I love it when democracy works!
These people have done a damn fine job and are to be commended!
This what happens when those we elect choose not to listen to the people who elected them.
And rightly so!
To have honest government,we need more of this!
It is their job to "represent" those who elected them...not to dictate.

Welcome to the Banana Rebublic of British Columbia.

My hats off to the organizers and participants in their efforts. Lets hope it brings about some real change.

Hopefully we are on the cusp of something really great.

Yep we are on a cusp. Of our economy going backwards, as the socialist take over.

So much misinformation in so little time! I personally would rather see a transparent HST than the alternative, but if you can't see it, it must not be there!

I'm all for the HST. Tax, tax, tax. It's because your families take on to much dept is why this tax is going to go through. I hope it breaks you backs this tax. Shows ya all to teach your kids to pay for something not borrow it. Credit is not money. Serves you right. Maybe you should sell that big truck you hall around town.

Gee chris, I see you're making a lot of sense again today. I DO teach my son to pay for things. I DON"T owe anyone anything. I work hard for my money. So, why do I deserve this tax???

"Maybe you should sell that big truck you hall around town".

I have to repair our deck today , but I don't think your little 4 banger will carry the 12' boards I need chrislivingdowntown!

And its "haul" not hall!

"The naysayers said it couldn't be done,
But we with conviction replied,
That "maybe it couldn't", but we would be ones,
Who wouldn't say so 'til we'd tried.
So we started right right in with a trace of a grin,
On our faces. If we worried at all we hid it.
We started to sing as we tackled the thing
That "couldn't be done", and WE did it!"

And only now our Premier admits that the HST "mght" be hugely unpopular? Lets give him a message even he can understand.

I love Gordo LOL he's my hero lol

If there's a "socialist take over", He spoke, it'll only be because that idiot we currently have as Premier, and all those gutless wonders we have as Liberal MLAs too scared of him to speak up, wouldn't listen to the PEOPLE they're being paid to 'represent'.

If we can't make it clear to them what they're there for, then we may as well have the 'socialists'.

At least they're not lying to us about their 'tax and spend' agenda, even if they don't like the HST method of achieving it.

A higher tax agenda exactly the same kind of thing we're getting from Campbell's Liberals. Except, maybe, we might still get a little bit back in services for it.

Whatever happened to "Tax CUTS work"? They DO, too. But not when WE're not the ones receiving them, and they all go to "big business" like they'll do with the HST, at our further expense.

You good strong Liberal supporters better tell you're 'boy' to smarten up. Before it's too late, and what you fear most becomes reality.

Vancouver- Langara please get on board! It will be interesting to see what the Liberals are going to do when they are presented with this legitimate democratic reaction to their HST trojan horse!

It will be a long torturous procedure, many hoops to jump through - recall may be the only option if this petition is ignored and swept under the carpet.

Chris when you get a job you'll understand why people want to keep some of their own money.

Posted by: chrislivingdowntown on May 26 2010 7:53 AMI'm all for the HST. Tax, tax, tax. It's because your families take on to much dept is why this tax is going to go through. I hope it breaks you backs this tax. Shows ya all to teach your kids to pay for something not borrow it. Credit is not money. Serves you right. Maybe you should sell that big truck you hall around town.

** spoke like a person who doesn't have a job, family, home to look after!!

Right on Anastasia...took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you!
Did anyone see Gordo on the BC Global news last night? It was a good laugh. When asked about the HST & the petition, he sure looked scared now that it looks like he may have to do something about it. He's gonna have egg on his face this time.

Now that a number of MLAs are looking at being ousted in the next election, you would have to wonder if we will see the end of party dictators running the whole of BC government, the way it has for so long? You got to dream some days!

non-partisan party!
The only answer to changing the system from within.

Bang on he spoke. We do live in a banana republic (not "rebublic"). Gordo and his minions made sure of that.

where's mrpg and stumping tum? I look forward to their spin.

"you would have to wonder if we will see the end of party dictators running the whole of BC government,"

----------------------------------------

No, we won't! It doesn't matter which party is in power! Every party leader is in CHARGE and the buck stops with the leader.

A leader with a weak personality who can't keep his/her troops in line won't last half a year.

During the nineties in B.C. every party leader ran the show! All MLAs of his party
toed the line as required and as expected. Not one spoke up and said anything contrary to the party line. Not one crossed the floor.

Campbell is not doing anything different. His personality isn't one of diplomacy and tact.

It is very easy not to like him, but until the day he announces his retirement he is still in charge even if some people think he acts like a dictator.

"you would have to wonder if we will see the end of party dictators running the whole of BC government,"

----------------------------------------

No, we won't! It doesn't matter which party is in power! Every party leader is in CHARGE and the buck stops with the leader.

A leader with a weak personality who can't keep his/her troops in line won't last half a year.

During the nineties in B.C. every party leader ran the show! All MLAs of his party
toed the line as required and as expected. Not one spoke up and said anything contrary to the party line. Not one crossed the floor.

Campbell is not doing anything different. His personality isn't one of diplomacy and tact.

It is very easy not to like him, but until the day he announces his retirement he is still in charge even if some people think he acts like a dictator.

I would like to say thank you to all the canvassers who took the time to walk for miles to collect names for the STOP THE HST INITIATIVE!
I am very proud of British Columbians! We are a very big example to the rest of Canada that THE PEOPLE HAVE A SAY AND WILL FIGHT TO KEEP IT. Government are paid by the people and should represent the people. If they want to help big corporation then they should get them to PAY for THEIR HIGH ON THE HOG LIVING. Way to go everyone!!

Prince George:-"During the nineties in B.C. every party leader ran the show! All MLAs of his party
toed the line as required and as expected. Not one spoke up and said anything contrary to the party line. Not one crossed the floor.

-----------------------------------------

There's a difference between having a system that enables someone with the requisite skills to exercise his genuine ability to "lead" successfully where people WANT to go.

And a system that simply involves someone completely lacking in those skills "compelling" them to go where they oftentimes don't, and wouldn't, unless forced to by that system.

The NDP was the epitome of that latter set-up all through the '90's. People with genuine talent within its ranks, and there were some ~ people like Corky Evans, for instance ~ could not bring themselves to break ranks and point out openly to their own Party where it was going wrong, or how it could better serve ALL British Columbians.

They had to maintain "solidarity" ~ and they did, and their Party's annihilation was the result.

We would expect better from a so-called "free-enterprise" Party.

But what have we got? There is no "thinking" in the current ranks of the BC Liberal MLA's. They expect their "Leader" to do all that for them.

And when he repeatedly demonstrates that his thinking, if you could say anyone who's such a "global groupie" even CAN still "think", is flawed, they don't know what to do. There's not even a POTENTIAL "leader" amongst them. They really DO have to go. Surely, for the sake of "free-enterprise" itself, we can do better than that?

I wonder how many people actually read the list of HST applicable items. So much misinformation!!!!

He Spoke, why don't you explain to everyone on this blog how this fight-HST campaign is a socialist agenda?

RUEZ I have two jobs lady and you can blow that up your know what.

Anastasia you make me sick. Who the hell are you to judge me anyways. Seems like you fools are on here daily crying about everything. Sure as hell wouldn't want to be in a relationship with you fools.

RUEZ or is it Rhiannon. Hmmm seems to me it is. If it is why do you gums flap as they do. Must be all the ratting out you did over the years rat.

I signed the petition just to see what happens. Can someone out there answer three questions for me about this whole thing.

1) Would you rather be taxed at point of sale or on your income? The Province is broke, they need the money, I would rather be taxed on what I buy not what I earn.

2) What should they do to increase Provincial revenue? They have already fired a bunch of government workers, no one seems to want to make people financially responsible for their health, what should they do.

3) Would you sign a petition to give every person in BC $500 on the first of the month? My point is just because the people want it, doesn't mean that it is good for the Province in general, our elected officials have to keep that in mind, not the whims of the electorate.

Well Porter.

1)The HST is not an increase of tax revenue for the province, it is a tax transfer from corporations to us common folk. So this does not solve the "province is broke" problem.

2)Instead of the province always looking for more revenue from the tax payer, perhaps they could learn to live within thier means. Something that is constantly being preached to the common folk.

3)How is this good for the province Porter, it is a revenue neutral tax shift.

This tax shift is nothing more than corporate welfare or corporate socialism.
Far from free enterprise.

Bottom line here is people spend more then they have and for that taxes must go up. I hope it goes through. I am also betting oh 1 dollar that Premier Gordon Campbell will win again as will Shirley Bond. Which to me has done amazing job as far as I am concerned. The HST and any other taxes would be cool to pay for people who rather go in dept then pay when they have money. This has nothing to do with government greed fools. Your kids are spoiled rotten to the core and need more. They don't need no more.

Joeboy,

Im right here, never once did I say your petition would fail, hell I would have been astounded if it did.

My question for you is, what have you achieved at this point?

The people have made some noise, some MLA's are saying the right thing about being concerned, but the fact of the matter is in about 36 days HST will be the law.

What I wonder is if you can keep the momentum up over the next 12-18 month period which it will take before anything can happen.

Joeboy,

by the way, Im curious, I have always stated that I am pro-business and therefor pro-HST. Why is it you have a problem with that? Are you so small minded that you cant accept the fact that others can have a differing opinion?

Never once have I tried to sway anybody from signing the petition, but I have spent allot of time correcting allot of half truths, lies and fear mongering.

One more question for Joeboy and only Joeboy please. Do you know what you have signed? Have you read it, can you state the proper name?

Chris

The poor, single parents, sick and elderly are not spoilt rotten kids. Most of them have never had luxury. This tax will affect them the most. Most of them have no credit, loans or dept. Most British Columbians are not RICH. They are hard working stiffs just trying to provide for their families. You act as if everyone fits nicely in your rich box or debt box. This tax that gave huge corperations a big break is passed on to the people I mentioned above who are barely making it as it is. The elderly do not get raises. Hell most of us have not had a raise in years. Raises are for government workers and bankers. I agree with another poster on here who said "If government wants to work for corperations rather than the people who elected them in and pay their wages then they should be paid by the corperations". End of story.

People forget Campbell lied about the budget deficit during the last election. He lied about the HST. He did this to get re-elected. He portrayed himself and the liberal party to be better managers of the economy in the looming recession than the NDP would be. As we now know the read my lips deficit of five hundred million was really 2.5 billion.
The liberals sneaky way of supporting the car dealers by now having auto buyers from private sellers paying an additional 5%. Not having to pay the 5% was a way people could save money if they bought a used car privately. The amount estimated in the budget this additional 5% will take out of the consumers pocket is huge. Instead of no tax on clothes for kids now it will all be size related.
How this tax shift from business to the consumer is going to help the overtaxed working man is beyond belief.
Even with Campbell gone it is unfortunate a couple of good people in Bell and Bond will be casualties in the next election. The NDP can only hope Campbell with his arrogant manner stick around for the next election. The NDP won't have to send a lot of money campaigning to defeat the Campbell and the liberal sheep.

Anastasia you make me sick. Who the hell are you to judge me anyways. Seems like you fools are on here daily crying about everything. Sure as hell wouldn't want to be in a relationship with you fools.

Who am I, well I am one of the tax paying citizen's that make it possible for you to collect your welfare cheque so you can continue to sit at home and do work out videos to post on youtube!!

and it is not crying as much as verbalizing how we as working, contributing citizens get bent over continuously!

relationship??? where the hell did that come from??? you are safe from me wanting to date you!! LOL

yup that is who I am, and since I pay taxes and contribute to society I have paid my dues to cry about being bent over again!!!

Posted by: IMO on May 26 2010 4:36 PMChris

The poor, single parents, sick and elderly are not spoilt rotten kids. Most of them have never had luxury. This tax will affect them the most. Most of them have no credit, loans or dept. Most British Columbians are not RICH. They are hard working stiffs just trying to provide for their families. You act as if everyone fits nicely in your rich box or debt box. This tax that gave huge corperations a big break is passed on to the people I mentioned above who are barely making it as it is. The elderly do not get raises. Hell most of us have not had a raise in years. Raises are for government workers and bankers. I agree with another poster on here who said "If government wants to work for corperations rather than the people who elected them in and pay their wages then they should be paid by the corperations". End of story.

GOOD POST IMO

Of course nobody mentions that single parents, sick and the elderly will also be getting the biggest HST rebate cheques.

Socredible, good post! Except for one thing: You say that Campbell's MLAs don't do any thinking. How do we know that? We don't and we can't know what goes on inside a human brain. They are just as capable of thinking as individuals as any other human being. And I bet that as soon as Campbell announces his official retirement a plethora of capable Liberal thinkers will step forward to replace him.

That is why he is saving his announcement for the most opportune time in order to prevent open fighting amongst them.

Anastasia I do work two jobs here but I survived S.I.D.S as a child which did bring on some brain injury in the form of Border Line Personality Disorder. Which took years to find out here. I had to go back east to obtain a Windsor Star article. One of two actually. One was in 1970 and then again in 1982. See people years here in BC said it couldn't of happened. Well it did. And I have done very well. But I can't stand social workers now at 40. Since they have been in my life since I was four. Think of this for a few moments. Think of how strong of a baby I was. I am so tired of people you that hate me for just being me. You should be so ashamed but you are not. Thats sad.

Some people need to be either educated, d or sued. Suing sounds pretty good.

Well, if they are capable of 'thinking', Prince George, why don't they exhibit that talent occasionally?

Remember back when Campbell was first elected and announced he was going to have "open Cabinet meetings", and these would be televised for all too see how the inner workings of his government operated?

I watched a few of those on tv, and while I'm not under any illusions that anything of substance was being discussed while the cameras were on, I have never seen such a mousey, sheep-like bunch of yes-men and women anywhere. It was utterly sickening.

There was no debate, no differing opinions, no meaningful suggestions, just unbridled sychophancy, as if they were all of the exact same mind as 'Fearless Leader'. Afraid to say anything that might offend him. Something of the nature we might expect to see in old Soviet Russia, or modern North Korea.

If this is how they behave when the cameras aren't there, and from what's happened between then and now indicates strongly that that's the case, just what kind of people are they, anyways? Certainly not 'normal', that's for sure! And that should be of concern to all of us.

Just the other day my older son gave me a couple of old Vancouver Sun newspapers he'd found stuffed in the wall of an old house he's been renovating. And there, in a front page news story from 1957, was some long forotten Socred MLA named Mel Bryan, literally savaging his own Government in
the Legislature for not getting some long promised bridge underway in his riding.

And in the other, Cyril Shelford, long time Socred MLA for Omineca was raising hell about lock-step gasoline price rises of all the big oil companies in his riding, and the north in general,(somethings never change!), and demanding WAC Bennett's government, HIS OWN PARTY, do something about it.

These guys were acting on behalf of their constituents, the people who elected them and whose taxes paid their salaries. Which were pretty meagre in those days in comparison to what our MLAs are getting now. At that time, virtually every MLA had to hold down another job to live, unless he was in the Cabinet ~ and Bennett never had a large Cabinet.

There was no suggestion that they should be booted out of the Socred caucus because they differed with their Leader, and spoke up for the people who'd elected them. Contrast that with what we have today.

From the NDP, with it's "Union" background, we'd expect universal enforced 'solidarity' ~ that's part of their philosophy. But from a group that's supposed to hold an opposing philosophy?

The BC Liberals are one sick Party, and the quicker some other "free-enterprise" replacement for them forms, the better. I doubt whether there's a man or woman amongst their number now who could save them if Campbell quits. And nothing can save them if he stays.

Of course, they could save themselves, by LISTENING to the PEOPLE, and rescinding the HST.

Best chuckle of the year so far happened last night. Gordo was seen on CTV news whining about the anti HST leaders not telling the truth. What goes around comes around. "I won't sell BCR or impliment HST and my uncle's name is Japeto"

Socredible:"Well, if they are capable of 'thinking', Prince George, why don't they exhibit that talent occasionally?"

You are expecting them to commit political suicide by openly challenging the leader who sets the agenda.

Why would they? What would be the advantage? Others before them did not, at least not since the Socred days.

Is it happening in Ottawa, with any of the established parties? You know what happens when someone steps out of line. Punishment and banishment.

Realistically speaking you are asking for the politically impossible.

Stompin Tom:-"Of course nobody mentions that single parents, sick and the elderly will also be getting the biggest HST rebate cheques."
------------------------------------------
Nobody mentions YOU'LL be getting a far BIGGER one as an Input Tax Credit, either, Stompin.

So lets not try to salve the conscience of
the greedy on the backs of the single parents, the sick and the elderly.

Recover your PST payment on your 'capital costs' through depreciation allocated into price, and if your production is exported, let the foreigner pay the price.

It's only right he pay something for the government provided infrastructure and services that have helped enable the product to be delivered to him. Which he did pay in price, through the PST as it was.

With HST he gets a free ride, and WE get to make up his fare through higher taxes. That's not right, and you know it.

Tom; may I call you Tom? So glad you could come out and play.

My petition?? Hardly sir, and you do the Zalm a great disservice by trying to blame me for his attempt to give something back to the people of British Columbia. I think we should just let him enjoy the moment, ok?

When you ask "what have you achieved at
this point"? I assume you refer to the anti-hst petition. I would have to confess I have achieved nada in this enterprise. If you refer to my life's accomplishments; I am far too modest to post them in cyberspace. You can rest assured I have worked, paid my bills and assorted taxes all my life. That's all anyone needs to know.

I never said I had a problem with you being a businessman and pro-hst. I think that's great. Without people on both sides we would have nothing to bicker about . It seems, though, you have a real problem accepting the fact not everyone agrees with you. Maybe, just maybe, by accusing me of being smallminded you expose yourself.?

Mighty big of you to take on the thankless job of educating and trying to modify the behaviour of the unwashed hordes. I must admit it's not a job I'd care to tackle. I think I'd just let them have some fun. I
know this whole thing amuses me. I must admit you amuse me as well.

As for your last question; "Do you know what you have signed?" Being awfully presumptuous are we not?? How would you know I've signed anything?? Have you been peeking?? Maybe you saw someone that looked like me signing something? Rest assured that when I have read the fine print, and digested the bs, should I decide to sign I'll check with you first.

Have a good evening. And please don't ever stop being amusing.

Prince George:-"You are expecting them to commit political suicide by openly challenging the leader who sets the agenda.

Why would they? What would be the advantage? Others before them did not, at least not since the Socred days."
------------------------------------------

I'm expecting them to do what they were elected to do, first, and foremost ~ REPRESENT the people of their constituency who put them there.

On the majority of issues that come up in the Legislature or in Parliament most of us are content to let them act as our 'delegates', use their own judgement and follow their Leader and Party's platform.

That's a large part of why we chose them over someone from some other Party at election time.

But at the same time they have to be ever conscious that when their constituents OVERWHELMINGLY indicate their disagreement with some particular thing their Leader wants to do, like implement an HST that was unpromised and for which no mandate had been sought or given, for instance, it's the PEOPLE that have to be listened to first, and obeyed.

Not the Leader, not the Party ~ for they don't pay their salaries. WE DO. And in this regard they are our SERVANTS. NOT our Masters.

If they aren't going to do this, then what is really the use of even having them? So that we can 'pretend' we're a 'democracy'?

There's too much expense for such pretence ~ and if they won't do the job they've been elected to do, maybe they're superfluous to our needs entirely, and we might just as well dispense with them, and the 'democratic' idea as well.

Socredible, I am in agreement with your analysis of the present day malaise as far as politicians are concerned.

What to do? The system is in place and it is legitimate. It is not a dictatorship because during regularly held elections we can express our preferences and turf them out, re-elect them or stay home on voting day.

I read that the hosting of the G8/G20 meetings will cost Canada over one point three billion dollars - mostly for security.

Have we been asked if we are in favour of spending that much money? No. When Canada first indicated it would host the event the government (Harper) stated that it would cost about 179 million.

We have been misled once again. I watched a Conservative minister on TV and he did not find anything wrong with the whole thing, in fact he fully backed his party and his government.

My point is that the problem is national and global.

joeboy,

lots of words and not one answer, that alone answers many questions.

socredible,

nice rant, Ill just address one point for now, you state:

"let the foreigner pay the price"

One would think that you would know as a supposed business man that "foreigners" buying exported products dont pay PST.


As for the rest of your rant, as always you try to avoid things like facts, but thats not beyond you, you have proven over and over again that fear mongering, half truths and down right lies are your moto.

As a small businessman it has been proven that I pay on average 10 TIMES the taxes that the average joe on the street does. I pay my way, I pay my way FAR TO MUCH. That is what the problem is. For the 1st time in I dont know how long a tax law has worked in my favor, I support it. You can continue with your fear mongergering, half truths and down right lies, its all you have proven.

Aw Tommy, I thought I answered all your questions. Too many words you say? Too many words confuse you? That brings to mind that old adage about "can't see the forest for the trees." I guess you can't "see the answers for the words". Oh well.

Well, I wouldn't deny that it is a 'national' and 'global' problem, Prince George. But quite likely the solution to it is going to start first at the 'provincial' and 'local' levels.

It really begins as it's already started, through the anti-HST Petition. With people just saying "No" to this type of further taxation. That's the all-important first step, and we're closer and closer to taking it with each additional name that's added to that Petition. Even if those signing it don't know it, the powers-that-be do. And it's worrying them, and their backers, and the Bankers of their backers.

Already, on average, half our annual incomes are going to governments now in one way or another.

Yet the more that is taken the further we seem to see overall public indebtedness rise. Why? Mismanagement? Yes, there's that, only in a far more perverse way than most of us are even cognizant of.

One level of government pretends it's paying down debt when in reality it's really only downloading it onto the next level below it, and so on. Until it again reaches us, and we're subjected to still further exactions through taxes that are supposed to be able to pay it, but never can.

When we all give ALL our incomes each year to governments will they then be able to provide us with everything we need, let alone want, from THAT much money? The answer to that is all too likely, "No, they will not." Not because what we need and want doesn't exist, or couldn't be created, but because there STILL won't be enough 'money'.

But by the time that point is reached, and the way we're going it won't be long before it is, (unless we call a halt now, and start to reverse the process), it'll be too late for us to do anything about it.

People will be far too conditioned into believing "nothing can be done", that nothing WILL be able to be done. Not because in reality it couldn't be done, but because by then they'll have been completely hypnotised to ignore that reality.

Stompin Tom:-"One would think that you would know as a supposed business man that "foreigners" buying exported products dont pay PST."
-----------------------------------------
Stompin, your lack of reading comprehension is showing again, as well as your ignorance of financial processes. A fatal BC Liberal supporter trait.

PST is NOT added on to the price a foreigner pays, but it is a component of that price nevertheless. Since with PST the amount of PST charged on your purchase of a capital Asset is INCLUDED in the "capital costs" you will recover through annual allocations for depreciation over the expected life of that Asset.

Depreciation expense is a component of PRICE, Stompin. It's how you get your "capital costs" back, including the PST you paid. And the foreigner pays the PRICE.

I was just wondering if the business people who like the HST, knew it was taxable income?

Besides the sales which will be lost to tax by consumers who only have so much money, will you really gain much? No.

November is a whole lot closer than anyone thinks.

As the Zalm said, why spend money on a referendum when there are almost as many signed the petition as voted Liberal in the last election? The answer to that is Campbell doesn't mind wasting our money to boost HIS ego.

In my mind, money well spent if we have to.

Stompin Tom:-"As a small businessman it has been proven that I pay on average 10 TIMES the taxes that the average joe on the street does. I pay my way, I pay my way FAR TO MUCH. That is what the problem is. For the 1st time in I dont know how long a tax law has worked in my favor, I support it. You can continue with your fear mongergering, half truths and down right lies, its all you have proven."
-----------------------------------------

Stompin, I do not disagree that all of us in business pay far too much in taxation. Even though, and this fact seems to always be lost on NDP supporters, it is ultimately our customers who pay the largest part of that taxation. Since every business must charge its taxation into prices, or it can't stay in business.

We make 'product', not 'money'. And the only way we can obtain 'money' is to get it in exchange from someone who has some, including the 'money' we pay in taxation, for that 'product'.

The HST, while it does certainly give us some immediate relief on our capital purchases, and a lesser amount on some operating expenses, will end up costing all of us in business far more than it'll ever save us.

You cannot make a tax shift that affects so many peoples' incomes adversely, as the HST will do, without there being a push for higher incomes to compensate for what's being removed from them additionally in tax.

Prices will NOT fall in BC because of the HST, as Colin Hansen is predicting.

Every business is under the gun to maintain its rate of profit, something which will be under increased pressure as more items are taxed, and Consumers incomes and spending fall as a result.

The pressure for higher wages, even if not immediately successful and vigorously resisted, will be costly. Strikes cost both employers and employees, and what's lost in a protracted one isn't ever gained back. And wage increases, if obtained, will only subsequently have to be 'costed' into prices, raising them still further. This just puts us back into the same, old inflationary spiral we been in so many times before. No one wins, we're all losers, when that happens.

The victims of such a spiral will be many smaller businesses, that will simply go out of business; and some larger ones, who will further consolidate and rationalise to try to cut costs and remain competitive in export markets.

Already some industries are far too concentrated for overall public good, and the HST will only accentuate this process. It will be a precursor to State socialism, and far more difficult business conditions for those of us who survive.

This is not fear-mongering. It is FACT. I don't want to be the one who says to you, "I told you so", when what I've written comes true. I'd gain no pleasure from that at all, for it'll be a disaster that'll affect me as much as you and everyone else. For the positive effect of the immediate small saving you'll get with HST, the overall trade-offs that are far more negative are just not worth it.

Join us in opposing this tax. It's the first step to restoring some sanity to a system that'll sink us all if it's not changed from 'divide and conquer' to one that's fair to all.

socredible,

"Join us in opposing this tax"

Bullpucky!

Your post is nothing more than fear mongering at its best. You take a general theory that you create and you try to exploit it to the max. Nothing more, nothing less. You fail to take into consideration the most important fact in general with regards to this. BC is a mass exporter. When you export more than you import and you do something to make your export business stronger, you in turn help to make your economy stronger.

The sky if falling, the sky is falling, thats all I ever hear from you. If you are indeed a businessman you should be giddy with the opportunity this change is giving you and be working towards using it to build your business, which inturn makes it stronger which allows you to make your employees stronger.

socredible,

I quote you:

"It's the first step to restoring some sanity to a system that'll sink us all if it's not changed from 'divide and conquer' to one that's fair to all."

Thats fair to all? Why is it that removing the HST now would be fair to all? We all acknowledge that this is the 1st tax break for small business in many many years, yet removing it is fair to all? Nope, in my world "all" includes everybody, not just those who benefit.

In your chiken little the sky is falling, the sky is falling, how come you never mention the rebates for the low income earner? You use them for your poster child, yet you never mention this?

Now you claim that small business will infact be on a track to fail because of the HST. Once again fear mongering at its best.

joeboy,

good job on not answering one question, it must be nice to not have a backbone, to not stand for anything, to be nothing more than a troll.

Stompin:-"When you export more than you import and you do something to make your export business stronger, you in turn help to make your economy stronger."

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So if we exported nearly everything we produce, importing or keeping only for ourselves the bare minimum of products necessary to live and enable us to keep doing that, we're all getting 'richer'?

How so, Stompin?

What are we really getting back if we're exporting more than we're importing?

In case the obvious answer is beyond your limited comprehension, that answer is:- some OTHER country's 'money'.

What REAL benefit is that to us, unless we are going to SPEND that 'money' in obtaining THAT COUNTRY'S goods?

Which, by your own admission above, we are NOT. Not if we're 'exporting' MORE to it than we're 'importing' from it, that is.

So, now, just how does that "make our economy stronger" ? In your scenario we're shipping out our 'real wealth' ~ but if we're not getting equivalent alternate 'real wealth' back, which you don't want us to, (not if we're going to maintain a "favourable" balance of trade, that is), isn't this country really getting 'poorer' instead of 'richer'?

The position we are in if we're not spending what we receive that way is somewhat analogous to those stories that appear every so often in the newspapers.

Of the police in some big city finding the emaciated body of some old biddy who'd croaked all alone in an unheated dump of an apartment. Starving herself for years, with not a stitch of clothing to her name that wasn't someone else's cast off rags, living her life in abject poverty, as poor as poor could be ~ and then finding, on going through her stuff, that she had a couple of million bucks in the bank.

And had deposited every dollar she could lay her hands on for years, afraid to spend any of it, because if she did, she'd no longer be RICH. Was she ever RICH, Stompin?

Or is the difference betwean WEALTH and MONEY lost on you, too?

Stomping Tom: I answered all your bloody questions. I've answered more questions than you have any right to ask a stranger. I only answered them, truthfully I might add, because I have a great deal of respect for you. Maybe if you took the time to read what others say rather than just rant about how small minded everyone is if they don't share your view you would understand. Maybe you should get someone you trust to read things and explain them to you. God knows I've typed as slow as I can for you.

Nice to know I'm smallminded etc etc etc.
I'm sure everyone else on this site that you call smallminded etc are equally impressed. You've attacked a lot of people. I'm sure you've gained a ton of support for your position. Keep on ranting. You can't buy entertainment like this.

Stompin:-"Now you claim that small business will in fact be on a track to fail because of the HST. Once again fear mongering at its best."
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Stompin, the BC government has published a List of supposedly all the things that will now be taxable under HST that weren't previously taxable under PST.

I could name six things in my business alone on which I'll now have to charge and collect HST that WEREN'T previously subject to PST, and AREN'T anywhere to be found on their List.

Other people who have small businesses in other fields of endeavour have told me they've noticed the same thing in regards to their businesses.

We simply are not being told the truth by this government. The implications of this increased tax take are going to be far broader that what they're making it out to be.

You don't have to believe me, just wait and see.

Votemike:- "I was just wondering if the business people who like the HST, knew it was taxable income?"
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Thanks for telling us that, Votemike. I think some of them must not realise that. Ottawa doesn't hand out $ 1.6 billion to BC unless it expects to get a whole lot MORE back from us from doing so.

socred,

do you actually believe what you are typing here?

We export products, we are paid in US currency, that is the basic currency for the majority of foreign transactions. Once we have that US currency we have a choice to either buy goods from other countries as imports, or we can use that money to do funny little things like PAY OUR EMPLOYEE's, pay taxes, pay our suppliers, thats what makes our economy work.

You have a very twisted view on things, in your world it is better to sit on our ass and not sell products and allow everbody to go unemployed. In my world we work hard to provide services and sell products so we can have a comfortable living and our employees can have a comfortable living.

You have yourself twisted in such a knot that I dont think you know what the heck your talking about.

I suggest you spend more time with your accountant and you banker, see if maybe they can explain to you how it works because whoever your getting your advice from now doesnt know crap.

votemike, socred,

Your quotes:

"Votemike:- "I was just wondering if the business people who like the HST, knew it was taxable income?"
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Thanks for telling us that, Votemike. I think some of them must not realise that. Ottawa doesn't hand out $ 1.6 billion to BC unless it expects to get a whole lot MORE back from us from doing so."

Taxable income is income you have earned after costs are removed. Previously PST was a dead cost, now it is removed, therefor it is neither positive nor negative on the books. Please explain to me how in the heck you think that is taxable income?

What you guys cant seem to explain, and I have asked you this many many times socred, when I do my books I have tax write offs which are available to me at my discretion, why would it be better for my business to have to pay a dead cost for PST than allow me to operate my business and determine which writeoffs I may use?

Your blinded absurdity is astounding.

Tax write-offs that are available to you "at your discretion"? I don't quite follow you here, Stompin. Do you mean a purchase of a capital asset is "at your discretion"? Well, sure it is.

But regardless, you buy an asset and the depreciation schedules for tax purposes are quite arbitrary, as is the manner in which that depreciation will be calculated. CRA determines how you'll be allowed to do both.

The only other things that I can see that might be "at your discretion" is whether to 'capitalise' maintenance costs, if they were going to extend the life of the asset signifigantly, rather than taking those costs as an 'expense' wholly in the year they were incurred.

And you could, of course, time when you're going to make a future purchase of a capital asset. Move it up to put it into this year if you had high taxable income, say, to claim some depreciation on it in this year, and reduce the tax on that income.

Aside from those, you have some ability to carry a previous year's loss forward or backward through averaging to reduce taxes payable or reclaim ones already paid. I don't really know what else is "at your discretion".

PST is (was) a part of your capital costs when you purchased a taxable business asset. That increases the amount you would have been allowed to depreciate each year against income, because what you paid for the asset was 7% greater. This lowers your reported rate of profit, and taxable income, and Income Tax payable.

With HST you get the 12% you pay in tax back as an Input Tax Credit. The amount you can depreciate is lowered by the amount of this tax saving, and your profit and taxble income rise. And on that you'll pay more in Income Tax.

Ottawa takes the largest share of Corporate Income Tax, BC's portion is far smaller ~ so you're sending most of this additional Income Tax take eastwards, back to where the most seats in Parliament any Party that hopes to form our next Federal government lie. And that's where most, if not all, of it will be spent. While BC citizens dig deeper into their pockets to make up the lost PST that would've been spent here, through paying 7% more on all those additional goods and services not currently PST taxable.

At the level of business you and I are at, we use an accountant mainly to arrange our affairs to legitimately minimise tax. A secondary purpose is to help us make a presentation to our Banker if we need bank financing ~ to show that we're 'credit worthy'. That we'll have enough cash flow to service the loan, and the collateral security is adequate to cover a possible default.

BIG BUSINESS is not nearly so worried about tax as they are about always being able to obtain the MAXIMUM amount of Bank credit possible. So they can at least stay the size they are, and hopefully get much bigger. As they eliminate their smaller, and less credit accessable competitors.

To access further Bank credit they need to be able to increase their rate of profit, and the HST greatly assists them to do this by lowering their capital costs by the amount they would've paid in PST, and then depreciated against Sales income. The Banks and BIG Business will both be the principal beneficiaries of this tax shift.

You don't PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES, pay your taxes, or pay your suppliers, in "US currency", Stompin. You pay them in CANADIAN currency. Which that "US currency" has first purchased from the Bank of Canada, at the going exchange rate.

It's too bad that all those things WEREN'T paid for "directly" in US, or any other countries receiving our goods own national currencies. Then people like you might finally be able to see just what current global "trade" REALLY is. Maybe.

socred,

so in your infinite wisdom you are trying to tell me that I am better off having to pay PST and use it as a write off than I am to not have to pay pst, save the 7% and use that savings as I see fit to work with my business?


Are you for real? As I have said before, do you really believe what you write?

Let me ask you this very simple question.

We work to make a profit. If we are profitable we can afford to pay our employee's more. Does the HST make our business's potentially more profitable?

Frankly socred your line of thought pretty much takes away any credibility you may have built up, your grasping at straws and you know it.

Tax write offs at my discretion?

That means I control where I spend my money, I determine what is best for my business.

capital assets - I use the savings to purchase new equipment to build my business stronger

repair and maintenance - I spend money to make my current equipment better, a 100% write off and the strategy most often used

wages. Have you ever thought about this? I can give my employee's a bonus or wage increase, this reduces my tax output and helps them if we are having a good year, this is something we have done numerous times in the past.

exploration and development for my business. I can spend money to build and expand my business in more ways than one, I dont have to buy items, I can explore and develop new lines of revenue.

These are just a few of the many options out there. I can choose to simply pay the tax on the profit as it is not 100% tax on the 7% savings.

No matter what, any time I can control the avenue my business has to take, it is better. With the PST I have no control.

"With the PST I have no control."
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Good luck in catching up to the "Big Boys", Stompin. You'll need it. Especially when you're determined to make it easier for them to eliminate you.

socred,

you have no idea what my business is, your also very naive.

I do believe one thing though, you firmly believe in fear mongering, hell, just look at you last message to me.

As I have said about 30 times to you, better start getting better advice, or atleast some advice, your views on business and how to run them are very skewed.

Time, as it's said, will tell whether I'm 'fear-mongering' or correct, Stompin. I am patient, and if my fears prove to be groundless, we'll soon see. I wouldn't be devastated, or even disappointed, if they do.

Regardless, when half a million people openly sign their names to a Petition to rescind a tax, most because they don't want the kind of further hit on their income it will bring, while some others, who are admittedly ambivalent about this kind of taxation itself, but signed simply because of their objections to the way it was introduced, they've put THEIR fears aside.

They've made up their own minds that they don't want the HST as it currently is, and are prepared to openly say so. And more are joining them daily, even with the target numbers set already achieved. Seeking out places where they can sign, without even waiting to be canvassed.

They've heard the arguments against it, and those for it. And they're just not buying the latter. To them, and me, too, the price is just too high.

And whether they're for it, or against it, if their decision has been based on "mis-information", the mis-information has certainly not been all one sided.

As I said earlier, in my own business there are at least six things not now taxable under PST that will be taxed under HST ~ not the additional ones charged and then recovered by the business as Input Tax Credits ~ but things on which the PUBLIC will be charged 7% more come July 1st. And none of those six are on the Government's published List. And other business-owner customers I've talked with have noticed similar ommissions in their businesses. We have NOT been told the 'whole truth' by those in BC Liberal- dom who accuse US of spreading mis-information.

All this could have been avoided by the BC Liberals bringing the proposal for a HST to the Legislature first, and discussing it there. Where the reasons "for" it could be thoroughly examined and debated, and it's 'pro' and 'con' effects on businesses and consumers established.

Instead of doing that, we have a closed door deal between the Federal and Provincial Finance Ministries, and enabling Federal legislation enacted "at the request" of the BC Government.

Almost as if it was something in the manner of the Canadian Government asking the British Government to make some amendment to the BNA Act, Canada's Constitution, before it was repatriated.

Something in recent times that the British Government wouldn't even likely debate, but just do. As a "courtesy" of one government to another. Only it ISN'T the same. For this is enacting taxation WITHOUT representation of the PEOPLE of BC. Whose duly elected Legislature has had its proper purpose usurped by this process.

This alone should be reason enough to be wary of this tax. Why couldn't the proper process be followed? If it truly is so "good" for British Columbia, as the Liberal heirarchy proclaims, then why not make the case for it honestly and openly in the Legislature? Shouldn't truly good ends always be capable of attainment by good means?