This is a tragedy. Totally unbelievable to see how this City is letting things fall apart around it.

Not a surprise. I can't believe how difficult this city hall can be. It only takes a few people to cause a problem. Some good people work there no doubt, but the few who aren't can sure ruin it for everyone.

Wow the City sure has dropped the ball on this one. How long did it take to plan the new Boundary Road extension?

How about the decision to buy the PG Hotel properties? That money should have been used to get this development plan moving.

I wonder how many developers or possible tenants have given up on waiting for the City.

I've heard it said before; The City of Prince George, NOT open for business.
Bureaucracy at its finest.
metalman.

"Parker says they have a buyer for the property".

But, it is conditional on having a zoning plan in place.

Therein lies the dilemma for the City I would think.

From the Nelson-Welch report to Council last night.

"Development elsewhere in the city impacts Downtown Prince George. Offices, retail uses and services that locate outside of the city centre represent, in many instances, lost opportunities for downtown. If the city as a whole were experiencing strong net growth the situation might be different. Sluggish growth and relatively modest growth forecasts, however, mean that new development for the city as a whole is limited, and, as such, where development goes within the city is important. For Downtown Prince George to truly revitalize it will need to capture much of the growth — commercial and multi‐family residential — that is anticipated for the city as a whole.”

We have a business, a golf course, that has had some financial problems. Their solution is to sell the land which has a potentially high value and purchase a lower valued property to develop that into a hoped-for superior golf course to which people will flock.

The cost the City. A continuation of decades of sprawls-ville planning. On the one hand, smart-growth-on-the-ground, on the other, bail out our golf course buddies and throw smart-growth out the window.

What do the City Daddies and Mommies really believe in? What did they promise us when they ran for election?

“We will continue the errors of our predecessors’ ways”? I did not hear that.

There is more to this whole Golf Course business than meets the eye. Dont forget that five years ago the property was going to be sold to the Pomeroy Group from Grande Prairie. This fell through. Then it was going to be picked up by a New Westminister developer, and that fell through. Then is was going to be purchased by on consortium of local investers, and that is the group who are presently waiting for the City to come up with the Neibourhood Plan.

What kind of a neibourhood plan are we talking about. As I understand it the City wants to build a 18 hole par 3 course on this property. They want to maintain the Curling Rink for the near future, and of course develop the land fronting Highway 97 and Highway 16, and Westwood Drive Commercial, Housing, etc;

The Par 3 Golf Course would replace the present par 3 at Pine Valley, and this property would become available for the City to sell for light industrial. The present Prince George Golf course building would become offices etc; to run the Golf Course, and Curling, and would become part of the Pinewood Community Centre.

This is mostly conjecture on my part, however it is probably pretty close to what is going on. There is however a number of flys in the ointment.

1. The PG Golf and Curling Club is very close to being broke.

2. There is no gaurantee that if they get the $15 Million from the investors and build the new course that this will solve their problems mainly because.

a. The average age of the present members is about 60.

b. I suspect that all members would not go to the new course. Some have already left the present course and their membership is declining every year. Others would just stay in town and golf on the new Par 3.

c. There are very few new members taking up Golf as a pastime. The cost of the game has become prohibitive, especially for young people who have little money.

d. With a decline in membership, older members leaving the game, through illness, etc; a limited number of new golfers coming on stream, and the added competition from, Aspen Grove, Aberdeen Glen, Yellowhead, Alder Hills, Nesswood, and the new Par 3 they want to build,it will be very hard to get new members.

Moving from the present course to a new course Northwest of Prince George off Foothills, would be a shorter golf season because of snow melt etc; and therefor less revenue.

I suggest that the new course will have the same finiancial problems that the present course has. If I was running the PGGCC I would seriously consider staying where I was., and try and solicit a loan from the NTI to cover my present debts, and then try and upgrade and promote the course as a tourist attraction for golfers, such as it used to be years ago.

This is not likely to happen, because the fat is in the fire. The developers including the City want this property, and the Golf Course being a Semi Private Society has very little if any clout. Moving them out to the boondocks, so that this property is available for development is the prime concern. Having a functional Golf Course for the 500 or so remaining members of the PGGCC is a secondary concern.

Come into my den said the spider to the fly. And he did.

Palopu I agree with you. I think it makes no sense to move the course, just fix it up. If it is moved that will be the end.

An expensive end.

To the board of directors, your own damn fault for opening up the pandora box of entertaining the idea to sell the prime real estate property and building an new golf course. Sounds like the board was did not do their own homework, and believed it would cost that much to cut the trees and replant. The new course would have had beetle kill also. So, what was the difference.

The advantage of the PGGCC is that it is in the middle of town, and 70 year olds will keep up their membership vice, because it is a cheap way to maintain connections with commarads. A new course means bigger annual dues, meaning more travel and more cost to these coffin dodgers. So can you blame these members from quitting, when the board has this much uncertainty. Goes back to the board deserves it.

I think, the PGGCC, is going to be in dire straights and the banks will pull the rug out from underneath anyway. To the board of directors for the last ten years, I salute your incompetance.

Your dads built the golf course, because it was the right thing to do, they gave the reins to you to manage it. In less than 15 years, you believed it was running well, and did not seriously looked into the crystal ball, to mitigate the situation and now, you are gonna loose it all.

See those people who are quitting the membership. They are quitting to distance themselves from the course, so they do not have to face the embarassment.

Hmmmm, Aberdeen seems like a nice place to whack the ball around. Maybe even Aspen. Then there's Maggie Mays, Pine valley, yellowhead, Ness Lake, and the one out in Blackburn. Thus seven other courses. So don't say that golf is a dying sport. its alive and well, its that PGGCC failed to open their eyes to see what was happening around them, and thought that their history was enough to cover for poor management decisions. Ba bye.

So what should the city do. Wait for the banks to pull the pin. Pay the banks off for no more than what they got stiffed for. Hang on to it for ten years, than sell a portion of it too Pine Center.

The City of Prince George, forms a real estate company, and leases out serviced lots. Thus, in the long run, it will make money at it, and reduce our long term taxes. The commercial park has to have lots of green space.

I don't know why so many bloggers want to blame the city on this. They have very little interest on it. Do they want to have development from green space to commercial. No. They want it to remain greenspace.

Does the City collecy taxes on this property or does the golf club pay a special rate?

I'm assuming if the land was developed, there would be an increased revenue from property taxes.

Just grind up the stumps and build apartments for the homeless and other unfortunates. But not for $248,000 per unit again. That would make anyone want to be homeless.

While the sale is one issue the real opportunity thst the City is missing is the economic development of the area. Private citizens, without any government subsidy, are initially investing $15 million. They will have to spend an additonal amount to develop the area, say three to four times more and there will be a new course built. All in that's 60 to 75 million of non government supported development. Are there any other projects like that around?

An alternative would be to consider the long term value of a golf course and facilities only five minutes from City Hall and at the cross roads of Northern BC. Does that have any appeal for people and businesses looking to relocate? If so then some finanicial aid might be a good long term investment and maybe something Northern Initatives Development Trust could channel funds to the City to use.

"I don't know why so many bloggers want to blame the city on this."

I suppose because the land is not zoned for the purposes any developer wants to pick it up. The initial and subsequent developers do not want to spend the money to put together a proposal to the City for rezoning and the City has had an interest in part of the land so that they can swap land some of the land.

So, in effect, they are holding up the process and have done so for several years.

At the same time, neither the golf course nor any of the potential developers have put in any effort to force the City's hand by putting in a rezoning application from the sounds of it.

These people must all have that southern attitude .... mañana

"These people must all have that southern attitude"

Or perhaps they are just tiny small fish who think they are big fish, totally oblivious to the fact that they are in WAY over their head in regards to a development of this scale. Given the way that PG has developed in the past, I have ZERO confidence that any group comprised of local investors has the experience or capacity to pull off this development in a meaningful and positive manner. That's the development side.

As for the PGGCC itself, the place has been around for what, 60 years or so? I suspect the folks that started the course and put all of their sweat and energy into it are rolling in their graves seeing what has transpired in recent times. Properly managed, there is simply no way that this facility should be in trouble. People can say whatever they want, but there are only two TRUE full sized courses in PG, that being the PGGCC and Aberdeen. The rest compete in a different market. Over the past number of years, the PG course has been in terrible condition to start the year, they have done nothing to attract new customers to the course, the restaurant is disgraceful, you quite often still feel like you aren't welcomed when you walk into the place looking to play a round and the club is still full of people who think they are allot more significant than they actually are. It's an old boys club if there ever was one, there is little to no evidence that they really want to do the things necessary to turn things around and they are hanging on by a thread as a result. From a pure operations perspective, their lackadaisical attitude has directly contributed to the problems they face and like others have said in this thread, in many cases they have nobody but themselves to blame. Perhaps the board of directors should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they've done to address the issues within their control.

Well said NMG.

Plant some new trees and call it a day! Keep the course where it is. If it's moved to North Nechako it will be the final nail in the coffin.

If they would have planted lombardy poplar when they knew what was happening with the pine almost a decade ago, they would have had a temporary replacement trees. Lomabardies are extrmely fast growing and, with good watering, will do quite well.

The pine could then have been removed and another slower growing and less vulnerable and less invasive variety planted so that eventually the poplars could be removed after they did their temporary duty.

Vernon course
http://www.vernongolf.com/images/gallery/Golf-0449.jpg

Good post gus. The thing is though, a plan like that would've take some foresight and strategic thinking and none of that exists out there. The whole operation is purely reactionary. Even now I don't think they have a plan for what to do if the new course falls through. It's actually ridiculous to be honest.

There is no reason whatsover that the stumps couldn't be ground down over a period of a year or two, new trees planted, some landscaping done to change the layout of certain sections of the course, etc. Heck, why not even look at whether some holes could be re-designed so that some land could be made available to sell for building lots for residential development? They need someone to come in there who knows how to turn an operation around, has an open mind and is willing to break some of the "old" rules to make it happen.

The basic layout of the course is just fine and IMHO, there are indeed viable options that could be explored for re-developing it into a golf course with a new character.

I think some of you are missing the point.

1. The City has been trying to get their hands on the Pine Valley Golf course for some time. They own the property but they have difficulty closing down that Golf Course because it is perfect for Older Golfers, Women, and Children. They have tried to relocate it in the past and ran into huge resistance.

2. With the PGGCC moving to a new location this gives the City the opportunity to build a par 3 Course on the Golf course lands which in effect will satisfy those who presently golf at the par 3 Pine Valley, and this frees up the property at Pine Valley for the City to sell to commercial interests. They will make millions on the sale of the Pine Valley Property.

3. I beleive that the new Par 3 will be owned by the City along with the Club House and Curling facilities, and it will be run by the Citys recreational division or by contractors,.

4. The balance of the land will be developed by Private interests,. Ie Land along Highway 97 and 16, Ferry Avenue, and Westwood Avenue.

5. The City has the ***hammer** in this situation because they control the zoning, and therefore can dictate what goes onto the land.

6. The PGG&CC is a semi private society. If they go broke, all the assets of the society return to the Provincial Crown. None of the members can make any profit from a society. Im sure rather than have the property and assets go to the :Province, the City will make some sort of arrangement for the Golf Course to relocate. If they go broke in the new location, away out in the boon docks, who would care.

7. This is all about the City getting more land to sell for developers, and they really could care less about the average citizen.

8. All the property fronting Highway 16 from the Playhouse Theatre to Cosco, was given to the City in the 1940's to be used as recreational land for perpetuity. You can see that the City has been able to get it all for developers in the last 15 years. They did it by doing the following.

A. Relocate PAGARA to Highway 16 East.

B. Relocate the ball fields to North Nechako road (Grave pit) and Carrie Jane Park (Slough)

C. Relocate horseshow pits to Carrie Jane Grey Park.

D. Relocate soccer fields to 15th and Ospika.

E. They plan to relocate the Tennis Courts closer to the PGGCC Clubhouse.

F. Once the Golf Course relocates the Driving Range will probably disapear.

G. They will tear down the Playhouse Theatre, ostensibly because it will not be needed because we are building to new Performing Arts Centre.

So if you look at what happened over the past 15 years it is pretty obviouse that there was a plan all along, and it was a plan for the City to make huge dollars selling this prime property, and for developers to get their hands on prime property.

Question::: With all the money that the Citys makes in these real estate deals, does anyone know where the money goes. Does it go into a special account, or into general revenue.? The City never seems to be short of money when it comes to buying and selling property.

More people ATV and dirt bike in this town than golf IMO. Moving the golf course right into the center of prime riding territory almost kills one sport for the benefit of another. That riding area is some of the best in the province and is a real asset PG has that no other city has... to loose it for this golf development would be a dark dark day in PG IMO.

As Palopu writes it, it paints the City as a Machiavellian organization.

That is one way to look at it.

Why is it even plausible?

Because this City is simply not forthright with the population is serves. It puts on the show that it is whenever it has to or whenever it is in their interest.

I am reminded once more when these kind of issues resurface that they have hired, at major expense, a communications person who we have still not heard from.

Perhaps it is taking longer to train him to the realities of the position than first thought.

One more thing. The development that the City has allowed in that highway location is hardly anything to be proud of.

Other cities have managed to put the cars inboard while keeping the unsightly service side of the rental units screened from the highway. It is hardly a pleasant view of our city for those who pass through it along the highways.

Most importantly, it is located where the tenants should be regional in nature. Liquor stores, subway's, BCAA, financial institutions, dollar stores are hardly regional operations. In fact, most should be located in the core of the city. BCAA, for instance, moved from the core to there.

Businesses should be free to move where they wish. The thing though is that the City is making it easier to move businesses from the core to the periphery and arterials.

When will we elect people who understand even just the simplest principles of city planning?

Here are images of what I am talking about. Walking through google street view.

PG HWY 16
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/2u40aaw.jpg[/IMG]
Look at unkempt landscaping, utility poles and unimaginative backside of building.

Here are images of the new shopping centre along Marine Way drving towards New Westminster.

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2qioa6p.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/6yntp4.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/219yqv9.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/28sn8g8.jpg[/IMG]

From my point of view, that is a development to be proud of.

And they say it is difficult to do business in PG. Unbelievable!!! Any place that allows such minimal standards is not what I would consider a place that is difficult to do business in.

sorry .... this should be better...

http://i48.tinypic.com/2u40aaw.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2qioa6p.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/6yntp4.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/219yqv9.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/28sn8g8.jpg

Here is another one of those unsightly messes left by both the City as well as Highways.

Why do we accept such standards?? Those are not the standards of the 4 laning projects I see driving along HWY 97 south of the city.

http://i47.tinypic.com/i5u5b5.jpg

As a female member of PGGCC I can tell you that it is an old boys club and the old boys have got themselves into a pickle. Poorly run over the years and a holier than though attitude has cost them plenty. Sadly, they've learned nothing from the past. Time to clean house I'd say. And move - whose stupid idea was that?