But wait... dont several leftist posters on the site blame the Liberals for the decline of the industry? Well clearly someone doesnt know what they are talking about.

Of course the current government isn't responsible for the downturn in the forest industry or any other industry.

Just as they are not responsible for the economic boom over the past ten years. Just as none of their policies had anything to do with the huge increase in commodity prices over the past ten years, which gave BC unprecedented economic growth.

If you want to take credit for the good times, you must also take reponsibility for the bad.

I have never in all my life heard any B.C. forest industry CEO try to take credit for a boom in the US home building market.

The world's biggest home building market has collapsed. There can be no argument about that fact.

No reasonably thinking person would suggest that the B.C. forest industry should take responsibility for the home building market collapse caused by the mortgage meltdown, the irresponsible actions of AIG and a host of American and British banks, millions of foreclosures and the tightening of credit.

"Of course the current government isn't responsible for the downturn in the forest industry or any other industry."

Well, thank you for at least making that true and verifiable statement.

The US Government, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, Aig, Banks, etc; were all aware that the market for housing in the US was levelling off a number of years ago.

What they did was to make mortgages available for approx 60 Million people, who under normal circumstances would not qualify for a mortgage. This created a huge increase in housing in the USA and as a result all Canadian Mills went to 3 shifts and produced lumber like it was going out of style.

The unqualified people who were able to get mortgages (some without jobs, and no means to pay) evenutally had to make payments plus interest. It was at this point that the whole system started to unravel, and people began to lose their houses.

Anyone with half a brain and a blow hole would know that this whole mortgage system was a house of cards, and at some point it had to come crumbling down. When it did the same Companies that made millions going to three shifts, hiring thousands of employees, etc., began to lay off employees, close mills, and return to one or two shifts.

Anyone who suggests that the Canadian Lumber Producers were unaware of what was taking place in the market in the last 5 or more years are just kidding themselves.

This was a perfect example of ***Make hay while the sun is shining***. Well the sun has now set and it will be a long time before the US housing market returns to where it was before the scam was initiated, and a hell of a lot more time before we experience a robust US housing market.

Have a nice day.

Leftists be warned. NDP will = widespread business closures.

By the same token, neither was the NDP responsible for the downturn in the forst industry or any other industry in the past when it formed government. Interestingly, that didn't stop politicians and the companies from playing that card in the past, when it was to their advantage.

Similarly, neither would any government be responsible for any upturn after it forms government shortly. Isn't that what all these arguments actually nean?

Where are all the posters who so stridently attack union posts about the economy and get all lathered up about them telling people who to vote for. If it is alright for companies to do that, a group whose opinions are suspect due to their sole reason for existing being their desire to make money for their investors rather than jobs for BC citizens, why can't unions do the same. Perhaps it's another double standard.

Undoubtedly the forest industry will survive and expand again in the future when the world economic depression ends, and that will happen no matter who forms government. Jobs will come back again when the companies can make money. That is how the system works.

What utter garbage spewed by Hank the boys. The only reason they crow about Campbell being the champion of the industry is that they hold on the strings of the puppet Lieberals. The Lieberals cowtow to the industry, enabling them to write the provincial policy on a public resource. There's a reason that these jokers have to be 'red taped' up the ying-yang because they can't be trusted with it. Transferring TFL's between companies without so much as a sniff of public review (Kamloops); Paying a miniscule price for beetlekill but included in that stumpage is prime spruce and fir (wink, wink, nudge, nudge we'll (Liberal gov) give you all the timber at Beetlekill rate so that you can continue to flood the market even though it couldn't hold it's own). Gutting of the WCB Act so that ultimately their bottom lines could grow and workers could die on the job. The list goes on and on.

Obviously I'm a little bitter at this government because they did nothing as the industry imploded. Do something, anything, to justify your existence as keepers of the public's trust.

The Softwood Lumber Agreement wasn't a good deal except for the companies getting 80% of their money back from the U.S. when under NAFTA. Now, even if the government wanted to do something to keep things going - anything - the US would and will cry foul.

I'm not so naive that I believe that government holds the panacea for what ails the industry but for the Lieberals to sit back and take direction from the industry when it's the public's resource and the public that is hurting is just plain wrong.

And for that they don't deserve the priviledge to govern again. The NDP was never a treat when they were in office but at least they gave a damn.

Which raises the question, what would these companies be willing to pay to influence government for policy that increases profits and reduces risk costs? That (political financing) IMO would be the problem and not that they (business) express an opinion. Ditto for unions.

What is advocated here is monopoly capitalism and not free enterprise. Its an election between monopoly capitalism and larger government, and both pretending to serve the interest of the middle.

I think the US housing market brought the tide down, but the BC liberals still hit the rocks with some ships like Mackenzie and Worthington, BC Rail sale, the carbon tax, ect...

Kootenay i dont know where the facts are behind your points. To suggest that the forest industry is in charge and would run amok if it were not buried in red tape is, of course the core policy of one of our political parties. The forest practices code certainly fit into this category when it was implemented. As for the WCB i would suggest that you have it backwards. Certainly i have found, as a field worker in forestry that the rules and enforcement have been ramped up (in actual practice) in the last 5 years or so.
There is no point in the government ignoring the views of indutry. I am not saying that they should be led by the nose but it is in everyones best interest to have the industry happy and healthy. All those folk out there who feel that big business has a free hand in forest practice in BC is very much mistaken. The public has a very strong hand on the tiller when it comes to forest practice and timber management. For that reason it is true to suggest that government can have a role to play in dealing with this downturn. However, apart from relaxing some of the regulations and reducing costs of doing business what are the options?
To suggest taht the NDP are harmless and should be allowed to govern because they care is nonsensical. People have short memories sometimes.

Oh, and just one more thing - though this is more about the BC Rail sell-off than forestry - when you folks got the shaft in the BC Rail sell-job the government set up the Northern Development Intiative (or something close to that). Four months after every fiscal year investment results on that fund - about $180 million or so - is supposed to announced, by law. That announcement is overdue. Like most everything else in the world the fund undoubtedly lost money but why are the trustees of the fund - Lieberal friends, some of them - not releasing the results as required by law? Could the loss affect them now that we're less than a week away from an election?

This is what we are dealing with as an electorate. If there's bad news or the government screws up, deny, lie or just plain ignore the law until it's convenient for them to release.

That's why this bunch doesn't deserve to govern.

EatsBushesShoots&Leaves on May 5 2009 10:50 AM
Leftists be warned. NDP will = widespread business closures.

Have you not noticed the rampant layoffs?
Even Microsoft is laying off staff.

No single party is wholly responsible. No single government is responsible. When a new government is installed in office, the first thing they must do is figure out how to deal with whatever mess was left from the previous regime. Then they have to figure out how to make themselves look good, and then figure how to leave little time bombs of legislation to screw over their successor.

"Where are all the posters who so stridently attack union posts about the economy and get all lathered up about them telling people who to vote for."

I don't change my religion after the Witnesses come to my door and I don't change political preference just because some union posts (or anyone else) try to tell me who to vote for!

Ever heard of unwanted solicitation and proselytizing?

Well said Kootenayboy and Eagleone. To me it shows the forest companies true colours. They have shown their hand.

A lot of small businesses are barely hanging on. An NDP govt could be the last straw for a lot of them.

I hope it doesn't come to that, but.....

Obviously these forest companies are friends of the Campbell government and that should ring some alarm bells.
To specifically name Gordon Campbell as the "champion" of the forest industry in B.C.is self-serving and smacks of political collusion.
And beside,the "champion" of the B.C. forest industry workers he is not.
The "champion" of big business and corporate power itself would better describe Campbell.
I do not blame the Liberals as such for the downturn in the industry,but I also do not think their policies have done anything to ease the impact of the end result.
The downturn of the U.S. housing market must carry most of the blame without a doubt,but at the same time,when big business comes out publicly in favour of a particular government that seems to have a penchant for selling off our resources,I get more than a little nervous.
Were they promted to lend their support in public in the last days of the election campain, or was that simply a coincidence?
Is somebody in the Liberal government paranoid?

Blaming the BC Liberals is no different than the people that blame the Conservative government for the recession. They're just playing politics.

Caran,

The fact that a forest company (Weyerhauser) can and did sell their tenure to West Fraser without any public review. When companies are given the exclusive right to make a living of a public resource (thereby excluding the 'free enterprise' process they spout about regularly) there is a responsibility to make sure that it's in the public's interest that any new party taking on that priviledge makes the grade. That doesn't happen anymore.
I'm not saying that government should ignore the guidance of industry but they certainly shouldn't give way to it completely as they have done over the last six years (the Forest act was changed in 2003)
In my neck of the woods (yes, pun intended) Tembec, our largest forestry employer currently has over 100,000 cubic metres lying on the ground in the bush because they cut it in January while there was a shut at the mills but then shut those mills for the last 12 weeks starting in February. That would isn't paid for and is sitting in limbo if/when the mills ever start up again. Leaving the possibility of the resource going unused even though it's already cut down. Do you think that's good policy???
There are a myriad of industry horror stories in the woods that go unreported. It's not only unethical but it should be illegal.
The NDP make a lot of mistakes too but IMO they pale in comparison.
As for the WCB Act? In 2002 it was gutted in the core review process and many, many changes occurred for the better of the industry and worse for Joe worker. The uptick in OSO's looking over the industry is a direct result of the 45 or so deaths in the industry in 2005 that proved industry deregulation in safety might've saved the industry money but ultimately cost lives.
And Eagleon as to your question what the industry would be willing to pay? I suggest you look up the campaign donations for both '01 and '05. You'll find that they industry did just that.

Well said Kootenayboy!
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems at first glance,particulary here in B.C.

It is nice to see the the forest giants elite finally come out of their penthouse they live in to take the time to address the lower class uneducated people who do not understand B.C's core business.
I say to Duncan, Hank and Jim that most everyone who works in the forest industry or has lived in a forest industry town knows what they are talking about and most are tired of seeing corporations like yours dictating their will on the people of B.C. At least we now formally know where you all stand politically.
Many, if not all of us have known who these companies political preferences were all along, but it is kinda nice to know for sure, now we know.
It is also apparent that these companies are concerned that the existing government may not make it back into power again, I wonder why?...they kinda appear scared to me and I may be wrong but I also perceive an underlying threat within the words that were written above. These companies along with the B.C. government have been playing their own form of politics with every person in the province for many years now. They have shut down mills and communities. The government has hurt all those who have helped to build B.C. up by their lack of action when mills were being shut down. The little guy who is losing a house, losing a marriage, losing a family, losing a business that has been in existence for 30 or 40 years apears to be overlooked because Canfor, West Fraser and Interfor have "spoken" and because they speak the government turns a blind eye.
This is not just about the recent failing lumber and housing market or the world economic crisis. It is about how much control our leaders have given corporations like Canfor, West Fraser and Interfor. It appears that these corporations are running the province, not the government or the people who elected the government.
The logic of companies like this including the government is "If the corporation is not making money then shut it down, this then allows for the political manipulation to begin. This manipulation can result in poor political leaders being reelected, Corporations getting a better deal on timber (MACKENZIE) or mills shutting down. The reason that Canfor, West Fraser and Interfor have not shut down all their mills is because they have made the statement many times, they want to be the last mill standing and I believe that the Government is indirectly helping them achieve this goal, kinda like they are doing with the Banks, Auto makers and others, the government always looks after their own.
Over the last ten years or so mills have been closed, auctioned off and dismantled leaving many communities desolate and unable to sustain any form of a healthy economy or life style for any business let alone for the individual who just wants to make a living. Lets not forget that the government played a part in this right from the beginning by not playing their part and by not getting involved when they should have. Why do you think that you have only three forest giants left in B.C.? It's not because Canfor, West Fraser or Interfor bought out the other smaller companies and kept running them. It's because the original plan of our government and it's "big dogs" in the industry was to simply manipulate the various economics that significantly impact an operation (like log pricing and allowing logs to be shipped out to other communities) to force the smaller players into extinction, allowing the "big dogs" to have the bones that were left behind. The areas where this logic appeared to be initiated were chosen by one criteria, and that was simply the communities lack of political punch or influence ensuring little back lash experienced from these specific political riding's.
Who controls the timber price guys? is it Joe who owns and runs Tim Horton's down the street or Kathy who runs the local daycare? I have heard many people who post on here say that the government does not make the decision on setting log prices, this is not true, every log has a price attached to it...that price does not just magically appear or fall from the nor is it set by the forest companies, but mark my words, the price can and is manipulated by forest companies and government to accomplish the end to a means, passably like the re election of a current political leader in the Prince George Mackenzie riding.
How is it that there was a serious error in the setting of the cost of logs in the Mackenzie area suddenly found and consequently re pared just before an election that allowed a mill to restart after being down for over a year and a half....I think we may find some serious issues when we finally get a chance to have a look at the books that the provincial government has put up during their tenure.
I have seen proud comfortable happy people who have worked in the wood industry all their lives suddenly not able to pay their bills or support a family anymore because a mill was shut down and eventually dismantled. I have seen these same people lose their homes and everything else they own and "forced" to move to other communities that they do not wish to be living in because of government decisions and big corporations decisions like these above....."this is wrong". This should not be allowed to happen and has been occurring a lot since 2001.
This is not an over night experience, this has been happening across the province since around 2001. It would be real nice to see "Whose bed has the governments boots been under" since they attained power.
As far as Duncan Davies of Interfor, Hank Ketcham West Fraser Timber, and Jim Shepard of Canfor are concerned, they need to be prepared to sleep in the bed they have made........no matter what happens they will continue to smoke their Cuban cigars and live in their penthouses while the rest of the world goes through dumpsters, looking for food because of their Corporate greed.

I personally do not care who wins the up coming election in B.C. as it does not really matter, we always find a way to survive. I do wish to say however that we as members of the human race have and hold the rights to the forests of the world, unless we give these rights up. We appear to have given the rights of the forests to big corporations who will now do with them as they see fit, regardless of what we think. How long we survive while sustaining ourselves in the forest industry is no longer in our control and we need to take this right back.............NOW IS THE TIME.

rights to the forests of the world?
As the human race we do not have any more rights to the earth's resources than the "lesser creatures".
Just because we have opposable thumbs and the ability to build and use complex tools does not give us right to rape our environment.
rights are a human construct for the benefit of the under classes to feel they are not abused or subjecated, which they invariably are.

The main problem with BC liberal government is that it has gone out of balance in terms of protecting Canadian citizens' interests versus protecting business interests. It is now in the pockets of the CEOs. The statement of the CEOs is a further testimony to this.

Campbell has gone out of balance with other Liberal parties in Canada too. In 2002, he introduced bill 64. "With Bill 64, the BC government is still offloading its constitutional responsibility to eliminate discrimination, and leaves women and other marginalized groups with a grossly inadequate mechanism to address their human rights complaints," says Audrey Johnson, Executive Director of the West Coast Legal Education and Action Fund.

Of course the CEOs love him. Of course the CEOs are frightened of the prospect of the next government reversing all these negative policies and restoring the constitutional rights of Canadian citizens in BC.

"The Human Rights Defenders are calling on the provincial government to hear CITIZENS' CONCERNS and protect BRITISH COLUMBIANS' human rights by providing an accessible complaint system that allows victims of discrimination to seek appropriate redress and contributes to the elimination of discrimination; that includes a legislated independent agency equipped provide human rights education; and that provides for legal reprsentation for victims of discrimination." concludes the "BC Liberal's Latest Target: Our Human Rights" in http://www.hrdefenders.bc.ca/press1.html

That is why the average Canadian Joe-s and the average Canadian Jane-s are looking up to James. They see James, AS ONE OF US, not one of those CEOs.

I read all the posts here.

The one thing I noticed throughout the entire discussion is that no one seems to care about the actual forested lands. It is all about money for companies versus money for workers.

Money here ... money there ..... in the meantime no one gives a chit about the forests........

Whether it is perfomance based or prescriptive based, we still fight forest fires, we still build the same dangerous roads, we still route water runoffs the same way ...... why? Because the same foresters work for both sides.

Isn't it about time the forestry professionals get hit as well? How about the engineers? How about the professional biologists? Who is responsible for applying best practices anyway?

Does anyone really care?

Money, money, money .... give it to me .... give it to them ... no give it to those over there.

Kinda useless in the end, isn't it?

Interesting that Hank Ketchum told anyone who would listen that the Softwood Lumber Agreement was a disaster when Harper pushed it through and the provincials`liberals did nothing and sat back. Naturally now that West Fraser and Canfor have invested heavily in U.S. mills they are all for it. With all the MPB pine around, our mills should be working flat out and undercutting all the american mills. Instead under the supposed Free Trade Agreement, we are taxed and limited to a %of market share.
We have been sold down the river by these companies whose roots are no longer in our community, but american communities as well.

According to the Kelowna Courier,Gordon Campbell flipped a loony at a paramedic in Kamloops and said .."here..don't spend it all in one place'.
And that boys and girls, is what we are dealing with this guy.
The real mystery is how it was kept under wraps until today?
What an insult...what sheer arrogance from a elected "leader"!
Campbell must have learned that from a drunken Ralph Klein at a homeless shelter!
It is not hard to see where the mainsteam media's sympathy lies.

Interfor is top 3 forest company in BC? Don't think so.

When citizens' rights went down the toilet under Campbell, it was time to send his government and his rule down the toilet.

It is never too late to do that now and send a very strong signal to the BC Liberal party to elect a more humble leader who cares for the average Canadian and average British Columbian's rights.

Never too late
to flush the toilet ...

The liberals and the NDP are to blame for everything. Heres a good story to help you remember:

Fred Thompson was in the forest industry all this working life...some good observations...."if we had gone in and stopped the pine infestation when it was still in the park we just might not have the mess we have there or the potential for a fire storm as we have now in the effected areas".

A note from Mel re 'bugs'.

"if we had gone in".....99% of BC Citizens believe that we [ as a society ] failed to address the problem,,,,WRONG! The bug kill is a direct result of a decision of Mike HARCOURT to tear up millions of dollars of contracts released by the Socreds to Bill Kordyban of
Carrier Lumber in the middle/late 80`s.

Bill had devised an army of portable sawmills that would cut and process all bug infested wood from 100mile house north to Fort St. James BEFORE A FULL INFESTATION AND SPREAD. Bill had subcontracted much of those contracts to local native bands and everybody was on board until HARCOURT TOOK THE REIGNS and played political football until it was too late.

Bill suffered millions in loss, and died shortly after. His daughter took over the company and sued successfully, both the lieberals and the new dictator party have done all possible to keep this quiet, but it is public record and the press never said anything about the eventual
$300 MILLION PAID OUT IN DAMAGES to Carrier Lumber of Prince George. [Prince George and area are now a disaster area of clear cut....even the in-town golf course and many private properties have been forced to cut all trees

The rest is history, but it could have been different......JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF POLITICIANS OUT OF CONTROL AND THE BOONDOGGLES OF DISASTERS THEY CREATE WITH THEIR STUPIDITY, ARROGANCE AND EGOS OVERRIDING THE "WILL OF THE PEOPLE"

If you want to be represented in Victoria, don't vote for a party who rules you. Vote for a party who lets you make some decisions.

"Vote for a party who lets you make some decisions. "

The Rhinoceros Party is not running this time. Election time is just no more fun without them.

BTW, where is the movement in Campbell's riding to unseat him? Who have the other parties got running against him? If someone wants to send that message, would that not be the way to do that?

Move James out of there and put someone with some brain power, such as Bob Simpson, in there and we might get somewhere.

There is no shortage of bull chit in these posts. One would think that we never had a Forest Industry prior to Gordon Campbell and the Liberals.

The local pulp mills were built in the sixties, and the Major players, like Noranda Mines, Reed Corporation, England, and German Interests were involved. These companies bought up all the smaller mills in the area. Those people who sold the mills, like Rustads, and Lloyd Bros.,etc; made a bundle of money. Mills have shut down and changed hands ever since, and one would have to be a magician to keep track of it all.

The bottom line is making lumber, pulp and paper, is all about making money. No money, no jobs. It is not rocket science.
The Government has a role to play, however as usual they are either to cozy with the industry, or to far away (NDP)

Because we in the North are mentally inbred we think that our forest industry is the mainstay of the Province, and without it all hell would break loose. We seem to forget the fact that the whole of North Central BC from Cache Creek, to Prince Rupert, to Ft St John, has approx 300,000 people. We are a very small part of a much bigger picture.

Its much like our continouslly pushing the Port of Prince Rupert. What the hell difference does it make if product from this area goes 500 miles to Vancouver or 500 Miles to Prince Rupert? Absolutely none.

We have a serious inferiority complex in the interior, and we run around referring to Prince George as BC's Northern Capital. We advertize in magazines in Seattle for people to come to Prince George and refer to PG as the Serengati of the North. We spend $33 Million on an Airport Runway Expansion, on the misguided theory of **Build it and they will come**

The sad part of it is, is that we beleive our own bull chit. We should be ashamed of ourselves. We cant even clean up our downtown, but we think that we know whats best for Unions, Government, and Private Enterprise. Where do we get all this knowledge???

Clear cutting was a scam put forward by Government, and Industry, to reduce costs. The theory behind it is flawed because (a) it will take 100 years for the forests to regrow, and (b) there is no reason to beleive that people will be building houses out of wood 100 years from now.

The best thing about clear cutting and replanting, is that once its done, the Lumber Companies, and their workers abandon the area for greener pastures, and have no intention of ever returning. This is great for the wildlife (thats left) because they dont have to put up with **Stupid** anymore.

The Prince George Citizen ran this letter on Sept. 14, 1999. I saved it for future reference.

'Wild-fire Situation?
Dear Sir:
Today (Sept. 14) the local forest and lumber groups in the Prince George region will announce their plans to fight the epidemic spread of the Mountain Pine Beetle in West Central B.C.
I would hope this group would see fit to include government forestry staff and their experts. There appears to be some urgency if we are to believe the Beetle Task Force, formed by the local lumber companies, claim that "the infestation is spreading like wild fire." If your readers and I are to believe there is urgency to harvest this timber of over 300,000 hectares, then why did the Social Credit government in 1983 award Carrier Lumber a 10-year contract to harvest a similarly infested forest west of Williams Lake?
Not only did Carrier have 10 long years to harvest this grossly exaggerated infested forest, but to add more insult, Kordyban's company by 1993 had only harvested half the timber when their contract was cancelled by this NDP government. Why did Social Credit of the past so ignore the First Nations claims to the forest lands later logged by Carrier Lumber? I Carrier had been allowed to log all the forest awarded, future governments would no doubt have to pay higher land claims cost.
I found Jim Van Somer's Sept. 8 letter to The Citizen amusing in his character defence of Bill Kordyban. It is not as if anyone has accused someone of greed?
I support this government's right to appeal the unjust court decision where monetary and punitive danages for cancelling a 10-year licence. Not only had the licence expired, but Carrier had only harvested half of the timber awarded. No wonder the beetle continued to spread.
Did Carrier Lumber run into so much healthy timber that it took 10 years to only harvest half before cancellation? At that rate, it would have taken 20 or more years to harvest trees in a wild fire situation. It is no wonder that businesses and the right-wing politicians who support them, have become so synonymous with greed and the exploitation of both people and our environment.
-Andy Kozyniak
Prince George

This discussion certainly does have a lot of fire. Unfortunately there isnt much real fuel, other than partisan plitics and good old anti big business sentiment. There is a lot of rhetoric and a lot of mis or disinformation here too.
I dont know if many people know just exactly how the forests in BC are managed. As it stands BC forest practice is tightly regulated and the rules are strictly enforced. In fact, I suspect that there are more cases of overzealous enforcement than there are on the lax side. There always seem to be people with dark rumours of 'unreported' disasters/nightmares/obscenities. As long as they are undocumented they are, well BS. Sorry to be blunt here but a lot of you are talking bad science or no science at all. To suggest that clear cutting is a plot (rather than the natural choice in interior forests) or that timber felled in the winter will magically escape stumpage fees is rediculous. There is also a perception that license holders have a free hand to manage as they see fit. The FACTS are (for those few who are interested in such things) that licensee lands have historically been far better managed than provincial lands. Yes that applies to NDP reigns and the previous govts. as well. More recently, steps have been taken to bring MOF audits up near those of private industry.
I think a lot of you ought to take comfort in the fact that professional foresters and others involved in the industry are and have been managing the publics resource to high standards. To suggest otherwise is to be uninformed regarding the industry, the profession and the nature of the relationship between ministry and licensee.
What else is there to say? Kootenay: if the timber isnt dealt with this summer, THEN make a fuss, rather than jumping the gun. The transfer of a license from one company to another does not release the new company from it's management obligations, so where's the rub? Gus: you need to taker a little more care before smearing a profession you dont seem to know much about, or perhaps you are claiming expertise above that of the engineers, foresters and biologists you scandalize? Palopu: Yep, this province does run on northern industry. WHile we are not the only show in town, shut us down and see how long the province thrives.
As for all the beetle experts: There is no way in hell that the beetle could have been controlled once it emerged from the park, barring a NATIONAL eradication effort. If you have worked or even just travelled a lot in the chilcotin you will know the infrastructure does not exist. By the way Andy, the infestation in the chilcotin was larger than stated, rather than smaller. The beetle was a chronic pest for decades before finally the final blowup. There was, and is little profit to be had promoting beetle salvage /control efforts, especially in the chilcotin. Far better to pretend business as usual and save all the extra costs associated with the former. Loki, as animals we have the same right as any other animals no? Or are we better than them? If the former is true then we have a right (god given, gaia given, what have you) to exploit the resources we need just like other animals do. If the latter is true, and we are special animals then we get to decide just what rights we have dont we? After all, doing just that is what put you there in the lap of luxury typing posts on your lap of luxury laptop. I find ecopreaching hard to swallow from a member of a society built on thousands of years of exploitation. It a little preachy, i know but a lot easier than going over the whole 'man vs nature' argument once again.

"Gus: you need to taker a little more care before smearing a profession you dont seem to know much about, or perhaps you are claiming expertise above that of the engineers, foresters and biologists you scandalize?"

If a roof collapses due to a poor engineering design, the engineers are blamed. The roof collapse of the garage in Burnaby some 20 years ago caused sturctural engineers in BC to require to be licensed as structural engineers.

When a portion of a roof at Esthers Inn collapsed due to faulty design, the engineers license was revoked for 6 months.

The same goes with the medical profession, architects, etc. Cause and consequence are closely related.

When was the last time that you heard of a foresters license being suspended, or new restircted practices for foresters being put in place because a silvicultural prescription did not turn out the way it was supposed to some 30 years later?

I know more about the profession than you might think.

http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/campaigns/historic/archforestry/reports/Vol08No02b
From the above: "When are we going to stop turning a blind eye to the burgeoning number of ugly gashes on our steep mountainsides? Each of these scars denotes a few more tons of priceless forest soil lost to some coastal delta. Why does it seem that some insidious mental paralysis has gripped the forestry establishment in B.C., to the point where the existing levels of soil erosion are dismissed as "the cost of doing business" or the "price of progress"? "
--------------------
From a public document:
"Anyone practising forestry must be a registered member in good standing with the Association of BC Forest Professionals. The association was created in 1947 after foresters agreed to protect the public interest in the forests in return for the exclusive right to practise forestry in British Columbia."

It sounds to me that the profession made a promise in 1947. Do you think the profession has kept that promise? How does one determine whether they did or not? What are some of the cases where a RPF had his/her license suspended for malpractice as a forester?

How many malpractice cases do you see on the ABCFP "complaint Records"?http://www.abcfp.ca/regulating_the_profession/complaints/complaint_records.asp

the right to exploit for our needs. We have gone way beyond needs.
All I am saying is that way have to tone down things or we will harvest ourselfs out of a place to live. I am not aware of another planet we can move to yet.

Herb Hammond ... RPF
From the link below:
"Hammond began to chart a new course for managing a forest ecosystem. "I learned to focus on what to leave in the forest, not what to take," he says."

I have two copies of his book "Seeing the Forest Among the Trees" 1991 ... I have the second printing edition from 1992 which is when I first read it. I would be happy to loan one to you Caranmacil.

Page 49... "Through this requirement, the Foresters' Act PURPORTS to ensure that public forests are managed for the public good."

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/cea/archives/archives_individual.asp?id=49

http://www.silvafor.org

How can we know, Caranmacil, that a RFP is looking out for the ecology of the forests, the public good, as well as the private interests of the companies working in the forests as an extractive business?

Foresters typcially do not even understand what the social indictors of a well managed forest are. So, how can they be looking out for the public good? I think more and more some are are beginning to understand it, primarily because the public is forcing the companies to provide it.

A simple matter - why do Forest Engineers design unsafe Forest Roads which are not fit to carry the traffic that they actually do carry when everything is going full bore?

Does the public trust foresters?

We had the prescriptive practices under the code prior to 2004. Then we got the performance based Forest and Range Practices Act in 2004 with full effect in 2006.

It seems that based on the thoughts presented in this thread, people want to go back to the prescriptive system. Why? They do not trust the companies? Who does the professional work for the companies? Foresters, among others. Sounds to me that people do not believe that those Foresters who work for the companies consider the public good. If they did, why would they be concerned?

Good points Gus.

In spite of all the "knowledge" put forth by the endless host of self-proclaimed "experts" mindlessly proving how little they really know about what's happening here, or what "could" happen here if the "wrong" party gets the keys to the trough next week, I humbly offer the following:

I have been the owner of a small business, and an employer in this province for almost forty years, and as such have carried the weight of responsiblity for every family that depended, and still depends on me, and "our" business for their own well being, and my own, 24/7 for all that time. The burden of that responsibility weighs very heavily on the owner of any business, and if he, or she blows it, and takes the business down in flames, so goes the well being and security of every other family who also depended on that employer to do the "right" thing for every circumstance that affects that security.

We all know that there are circumstances in life that no one individual can control, such as the current global economic downturn, illness, weather, accident, etc., and failure and subsequent hardship can be forgiven for a lot of these same reasons, but some reasons bear no forgiveness, namely ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence, and there is certainly no shortage of that dispayed by some of the "contributors" to this forum.

Yeah, I know the "motormouths" out there will be quick to include me with the aforementioned group, and so be it, I welcome the chance to go toe to toe with any of them, any time, so fly at it if that's all you've got to do with your time.

Meanwhile, I sincerely wish the CEO's of our largest employers in this Province the wisdom, good fortune, and fortidude, to do the "right" thing for their Companies, and support the government that will do it's best to keep those Companies as prosperous as possible for decades to come, so that those families that depend on them can be as prosperous as possible in turn.

Virtually every citizen in BC needs to know they won't "blow it", and take us all down in flames with them.

"Interfor is top 3 forest company in BC? Don't think so."

Well you think wrong.

I dont see a huge upswell of distrust for foresters out there gus. If there is, then they ought to get out more and learn what being a forester really means. There are always people who want to see the down side in everything. Do you even know what the differences are between prescripive and performance based forestry on the ground? Do you, or those great many people you mention who distrust foresters understand that foresters are ultimately responsible for the outcome of the areas they manage? Professional foresters are responsible for proper management of the public' interests on crown forest lands. If they fail to do so they can lose their ticket. If you want to smear the ABCPF (professional foresters) you had better have more than some peoples vague suspicions or you end up looking like a fool.

Sorry i missed some of your other posts there gus. WHich unsafe roads are you talking about? Are you sure they were designed by professionals for the uses they are being put to today? Do you really buy that the traffic deaths on foreast roads are due to bad roads rather than bad driving and more importantly, greatly increased traffic and diversity of users?
Your suggestions that foresters/engineers dont know what they are doing (when presumably you do) is just uninformed nonsense. Anyone can throw out such suspicions and accusations, lacking in any proof or sense.

Oh yes, i have read hammonds book. there are some good points there, but i dont feel a lot of it is practical forestry as it exists in northern BC. THere is also nothing there to reflect on modern RPFS. You should do some actual research yourself gus. I have a lot of experience with the prescriptions you are touting so forcefully. You dont know what you are talking about, trust me. This is more than evidenced by your assertion that RPF's ought to be disciplined if a presription doesntwonk out as planned. You clearly have no real experience. Reading web sites and posting links doesnt give you expertise.

The original letter identified what these three forestry giants wanted us all to hear and likely think that perhaps they can influence our election choices to some degree. Why else would it be written?

If you read that "message" and take it all for face value, it makes perfect sense.
The "message" is that the BC government has nothing to do with the economy south of the border and therefore "concludes" that it is just this US housing collapse which has devastated our economy as well.

Keep in mind that it was an incestuous relationship between the US financial giants and the US government that built a system which had to collapse at some point. It was inevitable that it was a matter of "when" and not "if" this was going to happen.
Even Greenspan now admits this unbridled greed was going to ultamately devastate the economy and they knew it early on.
Greed and government in colusion to a known deadend. Remember that point.

The writers of the "message" are right in that our CURRENT forest industry (which is largely themselves)is dependent upon one market. However,they do not explain the details why this has happened or who is responsible for leading our forest industry towards this structure or that our governments have facilitated this forest industry structure.

The situation we are in did not just happen and this situation was inevitable to occur and there was a responsibility to avoid this inevitable predicament we are in. Regardless of what the giant forest companies wanted and recieved for their bottom lines, government's responsibility is to the whole of society, including economic sustainability of its communities and citizens. (This sounds like the NDP chant, but they too have proved no commitment to this objective.) All parties and BC governments for decades, have directly participated in this corporate concentration and facilitated its path to where we now are.
Again there is a difference in taking what appears to be simply logical at face value or looking beneath what motivations exist and who facilitates the delivery of what is needed to accomplish what powerfull corporations demand and usually get.

The writers of the "message" tell us that we are all in this together by imp lieing that what is good for them is good for us. This is sadly and largely true now that we are effectively dependent upon their success which dominates our economy through regional monopolies. Regional monopolies which our governments have embraced and sometimes actually manipulated the failures of competing companies so as to ensure the major corporations would have an unimpeded opportunity to succeed.
What do you think is the central core of the softwood lumber dispute?

A monopoly is a convenient opportunity for demanding subsidies, or justifying the delivery of subsidies as there is dependence on this monopoly controlled by a large corporation. Common good has no place in the equation when you cannot speak against or act against what you are wholly dependent upon. When there is no competition, there is nothing left to measure against and; what "they" tell us
is difficult to argue and when no options are allowed to establish or succeed, there is no one left to objectively weigh exactly what is proper or justifiable for the public's best interests.

The big corporate writers state that the current softwood agreement is good and imp lies that it is good for Canada.
Actually it is very good for them and very bad for Canada as it gives them advantage over existing and new value added type producers which would compete for timber supply. How was it that our governments thought nothing of expanding the scope of the export tax to apply to value added products when this was not what the US coalition originally demanded to be penalised? Is it just ironic coincedence that this happenned as part of the softwood "deal"? It is really ironic that softwood duty refunds quickly went to purchasing US lumber companies that are now advantaged by a Canadian export tax...and the giant Canadian lumber companies supported this agreement of course... because it works for their continued Canadian monopolies as well as their growing international agenda.

All they have to do is hang in there until the corporate/government caused financial disaster heals so that this forest industry/government structured control of the north american lumber industry can reap its corporate rewards.
This by the way will be at the US consumers and our Canadian expense.

Caranmacil .....

Can we meet somewhere and I will gladly provide you with my credentials that allow me to reference considerable experience over the last 20+ years both as a professional (not in forestry) and practical experience in working with RPFs plus technologists and technicians as well as woodland contractors.

I am not sure why you keep attacking my knowledge base without knowing what that is.

Please keep in mind that not all professionals are of like mind. There is a whole spectrum out there within all professionals. Even if I was a professional Forester, I know enough about the profession that I would very likely form the same opinion.

No system is infallible. To not accept that there are major concerns with forestry roads and the safety of those who use them must be quite far removed from the industry.

Those who do work with the safe use of forestry roads know that it is a multi-pronged solution - engineer, educate, enforce, evaluate.

The enigneering part deals with the physical building, maintenance and use protocols. All three of those "engineering" aspects of forestry roads are not working properly. For a professional working in that field to not understand that I would suggest that the person is not practicing due diligence.

Some examples I can point to along almost any 20km stretch of a frestry Road in this region: road vertical and horizonatal curve combination not appropriate for the design speed of use, road shoulders not capable of handling vehicles that might have to move over to make way for oncoming traffic, inadequate number of turnouts for the traffic, inadequate road width for the traffic, washboard conditions that are not maintained, inadequate road camber that cause washboard roads, roads banked down to the outside of a horizontal curve rather then the inside ......

You get the idea.

Your turn. Tell me why a randomly chosen 20km stretch of a Forestry Road around here would not be inadequately engineered in at least half of those listed elements.

Caranmacil ...

A hint. If you look at the SFM plans for the two local forest planning areas you will find my name there.

http://www.canfor.com/sustainability/certification/csa.asp

Maybe yours is even there and we sit at the same table sometimes .... :-)

Its a small world, and even a smaller community.

http://www.fac.gov.bc.ca/forestPracCode/fpcsm07.htm#2005-FOR-004(b)

2005-FOR-004(b) Pope and Talbot Ltd. v. Government of British Columbia

A prescription was written and presumably signed off by an RPF. The MoF accepted the prescription. The prescription was not followed. The MoF fined the company because they cut in contravention of the prescription.

They accused the Harvesting contractor of not following the prescription.

Where was the professional forester or where were the professional foresters in this situation? Why are they not cited?

This is not an uncommon matter in front of the appeal board. Why? who is not doing their job? The janitor?????

Great posts windigo and supertech.

The astro post is another story.
I suggest you read the court's decision which ruled in favour of Carrier and against the ministry of forests.

I suggest that if you can comprehend the slightest degree of contract law that you will understand that what goverments did to Carrier was grossly improper,illegal and KNOWN to be so from the beginning.

I for one am a taxpayor which does not think that our governments should destroy companies and fight them in court on our tab, especially when they know what they have done is illegal and improper.

When Harcourt and other NDPers decided to force out Carrier to calm the protests by local natives,they could have done it honestly and just paid Carrier or gave them another source of timber. But this group of NDPers didn't do that and instead decided to find a way to have the bureaucracy contrive a way to cancel Carrier's licence.

This was not the fault of the natives or the fault of Carrier lumber but was clearly a fault of government, both politically and by the executive of the ministry of forests. The attorney general and its legal advisors were prepared to fight this case to the death and despite the knowledge which they had from the start, that government was defending a wrongfull set of acts which it committed.

When Justice Parret handed down his scathing judgement upon the government, which clearly identified the wrongdoings by government, it still refused to concede. IMO It was only because of the relentless journalism of Rafe Mayer which brought this travesty of justice to a public level of outrage which forced the political intervention to not appeal the court's decision and ordered a settlement be paid to Carrier.

Our politicians failed us by their dishonourable conduct, our bureacracy failed us and broke the law, our attorney general lawyers fought an improper and illegal fight and our courts nearly failed us completely.

If you cannot understand what government did to Carrier was wrong, or think that it is ok to destroy companies (which employ people, pay taxes etc.)
and destroy and try to break them in court knowing that it was the government that was breaking the law, perhaps you would have been a good candidate to be one of those attorney general lawyers?