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Part 2 - Conspiracy theories, online government spooks, and Cass Sunstein

By Peter Ewart

Friday, January 22, 2010 03:46 AM

By Peter Ewart

 
In the first article in this series (see Part 1), we noted how various governments are using the blanket term “conspiracy theory” in attempts to denigrate and dismiss opposition. 
 
Indeed, a top government official in the U.S., Cass Sunstein, has gone so far as to write a paper advocating that undercover government agents should “cognitively infiltrate” online chat rooms, social networks and other groups in order to undermine and disrupt what he terms “percolating conspiracy theories” with dirty tricks of various kinds. 
 
He also proposed to enlist so-called “independent experts”, who are supported by the government behind the scenes, to carry out similar activity.
 
So what does that have to do with Canada or British Columbia or the city of Prince George?
 
Well, let’s imagine a “hypothetical” conspiracy theory. What if a political party, when in opposition, promised not to sell a publicly-owned provincial railway, but turned right around and did exactly that when it seized the reins of power? What if there was opposition to this sale which was causing political damage to the government? What if police who were on the trail of a drug conspiracy happened to bug the phones of some government aides to the Minister of Transportation and uncovered what they allege to be bribery and breach of trust in regards to the sale of the railway? 
 
What if this same telephone bugging revealed that the government aides and the Minister had been involved in a scheme to call into rural talk shows and, as Sunstein might advocate, “undermine percolating conspiracy theories” about the sale? What if the police later swept in and raided government offices in the provincial legislature and charged the aides with breach of trust and other offences?
 
This “hypothetical” conspiracy theory certainly sounds like material for a potboiler of a Hollywood movie, full of mystery and intrigue, and exciting twists and turns. 
 
Except it is not hypothetical, and it is not a movie. I am speaking, of course, about the ongoing BC Rail scandal which has gripped the province of British Columbia for the last 6 years and which will be coming to trial probably in the next few months. As transcripts of the police bugging appear to reveal, the editor of Opinion250, Ben Meisner, and his Prince George radio talk show at that time, were one of the targets of the phony call-in scheme by government officials.
 
Indeed, the whole BC Rail affair reeks of a number of conspiracies against the people of the province, the alleged activity of the government aides being only one small sliver. And it is not just a few journalists and so-called “conspiracy theorists” who believe this. For example, CP Rail, one of the leading bidders in the sale of BC Rail, alleged in a letter that there was a “lack of fairness” in the bidding process, and subsequently withdrew its bid. Clearly, there was something very smelly about the process. 
 
There are a number of other puzzling events that have taken place regarding the sale of BC Rail that also belong in a “mystery” or “conspiracy” movie, but might not make it because the Hollywood writers could well judge them too “unlikely” or “bizarre”, and would thus strain the “credulity” of the audience too much. 
 
For example, let’s look at still another “hypothetical” scenario. A reporter writes a number of hard hitting articles for online publications about the controversial sale of the provincial railway, as well as the subsequent raid on provincial government offices and the upcoming breach of trust trial of two government aides. These articles embarrass the government. 
 
One morning, the reporter comes into his office to find that it has been broken into. Although nothing is stolen (despite the fact there were many items of value in the office, including computers, printer, scanner, etc.), the reporter’s files are ransacked. 
 
A cryptic “message” is left. The press kit for a fictional book written about a certain railway scandal and the subsequent police raid of government offices is removed from the reporter’s desk and precisely placed “on top of the broken acoustic tiles from [the] ceiling – where the criminal or criminals entered.”
 
To the reporter (and many others), it looks very much like a message, or better yet, a threat, being sent by powerful forces – a kind of “dirty trick” against another purveyor of “percolating conspiracies”.
 
This “scenario”, of course, was also not hypothetical, but very real. It happened to reporter Bill Tieleman in his Vancouver, BC, office and was reported by him on his blog and other news sites on December 3, 2007.
 
And then perhaps there is the biggest mystery of all. The leader of the Liberal Party opposition promised in the 2001 election that BC Rail would not be sold, and thus the people of the Interior of the province should vote for him. The Liberal Party was subsequently elected. Of course, within two years, the promise was reversed and the railway was auctioned off. Did leading Liberal Party officials know in 2001, or before, that, once in office, they were going to do the exact opposite of what they had promised?
 
According to a “leading legal scholar” like Cass Sunstein, posing a question such as that amounts to propagating a “conspiracy theory”, and thus government should have the right to “undermine” and “disrupt” online chat rooms, talk shows, or any other social venue that discusses such a question.
 
It appears though, from all that has happened in this particular affair, that government officials in BC have been one step ahead of Sunstein.
 
 
Now the BC Rail issue is only one example of where government officials, big business and other powerful forces appear to have conspired against their own citizens. Indeed, the way things go these days, a diligent researcher can practically foray out into his or her backyard, scratch around, and uncover some very real sort of conspiracy, whether it involve the White House in Washington, the Parliament buildings in Ottawa, the BC Legislature, or the boardroom of a multinational corporation.
 
Take the 2009 provincial election in this province. A big question coming out of that event has to do with what the government knew, both during and before the election campaign, about the huge deficit that was looming. 
 
Furthermore, many analysts allege that the government must have been holding secret consultations about imposing the highly unpopular HST tax. It was only after the election was over that the people of the province learned about both the deficit and the new tax.
 
Was there a “conspiracy of silence” among many top government officials to keep these two issues under wraps while the election was proceeding?
 
And this is where things get so disturbing regarding what the “leading legal scholar” and top U.S. government official, Cass Sunstein, is advocating. According to his logic, concerns that people in Canada, the U.S., and other countries, have about issues like privatization of public enterprises, budget deficits, taxes, and so on, should simply be categorized as “conspiracy theories” by government. 
 
Furthermore, that government should, with taxpayers’ money, mobilize overt and covert actions, as well as hire online undercover agents and so-called “independent experts”, etc. to “undermine” and “disrupt” such “theories”.
 
In the next installment in this series, Part 3, we will discuss why Sunstein may have written his paper and why the whole issue of “conspiracy theories” is coming to the fore at this time.
 
Peter Ewart is a columnist, writer and community activist based in Prince George, British Columbia, Canada. He can be reached at: peter.ewart@shaw.ca

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Comments

That is a great piece of journalism Peter. It brings a lot of things into focus that need to be addressed and hopefully will be with the coming trial.

I would argue however that the government officials in BC have not merely been one step ahead of Sunstein, but that Sunstein is merely outing the ideology of a conspiracy that has infiltrated our political parties of all strips and governments as a whole for some time now. What is in his report has been common practice now in Canada and the US for decades. All the political parties are occupied by this problem and none of them dare remove themselves from it. It’s the conundrum we are in politically at this time....

I await part three with anticipation.
Wow! This pretty much says everything that the people of BC have been thinking on their own. You would have to be a fool to think that our Provincial government is not corrupt. I am so proud of Peter Ewart for actually having the guts to post this information. The only way to stop the lieberals is for British Columbians to get out and protest. And I do not mean the embarrassing 200 people who showed up in PG to protest the HST. Shame on you people who felt that driving by honking your horn was supporting the cause! All you did was make it hard to hear the people talking. We must not over look the fact that our own mayor has signed us up to contribute to HAITI by means of property tax increases. Donations to a plight should be voluntary, not forced. Mayors, who cannot even stay within their budgets, think they can rebuild a country. We have the HST and the increase to the carbon tax to also look forward to. When is it going to break? How much more will we take? The utilities have all put in for increases and Hydro not too long ago alluded to the fact that we could see our bills doubled and even triple in some cases. Why! This is simply because the demand from the states is great. You just have to look at the education system to see what we are losing. Another privatisation in the making.

Governments have become people who we pay that are loyal to the corporation’s interests. You have got to give it to large corporations, they have it made, and they do not even have to pay the wage of their puppets. Laws, rules, fees and pure lack of respect for the constitution is all we see from these people we pay to look after our interests. All one has to do is look at the laws and rules that were past for a two week Olympics alone. We are losing our rights bit by bit secretly behind closed doors. Governments are micro managing us in every aspect of our lives. The last frontier is the internet and that soon will be controlled as suggested in this article.
Unfortunately I do not believe that a change of government in B.C. would miraculously cure corruption, nepotism and any of the other underhanded things that have been going on for many decades.

Ditto for the federal government.

Even at the municipal level far too many things are kept hidden from us with the excuse that private information can not be made public.


Unfortunately I do not believe that a change of government in B.C. would miraculously cure corruption, nepotism and any of the other underhanded things that have been going on for many decades.


This is how I see it. The big corporations have sunk their bribe money into the NDP and the LIEBERALS. So if WE the people were to vote on any other party we could have a chance for change. We keep voting the same two parties who have destroyed this province in one way or another for decades. We would get a new party yes with no experience but they would be loyal to us for a while anyway. At the same time all the money that the corporations pumped into the other two parties would be wasted.

It would be the greatest blindside ever that WE could be proud of. :}
IMO, I fully agree! Wouldn't it be nice if a totally new party - one without any ballast and no skeletons in the closet - would come on the scene in B.C.?

The federal Reform Party was like that originally! Then the big old blue party of Mulroney infiltrated it, Harper quit and soon it had been gutted out and taken over with the quitter leading it.

Moe is back and what does that indicate?
To me it means nothing has changed, it's still the Old Democratic Party.
non-partisan Party
Would it be safe to assume that governments of ALL stripes use these tactics? Or, is it only the governments that certain people in the population dislike?

As for needing another party like the old Reform Party, I think I'll pass. I see enough right wing lunacy and crazy talk on the streets of PG as it is, LOL. How about a party that doesn't cater to the extreme Right Wing or the extreme Left Wing? You know, a party that could relate to 80% of the population. Is that too much to ask for? Probably is I suppose, because they could never raise enough money to win an election. This is because that same 80% of the population doesn't have the money to give them. Big business and big labour does, but they won't fund a party that represents the majority of people.
We have to much Government. Federal, Provincial, Regional, Municipal. We have 30 Crown Corporations in BC running anywhere from Legal Aid, to Liquor Distribution, to BC Transmission Corp, to BC Ferries etc; etc; etc;.

It is impossible for Joe Sixpack to keep track of everything that goes on in Government and its Crown Corp. Citizens need the help of the news media to keep the Government honest, however Government influence, and business influence through advertising, grants, etc; etc; has also infiltrated the media.

The news media in a lot of cases has become nothing more than an arm of Government. As an example, the Government issues Press Releases, and the media publishes them verbatim. Various Government Crown Corp releases information to the media and they publish it verbatim. Where is the investigative reporting.? Who asks the hard questions? How long can a newspaper keep up pressure on Government in this Country,?

Some small examples:

In 2006 Brodsky in an interview with the local Citizen stated that he could not and would not remain in Prince George with fan attendence at CN Centre of 3000 or less. He further stated that in order to break even he needed attendence of approx 4000 fans, and at present he was losing 1/2 million per year.

Flash forward to 2010, and we see in an article in the Citizen that the City has signed a 10 year contract with the Cougers, retroactive to 2008, with an opting out clause. The City stands to lose $60,000.00 per year on this contract.

My point is, how did we go from a situation where the franchise was losing 1/2 million per year, to a situation where we can sign a 10 year contract, and lead everyone to beleive that everything is just fine??? Why wouldnt the Citizen reference its story in 2006, and ask Brandi Brodsky, and the City Manager of the CN Centre some hard questions.?? What is being reported, along with photo ops, etc; is not news, it is prefabricated information put out as news to keep the Citizens happy.

Another example is letters to the editor in the local paper are restricted to 400 words, and one letter every three weeks. This is hardly sufficient for any local citizen to make a case for or against any given argument. However we recently had a situation where the CEO of IPG wrote a letter to the Citizen supporting the HST tax increase and telling us why it was good for us. The letter ran in excess of 1000 words, and was the only letter publlished that day. Why would an organization which is an arm of the City of Prince George, and which is funded to the tune of $2.5 Million dollars of taxpayers money be allowed to write and publish a paper supporting a tax hike that the majority of people who pay his salary oppose? In addition one the the big beneficeries of the HST is the newpaper who published the letter.

Sometime ago Opinion 250 tried to get some information from the Airport Authority as to why they parted ways with their manager. They were told that Airport Authoritys were set up along the lines of private enterprise, and they were not required to give out this information.

At a later date the same person who made the above statement made this statement. We (the Airport Authority) at the end of the day are owned by the Federal Government, and therefore are subject to their policies. So once again we have two totally opposing answers to the same basic questions. Again, where are the hard questions.

If we look at some of the news on various subjects over the years we cannot find any instances where people have been asked the hard questions;

(1) Prince Rupert Container terminal will have a big impact on Prince George. This never happened. It had no impact what so ever.

(2) The CN Intermodal Terminal will give a great boost to employment to the City of Prince George. This never happened. In fact one could make the argument that it in fact cost Prince George some jobs.

(3) The Airport Authority would attract wide body cargo jets from around the world and create tech stops, and warehouse and distribution jobs. It appears that this is not going to happen.

(4) Oil and Gas in the Nechako Basin will create jobs and opportunites for the Prince George area. Where are they??? The Nechako Basin is not even discussed anymore.

(5) Prince George Golf Course to relocate to North Nechako and build new course. The Prince George Course is in serious finiancial difficulties, and it now appears that it may not be relocated for a number of years if ever. What went wrong. Part of the problem is that the City controls this property through zoning etc; We are getting no news on this particular issue.

Now there are some things that are in fact happening.

(1) There will be a big project built on the block where the PG Hotel is located. The owners of the PG Hotel will relocate a business somewhere else in the City, with their liquor license.

(2) The City must have a plan for the property where CKPG and the Outrigger is located, otherwise why knock the building down???

(3) The City still has intentions of building a Co-Generation plant. Why are we not trying to find out where is will be located, what it will cost, when they plan to start building etc; etc; etc;. No doubt it will still be a pollution issue so I guess they are not in a hurry to open up dialogue, however it has to be fairly close to the buildings it will service, so I am guessing it will be quite close to Cottonwood park. Maybe on the East End of the CN property across from the Museum/.

(4) Did the City buy the Norgate Auto Body property to build a Performing Arts Centre, that would tie in with their parking building, and the renovations to the Ramada, and the new construction that will take place in that area?? If so, how is it possible that they can move ahead with these projects, before they have the public involved. They would have to have a reverse onus petition before they could borrow the money. Seems to me they are not too concerned about getting the money.

The above gives you some eamples of various problems with the press, and of course the **conspiracies** Most of what this City does is decided behind closed doors and usually only comes to the attention of the public when it is a done deal.

NMG, with all due respect, if you read my earlier post carefully I said that it would be nice to have a new party without any ballast and skeletons in the closet; and I said that the Reform Party was like that when it first came on the scene.

It was brand new. Its ideas were slammed everywhere but most of them were quietly implemented by the party in power.

I did not say that we need another RIGHT WING party or another LEFT WING party!

I would be happy if a new party would arise that has no past ballast or skeletons!

It's up to the new party to make itself palatable to the voters so some may decide to vote for it!

Thanks.
Oh okay I gotcha! I agree BTW :)
Palopu, I think thats the best post I've read yet this year. Very good points about the media... problem is all the media in this country is controlled by only a handful of people and they have their own agenda that is not local or civic in nature. I think we really need to get media ownership and control local for the reasons you have media (public interest), otherwise we are given bits of information that make no sense in the larger context... and it has become a vehicle to control the debate rather than inform the debate.
Diplomat, you're right about a new party that represents the middle class... a free enterrpise block not formed by those with a special interest, but rather by people that work for a living, own small businesses, and people that can respect our constitution in their agenda to grow our democracy enabling the activity of a free and prosperous society. I've got a lot of ideas I would contribute for that kind of enterprise (I'd hate to call it a party though).
"IMO, I fully agree! Wouldn't it be nice if a totally new party - one without any ballast and no skeletons in the closet - would come on the scene in B.C.?"

And it would take how long for them to become the "same old, same old"?

It is the way of the political world. It will take at least legislation to change it. And then who is going to enforce it?
Palopu asks: "Where is the investigative reporting.?" In big town newspapers on both the left and the right, but not in the same paper typically. Small town newspapers cannot afford it. Just look at the Citizen's reporting and editorials of late.

How many months till they make the next change to try not to lose any more readers?
Palopu wrote: "What is being reported, along with photo ops, etc; is not news, it is prefabricated information put out as news to keep the Citizens happy."

It is NEW prefabricated stories. All such stories are the thinking of the day or the spin of the day. What exactly do you expect people to say? I am surprised you have not understood that yet at this stage in your life.

The ideal you are striving for only happens in Utopia. In the real world, one has to learn to read between the lines.
Oh, and what is the in between the lines the way I read it? Brodsky has not been able to find a better offer. Brodsky loves his work and/or is making enough money for him to stay in the business.

The "best" in between the lines interpretation is that he has cut his operations to the bones and the break even of several years ago is now different lower.

Let's hear some other in-between the lines interpretations.

As far as trhe media goes, I am strating to discover tht other than Hoekstra's reporting once a paper and a story is published it is lost in the minds of the reporters. At the moment, they have no time or inclination to do any research even if it is in house information. Things are tough at the Citizen is the story that is going around.
"Another example is letters to the editor in the local paper are restricted to 400 words, and one letter every three weeks. This is hardly sufficient for any local citizen to make a case for or against any given argument"

You can post as many times as you want on their on line site. Also can have a pen name.
Palopu posted:
"At a later date the same person who made the above statement made this statement. We (the Airport Authority) at the end of the day are owned by the Federal Government, and therefore are subject to their policies. So once again we have two totally opposing answers to the same basic questions. Again, where are the hard questions"

Do you know what the Federal Policies are? Generally speaking, personnel matters are priviledged information. Compensation at higher levels now have to be disclosed, but not the reason for a "parting".
Palopu wrote:
(1) Prince Rupert Container terminal will have a big impact on Prince George. This never happened. It had no impact what so ever.

Gus writes: I did not realize there was a tow year time line for the consequences to show up! Did you read that somehwere? You getting impatient?
--------------------------
Palopu wrote:
(2) The CN Intermodal Terminal will give a great boost to employment to the City of Prince George. This never happened. In fact one could make the argument that it in fact cost Prince George some jobs.

Gus writes: So make the argument! The space is free for your use!
As far as the rest goes, the same response I posted for (1) applies to this project as well.
-----------------------------

Palopu wrote:
(3) The Airport Authority would attract wide body cargo jets from around the world and create tech stops, and warehouse and distribution jobs. It appears that this is not going to happen.

Gus wrote: See the time frame response above. It applies to this project as well.

I was thinking of saying that these are not Tim Horton projects or StarBucks projects. But even they are not guaranteed. We has a Starbucks closing here about a year ago.
-------------------------
Palopu wrote:
(4) Oil and Gas in the Nechako Basin will create jobs and opportunites for the Prince George area. Where are they??? The Nechako Basin is not even discussed anymore.

The time will come. Want to make it happen more quickly? Put some hard controls on the Oil Sands projects that will make it too expensive to produce the oli from there till they get a more effective system going, and the Nechako Basin will start to become more interesting.

From an energy conservation point of view that would make much more sense. But those who expect private enterprise to make sense are wishful thinkers. As long as people are willing to pay the big bucks, no one is going to alter privagte corporations' normal path of least resistance approach to national energy planning.
-----------------------------

Palopu wrote:
(5) Prince George Golf Course to relocate to North Nechako and build new course. The Prince George Course is in serious finiancial difficulties, and it now appears that it may not be relocated for a number of years if ever. What went wrong.

Gus writes: Things change. The land is not of interest to anyone at this time. The City is slow to move on making a neighbourhood plan. I am sure that if the City were more proactive, they could work with a potential purchaser on a performance specification for the development rather than a prescriptive specificastion which they appear to be attempting to do. But, I will agree with anyone that the City is not very imaginative in its processes.
----------------------

Palopu wrote: "Part of the problem is that the City controls this property through zoning etc; We are getting no news on this particular issue."

Gus writes: first you say that press releases are not news and that old responses are not news. There is no NEWS to report. So let us not report something that is OLDS.
Palopu also wrote:
Now there are some things that are in fact happening.

(1) There will be a big project built on the block where the PG Hotel is located. The owners of the PG Hotel will relocate a business somewhere else in the City, with their liquor license.

Gus writes: I seem to recall something about "the best laid plans of mice and men ..... often go awry".

The above is rumour, but you believe in rumour ... :-)
-----------------------------

Palopu wrote:
(2) The City must have a plan for the property where CKPG and the Outrigger is located, otherwise why knock the building down???

I am sure they are not going to move the RCMP building there. That is just a runour .... I think.

I think the Bible store was going to assemble the land for a Chapters, the city got wind of it, bought it in order to flip it. You notice the Bible store is still there. :-)
------------------------------

Palopu wrote:
(3) The City still has intentions of building a Co-Generation plant. Why are we not trying to find out where is will be located, what it will cost, when they plan to start building etc; etc; etc;. No doubt it will still be a pollution issue so I guess they are not in a hurry to open up dialogue, however it has to be fairly close to the buildings it will service, so I am guessing it will be quite close to Cottonwood park. Maybe on the East End of the CN property across from the Museum/.

Gus writes: Ah yes, right in the middle of the new flood plain height. So now you know why they hired a $100,000/yr communications fellow. They figured the more they pay him, the better the stories he can tell.
-------------------------

Palopu wrote:
(4) Did the City buy the Norgate Auto Body property to build a Performing Arts Centre, that would tie in with their parking building, and the renovations to the Ramada, and the new construction that will take place in that area?? If so, how is it possible that they can move ahead with these projects, before they have the public involved. They would have to have a reverse onus petition before they could borrow the money. Seems to me they are not too concerned about getting the money.

Gus writes: The City has adopted the SGOG plan. Have a look at it and you will see what is planned for the Norgate Property. There will be a few more land purchases to the west of there over the years as opportunities come knocking to assemble the land for the first centre town park of any magnitude, along withe the proposed water/ice feature.

Land assembly is typically done "behind closed doors" in all cities. It was done for the Plaza 400 block when that took place, it was done for the police station property, it was done for the Courthouse and it will continue to be done.

The intention is that little guys, like the bible store, will sell early and low, and only those people with an eye on the pulse of the community have any inkling of what is happening and who the real end user will be.

Its a game of poker.
"Another example is letters to the editor in the local paper are restricted to 400 words, and one letter every three weeks. This is hardly sufficient for any local citizen to make a case for or against any given argument"

Thank goodness for this. Anyone who wants to write to the editor more than this, is usually someone you don't want to read.
Gus: "And it would take how long for them to become the "same old, same old"?"

One doesn't know if nobody dares to give it a try!

I for one know we deserve a lot better than the standard choices we have at present.

It's pathetic - especially the voter apathy!

Gus & Pal, I find your posts to be especially informative and stimulating.




(1) Last nights attendence at CN Centre was 1925 fans. At the new rate for the City at 5% the Citys take would be $1200.00. If this type of attendence continues, it become pretty obviouse that we are actually paying the Cougers to play here.

(2) Its a pretty sad excuse to suggest that if a story is lost in the mind of the reporter, that is justification for erroneous reporting.

(3) I agree that 400 words shuld be sufficient to anyone writing a letter to the editor, however this restriction should also apply to vested interest groups such as IPG, and others. I once had a rebuttal to my letter to the editor from the City Manager, printed in the Editorial Column one day prior to the civic election, so that there was absolutely no way to respond.

(4) I reiterate. There will be a huge project build on the Block where the PG Hotel was located. Also the old owners will relocate their liquor licenses. Dont forget the **Old Boys Club**

(5) Approx 900 Containers per week (3-150 car trains double stacked) pass through Prince George from Pr Rupert going to Chicago, Memphis, Toronto, Montreal. Roughly 50,000 Containers a year. None have as yet stopped in Prince George. This gives me a clue.

(6) Prince George is located midway between Pr Rupert and Vancouver BC. Why would one think that it is more beneficial to ship to Pr Rupert than Vancouver. In fact there have been a large number of Containers loaded in Pr George that were shipped to Vancouver, and a like amount loaded to Pr Rupert. When you go to container loading you lose the trucking to Vancouver, and as a result over time you would lose, truck sales, truck repairs, tire sales, truck driving jobs, fuel sales, restaurant sales, hotel sales, etc; None of these sales are associated with loading containers on rail cars, and therefore you would have a net loss of jobs. In addition the money generated by the railways for container business, ultimately ends in the US Shareholders pockets. Trucking money stays in Pr George.

The Airport Authority on Friday in a psuedo newspaper article stated that they were looking for someone to sit on their board of directors with experience in the Airline logistics, and transportation business. They further stated that there was no one in the City of Prince George that had this experience, and that they hoped to have someone come from outside Pr George to attend their board meetings. Problem is they only pay a director $3500.00 a year, plus $250.00 per meeting and they were not hopeful of getting anyone. In addition they were not willing to hire anyone. (Is this because they are broke). In any event they went on to say that they had to look at the big picture and get things going to make this Airport a success story, for the City. This indicates to me that they had no plan in place at all when they built the extension, and that they are still flying by the seat of their pants (pun intended) hoping somehow to get some business for this white elephant.

The orginal planned location for the Co-Generation plant was on the East end of 3 Avenue. Guess what?? Right in the middle of the flood plane. So locating it across the tracks obviously is not a concern for the City.

The City continues to change their plans to fit what they want to do., having a plan on a piece of paper means diddly squat for them. Are you suggesting that the new construction that will take place on George St., (PGHotel property) is visible on any City plan. Was the Metropolis plan that was to be built on Quebec St., on the plan. How about the Casino across from Days Inn. Was this on the plan, and then when they moved was is dropped??? Is the medical centre now on the Plan? How about the Condo's that were supposed to be built. Are they still on the plan, or have they gone up in smoke???

There is some news in regards to the Golf Course, if they ever move. Part of the story is that the Curling Rink will remain where it is for the forseeable future, and then be moved to the Kin one and two area. The new par 3 18 hole course will replace the Pine Valley par 3, and that property will be sold for commercial development. The tennis club, will be relocated to the North End and the Driving range will be sold, the Playhouse theatre will be torn down, and the roller building will probably disapear. The City will run the PGGCC building, and par 3, the restaurant etc; probably through contractors.

Have a nice day.
Palopu wrote: "The City continues to change their plans to fit what they want to do., having a plan on a piece of paper means diddly squat for them"

Gus writes:

A couple of thoughts in that comment.

1. the area of the Smart Growth Plan is the downtown which is all zoned C-1, where anything goes. In other words, come to us and we will look at what you want to do, and we will discuss on how we can build that for the benefit of all. Thus, changing "plans" is expected in that part of the city and the City looking out for the "greater good". Whether they are doing a good job of it, well that can be discussed. It is hard to determine in a no growth decade or two. The box stores are not about to build downtown, nor would it be advantageous for them to be built downtown, in my opinion.

2. The SGOG exercise is the best thing that has happened to City Planning for some time. Most cities that have planning departments have such plans to refer to. Do they ever come about as drawn? Of course not!! That is the nature of planning. It is a moving, living process. Some people have problems putting things down on paper because they cannot make up their minds what would be best. Urban planning shifts with new information, as it should. However, concepts should not change that quickly.

The SGOG has some good concepts

1. A major park downtown

2. That green space plus water/ice as a major feature of that park connecting the “cultural/recreation centre” of the Library, Art Gallery, Civic Centre and Swimming pool to the City Hall precinct is an idea long time waiting. Any well designed, civilized city has something of that nature.

3. High density residential in proximity to the urban park.

4. High density residential in the Winnipeg-Vancouver corridor. Perfect place to push for housing CLOSE to the Central Business District but not in it.

Will that concept change? Hopefully not.

Will some of the suggested detail change. Of course!!!!

The PG Hotel is shown intact on the “detailed” plan. Remember, they had to draw SOMETHING!!! However, the western portion of that block had a building half the size of the block on it. There is the observation in the concept. The block is underutilized and a good location to build a higher density use.

Remember the other concept of SGOG is the retention of buildings in the short to medium term that still have potential to activate the street. The consultants were from the lower mainland where it is okay to keep such buildings and re-use them for other uses. They did not realize, nor did they encourage, a slash an burn approach. That is poor planning and poor utilization of an investment. A downtown needs a mix of rental values in order to thrive. It will die with all rental rates being at a mall level.

Much of Robson Street, Commercial Drive, South Granville, Broadway and other shopping street precincts in Vancouver grew up that way and some remain partially tht way.

Walk along the back lanes of some of those areas and you will notice that the frontage of the buildings are often just renovated facades, something that has not caught on very much in PG.
BTW, Palopu.....

If what I think might be built on the PG Hotel block will be built, I am sure it will be another activity or activities that you will be constantly posting about having no chance to succeed.
What might be built on the PG hotel block, will have some tenants with an unlimited supply of Government money, and therefore will be a **successful failure**

As long as we remember the old adage **BS baffles brains** we should be OK. Its only when we begin to beleive the BS that is spewed by these dudes, that we get into trouble.