The only thing that could beat us now is 'complacency'.

The feeling that there will be more than enough signatures without any need for us to sign.

On this issue, like no other, if you are opposed to the HST, please make the effort to sign. EVERY signature is important.

Not in merely achieving the 10% threshold, or even 15% to allow for a margin of error, but to CLEARLY impress upon the Government that we want this Tax rescinded.

This is NOT about replacing one "Party", maybe the one you voted for in the last election, with another. Or one "leader" with another. It IS about something much more fundamental than that. It's about whether the people we send to the Legislature to form a Government will listen to US when we clearly tell them what we do NOT want. I believe they will. That they would not be so stupid as to do otherwise. Their 'job', as the US President Frankin Delano Roosevelt once remarked about his job, "..is to yield to pressure".

OUR 'job' is to apply it. Don't be complacent, you won't get another chance.

Amen socredible..amen.

I will sign even if I have to go looking for them.

I will sign, even if it doesn't work. At least I will feel like I have done something more than just whinning and complaining.
So I too will look for a place to sign.

This was posted in another area: Pasted for those of you who need the information.


To Supertech and all others: There will be a place to sign the petition at 1705 3rd Ave. DOWNSTAIRS. The offce is going to be open Tuesday to Saturday at least thats the agenda right now. At this time no other locations are planned but that could change. For now that is where you can go to sign. Don't forget that if you have signed any other petitions around in the last few weeks pertaining to HST those have no bearing on the outcome of this campaign. The real petition is a very official looking form and you can only sign one time. They are going to scrutinize every single signature and toss any one not meeting the strict guidelines. So thats all for now. I really dont know much more we sure aint getting very much help from mainsteam media. I will continue to post what I can here. I am a volunteer canvasser so I can find out whats happening and will post it here.

Socredible has it right. This issue is much biggar than Party Politics. Its about elected officials ignoring the wished of the voters. Arbritarily bringing in legislation that people have little or no input into.

The ability to bring in the HST has been on the books since at least 1991 and BC was never in favour of it. All of a sudden **BOOM** we have it shoved in our faces and are told it will be effective July 1st.

The Governments of the day have to back off on taxes and spending and take a deep breath. We are being treated like a cash cow, and it has to stop.

This Government will have to deal with this petition, how they deal with it will be interesting to watch. On this one they will have no place to run and hide. Their spin doctors will not be able to help them and they will be caught between a rock and a hard place. Which now that I think about it, is not a bad place for a Politician to be.

In order to sign the petiion you must be a registered voter. Their is a door to door campaign under way, however I would suggest, that those who have the time and want to sign to go to the Professional Building at 1705 3rd Ave. **Downstairs**

They will be open to accept signatures Tuesday through Friday Noon to 6Pm and Saturdays 10am to 5pm. so go for it.

Ahhh don't worry about it, someone else will sign it.

Yeah for HST.

He Spoke, even if you support the HST... do you support democracy? What about the process of this after election trickery tickled you so much that you can support the evaporation of your democratic rights. Is it purely political for you, or do you simply not support the democratic process? Are you saying that you oppose democracy and the right for citizens to have an input on how we are taxed?

I would suggest everyone that supports the right for citizens to have a voice in government sign this petition. At the heart of it that is what this is all about.

Even if you support the HST I urge you to sign the petition, so as to send a message to government that we still live in a democracy. Once the referendum comes around you could then support the HST with your vote if you so choose to support this new tax, but until then you are either for democracy and the democratic process, or you are with the globalist financiers that are behind these consolidations of the taxation authority through back room deals out of the light of the citizens that vote in this country.

A vote based on a lack of real information as to what you were voting on is not democracy and is not an informed vote that leads to governments with integrity.

"even if you support the HST... do you support democracy?"

They're two separate issues, mixing them together only muddies the waters.

Historically, the government has never put every decision and policy it comes up with to a referendum, nor will it ever. If it did that, the government would grind to a halt.

As I said in the other thread, I support the petition and the petitioners as part of the democratic process, although I don't support their cause.

Eagleone

So, the government finally makes some tax changes which help me an my small business, one which makes allot of sense and will be a help, yet I should support your cause because you say so?


I quote:

"but until then you are either for democracy and the democratic process, or you are with the globalist financiers that are behind these consolidations of the taxation authority"

That I have a real problem with, how much more fear mongering you guys going to do, how much more miss information you going to pass? How much more bullying you going to do as you go door to door? You guys are sure doing enough on this site, there is no way I can trust you to keep it civil on the streets, you have already shown that you have gone way beyond a simple petition and now believe its your time to change the world.

YOU NEED TO ACCEPT ONE FACT, there are people out there who support this change in taxation. Whether you do or not is your right, but dont start your crap about saving the world. IT MAKES SENSE FOR SMALL BUSINESS. I support the changes.

If the HST gets defeated, do you think it will stop there?

The HST is supposed to bring in more money than just regular PST, so if it's defeated it means the Province will be out tax dollars. Since the Govt isn't in a surplus position, I bet they will need us to pay one way or another.

So do we fight it? I think I will be doing better things with my time.

While we're at it, the Carbon Tax should be added to the petition.

eagle one, absolutely, democracy is the backbone of our society. I believe that we all have a voice.

The gray area is, should a person who did not vote in the last election should not have his/her name count on the petition. They have the right to put their name on the petition, but it should not be in the count. That is the real way to get the people out there on election day.

Eagle one, Just as much as person who does not supports the HST, has a right to sign the petition, I who support this taxation have the right to voice my opinion. Unlike your undermining statement against me, I respect you opinion.... even if it is wrong.

My support is not because I support Gordon, its because it is a fair way to raise taxes to provide services. We live in a society which has a lot of grey hairs that need a lot of medical attention. Where is the money going to come from.

Is it me, or is Carole James, the official opposition have taken a stand on this, or is she just going to jump on the band wagon when it looks like it is going to successful.

It does not matter if it is the Liberals, NDP or the Social Credit. They need to get more money into their coffers to support our living standards and expectations.

The more they tax us, the closer they will be to a social revolution. Thus delay tactics like protesting the HST, is just prolonging the process, and the longer we wait before we say lets rebuild our country.

Mr. PG, quoting Eagleone:- ""even if you support the HST... do you support democracy?"

They're two separate issues, mixing them together only muddies the waters.
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I don't think so, Mr. PG. As I understand it, if the Petition is successful, the Government has the choice of either actually having a vote on adopting the HST in the Legislature, or on putting the issue to the people in a Referendum.

The BC Legislature has NOT had a vote on the HST. Nor does Mr. Campbell intend to. So "our" representatives there have NOT had a chance to "represent" US democratically on this issue at all.

At present, all they will vote on is only the rescinding of the current BC Sales Tax.

And, as Colin Hanson said, if they vote "against" that, we'd have BOTH the HST and the BC Sales Tax come July 1st. This is political "blackmail", not 'democracy'. And we should be incensed that this is happening in a land that has our Parliamentary traditions.

Now if there is a far greater percentage of signatures collected and verified than the 10% needed, say, perhaps over 50%, which, from early indications, there may well be, I find it quite hard to believe that "our" representatives would be bold enough to ignore that.

If this should prove to be the case, and they do ignore what the people are clearly telling them, and use the Premier's "..we need the money so badly we have to have the HST for the public's own good" line on us, then perhaps the need for 81 "representatives", very well paid and highly benefitted at our expense, is entirely superfluous.

stompin tom, this tax may help your small business, but there are are a boat load it will hurt. We all know the government needs funding, thats not the issue. The issue for me is the the blatant lies prior to an election. They had years to bring in "the best thing they can do for our economy", yet chose to lie and jam it up our backside after a majority win. Spineless arrogance. I supported the Liberals when most of the current MLA's barely knew of their existance. I was sick of the NDP doing the same crap and got involved. Stupid me. This government has no mandate for this tax or the carbon BS. Both brought in after denial in an election. They clearly need a electoral slap in the head to wake up and respect its citizens.

The sign up location is the basement of 1705 3rd St in the Professional Bldg.

The hours are;
Tuesday to Friday - 12:00 till 6:00

Sorry, I tapped the wrong key.

Hours for sign up are;
Tuesday to Friday - 12:00 to 6:00
and Saturday from 10:00 till 5:00

1705 3rd in the basement.

Come help us rid the province of the HST

dow7500

it sounds like you better sign the petition.

One thing for you to consider, we as small business owners have been on the wrong end of taxation for countless years, we get hit from so many different forms of government its silly. Billy V has taken this on as a cause, where are the leaders when it comes to small business?

socredible

Here is where your mistaken, when people take the petition and then add in things like the quotes from Eagleone. He it trying to create a cause much larger, bring the entire system as we know it to the ground by his rants.

What is written at the top of the petition? That is the only thing you should be allowed to bring up when canvassing. By bringing up the crap he is on this site is only a discredit to your cause.

Fight the tax if you like, but dont go making it an us against the world thing.

As I have said a few times, I really fear what kind of crap they people are spewing when they go to peoples doors, they have proven on here that they cant be trusted.

One more question, those people who's doors your knocking on, and the canvassers themselves, how many of them work for small business's? I wonder how many of them have thought about that?

Stompin, perhaps the HST makes sense for you in your business. Though on close examination of ALL the FACTS, I would seriously doubt it.

For me, in mine, on balance it does not.

Sure, I will benefit, as will you, through having various things now taxable under the BC Sales Tax becoming "Input Tax Credits" under the HST. And that saving is most welcome.

But I will not benefit in having to come up with another 7% to add to the costs of my inventory of raw materials, logs, in my case, that are currently not taxable under the BC Sales Tax at all.

I will not benefit from having to come up with another 7% to pay on the trucking costs of those logs, and another 7% to add to the cost of having them scaled.

I will, of course, get to deduct these costs from the HST I charge on the price I get for my lumber WHEN IT SELLS. All of my production is sold in BC. None of it is exported. So none of it is 'zero-rated'.

In my case, I generally have to inventory a fair bit of my lumber for upwards of a year, sometimes even longer, before it moves. All the while being out of pocket an additional 7% that I am not now out of pocket for at all.

Against this, I am going to recover the HST I currently don't recover when I pay BC Sales Taxes at 7% on certain of my operating costs. Things like hydro, phone, fuel, some supplies, etc..

And I would be also able to recover any HST paid on new 'capital' equipment, if, and when, I purchased any. Whereas with the current BC Sales Tax I cannot.

I do not know why I would want to purchase any additional 'capital' equipment at present, since I'm not running my present 'capital' equipment at anywhere near its full capacity.

A recent statistic I saw stated that is this quite normal, in every industry. Where, on average, even in a period of economic "boom" only 86% of 'rated' capacity was ever being utilised. Why invest to make still 'more' product when all the present product that's made can't be sold?

Many of my maintenance expenses are already exempt BC Sales Tax. They will not be exempt HST, even though I will eventually be credited with its cost on my maintenance purchases. Again when my lumber sells, and I collect the HST on it from my customers.

If I do 'custom sawing', of a customer's logs, something that is not now taxable under BC Sales Tax, I have to charge that customer 7% more under the HST.

When I sell sawdust, or planer shavings, for animal bedding or other horticulturtal purposes, an additional 7% tax has to be collected on that.

Will this have no effect on my customers? Perhaps not. Not by itself. But added to the 7% extra they now have to come up with on a whole range of items not now taxable? You bet it will! It can't help but have.

Worse, for all of us as 'small business owners', this will again cause a push for "higher wages". And a necessity to raise our prices still further when they're exacted, as they will be exacted, from us.

And we're right back on the same old 'inflationary' treadmill that we've been on so many times before. The one that's decimated so many of our number, and really benefits no one. All we'll be doing is dealing with bigger and bigger "figures", but never getting any further ahead ourselves in what they will BUY.

We have to try to stop this somewhere. This latest manifestation of "divide and conquer" that the HST embodies. It only sets one segment of society against another, and in the end, BOTH will be losers. The Petition is our chance, maybe our only chance, to say "enough is enough". WE, collectively, do NOT need to "pay" any MORE taxes . We're paying far too much as it is, and it's time we held Gordon Campbell responsible to honour the proposition he expounded before we first elected him Premier. "TAX CUTS WORK." And they DO. But Tax SHIFTS don't. And never will.

socredible,


You forget to add one very important fact which neutralizes most of your arguments.

You say you keep lumber inventory for up to a year in some cases. Therefore when the tax is implimented you will have inventory on the ground which is then tax recoverable which you have not invested one cent of HST into.

You sell your current inventories and include the tax on them come July 1st, that creates a bridge cashflow.

As for recovery on capital equipment, that is a fact of life for everybody, at some point we all have to upgrade or renew equipment, that is why there are companies around like Finning, James Western Star, Banning, Bid Construction, Comact, etc, etc. In your case you may not need to now, but at you know the only constant is change. Will you need to add a pickup, will your headsaw break, will you be forced to go to a dimension that your mill cant handle?

Tom you are wrong. We live in a democracy. Just because you may benefit from a tax rebate doesn't mean the democratic process should be ignored, as it has been by the BC liberals... simply because this time you could stand to benefit of a tax transfer.

Elections should be about having all the available information for an informed vote, and not about hidden agenda's implemented after elections. This referendum will allow the voters to have an informed vote on an issue that will fundamentally transform our taxation sovereignty in this province (not just adding a tax).

You are selfish to assume just because a tax change is good for you that democracy should be ignored to have it implemented.

Clearly what this tells us and I find very interesting on the whole debate... is that issues like this HST debate clearly separate the ideologue from the thinking man.

If the issue was flipped and an ndp government brought in a tax against your business after an election in which it was not mentioned and would be administered by a central government in Ottawa... you I am sure would call that unfair and undemocratic yelling from the roof tops that your democratic rights were violated, because you didn't have an informed vote on the issue at election time.

I'm not sure what part of the democratic process you have a problem with, but that is the issue.

------

Also He Spoke, whether or not a person voted they can still sign the petition if they are a registered voter. Who they voted for, or whether or not they choose to support anyone in the last election is irrelevant.. we all have a right to vote as part of our citizenship and this right does not come with conditions upon supporting a black mail ballot at election time, but rather is based on the positive belief of supporting a candidate when that candidate earns there support through informed discussions (even liberal insiders were surprised about the new HST tax after the election, much less the voter). The basis of any democracy is an informed vote.

Its why our attorney general is now having to step down, because he ran adds that mislead the voter and violated the Elections BC Act... not much difference from that and the lies about HST by the BC liberals.

If you support democracy and the tax, then I suggest you sign the petition in support of democracy, and then vote for the tax in an informed referendum.

Otherwise you simply do not support democracy and will sow the seed for a future where your vote means little to nothing. Really think about that and if you can tell me where that is wrong logic.

Thanks for your 'suggestion' Eagle, but I prefer to do the thinking for myself. I hope others do the same and don't blindly follow any poster on this site.

Should the HST petition succeed, the government has two options... bring it to a vote in the legislature or hold a referendum. The government would likely have a vote in the legislature and the HST would get voted in at that point.

Stompin, when I buy a load of logs from anyone who is in the business of selling logs ~ major companies, independent market loggers, woodlot operators, etc. ~ anyone who has over $ 30,000 in sales in a year, and has to be registered with the Federal government for the collection and remission of GST ~ my purchases are subject to GST.

I pay the supplier for the logs, PLUS 5% GST on that price. Within one month of my receiving them.

If the HST is implemented, I will be paying 12% on that price.

5% as now, that will be taken by the Feds for themselves, plus a further 7% that will be taken by them for the Province.

This has just raised the price of my log purchases 7%. It is 'more' money that I have to come up with to do the same thing I'm now doing now with 'less' money.

That requires I maintain a larger "working capital" balance, by retaining more of my earnings for this purpose. Or, alternately, I borrow more money from the Bank to fund these now higher cost purchases.

I will not get any of this tax back until I collect the HST on the sale of my products, my lumber and assorted by-products. Sure, I do get the use of any HST I collect on sales in between the time I collect it and when I have to remit it. But that is not "my" money, it takes some time for it to build up to what I've already paid out, and I have to be very careful that I retain enough liquidity to be able to remit the tax when it is due.

When the HST collected for the relevant period is totaled, I get to keep a portion of the HST collected equal to the HST I paid on logs, and my other HST taxable purchases in that period.

While some of our lumber always turns over very quickly, much of it does not. Much of it we "value-add", as the saying goes, and to do this successfully requires time to accumulate the 'right' inventory.

Adding to the cost of carrying that inventory is certainly no help to the process. Some products are highly seasonal. They sell well at certain times of the year, and at other times there's virtually no demand for them at all. This is one of the main reasons why there is such a lack of interest in the "value-added" process amongst major industry players. They simply cannot afford to sit on inventory that long. And really, neither can the "little guy", not when his costs increase like this.

As for "capital cost" tax savings under the HST, they will occur, and be welcomed ~ but it's "operating costs" that are the more important. And the largest "operating cost" for most mills is the cost of their 'raw materials'. Not now taxable Provincially, but very much so under the HST.

Mr. PG:- "Should the HST petition succeed, the government has two options... bring it to a vote in the legislature or hold a referendum. The government would likely have a vote in the legislature and the HST would get voted in at that point."
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Now that may well be so, Mr. PG, if the Petition organizers call it a day as soon as they've collected the requisite 10% signatures in all the ridings, plus just enough extra in each one to ensure a margin of safety.

But what happens if they hang in there and there is an overwhelming number of people that sign? Say more than 50 % of the eligible voters, in, say, well over half of the total ridings? Which, while it is too early to predict at this time, could be a distinct possibility.

When un-official, but professionally conducted "polls" ~ those devices that seem to have an uncanny way of predicting public sentiment ~ show up to 85% of BC citizens opposed to this tax, I wouldn't want to bet on the 'complacency' of the majority when it comes to signing that Petition.

So how, then, do "our" representatives vote if and when the issue comes up in the Legislature? They certainly can't maintain that we have "represntative" government if they are not 'represnting' the clearly expressed wish of the people on this issue, can they?

And if that's to be the case, and we're so desperately short of 'money' for government provided services as those on the government side seem to be alledging, then why do we need THEM at all? Just what else DO they "do' to justify what WE, (not their "Party") are paying them?

"But what happens if they hang in there and there is an overwhelming number of people that sign? Say more than 50 % of the eligible voters, in, say, well over half of the total ridings? Which, while it is too early to predict at this time, could be a distinct possibility. "

I'm reminded of the example in the US where the vast majority of people were against government bailouts to industry and banks during the financial crisis, yet it still happened.

My personal gut feeling is that the petition campaign will ultimately fail. There's just too much that has to go perfectly for the campaign to succeed, and while I wish the petitioners luck in their quest, I think the effort will prove futile.

socredible,

I suggest you spend some time with your accountant, you are wrong on a few things in your past post.

You file your HST every 3 months the same as you did with GST, if you pay out more in HST than you collected you get a rebate back. You do not sit on HST.

2nd, all the inventory you have now, when you sell it after July 1 you receive HST, that is cash flow. You immediatly get money from that, despite the fact that you have not paid any PST in the aquasition of that wood previously bought.

Either way, by the looks of your posts you should make an appointment with your accountant and get it cleared up because you are VERY wrong in the way see the cash flow.

Eagleone,

I am no longer bothering to read your posts. You have gone to far, your bringing in things which have no relevance yet in you world you think your right and no other opinion counts.

Maybe you should take a few days and then go back and read what you have written the past few days, see just how far off your rocker you have gone.

As MrPG said, I prefer to make up my own mind, I dont need you to tell me what to do.

Stompin', Eagle has a pretty high view of his posts and probably believes that a lot of people follow what he has to say. This will not likely change.

Stompin, first of all, in my business we remit the GST EVERY month, not every quarter. I suppose we could elect to remit every quarter, but I much prefer to do so monthly since in some months our Input Tax Credits occasionally exceed our GST collected on Sales. And it's nice to get a 'rebate' on the Tax paid on purchases, mostly log purchases, the following month.

Secondly, the HST that will be collected on any of my lumber inventory that sells after July 1st, will be sent in to the government by whatever date they determine it to be due and payable.

If the date remains the same as for the GST, that would make it payable to them by August 31st for whatever was collected in July.

We have not yet been informed by the government whether the due date is going to remain the same for HST as for GST. Or if they're going to change it. I did see something in the news that it was going to be payable every quarter, but whether that will apply to all businesses without exception, I do not know.

Thirdly, there are no offsetting Input Tax Credits for the 'provincial' 7% of the HST on any of my pre-July inventory, because 'logs' are not now taxable under the BC Sales Tax. And no 7% tax was paid by my Company on them when they were purchased. The 7% 'provincial' portion of the HST collected on sales in July won't be retained by me, it will go, just as it does now with BC Sales Tax, to the government.

After July 1st, any log purchases will be subject to the HST at 12%, instead of as now, where they're only taxable at 5% through the GST, And, as raw materials, tax free under the existing BC Sales Tax. And this entire 12% will be an Input Tax Credit against the NEXT month's HST collected by me on my sales in THAT month. That is my understanding of how it works.

My accountant, (who bemoans the necessity of having to charge 7% more to his clients for preparation of their annual personal Income Tax Returns), has not informed me differently.

Mr. PG:- "I'm reminded of the example in the US where the vast majority of people were against government bailouts to industry and banks during the financial crisis, yet it still happened."
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Well, I think the backlash from that has yet to be felt by the two major political parties down there. It's growing, and it's organizing, and it won't long be ignored.

Federally, the US doesn't have any provision for an Initiative and Referendum process, though many of the individual States do. And have taken that process far further than is possible here under the current BC law.


I don't advocate that we go the same route they've gone in their State governments. I believe the process we have here has been made purposefully difficult for good reason. But I think that this particular issue has the general public fired up enough for us to overcome those purposeful difficulties, and the Petition itself will be successful. We'll soon see.

Down there, in regards to the bailouts, the "vast majority" were probably right. The bailouts didn't solve the underlying problem that necessitated them, but only bought time.

I believe the American public INTUITIVELY "knew" that they were no solution. And no 'real' solution would follow. So far, none has.

Just as the public here also INTUITIVELY "knows" that the HST is not going to be the answer towards improving government finances, even though it's going to cost US a lot more, ostensibly towards that end.

They 'know', but they just don't quite have the degree of knowledge necessary to know "WHY". Not yet.

Correction:- I wrote above, "And this entire 12% will be an Input Tax Credit against the NEXT month's HST collected by me on my sales in THAT month. That is my understanding of how it works." "NEXT" should read "THAT". Sorry about that.