This is a bunch of unadulterated BS. More later.

They claim this has to be "public-private partnerships"

Maybe I missed something, but all I am seeing is all the new developments are government funded with no new business at all. Just were is the business investment?

So we offer new business the sweetheart deal of being tax free for 40 years to get them to spend some money, but who pays the 100 million or so the preliminary projects are going to cost?

I see a few guys buying up all the lots then selling them to the City for a profit. McLaren pulled the wool over Daper Dan once, I guess he thinks he should do it again.

you know, I don't care if you guys think this is BS or whatever, I just want to live in a city that I can be proud of and enjoy it's beauty...just let it happen!

"Just were is the business investment"

- Public market and artists loft -> private people running businesses in that space
- Multi-use development -> not sure what that entails
- Wood Innovation Centre -> government funded, will hopefully be a catalyst for private sector investment into new technologies instead of the same old dimensional wood we've been pumping out for decades
- Student housing -> a few hundered customers going to school and living downtown just waiting to be served by the private sector (entertainment, food services, retail, etc.)
- Expo building -> not sure what that entails
- PAC -> a good facility for PG IMHO and one that could certainly draw people to spend money at other private sector establishments (hotels, restaurants, etc.)
- Parking building -> probably needed given the scope of the project
- Access to trails -> great little addition IMHO
- Mixed use development -> not sure what this entails
- Seniors housing -> Can anyone argue that we don't need more seniors housing? Again, more customers in the downtown core to take advantage of private sector offerings
- The health building -> being occupied by private businessed

No doubt this is a very ambitious proposal and who knows if it can come to fruition or receive funding. If it can, you can almost bet the bank that a good portion of the dough will come from project reserves that would be spent SOMEWHERE, if not in PG. I'd rather take those dollars than have them go to Kelowna, Kamloops or some othe city thank you very much.

I also like the theme of adding more post secondary facilities here. It helps build upon the cluster we're already established in those regards. Once we have those things it usually ensures a relatively consistent source of economic activity (at least compared to a pulp mill), which is exactly what we need to help diversify the economy.

I'm not sure if there is enough out to really tell me if I approve of the plan or not, but at least it appears as though people are thinking and thinking big. That's unusual for this town and perhaps that's one reason why there will be some level of discomfort with it.

Palopu has it right.
No wonder all these people have resigned from the DBIA.

DBIA, doesn't that stand for downtown BUSINESS improvement association?

What does any of this have to do with business improvement?

Sounds more like they are a taxpayer dollar spending association.

"What does any of this have to do with business improvement"

They would contribute to the development of a downtown core that would house people, workers and tourists, all of whom could be catered to by business.

Put another way, until there is more downtown to bring people in, there will be no hope for business to flourish.

This would be the death of the University.

They want to hijack the successes at the university to subsidize their private land development plans... and subsidize the rest with multi million dollar city tax payer investments made up increasingly from the property tax of home owners in other parts of the city.

Last I heard we would have a referendum on a PAC... who says the lowest flood plain point in the city is appropriate for that kind of investment (why not the golf lands as the alternative?)... notice they want the city to buy up all the flood plain lots to invest city tax payer dollars to subsidize their realestate plans that they wish to have a 40-year tax holiday from.

One has to wonder if this is an April fools joke, or if not what is going on with their thinking. Proof that the MyPG project wasn't about planning PG's future....

AIMHO

It is total BS. Finally!!!!

Starting to look like a city!!

BS = Building Strategy.

Oh .... as opposed to TTS ....

Twiddlin' Thumbs Strategy ... :-)

The first and foremost thing we have to look at is the FACT that Prince George is NOT growing. In fact the population has decreased significantly over the past 10 years.

We have a lot of hustle and bustle because of the people who come to town from outlying areas like Vanderhoof, Burns Lake, etc; to shop, etc, however by Sunday night they are gone, and guess what. They dont pay any taxes.

So where do we get the people to use the buildings that are proposed. That is the question. At best we can steal these people from other places in the City and that is exactly what will happen. This is another prime example of what is referred to as **Churning** tear down a usable building like the Playhouse Theatre and replace it with a Performing Arts Centre, and call it growth. What a bunch of crap.

1. Why would you build housing for UNBC students in the downtown area when you already have empty students apartments at the University?

2. With the enrollments at the University remaining static or decreasing in the past few years, where do you propose to get new students from to use these apartments. The forecast for the next ten years for the Pr George Regional District is a continuing decline in Student Enrolments, and Graduates, so it would follow that the University numbers will not change.

3. When you build a performing Arts Centre you will end up tearing down the Playhouse Theatre, and discontinue using Vanier Hall, plus you have the possibility of Theatre Northwest and Judy Russell dance studio moving into the PAC, and as a result you could end up with 3 empty buildings, and one torn down building, plus the unused space at the Civic Centre.

4. The term Wood Innovation Centre means NOTHING. It is just a stupid phrase to describe a building. In the building you will have a bunch of Government employees, and students looking at a piece of wood, and humming and hawing, and generally pretending to be astute.

5. Rumour has it that IPG would move into the Wood Innovation Building, and that the Tourist Bureau is looking for new digs. Does this mean that the CN Building that IPG purchased with taxpayer money is going to sit empty, along with all the other empty buildings that the City owns??

6. The Commonwealth Health Centre is already a work in progress. (Anyone notice that all the studs in this building are metal) I suspect that the Senior Housing next to the Health Centre, would be an attempt to get the Seniors health business.

7.Access to Riverfront Heritage trail means nothing.

8. Farmers Market has been there for years, so it is nothing new.

So at the end of the day you will pull business and students out of one area, and relocate them in another area, and somehow this will be discribed as **smart growth**

Have a nice day.

Seems to me this is the same Heather Oland that was the planner that took the idea of a ring road that was originally an idea to bring industry to the periphery outside of the city airshed... and took that idea and turned it into a Boundary Road to service a lot of formerly worthless farm land converted into very lucrative industrial land overlooking the city from the airport... forcing future generations of inner city congestion in the foreseeable future. PG will continue to be a city that runs its main highway through the busiest part of the city.

Because of this Boundary Road development we will likely never see a proper industrial ring road for PG in the next thirty years... it will cost the city of PG $30+ million for Boundary Road when we have existing land available in the BCR site and the Old Carriboo Highway.

The triple PPP partners with the city made very good on that 'realestate deal' though... and that is the important thing irrespective of the fact they having not got a business plan that involves to date a single actual development from the private sector associated with that multi million dollar pie in the sky planning and expenditure of our home taxes.

Seems me we should be working with our existing strengths and building on those to raise all ships, and not trying to engineer a nebulous strength from theory using tax dollars to subsidize the private 'realestate partners' in a triple PPP process that has no public accountability.

We need to clarify what our tax dollars on our homes can be used for by our municipal governments or the insiders will not rest until they have financed all their dreams from our wish to keep our homes.

NMG if you want to finance a downtown than there should be a donation cup that goes around... but for others this is nothing more than a plan to have tax payers (mostly home owners) finance someone else's realestate dreams. That should not be acceptable considering some people live on fixed incomes and have no choice to opt out from their property taxes. If they want to use tax dollars for this kind of planning that involves no new business then they should fund it with a more voluntary form of taxation or from the businesses themselves (but they want a 40-year tax holiday and yet their plan requires significant tax dollar expenditures).

Sure any plan sounds great... who is going to pay for it though. We are naive as a city if we allow our city council to move ahead on this.

No more tax payers monies , no tax holidays. If these grandiose pipe dreams are so doable then let the great and all wonderful free enterprisers build their edifices.
If they turn out good people will go; if not then they took not the risk and can learn from their mistakes. NOT the taxpayers!
My plan for the downtown would be to bulldoze it and put in a giant carnival for all the clowns down there in city hall.

Funny... they want the wood innovation center to anchor their 'realestate plans' and yet the same people are using steel studs for their own construction a few blocks away... it appears the primary motivation for the 'wood innovation center' is realestate location and not university integration of research.

Once this plan is complete we can change our name to The Commonwealth of Prince George as the taxes will be split down the middle. Dan M will continue to pull the strings of the puppets in city hall.

Downtown looked better when we had the Canada hotel, the Macdonald, The Columbus
etc etc etc. It had character and characters. Recommend bulldoze and pave or not.

Palopu has dusted off his standard response and is submitting it for the umpteenth time.

Waht he seems to forget is that during this contraction in population over teh last two decades we have had:
- a total increase in retail square footage made up of such places as:
+ Parkwood expansion
+ Costco
+ Future Shop
+ JSK
+ Winners
+ retail/office to replace Yellowhead Inn
+ WalMart
+ WalMart expansion
+ Home Depot
+ six free standing pods equal in total to the size of WalMart
+ Canadian Tire - significant size increase
+ Riverview? Paza (Ferry Avenue)
+ Pine Centre - additional 3 external pods
+ total rebuild of the CH Plaza
+ "sprucing up" of Spruceland
+ some small additions to north of Hart Shpping Plaza (sorry Eagleone, the Hart has not been the primary growth area since it is not centrally located and that will continue to be a problem for some time)

At the same time the College has expanded space while continuing to have the same number of students despite a steady frceline in local feeder secondary graduates and the UNBC has appeared from nothing to some 3,500 local FTE which has effectively doubled the capacity of post secondary education in PG. The pent up demand seems, however, to have been met so that we are no working at the same level of service as most other places in Canada. There is a considerable increase in the demand for post grad seats/programs as the excellent reputation of the UNBC has become known. While that is on a small base, it is, nevertheless, a growth area.

If you want to compare to a University that has more or less matured and is located in a similar climate and remote geographic area as Prince George and has roughly the same catchment population, look at Lakehead University in Thunder Bay.

Founded in 1946 it now has over 7,000 undergraduates and over 600 graduate students. So, we have a long way to go to get the service level that Thunder Bay has. The difference that 50 years of addtional experience brings.

Confederation College in Thunder Bay has about the same number of studetns as CNC, 3,200 FTE.

The same as Prince George, it has dropped in population since the 1996 census.

So, Palopu, tear up those old papers you have and put your thinking cap on to find out why waht is happening is different than your theory as to what should be happening.

When you have figured it out, get back to us with your new found revelations as to why your imaginary world does not match the real world that has been unfolding in front of your very eyes.

With all that, is it any wonder why some of the population is ticked off that the traditional heart of the City is stressed and several are interested in letting it die rather than following the path virtually ever other rational City has done which is taking steps to revive it much the same as CH Plaza has done.

suggestions that we all watch the McLaren "gang" closely, very closely....is good advice I think.

Blah Blah Blah been going on far too long, give it up already.

Hey, that is the prupose of this site and other places for input.

People enjoy blah, blah, blahing. That is their social activity. Are you telling others what they should do for their social enjoyment? Are you bullying? :-)

Conflict of interest? These "new" ideas look like Commonwealth's "dreams" and now they have a new way to pay for them with DBIA money.

The concept looks great but I don't think a few developments scattered throughout downtown is going "revive" PG.

It would be nice to see a whole entire street redeveloped - not just new sidewalks and planters - but a fresh look. Start from scratch - move the buildings back off the sidewalks and make the streets feel more open.

People need a reason again to park their cars and walk the streets - not park at their destination, go in and do their business and then get in their vehicle and leave.

New construction isn't going to fix the main problem why people don't go downtown - they don't feel safe.

Notice how the PAC is included in the plan. Any bets it may be the first built. I call all this planning, PAC creep.

Gus. How many times do you have to be told how things work before you get the picture. Your list if expansions are exactly what I am talking about **churning**. Lets take a look at some of the business's that have closed down over the same period that these new ones came on line.

1. SS Kresge
2. Woodwards Grocery and Department Store
3. T. Eaton Co.
4. Woolco
5 Woodwards
6 Mccleods
7. Safeco
8. Morrison Mens Wear
9. Kelly Douglas Warehouse(Fruit/Veg/Groc
10.Slade and Stewart Warehouse (Fruit&Veg)
11.W H Malkin Warehouse (Fruit/Veg/Groc
12 Safeway Grocerie Stores
13. Extra Foods Grocery Pine Centre Mall
14. Thunderbird Electric
15. Mcinnis Building Supplies Ist Avenue
16 TimberMart on the Hart
17 Auto Magic Continental Way
18 Woodland Lumber BCRail Industrial Park
19 Netherlands Overseas Mills
20 Rustad Bros Sawmill
21 Winton Global Lumber Co.,
22 Theatres in Ramada Hotel Building
23 Probably 20 Schools in the District.
24 Woolworths

I could go on but you get my drift. Most of these companies went broke because of the large retail companies that moved into town like Walmart, Cdn Tire, Home Depot, etc.

At the end of the day you have the same or smaller population and they are buying their product from different stores in different locations, however there is no real change in the amount of business being done in the City, with the probable exception of out of town shoppers from the West.

So, so much for your analysis.

As far as the University goes you as usual are living in a dream world. You refuse to understand that from 100 Mile House to Ft St John, to Prince Rupert, Kitimat, the whole North West Central Interior has a population of 305,000 people. With declining population, school enrolments, graduates, etc; there will be a huge problem getting students for this University. Especially when they can go to Kamloops, Kelowna, Victoria, UNBC, Simon Fraser etc; etc; etc;

It wasnt that long ago that the University of Nelson was shut down, mainly because of a lack of students.

Time you moved into the real world Gus and looked around you. Last High Rise built in Prince George was about 1985 that would be the old Westel (BC Rail Building) on 2nd and Victoria. Now called KPMG. With very few exceptions the only construction of any kind going on in this area is Government funded, and basically thats all you have for the new Downtown plan.

Once all this Government crap is built then whats your plan.

Give me some real facts, about who will be coming to town to provide new industry and new jobs. Not the old BS story about the ***Transportation Corridor*** or the **Boundry Road Cut Off** of the Air Cargo at the Airport, or the CN Container Yard. Those stories are wearing a little thin, and they havent produced one bloody job.

We wait with bated breath for your elucidation on the economic future of Prince George.

I’m with you Palopu. Gus appears to have the same vision as the people at City Hall. They will eventually ruin what’s left of our City for lack of a realistic vision with thier feet on the ground. The die has been cast with the development along Highway #16, There was no plan only the supply of more tax dollars for the crew at city hall to blow on airy fairy ideas.

And Palopu is correct when he tells us we need a positive growth in population not what has been happening, the population is shrinking

And here’s the real problem where will the money come from for development. There are many holes in the plan when it comes to financing. This socialist idea of using tax dollars for development only postpones the disaster that is yet to come.. When government starts to invest in the economy it skews the market trend. The investment has to be done by private development on demand basis.
Cheers
PS. I guess Gus loves the PAC. But I dont think its playing the right tune for the tax payers.

University of Thunder Bay is actually about Half the price of UNBC.
I will tell you when i am done at CNC I will not be able to finish my studies at UNBC because i cannot afford 10,000 a year for only tuition with or with out a loan.
so. the university here is for people to want close to $100,000 in debt when they are done, you think they will stay here?
do you think they could make enough money in this town to pay off loans and pay for tax breaks for downtown(if they are not buddies with the mayor)

Westel Building was built in 1995 I believe.

Some of the businesses in the above list were closed because of situations unrelated with the population or economy of Prince George.

Labour disputes or corporate restructuring were the reasons behind some of the closures. Some were re-branded or bought up by larger chains.

Maybe Palpou is right. We should all just give up. Let's do nothing. Let the downtown continue as is. She seems to always want things the way they were. There was nothing wrong with the wooden sidewalks- just paint them.

@Boudicca; if you think that $10,000 per year for a 4 year degree equals $100,000 debt you may want to reconsider a high-school math course while still at CNC.

That said, I agree that UNBC--and university in general--is quite expensive.

Geez Palopu, many of the businesses you named are but a distant memory. Truth be told, I don't even recognize some of them and I've lived here my entire life. Maybe that's an indication of the times you long for. If so, I can understand why change is so hard for you to support or accept.

As an aside, please show me a desirable city anywhere in Canada that has not received some form of government funding along the way as a means to assist with development and growth.

If we want to grow PG and remain competitive, we need to do things exactly like what is being proposed. Results and inaction are not compatible.

I threw in these business from the top of my head, and yes some of them are old, however many of them are not. In any event it makes little difference, my point is that the new business basically replaces the old business, and the population remains the same so there is little or no new revenue for business, except what is gleaned from outlying areas like MacKenzie or Vanderhoof Burns Lake.

The point is we need new business investments and new jobs. The Government projects will only create jobs until the construction is completed. Then we have more Government workers but nothing else.

All I am asking for is someone, somewhere, to give us some concrete information in regards to what type of industry is going to locate here, when will it happen, and how many jobs will it create. I dont expect any definitive answers, however I am asking the question.

Reb2b. For Gods sake dont mention wooden sidewalks, or they will start building them out of beetle killed timber. Maybe the Wood Innovation Centre can come up with a Wooden Sidewalk that we culd develop and sell around the world.

The role of the city is to provide infrastructure... not to be involved in realestate transactions with public dollars, and planning for building new buildings that have never been approved of by the citizens in a vote.

If the city wants to invest in the downtown, then they can build nicer streets, facilitate better services to existing buildings, add some garbage cans and park benches, plant trees, widen sidewalks... things we as city home owners expect our tax dollars to be spent on. Speculating on realestate developments with tax payer dollars is not one of the things the home owner expect their property taxes to be spent on.

Everyone needs a home and not everyone keeps pace with 4-5% annual inflation that the government employees enjoy... most are on fixed incomes. It is entirely inappropriate to be using property tax dollars to speculate on realestate in a town that is shrinking in size. We need people that understand this first and foremost running in the next municipal election.

Eagleone - death to the university - you must be one of the many in this town that wears blinders. You should go far away, far, far away..............I can't wait for the action to start and things to be happening in PG. If all you want is Walmart then move to College Heights, or are you already there? All this is the most positive thing to happen in PG for a long time and people like you are NOT going to spoil it! There are some of us who think forward as opposed to being stagnant!

Only one simple question...who do they think is gong to pay for this....I am not interesting in buying in...

Just wondering if anyone knows if the 3 recently vacated chairs on the Board of Directors for the DBIA have been filled yet?
TIA

If you shop there, if you work there, if you live there, if you set foot in it, you are contributing. In fact, you are even contributing if you bank at anything other than a BOM, get your medical services at the hospital, go to the movies, etc. etc.