were when our taxes were higher."

We demand lower taxes but taxes have been going up every year, year after year with the exception of one year when there was a minute decrease.

In addition, we have had a new road tax levy added to our taxes plus the usual increase.

So, what's this talk about lower taxes?

The fact we have potholes is because the City has spent little on the streets in this town for years. They have been taking our money and spending it on BS projects instead.

Dont compare us to other Cities unless you also compare our tax base. The City of Prince George with a population of 75,000 people spends $100 Million per year. Anyone who thinks we do not have enough money to fix the roads and potholes is just kidding themselves. We have blown our money in other areas. Ie;, Recreation costs us over $12 Million per year. Debt servicing costs over $12 Million per year. We are way over staffed for a city this size, and in addition we have 417 city vehicles that require licencing, insurance etc;, We are victims of our own stupidity.

If you take a drive down Highway 97 from the John Hart Bridge to the Simon Fraser Bridge you will note that even with all the traffic, snow plowing, heavy trucking etc;, there are very few potholes. These even though we have cold winters, snow, ice, etc;, therefore we know that we can build roads that keep pot holes to the minimum. The bypass, Victoria St., etc; are maintained by the Provincial Government. The balance of the streets are looked after by the City and thats where you will find most of the pot holes.

Lets quit making excuses for the lousy job being done by the City.

"So, what's this talk about lower taxes"

Sorry diplomat, I should have clarified. I was referring to Federal and Provincial income taxes and not property taxes. While reduced income taxes won't directly impact city roads, they will reduce the pot of money available for the Feds and Provinces to fund their core services. As a result of those reduced revenue streams and in order to save dough, I think we have probably seen offloading by the Feds onto the Provinces and a related offloading by the Provinces onto Cities (and ultimately increased property taxes for you and I and/or reduced city services). I think the City probably takes on a much more diverse portfolio of spending than what they did 20-30 years ago and I'm not sure if the core mechanism to fund this spending has changed all that much.

I don't think there is a city the size of PG that doesn't struggle with these types of issues. People want good roads, they want recreational facilities, they want clean water, they want nice parks, they want proper police services, etc.

One thing that does hurt us is the physical size of the city and the low population density. Being perfectly honest, much of the Hart Highway should not even be part of the city limits, nor should Blackburn, Haldi, North Nechako or even Westgate. There are vast sprawling stretches of empty land between many of the various areas of town that probably result in a city twice the area it needs to be to support our population. Unfortuantely, our city has evolved that way because people refuse to live in the bowl due to the bad air so we've created part of this mess on our own.

I agree with Palopu on one count and that is that we certainly could have better roads if we chose to spend more dough on them and reduce spending on other things. The question then becomes what things? We also have to have a city that is enjoyable to live in and it can be hard to strike a decent balance.

I agree that the roads do need some serious attention though and the money has to be found from somewhere. I wonder if the UBCM could petition the Province to have the extra tax on fuel given directly back to cities for reinvestment into road repair for the next 2-3 years or so. I have no idea how long it would take to "catch up" properly or how much that would cost, but I suspect it's an amount well beyond what the City could find in a year or even five.

I lived in Edmonton for a few years, with a similiar climate. I don't remember a pot hole problem even close to PG's.

I agree with what you are saying, NMG. The City collects an enormous amount of taxes every year and I just don't believe that there is not enough money to seriously address the bad roads issue.

If the City has no problem with borrowing vast sums of money for new projects (PAC, RCMP station, 4th Avenue revival, Cameron Street bridge/roundabout and so forth) why is there such a resistance to borrowing meaningful amounts of dollars to repair streets and sidewalks?

A borrowed dollar is a dollar, no matter what they spend it on!

If my taxes go up to pay for the borrowing of money for a large project I'd rather see them go up because money was borrowed for the roads (which I use every day) than for a facility which I probably would never use or perhaps visit once or twice in a whole year!

Why not have a referendum and find out what the people's priorities are instead of letting only those in the ivory towers have the final say?

The new Mayor promised a new approach after bicycling some of the rutted and potholed streets.

How long until that new approach becomes a reality?

I've lived here long enough that I've actually watched potholes GROW!They've waited way to long for any quick fix. And of course now with no work it's going to be even harder to pay these higher taxes regardless which government is in power. I believe that our roads are going to be a hopeless fix unless we are taxed to sh$t. After 2010 games I fear that I will no longer be able to AFFORD to live in B.C.

"A borrowed dollar is a dollar, no matter what they spend it on! If my taxes go up to pay for the borrowing of money for a large project I'd rather see them go up because money was borrowed for the roads"

Honestly diplomat, I don't think that is a bad suggestion if they could use that money in a way that results in some long-term stability and improvements to the road infrastructure. If we borrow it only to have to borrow it again in a year or two, then it's like getting a payday loan to buy groceries.

I haven't a clue what it would cost to do PROPER repairs to the major roads (we couldn't fix every road), but I wouldn't have a problem with putting such an infrastructure project on the same list as a new RCMP station, a PAC, 4th Ave changes, etc. It's all capital related and while it's not as flashy as some of the others, it's still very important in the overall scheme of things.

i may just be a idiot, but how come, the highways which get way more traffic, dont really have many pothols. I guess its the starting and stopping thing.....

NMG, good points! I'm not talking about borrowing another million every year, year after year for the roads! That won't change anything!

I am talking big time - if it's o.k. to borrow 50 million (for instance) for a new PAC I suggest that it is o.k. to borrow 50 million for streets & sidewalks all in one big project!

Get it done, get it over with! Newly paved streets last 30 years or more. Ours was done in 1981 together with the installation of sewers and storm sewers. It has lasted 28 years so far and it has a lot of traffic on it every day. The first real bad potholes have started to show up only about three years ago. Now the deterioration is faster than the pothole crews.

It should now be on the re-paving list as any additional continuous patching and gluing is a just a waste of time and money.

Why is big time money borrowing for optional projects alright and why is it not alright for basic essential necessary projects?

Is it because the glamour or wow factor is not impressive enough?

To EGBG,

"I really don't think the issue is the cities lack of understanding of the freeze thaw process. Yes we have has paved roads for a hundred years. But look back even 15yrs ago at the amount of traffic that was around PG, and compare it to the amount of traffic on our roads today."

"Now take one little pothole from 15 years ago that developed from freeze thaw action that 500 cars hit in a day and subject it to the 5000 - 10000 cars that hit it today."

Prince George's population has not increased 10-20 times in the past 15 years. In fact, the population has only increased about 4.5% over the past TWENTY FIVE YEARS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prince_George_Population76-06.png

The reason roads are going to hell in Prince Georgeis because they're not being maintaned properly. The new roads are made as cheap as possible with no thought in maintenance costs, and they're being repaired just as cheap.

NMG,

"Much of it is our own doing as well. Like others have said, there is more traffic on the road. 20 years ago, many families had one car. Now most have two and sometimes three. Vehicles are also larger and heavier than they used to be."

You're not just wrong, you're COMPLETELY wrong. Prince George's population has only increased about 4.5% over the last 25 years.

http://www.snapuprealestate.ca/prince_george_city_info

Go look at the average land yacht built during the 1970s and 1980s. They were powered by big V8 engines, were longer and as heavy as trucks were. Also, the steel content of cars and trucks were higher then than they are now.

If you compare the cost of driving 15 years ago vs now, you'll find people likely drove more, because it cost a lot less even when taking inflation into account.

The reason roads are filled with potholes is because they are not made as cheap as possible, and repaired as cheap as possible.

"You're not just wrong, you're COMPLETELY wrong. Prince George's population has only increased about 4.5% over the last 25 years"

I didn't say the population has increased significantly, I said the number of vehicles has (which would result in more traffic). If you believe that the number of vehicles per family is the same today as it was in the 70's or 80's, then what can I say other that I completely disagree with you.

I also don't buy into the notion that the average car in the 1980's weighed as much as a vehicle today. Heck, a one ton truck from the 80's is dwarfed by a 1/2 ton of today.

I do agree with you diplomat. Perhaps a major investment is now required to address the roads and perhaps it should come before the PAC or other similar project. You won't get any argument from me regarding the fact that such an undertaking should be considered in the same manner as those "wow" projects.

"I also don't buy into the notion that the average car in the 1980's weighed as much as a vehicle today. Heck, a one ton truck from the 80's is dwarfed by a 1/2 ton of today."

Yeah, 1980s Crown Victoria/Lincoln Town Cars, Buick Rivieras, Oldsmobile Cutlass, etc.. were all terrific light vehicles.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/aeo_2005analysispapers/feldvf.html

Average curb weight of cars has increased by 8.7% since 1990.

Average curb weight of trucks has increased by 13.5%

So, let's fudge the math a bit and say vehicles have a combined curb weight difference of about 11% from 1990 to 2002.

Anyone who thinks a 11% difference in curb weight (spread out between 1990 and 2002) can explains car-eating potholes today, I have an indian reserve to sell you.

The reason potholes are getting bigger year over year is because the roads are being made cheaper, and the repairs are being done cheaper. Ask any road worker who has been around since the Social Credit days. Roads are only made to last from election to election.

People are not driving more vehicles today than they were 10-15 years ago, because the cost of owning/operating a vehicle has far outpaced wages and there are not as many high paying jobs to afford the $500-$600 month payments (assuming 0% financing) on a $35,000 vehicle.

I was around in PG 15 years ago, and there were the same amount of cars then as there are now, maybe a few more. There were also way more logging trucks driving through town. Oops, nobody thought of that!