Big business is always after wage cuts as it is the one controllable expense.If the mills were doing great I doubt they would say here is 20% more for a job well done.I wish the very best for all involved in this dispute as it is going to be a tough one.

Big business is a necessary evil in this day and age. As I see it, the greatest harm to the working man, and to small business that depends on the fortunes of big business, is the shareholder. The shareholders typically expect a return on their investment, and if not an icrease every quarter, then at least steady profits. Thus, the business must be operated in such a fashion as to please the shareholder (continual profits) the hourly people on the ground do the work, get a fair wage for it too, in most cases, but are at the mercy of the shareholders. It has been shown to us that the major corporations would rather shut a plant down than to lose money, even in the apparent short term, and to hell with the hourly employees. This even though most people would agree that a recovery in the economy is inevitable, and not really that far away. I fear that there is more to this than the corporations are letting on, look for more adjustments and consolidation to come. Short term strategies to appease the shareholders,
= an uncertain future for the mill worker.
Kids, stay in school, there is no future in the forest industry.
metalman.

There is just as much "future" in the forest industry as any other, metalman.

And you can take that to mean that the future will be 'great' or 'bleak', depending on what WE make it.

The "shareholders" of the majority of large businesses are, in reality, the Banks. An enormous amount of 'debt' poses as 'equity', and this has been increased by this recession. In the forest industry and all other industries as well.

When the return on equity (debt) is inadequate from 'operating' the assets it 'owns', those assets will be sold. Piecemeal. It's already happening. "Shareholders" (primarily the Banks) are increasingly living "off their Capital", and decreasingly "off their Income". (Because there is little or no "Income".) And will continue to do so unless some fundamental changes are made to enable the overall level of business profitablity to increase.

This CANNOT be achieved, under the current financial set-up by "cutting wages". Since the wage, for most people, is the only "effective demand" for the very products the businesses have to sell. Or their exchange through export. You can't get a 'price' that recovers all PAST 'costs', plus a profit, out of PRESENT 'incomes'that are continually falling in respect of those 'costs'. All any attempt to do that results in is a growth of unrepayable debt, and the certainty of a 'financial' poverty in the midst of a 'physically' potential plenty.

To get back to the title of Ben's article, has anyone ever asked just what would happen if the Unions said they would be more than willing to take a 20% pay cut, provided ALL PRICES come down 20%, too?

Wage cuts have rarely been the differance to a companies survival. With cuts , the good people will slowly drift away to other workplaces as they see the writing on the wall. This hastens the demise of a company. Better not to take concessions and let the company die a quick death and get on with your lives, easy to say but the results will be the same.

I see a long Strike in the future.
I dont think these workers should accept a roll back.
A long Strike will beneift the Employer and the overall supply of product on the market.
Workers should expect a long vacation and return with a better outlook many months later.
It will be hard for some but taking a paycut wont be advantageous in the long run.
Try to Enjoy your time off.

Wages should be connected to production. IE; Not all people work at the same level, and in industries where there is a strong Union representation, you dont get much bang for your buck. There is no problem paying high wages, if you can get the production in return, however this is not always possible.

Government Employees are a good example of not getting a good return for what you pay. Hours of work, pension, holidays, sick pay, etc; etc; all cost huge dollars but contribute little if anything to production, or getting things done on a cost effective and timely basis.

You need only to look around when you are out and about, and you will see prime examples of high paid employees doing nothing. Empty buses running all over town with high paid drivers. A crew of 5 or six employees, plus vehicles to fill pot holes, etc; etc;

We all need to take a serious look at how we do business in this Country. We could be paid 10% less and in most cases increase our output by a minimum of 10%.

Governments have to take serious reductions in staff, and funding for various entities. The same thing applies to ICBC, WCB, EI, BC Ferries, BC Hydro, BC Transit, Airport Authorities, etc; etc; these entities, especially those on the top end are underworked and overpaid, and are bleeding the taxpayer to death.

Politicians are giving high paid jobs to their buddies, and in fact creating jobs for them, and we the tax payer, consumer are paying for it.

We allow Governments to waste hundreds of millions of dollars on a regular basis and do nothing about it.

To give you some local examples.

We are going to spend $46 Million for a road from Highway 16 to Highway 97, behind the Airport. There is absolutely no need for this road except to service a potential industrial area, that is really not needed.

We could have repaired the Cameron St., Bridge for $750,000.00, but instead spent approx $15 Million on a new bridge, that if we are lucky will supply the same service as the old bridge.

We are going to build a new Police Station for approx $40Million dollars, when a $5 Million renovation would suffice.

We are going to build a Performing Arts Centre for approx $40 Million and there is absolutely no need for it.

We are spending $8Million on River Road to service industry during a time when industrie is actually leaving that area. Part of the rational for the upgrade is because of the CN Intermodal terminal that is supposed to be generating container traffic for Pr Rupert. Problem is there is no increase in traffic from this terminal, and it will probably close down in the next few years. So why spend the money???

We spend $36 Million on an Airport Runway expansion to supposedly attract wide body cargo jets, and passenger jets to land and take off, and create employment, however a year and a half later no one has landed. There is a good chance this expanded runway will never be used.

These are just some of the waste that is taking place around us. There is a hell of a lot more. So that is where your money goes. Eliminate the waste and you can reduce the taxes. Reduce the taxes, and service costs, etc; and you can reduce the wages. Reduce the wages, to employees and management, and increase production, and you will be able to compete and make a profit.

Palopu,
Time will tell.
You can't determine at this point if all these projects are wasted money.
Even if they all resulted in a waste of money in your mind, the spent costs went right back into the economy.
So its not really wasted money after all.

Wasted money is taking a pay cut, thats for sure.

"We spend $36 Million on an Airport Runway expansion to supposedly attract wide body cargo jets, and passenger jets to land and take off, and create employment, however a year and a half later no one has landed."

As late as last year nobody anticipated the worst global recession since the Great Depression and it isn't over yet.

It's global, projects in many other countries have been put on hold, cancelled or left half finished. At least that did not happen here with the runway.

Nobody is enjoying the recession and everybody wishes that things would get going again.

You are flogging a dead horse. The thing has been built and it is ready for the day when will be needed.

It's history.

Diplomat. Lets quit supporting Politicians for bad decisions. Anyone with half a brain and a bologna sandwich knows that the Airport Runway Expansion is a complete and total failure. Dont blame the recession, blame those who dreamed up this nightmare.

Excuses are necessary for failed projects. Successful projects have no need for excuses.

The runway is built and is ready for the day when it will be needed,. (Maybe never) and guess what. All the ribbon cutters, glad handers, photo opters, etc; etc; are running around with drool on their face, trying to convince us that it is a success, and no one takes any responsibility for anything.

Steig Hoeg, one of the originators of the idea is no longer with the Airport, I wonder why?????

The new focus of the Airport is on local passengers and travel, I wonder why??

At least by making the statement that I am flogging a dead horse, you have inadvertantly admitted that the project is dead.

If we continue to wear blinders, and do not take Governments to task for wasting taxpayers money,and making bad decisions, then we have basically become serfs.

We need to reduce taxes to Governments, because this is the only way to stop stupid projects. With less money they will have to look after the necessities.

Very little of the money spent went back into the economy, and even the money that did was tax payers money. If they didnt tax the hell out of us to support these goofy projects, we would still have the money and we could spend in on the economy just as well as anyone else.

Fact of the matter is most of the money has gone to contractors as profits.

"Diplomat. Lets quit supporting Politicians for bad decisions."

At the time when the first research was done for the airport runway extension the global economy was in great shape. A business plan was made. Funding was applied for and government stepped up to the plate.

Mortgage meltdown, bank failures, consumer confidence in the tank, China shutting down factories, Chinese shipping vessels tied up in the ports, nothing to ship, cargo plane traffic down, negative growth internationally....

Did you know that all that was going to happen BEFORE it did?

Of course not.

Hindsight is always perfect 20/20.

Yes, the runway project is completed and the planes have not come yet. I wouldn't call the project dead, because phase #1 is complete and phase #2 (the use by cargo planes) will kick in as soon as the conditions allow it.

The money has been spent and it's no use to keep lamenting about it any more, imho.

Diplomat. When this project was first researched, the intent was to steal a percentage of the business from Anchorage Airport. I discussed this with one of the Managers of the Anchorage at the time and they just laughed. They stated that they were not congested, and if they were they would build another airstrip. They had no problem with Jet Fuel supply, and they had no concern about Prince George taking any on their business.

At the same time I stated that this extension of the Runway in Prince George was no more than a project by the local Airport Authority people to spend the Airport Improvemnt Fees for the next 20 years, and that if the Government had not allowed them to raise the AIF from $5.00 per flight to $15.00 per flight the project would never have been considered.

I further stated at that time that the whole concept was inept at best, and was only supported by the Province, and Federal Government so that they could be seen to be doing something for Prince George. Do you know anyone who has actually seen the business plan for the Airport Expansion???? Seems to me the Federal Government was slow in coming up with the money because of the plan.

If you look at the Annual Report for the Airport Authority you will see that for all intents and purposes they have gone broke. They owe over $18 Million dollars and do not have a hope in hell of paying their debt. You can rest assured that they will be going to the Federal Government with hat in hand asking for enough money to pay off CIBC.

I stated at the time that this Airport Runway Expansion would be used by Coyotes, Ravens, Moose, Deer, and the odd stray dog. So far I have been right.

The only thing that has landed on the Runway since it was built is seagull shit.

Have a nice day.

Like I said, the money has already been spent! It was spent either wisely, with a plan to attract more business and tourism to Prince George, or stupidly, with no business plan and no hope of ever succeeding, by a bunch of incompetent scheming fools, according to you.

One can see a glass half full or half empty.

There is room for more opinions than just one, be it your opinion or mine.

It matters liitle to me. The only thing I can hope to influence are things that are happening now, at this moment! Things that happened in the past or which may (or may not) happen in the distant future are utterly beyond my willingness to fret about at this monemt in my time.

One may remember past mistakes and past successes for obvious reasons: so as to either not repeat them or to emulate them.

By the way, I signed Skakun's petition as soon as I laid eyes on it. Will it matter? Only time will tell. But, I have done my little part. I never sit on a fence. It's too uncomfortable.

Diplomat. We have to learn from past mistakes, and hopefully stop some of these high cost programs.

The Governments of the day keeps spending our money to get re-elected. This in itself would not be to bad if they spent it on programs that created long term jobs, or supplied opportunities for business to flourish. Seems they are incapable of doing this.

Thats why I think we have to somehow get Governments to reduce taxes, so that we the taxpayers get to spend our money on what we choose, rather than a bunch of Government dudes, or non elected representatives of various Organizations making the spending decisions.

As things now stand, Government workers, Politicians, CEO's and Managers of various entities get all the money and spend it willy nilly at our expense. They are not held responsible for any of their decisions.

As an example. Who the hell voted for the people who run the Northern Trust Initiative?? Nobody, but they are the ones who make the decsions as to where this money will be spent. Who voted for the people who run the Airport Authority? No one, but they decide where and how our money will be spent. Who voted for those at IPG who spend $2.5 Million a year of tax dollars? Nobody.

These people are all appointed by various levels of Government, to the board of directors of these entities, and they hire people to run them. We the taxpayer pay for it all, and have no say in the process.

We are creating another level of Government that is not responsible to the people who pay the bills. Hardly democratic.

and if Canada had not spent the money we did on the Avro Arrow project we would have less Federal debt today. All that project did was create engineers who went off to the USA to feed their industry.

And if we had not taken in Newfoundland and Labrador as an April Fool's joke in 1949, we would not have sent all that money from the rest of Canada to support them for so long.

And without a Confederation Bridge to PEI, the island would still exist and we would still have people working on ferries and people would still be enjoying their trips across the Strait....

Then there are all the museums across Canada, the Art galleries not only in metro areas but also in every little hick town, and the Performing Arts Centres ....

Then there are these projects to build Hockey Arenas, football fields and baseball fields in ever community one can think of. The large ones to support athletes at horrendous salaries and yet they produce nothing tangible. Talk about waste.

I mean, we would be just like a south sea island living off our natural riches and tanning in the sun if we had just played things right.

Instead, we created politicians and big business, and now we are all screwed up from one mega project to another and with people that are earning salaries in the millions every year that we put on pedestals while we try to cut back the poor SOB earning $60,000 to support the lifestyle we have been handed by those who want to make money off that SOB, since that is the only person money can come from.

Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

We need Palopu in charge, and everything would be perfect. We would consistently be in the top 10 list of countries in the world.

Wait, we are!!

Palopu said: "Who the hell voted for the people who run the Northern Trust Initiative?? Nobody, but they are the ones who make the decsions as to where this money will be spent"

Actually we did. They are mostly our Mayors and the money is all being spent in the communities of those Mayors.

---------------
"That's why I think we have to somehow get Governments to reduce taxes, so that we the taxpayers get to spend our money on what we choose"

We will have less things to spend our money on. All those things built to make our local lifestyle better will no longer be here and we will go to other parts of the country and the world to access those recreational and educational experiences.
------------------------

"Who voted for the people who run the Airport Authority?" That is a Board appointed by people we voted for. It is one of the duties we impart on those who we elect to operate the country for us, the power to appoint.

We also do not vote for the Board of Governors of Universities, Colleges, etc.

We do vote for the School Board. I defy you to tell me that the Colleges and Universities in this Province or even country are operated poorly in relation to the the School system who have hog tied boards running them.

We also do not vote for the Regional Health Boards.

More importantly, we also do not vote for the representatives of the Boards of large corportions who can make or break a community more than most governments can.

Palopu, suggest an alternate system and tell us why the same decisions would not be made. People are people. They all make mistakes. In a complex world, more and more, whether corporations or governments, those people listen to others who are absolutely not elected by anyone.

Then again, that is the way the world has operated for thousands of years, hasn't it. There were always those who had the emperor's ear and were able to manipulate the sytem of governance in place.

I think I know who to blame. Those people and the people who work for them and provide them with the information they pass on.

"We have met the enemy and he is us".

Palopu you are so far out it can't even begin.

Palopu,

I more or less agree with what you're saying.

I think it is disingenuous to compare museums, bridges, and other public facilities which local people can use with an airport strip which after a year and a half hasn't been used. Meanwhile there is the ongoing cost of maintaining that big strip of road which never gets used.

There is a severe lack of accountability from government to the people. In other countries people would have busted out the pitchforks and bonfires by now.

I agree with gus. The more I read some of these comments about how "bad" we have it here in Canada, the more I honestly think the general population needs to sit back and honestly think about what they are complaining about.

Geez honey, that paved road created for me to drive to the ice cream shack is a little bumpy today. What the hell is the government doing . . .

Man alive, the weeds on those boulevards are getting out of control. Who the hell is running this place . . .

I can't believe I had to wait more than two hours for a publically funded doctor to fix the finger I broke when riding my dirtbike on my day off. Unbelievable . . .

How dare the government only give me $2,000 a month after I got laid off. Shouldn't they just pay me my actual salary until I find a job again . . .

If I have to drive through snow at 6AM one more time on my way to work, I swear I'm going to move to Victoria . . .

If I see the government investing any additional money into programs that are trying to create jobs and economic growth, I think I'm going to puke. Why can't we just coast along like it was back in 1932 . . .

Seriously folks, some of you are completely out of touch with reality and how "bad" you think you have it. Have you ever stopped to wonder why people are literally willing to risk their lives to come to Canada if it is such a wretched place?

While it's quite true we do have a relatively higher standard of living compared to many other countries, there is little doubt that we also ARE grossly 'overtaxed' for the services that government actually delivers to us.

I believe one of the unarguable proofs of this is that while our "standard" of living, for most people, continues to grow, our "cost" of living is continually growing faster. The difference is bridged, so long as it can be bridged, by the exponential growth of overall debt. Growing debt is merely a cumulative deficiency in consumer purchasing power recorded over time.

This is partly because a large and ever growing portion of our tax money is diverted from providing any services at all, and simply goes to pay 'service charges' ("interest") on a continually growing, and presently unrepayable National Debt, and its Provincial equivalents. While we have this recorded National Debt, just as every country elsewhere does, we do not have a similarly recorded "National CREDIT", which, if the money represented by the National Debt has been in anyways wisely spent, should be far, far larger.

Because our present financial system overall is not fully 'self-liquidating', i.e., Bank credit which will become the overall "costs" of the production and provision of goods and services, cannot be fully recovered and liquidated through "prices" paid only from Consumer "incomes" distributed mainly as wages and salaries, and only a PART, (and, thanks mainly to increasing technology, an ever declining PART), of those overall "costs".

A period of economic expansion 'masks' this reality, because there is increased 'capital' goods spending, which becomes effective demand in the retail goods market NOW. This 'capital' goods spending has its own "costs" to be recovered, however, through FUTURE "prices" and/or "taxes".

And when it becomes apparent, as it has recently, that there is a decreasing likelihood that the "costs" of this 'capital spending' are going to be able to be fully recovered, a general contraction of Bank credit ensues. And we enter a recession.

When governments spend to 'stimulate' the economy in such a period, they are, in effect, converting the otherwise unrepayable 'floating' debts of the private sector into the unrepayable 'fixed' debt of the public one.
The government's 'credit', based on its ability to TAX, is superior to that of any private business. Which depends on being profitable to be able to amortize the principal portion of its borrowings. Which in turn depends on there being sufficient money from "incomes" available to consumers to buy its products.

If, through ongoing 'labour displacement'
due primarily to technological progress, overall "incomes" are continually falling in ratio to the overall "costs of production" being impressed into "prices" of goods and services for sale into final consumption, these "costs" cannot be fully recovered from those "incomes" alone, and business profit, from which loans will be repaid will be pinched out of existence due to falling sales. No profit = no repayment = no further loans = no way to keep the wheels of industry turning.


'Stimulus' spending is a poor policy, even if it could be made to work. Which it can't. We trade a very tenuous short-term gain for a far greater long-term pain. One which 'financially' limits the future true 'physical' potential this country is capable of.

No one expects that we're going to completely enable ourselves to do all the things NMG has listed above the way anyone bitching about the way such things are done now would always like. But there are a great number of things that can be done far better than we're doing them, and often it is only the provision of adequate funding that enables this to happen. That funding can not, however, come from TAXES. Taxing only makes the overall shortage of purchasing power worse.

That funding will NEVER be available from TAXES in a way that allows "finance" to accurately and completely "reflect" physical reality the way our current 'financial system' is operated.

To correct it requires the government to actually do what it says it does when it compares itself to a private business. Keep a complete set of books, which shows total national "capital appreciation" (for which we, as the 'shareholders' of 'Canada, Ltd.' are currently never fully credited) vs. total national "capital depreciation" (made up of sums for which we are charged, as a component of "price", every time we buy something.)

The difference between the two can be periodically paid to citizen/consumers as a National Dividend or continuously through what would amount to a variable "negative" Sales Tax, lowering the "prices" of goods and services to Consumers. This allows the financial system to be fully 'self-liquidating', Consumers to be able to fully access the potential productive capacity already available, and businesses to maintain a rate of profit which can more fully amortize Bank loans.

"In other countries people would have busted out the pitchforks and bonfires by now."

And now folks, you know why those countries are not on the top ten list of best countries to live in and occasionally even make it to top spot as Canada tends to do every few years.

from 1991 to 2001 Canada ranked #1
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/09/un-development.html

4th in 2007-08
http://www.investinontario.com/siteselector/coca_801.asp

gus,

Wow, you're saying Canada is number one because we won't fight unjust government spending and overtaxation?

I couldn't make that leap of faith with rocket boots.

I hope I see you out on the runway this winter shovelling snow (for free). If you do a good enough job, a meaningless media document might rank Prince George a little higher next year.