Good thing for Dan that there is a turn around seemingly happening in forestry, there should be some prospects for a new job for him, piling lumber. Then again, is he qualified?

he wasnt qualified for mayor...

If Hizzoner got a job in the private sector he wouldn't have to bring a lunch...... Because he wouldn't be there long enough to eat it.

A mayor who is REALLY in charge makes confident realistic decisions based on what the citizens of this town really need and on what is affordable.

A mayor must take control of city hall from day one and make sure that everyone understands that he/she is now the new BOSS.

It does not appear that this has happened in P.G. yet.

It's called leadership.

Mayor Dan Rogers has fallen into the bureaucratic trap of letting the bureacrats make the decisions. Even after there is a committee meeting to make a decision they still go with the bureaucrats because it's easier. There are only one, maybe two councillors who have a mind of their own. Why do you think no campaign promises ever get done. The bureacrats know full well the "new" councillors rely heavily on their advice and most of the older ones do it because it is easier and they do not want to upset the working atmosphere. News Flash: The atmosphere is already tainted. My advice to the councillors is to use common sense and stand up for what you believe believe in. Make some tough financial decisions and start laying off "incompetence" because our Mayor will not. Remember he is only one vote.

Remember "Smart Growth on the Ground". Remember that Council endorsed the plan in principle.

Here is the plan, in principle, as a reminder ....

http://www.sgog.bc.ca/uplo/PG_plan.jpg

Council, by adopting the plan in principle, gave administration the markching orders, in principle.

Look at what is proposed for all sides of City Hall, especially to the north of it. The closing of Patricia to the south of the City Hall, removal of the coliseum and fire hall and removal of 3 city blocks of land, including the Day's Inn, to be turned into a park complete with "water feature".

All the City is doing is purchasing land when the opportunity arises to acccommodate the Council's adopted plan.

I know, few remember such trivial decisions. Others never realized the impact such a decision would have.

The new police station is visible on the plan. My best guess is that the performing arts centre is the new building to the west of City Hall. That is about the size such a building would have to be. Makes lots of sense there, close to the Civic Centre where it could share convention space.

Just think, less pavement, less potholes to fix ..... :-)

Here was my main concern after the last election:

Dan Rogers and Don Zurowski were by far the 2 best councilors we had at the time.

Both ran for mayor, so we lose the 2 best guys at their jobs.

We end up with a mayor with no business skills nor any leadership. We lose Zurowski off council, leaving a huge hole in experinece and leadership.

When you add that up, its a recipe for disaster, an underqualified Mayor, the 2 best councilors gone.

We are now reaping the rewards.

I knock Dan allot, but I can say I was very impressed with his work as a councilor, he seemed prepared, interested and willing to work. He did a damn fine job.

Its a great example of a great salesman for a company getting promoted then being a horrible manager, 2 different skill sets.

Otherwise know as the Peter Principle, as promoted in the 1969 book by the same name.

"In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence"

The corollary to that is "work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence".

Of course, since it is a 1969 principle, you will note by the language used that it does not apply to females .... :-)

Maybe Dan is like a Hemlock tree. He has not "released" yet. But once he reaches that stage in his growth cycle, watch out!

Dan is like a Hellock tree alright, thick as a block of wood.

The Mayor and Councillors have to get together and make some decisions.

Its time for them to fire the City Manager, and some of the other Managers, including some they just hired.

Most of the top staff at the City is left over from the Kinsley era, and its time for them to move on. It may cost some money in terms of severence, however it will save us huge dollars by getting rid of these **Diamond Jim Brady** Managers.

With the new Managers, and a cohesive Council the Mayor should be able to implement some cost saving measures, not the least of which should be the scrapping of the PAC, and the Community Energy Plan. They should also give serious consideration to getting rid of IPG.

We need a hard look at our debt, and have to get out of the mindset of **how much more are we allowed to borrow** to **lets get this debt paid down and reduce taxes**

Its a big jump for the Mayor and Council, however if they are not willing to do this, then why in hell are they at City Hall.

The days of the various levels of Governments spending money like drunken sailors is fast coming to an end. Do Rodgers and the PG Councillors want to be leaders and take the initiative, or do they want to be followers, and get kicked out the next election.

If you dont beleive that voters are sick and tired of tax hungry politicians, just watch what happens with the HST Petition. This is only a start. Any level of Government who thinks that he can continue to tax and spend, is in for a big surprise.

We just had an increase in Municipal taxes, and garbage, we are going to get another increase in garbage. We are having our Hydro increased, along with our gas, and of course we have the carbon tax, along with the proposed HST, and of course increase in taxes for the use of parks etc; I am sure there are more increases that I missed.

This has got to stop. It borders on insanity. The only people who are not hurt by these huge increases are Politicians, and Government workers, who are all well paid, with benifits, and a means to increase their salaries. They of course see the world through rose coloured glasses.

The City has seven hundred employees, more than enough to accomplish way more than what is being done now, imho.

Perhaps it would be an excellent idea to do a total re-assessment of the City as was just done in Penticton.

It reveals duplications of work, outdated practices, better ways of planning and time wasting habits.

Governments think that they should have immunity, but in private industry it is done on an ongoing basis to prevent going into bankruptcy. Often most of the top managers are shown the door. It's the only way to start with different attitudes.

Bang for the buck, or: The buck stops here.

It goes without saying; How can you tell a politian is lying...... when they open their mouth.

Palopu, well said. You and I don't often agree, but you are right on this one. All levels of Government spending are out of control. I have no more to say, Palopu, you said everything I was thinking.

Taxi

P.S. I'm sorry, one more little thing. We need to take back control of our Governments, and control of our money!

Palopou

Too much taxes … too much taxes … your continual lament …..

Then you go on to identify projects that can be cut in order to reduce taxes.

The fallacy in your suggestions is that you do not substantiate that we are actually being taxed too highly for what we get.

Two ways, at least, how to find out whether we are being taxed too high

1. how much are other municipalities being taxed. This presumes that not all cities are run ineffectively. It is, however, an indicator. Otherwise go to #2

2. do we get value for the taxes we pay? In other words, how effective and efficient is our city government and their administration. To me, that is the objective question, but also most difficult ot answer.

So, to do the easy one first.

When it comes to residential taxes, it seems we are amongst the lowest in BC when one combines the property plus utility taxes. According to the link below, out of 27 B.C. communities surveyed, Prince George had the fourth-lowest average property taxes AND utility costs in 2009.

This report from a council meeting http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_north/pgfreepress/news/83938332.html

If you or anyone else wishes to dispute that, please provide the counter argument.

Just for a comparison with another city in Canada about the same size as PG with house values in the same range as ours, Kingston, Ontario. Of course, I have also chosen that city because, unlike many other municipalities, their reporting of tax amounts to their citizens and the rest of the world is right out there for all to see and in an easy to understand format. We should be so lucky in PG!!

http://www.cityofkingston.ca/residents/budget/reference.asp

For an average house assessment of $221,830 the tax bill is anywhere between $3,443 to 3,130. According to the figures given out at a PG Council meeting in February An average home in Prince George, valued at $209,060, paid $2,867 in taxes AND utilities. So, we are in the same ball park or less.

I know one thing, when it comes to paying taxes, this city is one of the most friendly business cities in BC. For every tax dollar the residents pay on a $100,000 assessment, businesses pay 2.28 times as much.

Of 159 BC municipalities examined by the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, Prince George is the 122nd lowest. Only Kelowna, of the larger cities, ranks better from the CFIB’s point of view at 131. They tax their businesses at 2.18 times the residential rate.

Ft. St. John is mid way in the pack and taxes businesses 2.97 times the residential rate. Dawson Creek? 4.36 times. Vancouver? 5.08 times.

Here is a partial list:
community-------Gap factor-----rank
North Saanich-----7.27-----------1
Revelstoke--------6.6------------2
Vancouver---------5.08-----------7
Dawson Creek------4.36----------10
Victoria----------3.67----------26
Smithers----------3.66----------30
Kamloops----------3.34----------50
Vernon------------3.09----------67
Nanaimo-----------2.98----------74
Fort St. John-----2.97----------75
Abbotsford--------2.91----------78
Quesnel-----------2.69----------89
Prince George-----2.28---------122
Kelowna-----------2.18---------131
Osoyoos-----------1.59---------153
Bowen Island------1------------157

That leads me to think that the residents here carry too high a burden. Of course, the CFIB would not agree with that.

Why is this not generally known? We not only allow industry to pollute like crazy, but on top of that we say to them … hey, you give us jobs, throw some particulates and chemicals into the air, and while you are at it, why don’t we also pay some more taxes so that you can pay less.

I know, the Pattisons of this world need our help!!!

So, how to answer question #2? That is the one I want this City to tackle. If Penticton has done so in an effective way, then it is high time we do the same.

I know you have never tackled what would reasonable taxes look like to keep a City going so that it does not look and feel like living in a S hole … In fact, I wonder if you really care about the look and the feel of the city you live in, as long as it is the cheapest in the province.

Sure hope that future connector to Highway 16 at the top of Ospika gets finished in my lifetime. Give the guys up on the Hilton on the Hill hoes and baskets to get things started.

Yes, that connection is needed.

So is the completion of Foothills to Massey and then on to Ferry. It ends in the middle of no place right now.

Taxes levied in Canada are not sufficient to pay for the services we demand as well as overcome deficits and pay down debt. This is a given.
I have no problem with taxes. I think I don't pay my fair share and I make that up by supporting local and national charities that I think are picking up the slack left by governments cutting out needed services.
We should be directing taxes at those individuals and corporations who make good incomes.
Call me a socialist, but I wish to live in a society where no child goes hungry and no person is homeless against his or her will. This is possible in our richly endowed nation. It would make for a more pleasant environment for all.
I spent years in a third world country where people without connections or jobs literally starved in the streets.
Certain parties today care not what happens on George Street as long as it doesn't affect College Heights.
I think that Scandanavian countries are a better model for Canada that is Indonesia.

One would get a headache trying to sort out how much taxes should be paid, and trying to compare them to other Cities. Gus tries to make the connection but he does it using the time worn **comparison** **Average house cost** etc etc; This is all smoke and mirrors.

In order to see whether or not you are paying to much in taxes you should first have a look a your actual costs for basic services. ie; Water, Sewer, Garbage, Police and Fire Protection,Snow Removal etc;

That is the standard for every City in Canada. You would then have to compare how much other Citys pay for these services compared to Prince George. You should also compare the number of City Staff, etc.

The system that we use to collect taxes based on the value of your house, the mill rate etc is only valid if the money collected is spent in a prudent way. What we have in Prince George is a tax collection system based on budget requirements, and the budget requirements are (usually) based on the projected amount of tax that will be collected.

The mere fact that taxes rarely if ever are reduced even though the amount collected has increased substaintally over the years, and that a lot of infrastructure has been completed. The City finds new ways of spending the tax money. The alternative would be to reduce taxes to its citizens. Fat chance.

Rather than reduce taxes they increase staff, set up new entities like (IPG)with a $2.5 Million annual budget. Hire consultants, buy new facilities (new yard on Ospika) buy up property for future projects, build new police stations, and generally spend every cent they can get their hands on. And of course borrow as much money as possible.

To make a fair comparison with Kingston you can forget the **average cost of a home** and just look at.

A. The population of the City and the number of people paying taxes.

B. The amount of comercial and industrial business in the area, and the amount of taxes they pay.

C. The amount of recreational facilities in the City and the cost of running them.

D The amount of debt for the City and the cost to service this debt.

E. The amount of money incoming from gas tax, gambling, rcmp tickets, terasen gas lease in lease out etc;

F. The amount of money paid out to various entities over and above the revenues they generate Ie; Swimming pools, CN Centre, Civic Centre, Art Centre, Coliseum, Library, etc;

A look at the total amount (Actual dollars collected by taxes and other income) and compare that to the total income of say Kingston Ont.

I suspect that we collect a hell of a lot more money, and we spend a hell of a lot more money than most Cities on Gus's list.

We are being taxed on our ability (perceived by inexperienced Politicians, and money hungry civil servants) to pay, rather than on actual needs for the City.

There is absolutely no end in site to increased taxes until we clean out those people who are presently taxing us to hell, and put in people who have OUR interests at heart, rather than theirs.

A fair comparison would be to Sarnia Ont. with a population of 71,419. Kingston has approx 50,000 more people than Prince George, plus an additional 35000 in the immediate area.

Sarnia as an example has 111 Policemen while Prince George with a population of 70,491 has 128.

Im not about to do all the work to find out how far out of whack we are compared to Sarnia, but my gut feeling tells me we take in a lot more money, borrow a lot more money, and spend a lot more money.