Let's be clear about this.

The U.S. says they don't require our lumber because they can produce enough for their own needs themselves. Well then, can someone please explain to me why we are shipping truckload after truckload of raw logs to them. Almost all of the loads I see heading south are the most prime looking wood that a sawmill could possibly want.(I also note the number of loads of woodchips being sent down there as well.)

There is no doubt in my mind that they would require our lumber if Gordo and his ilk would IMMEDIATELY halt the shipment of raw logs out of our province and most particularly to the U.S.I would be willing to wager that without our raw materials our lumber exports to the U.S would almost immediately increase.

To hell with NAFTA, they only use it as a club against us and we don't have to take it any more.

"Almost all of the loads I see heading south are the most prime looking wood that a sawmill could possibly want"

- Not out of the northern interior or prince george district. If your seeing "prime" wood leaving prince george heading south via truck its heading to dunkley. We get a couple rail cars now and then leave the northern interior for log home builders across the boarder but its only max 2 car loads every month during hauling periods depending on the demand. The bulk of the log exports are done on the coast and in the southern interior.

It don't matter where its coming from in BC. SHUT THE FREAKIN DOOR. SCREW NAFTA.
Next big hurricane they would be just a beggin.

You guys dont know what your talking about.

Firstly Northmen is right. The logs going South would be going to Dunkley. Its one of the few mills left in the area that still saws the big logs. Insofar as the woodchips go I suspect that they are going to the two pulp mills in Quesnel.

It would be a cold day in Hell before any logs in the Interior were sent by truck to the US for processing. It is to say the least cost prohibitive, plus most BC Logging trucks would not be allowed in Washington state, because they do not conform to US Law.

Log exports are usually destined to Japan or Russia. They have been sending raw logs out of Prince Rupert since at least 1965, and I suspect the same from the Queen Charlottes, and the Vancouver Area.
Dont expect this to change anytime soon.

Lets not forget that it wasnt that long ago that Canfor shut down Netherlands Overseas Mills, then they shut down the Upper Fraser Mill, the the Mackenzie mill, and then Winton Global Planer on river road. (Canfor has a one third interest in Winton Global) now they will shut down Rustads. To make matters worse the North Central Plywood Plant burnt down and will not be replaced.

If there was any chance that these mills could continue to make a profit for Canfor they would still be running. The bottom line is that the demand for lumber is shrinking and therefore production has to be curtailed.

BC supplies only a small part of the overall export of lumber to the US. We tend to forget that Alberta, Sask., Man., Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, also are big exporters of lumber.

Without the US as a customer for our lumber, this industry in BC would dead.

With Canadian Dollar rising again, and Obama's "buy American" policies and tax breaks, the Wood industry in BC and Canada will be hit by more storms in the next 3 years.

At the end, it might look like UK's Manchester after post industrial crash. Perhaps BC wooden economy should be shifted to other sectors, considering
the milder climate than Manitoba and Saskachewan and access to the Ocean.

I should have clarified, I live in the southern interior and believe me the logs and chips are heading south.

The point I was trying to make was if they don't need lumber why do they need logs?

Not sure where in the Southern Interior you are netsurfer, but do know that Garbage from Vancouver is hauled to Cache Creek in chip trucks, unloaded, and then reloaded with woodchips for the pulp mills in Vancouver Island etc; This has been going on for a number of years, however the Cache Creek site will no longer accept garbage after this year. Unless the chippers in Cache Creek can find another market then they will close down.

I suspect that any logs going South are destined to Mills around Vancouver, or New Westminister, it is highly unlikely that they would be going to the USA.

Thats my take on it, I could be wrong.

110 years later .... nothing has changed .....

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B04E5D81039E433A2575AC0A9679C94699ED7CF

Not to long ago I read where it is said that no more than 5% of logs cut in BC overall can be exported. What was left out of that report is 25% of the logs cut on the coast are exported, but keeping within the province wide 5%. A little liberal slight of hand. Lots of mills gone on the coast with that little trickery of numbers.

Why is it so hard to get FACTUAL information which will tell us how many logs are being exported, who is exporting them and where they are going? Could it be that the factual information will cause some disruption to the rhetoric that is being thrown around on this subject by both sides?

I honestly don't have a clue who to believe. The govt makes it sound like virtually no wood is leaving, the unions and the NDP make it sound like the entire forest is leaving. Someone is obviously wrong, so why doesn't either party throw some facts out there to support their position?

I have to wonder if mill closures could have something to do with union breaking ?? With the plywood plant gone and now Rustads Mill going, Prince George has lost a lot of Jobs so why in a recession is our Government bringing in people from other countries to work in places like T.H. Word has it the business has to pay them 10 dollars per hour and provide a place to stay. If you own the place it sounds like a win win situation for the business and are they paying all the employess all the same wages ?? and is the Goverment kicking in money?? People are going to have to look else where for Jobs to support their families. What is Prince George going to be left with, a bunch of Homeless and drug addicts as they are bringing them in from all over Canada. If things don't work out at Baldy Hughes I am sure they don't get tickets HOME or do they stay in P.G. and hang around downtown.

Palopu, I find your 'facts' suspect. I knew guys that hauled garbage to Cash Creek and they didn't do a return haul of chips... wouldn't that contaminate the chips (ie no plastic). Also what about the PG Sort Yard... their main business is exporting raw logs and bulk saw cut timbers to mills down south for further milling... outfits in Vanderhoof and Fort St James are also doing the same.

A lot of wood chips are heading south to Quesnel from chip plants near Fort St James, and hog from Clear Lake, but that is about all that heads south from this area in the split off bi-products.

Also BC has 40%+ of the Canadian lumber export market to the US, so its not a small part of the Canadian export makeup, but rather a significant portion. The BC interior alone makes up more than 25% of Canadian exports.

IMO raw log exports undermine the viability of many BC mill towns.

Read the bottom of this story that deals with a proposal to extend the life of the Cache Creek dump.

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=912df2a7-b6ab-4f5c-a19a-ef7bfed28b01

As they say, where there is a will, there is a way.

"why in a recession is our Government bringing in people from other countries to work in places like T.H."

Are they bringing them in? I did not realize that.

There is talk of bringing some in as guest workers for the simple reason that we do not have people here that want to do the jobs, the same as some other countries went through over the years. Remember, we are entering the years when a larger and larger percentage of people are beginning to retire and we will need to become more efficient at doing things as well as having to supplement our workforce in one way or another. It is a simple fact of demographics.

This has been known for some time, as in decades, and I am very surprised that there has been little planning for the next 10 to 20 years when Canada will go through that hump.

There are several countries in Europe who have gone through an era in the 60s and 70s and even later where there simply were not enough people willing to work at some menial service jobs and line manufacturing jobs while their natural born citizens still had a relatively high unemployment rate.

I remember over the years, that if you wanted to write a letter to the Editor, you had to give all your personal information, i.e. FULL NAME, address, phone number etc. It really kept the BS down to a roar!!

Now, you can come on to these news sites, use a "handle" and say pretty much anything you want, about any subject, that you pretty much know nothing about! Nobody will be able to identify you, because you don't have a real name!

I like to hear your comments, really I do, but do your research before you spew!!

Some of you, your comments are suspect to say the least. And that is not to say, that I have not spewed, when I don't have all the information! And I do apologize for those times!!

But please, read everything, and "UNDERSTAND" it, before you slam another's comments!!

Have a great weekend!!

The garbage disposal facility at Cache Creek would have not been feasible without the reveune made from back hauling woodchips. The woodchip operation is right beside the highway and pretty easy to spot. Its been there for years, and their yard is full of chips, and chip trucks.

The garbage does not contaminate the chips, obviously, or they wouldnt be doing it.

just came thru Cache Creek last week --- I didn't see anything at the chipping site --- I think it's all closed up -- gone.

Response to the announcement, just prior to the election, that Canfor would be starting up one shift in Mackenzie.

Posted by: Windigo on May 2 2009 12:20 PM

Good for Mackenzie, lets hope it last for a while.
Kinda easy to put in perspective when you consider that the talk (which could all be rumor, but I don't think so)on the street is Canfor Radium is going down indefinite and so is Isle Pierre.
Watch your butts you guys in Mackenzie, you will probably see more logs moving out of your community and into P.G. Remember, it's easier to give out some crumbs when people are hungry rather than give back the whole cake.
Most of this is about politics as our political leader needed to have something that could be construed to be positive happen in Mackenzie to sway the vote his way. He has been throwing money around everywhere except in Mackenzie, he was forced to play his trump card...remember the connection between our political leaders and Canfors elite, they are political buds.
Was there not well over 500 direct jobs taken away combined between Canfor and AbitibiBowater...60 jobs returned including suppliers is minuscule when this is considered.
I am Happy for the community of Mackenzie but any politician should be embarrassed to stand up in front of a group of people who have had their food money taken away and left to starve because they were a high cost producer only to have them later announce that they are going to be given back less than one tenth of what they had to begin with.
By the way the talk is the union agreed to significant reductions (rumor again states better than 20% across the board, I was told this by Canfor Employees in P.G., Houston & Quesnel)just to get back to work. I wonder how long it will be before this is implemented in other plants within Canfor operations.

Just because the snake appears to move away after biting you does not mean it will not bite or strike again...proceed with caution.


Looks like the snakes have bitten again. Seamutt, you are correct in your statement about the coastal log exporting program and yes many, many mills have been forced to close, completely shutting down the communities that relied on these sawmills for employment.
Logs have been leaving B.C. for a very long time, Mackenzie and Prince George are just two more communities that can be added to the desolate communities that are allowing this to happen. You all need to remember Jimmy P, Jim S and our government leaders do not care about communities or people. The driving force behind these three entities is power, money and greed. The Mackenzie community was and still is disabled, even if Canfor starts up on one shift, that is still 440 jobs less than there was there two years ago. If you don't like what is happening then change it, make some noise, replace your words with action. If you were the government all you would have to do make change is pass on some form of gratuity to big corporations or others whom you know will support you if they were passed a bone or two, and guess what? you have changed things to closer mirror your vision.
Where are the gratuities that were being thrown around prior to the election now. Now that the election is over with, these gratuities all appear to have dried up. Where are our leaders now? has the world suddenly stopped because the election is over.
Politics has never been about, or for the people....governments, big corporations and banks have always been the true leaders of the communities of the world. The statement "Human see....Human do" says it all. The majority of people have all been taught that money power and greed represents success, so this is what the majority of the populace chases, regardless of consequence....pretty sad hey.
I have personally seen many communities completely shut down over the past 10 years because the major employers in the community, which was always the sawmills, have been shut down. In every single one of these communities, the logs in the area have either been shipped out to operations like Canfor and West Fraser plants or sold outside of B.C. Very few if any of these communities were able to regenerate any form of a forestry industry at all after the resulting devastation left behind from the decision to shut down mills in the communities.
The government, Canfor, West Fraser and Interfor fully support and fully promote this practice.....they are the big dogs right now and do not want to allow any form of competition.
I am very disappointed to see these three mills going down, but this was all planned well before the election, it was just not announced until all the ballots were counted.... kinda ironic don't yah think? Don't believe for an instant that these operations are going down just because of the U.S. housing crisis, there are bigger and badder things being planned by these corporations and our leaders, believe me they do not appear to be for the betterment of British Columbians.

I am sorry to see this happen to these communities, but knowing the corporation, it's leaders and it's direct affiliation with the government, this does not surprise me one bit.

In my travels to the coast, I have not seen the Cache Creek chip plant operating for about two years now.

I agree HabsFans.
I have been watching it as well and you would think with all the available fiber it would be going flat out!
Another one of those things that make you go "hmmmm..."

This is a good article that describes the tranportation of wood chips and garbage within the same trailer unit.

http://oldweb.northampton.ac.uk/aps/env/Wasteresource/1997/Apr97/97apr46.htm

Interesting to see where the chips were going.

http://www.allbusiness.com/chemicals/specialty-chemicals-industry-cleaners/11434604-1.html

That may be one of the reasons why the Cache Creek chipping facility is no longer operating.

However, there are still very recent articles about extending the Cache Creek site and they mention back hauling chips again.

"The driving force behind these three entities is power, money and greed."

I hope you are including unions in this group of 3.

As far as shipping raw logs consider this: If they can afford to make lumber paying what Canadain companies pay for lumber then what is really the problem? The answer is the lack of productivity that has been created by union entitlement. Union have already killed the auto industry. Unions will kill the lumber and pulp industry if we dont become more productive.

Why should the people of BC, who own the logs, take less so that someone can be paid more than ALOT of other laborers? How many of you were happy to see your tax dollars go to auto workers? I bet none. So whats the difference if we give cheap logs to keep forestry workers working. The answer is nothing (see opprotunity cost).

Its going to take some concessions to keep these companies alive. Salaried employees have given up between 17% and 35% of their compensation. What has the union given up? The answer is nothing. That has to change or bye bye jobs.

OMG! everybody lets work for minimum wage so Jimmy Pattison doesnt have to join a food bank line. The 'unions killed the auto industry'? Wow! what drugz are you on bub?

Wow, union entitlement is the problem, is this the new title for workers who have an agent to negotiate on thier behalf?
We could have a system like China where CEO's who own state of the art factories live in $10 million condo's in Hong Kong while the workers who provide the labour for them live in mud huts.

Everyday we still see CEO compensation packages that make professional athletes look like they are on minimun wage.
In fact just this week we see our own CPP top executives recieving huge compensation for a losing performance in 2008.

What needs to be put in place is CEO compensation regulation by the SEC so that compensation can be in line with company performance. Having an incompetant CEO negotiate a lousy deal with a union or make bad deal in business needs to be reflected in his paycheck.

Firstly I am a Raw log exporter- I see alot of comments on the subject which are completly incorrect- there is lots of information on who and where logs are being shipped (search the MOF site- a bi-weekly list tells you who- the where is a little more difficult). Logging trucks headed to the US from the Bush- highly unlikely for a number of reasons- most log exports require a minimum of 4 weeks advertising and then up to a week to get a export permit- the only exception may be green standing permits(interior only- not used on coast)- secondly the US buying few logs these days- most to Japan, Korea or China. Only about 4% of BC AAC is shipped out in log form of which 50% is off private lands (timber not owned by the public). Currently their is an under cut of 33 million cubic meters in BC, so the 4% of the AAC being exported is truly surplus to BC needs. Housing starts are at a all time low in the states- less than 500,000 which is approx one third of normal which is one reason these mills are shutting down. (low prices for lumber and logs is also a concern).

I don't need a loudmouth to negotiate my salary for me. I am very capable of making a decision with my employer and finalising it with a handshake. CEO's are paid by a private company. Union heads are paid by the working class. What about union heads? What is their paltry little pension amount to. What is their salary for doing nothing but yapping? C'mon you union guys - - lets get the truth about that as well.

Supertech what was that loudmouth statement about?
When companies are traded on any exchange they are far from private and are regulated by the SEC.

It would be interesting to see if you Supertech, would have the same negotiating-handshake success as you curently enjoy in another part of the world where collective barganing is illegal.

The next time you get your teeth fixed on a company benifit plan whether you work for a company that is union or not, think a bit about who fought for those benefits that you claim to settle with a handshake.

I am not a union member, in fact I work seasonal and negotiate my salary twice a year in two different industries. Most of the benefits that I enjoy are not from my super negotiating skills or my highly specialized talents, they stem from labour leaders who fought for workers rights for the last 60 odd years in this country.

So Supertech before you put your shoulder out of joint patting yourself on the back, give your head a shake!

Wouldn't want to get too embroiled in whether there should or shouldn't be raw log exports, since there's some pretty good reasons both "for" and "against". We could always legislate an end to the practice, of course. And enforce it. But I don't know just how we could ever enforce a law that those countries now buying our raw logs HAVE TO buy our lumber instead. Likely, we'd lose both the log market, and the lumber one too.

But that's not an argument I'd want to get into. Instead, I'd be curious to know just how much of the exportable wood off private forest lands consists of essentially "taking the best (part of the tree) and leaving the rest" to rot or be burned.

From what some friends on Vancouver Island tell me, the waste piles of often perfectly good sawlog material and other usuable fibre grow pretty high when logs to export specs are being manufactured.

Yet there doesn't seem to be much effort put into trying to market this wood locally, or utilize it at all.

Now one time, many years ago, a sawmill owning friend of mine down in the Comox Valley was offered all the 'buckskin' western white pine logs that had accumulated in one of the then major Company's dryland sorts. At a very attractive price. There was about 3-4 acres of it, piled up s high as a self-loader on a logging truck could get it.

This was wood that had been killed by 'blister rust', and the outside 'rind' of sapwood usually was punky. But inside, the heartwood was often just as good as when the tree was alive. The trees themselves were from between a foot to about twenty inches, or more, in diameter. Not like the 'doghair' lodgepole up here, so there was still plenty of good wood in them.

As snags, at that time, they had to be felled. And though they were supposed to be left in the bush, a goodly number of them still found their way into the dryland sort. Where they were soon a space-taking nuisance.

This little mill took the wood, and developed quite a local and V.I. market for white pine lumber over the space of a year or so. But when the initial log supply ran out and they went back to the major to see if any more could be had, (figuring that they were doing that company kind of a favour by taking away what was just otherwise going to be 'waste', and that "something" was always better than "nothing" when it came to price), they were told the original price would have to more than quadrouple.

The reasoning given was that allowing this "waste" pine to be removed reduced that company's overall annual allowable cut by an equivalent amount. And that its private lands were combined with its managed public lands in computing this cut.

So if they sold something cheap off the private lands, they couldn't cut something else they'd get more for off their public land tenures. A rather inane way of doing any kind of forstry, if you ask me, but that apparently was the situation.

The little mill went onto other things, and so far as I'm aware, it's still operating. Though it didn't cut any more pine.

But my question is, has anything really changed? If there are mountains of utilizable waste accumulating and being burned as logs are being produced for export off private lands, and the same Co. also holds public land tenures, should they be allowed to manage THAT wastefully?

I wouldn't want to imply that it's solely a Company's fault these kinds of things happen. A government that closes its eyes to it is also complicit in this waste. But I do know one thing, it takes a long time to grow a tree, and to see mere little scraps of paper with dollars signs attached to them placed in precedence to the physical reality of what could be, and should be, used, is a sign of a system that's in need of changes.

So why can't they sell Rustads , maybe someone would be interested???

Why can't they sell Rustads? For the same reason no one wants to by GM. The infrastructure might be in good working order, but those buying the product have rapidly declined.

What use is a production line for a product that no one is buying?

Supertech you do sound like a loud mouth and you should get your facts straight the only people that produce the product are the people on the floor mangement is only a drain on the companies profit they don't produce any of value for companies the last place i worked the mangement made sure there were lots of jobs for them and their famlies while the company crumbled under their feet This sounds like what you would do. Try and get a raise now from your boss he would throw you out on your but if it wasn't for unions you would probably working for the same wages they pay at Wendy"s maybe Pat Bell would put a good word for you Have a great day everyone

The attempt by Ottawa and Washington to save GM and Chrysler and becoming their shareholder is a kind of nationalisation of these companies which is very strange for a capitalist society. Even in the socialist and former communist countries the trend has been privatisation of industries.

It is not very strange for Obama to do it since he is a left wing politician, but Harper has no choice despite the fact he is a right winger. We shouldn't expect the BC government to buy out the lumber industry, there is no nationalization of
lumber industry in the south of border, but it can offer similar incentives and benefits offered by Obama. Wasting money into construction of buildings is also not a sound business solution.

The main problem remains with the business
model for producing lumber in Canada, especially when Canadian Dollar is traded more than 90 cents US. Fixing Canadian Dollar below 90 cents US could be a "possible short term" solution considering that [1] oil is traded in US Dollar and [2] several oil exporting countries have tied their currencies to the value of US Dollar [3] more importantly, because US is the main
trading partner of Canada.