They take money from infrastructure to pay for things like winter games, higher management salaries and pensions, IPG ($3 million dollar a year waste), more consultants, and the list is endless... then when they can't pay for the infrastructure they back door a 15% rate increase.

Keep note of the ones voting for this folks... they like your wallet and will go after it as long as they possibly can because you are hostage to them in your own home.

The idea that we need water meters in this city will be the thing that sees me leave. I absolutely refuse to have a water meter put on my house. They will need a warrant to enter my property.

It is completely uncalled for. We have just had the driest summer ever and we don't have water shortage... we have one of the largest aquifers in the world under that gravel base in the bowl replenished consistently by two very large rivers... the downtown is floating on a water reservoir only meters below the surface... the newest pump station has capacity for a city of 800,000... we have no water shortage in PG, only water scare by bureaucrats who have a vested interest in collecting more taxes.

Its all about taxing the guy that wants to water his lawn, and we will have a lot of brown dead lawns in this town once the water meters come into effect.

The people at city hall will think of any way they can to tax you more for owning your home. They have their own priorities and those have nothing to do with running a cost effective organization to provide essential services. You are given no choice, but to pay more taxes as long as the above continue to get reelected.

This is hard news. Inflation is killing some of us. Just this year alone with the horse shit tax and now this? I will have to get a second job just to cover taxes.

"it is expected there would be a 15% reduction in water usage"

I am not exactly sure what that accomplishes.

It still means the same number of plastic or metal fittings, the same length of pipe, the same size of pipe unless they want to bet on that reduction in water usage and see people complaining because they cannot provide the water pressure to the shower heads on the top floor of the higher houses we are now building. And what are the meters and their upkeep going to cost? And who is going to chose the meters they will use. Hopefully not the same individual who selected the plastic fittings that are proving to be another poor decision and increased cost.

Who is accountable for that sort of mistake anyway? I know who gets to pay for it, that is easy to figure out. But who is going to take the fall for it at the Hall? Time someone did!

I understand some of this might be because of the Horse Shit Tax. Another thing province has not told us.

I am getting tired of the lack of transparency in this entire system - feds, province, city. All cut from the same cloth.

I assume not only Munoz was absent. Or did Councillor Frizzell resign?

The question I have is whether this increase will be to Council what the HST is to the BCLiberals.

So where and when do we find out exactly what this city and its taxpayers are facing with respect to these "plastic fittings"?

Is this the same problem as defined in this article from last year?

Headline = Fixing plastic water lines could cost $100 million
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/683233

"Its all about taxing the guy that wants to water his lawn, and we will have a lot of brown dead lawns in this town once the water meters come into effect."

Including mine. But it won't make any difference! When the usage goes down, the rate will go up! The less water you use the more it will cost per cubic meter! Somehow they have to bring in the money!

How about a monthly connection charge? Even when your usage is zero (you are away on vacation for a month) you will pay 20 bucks + HST!

For anything used add a delivery charge, HST, a green fee and a water disposal fee!
How about a chlorine and fluoride fee?

Pretty soon people will start collecting rain water in buckets and use that for flushing their toilets!

They used to nickel and dime people to death - now it is done with ten and twenty dollar bills!

You are quite correct Eagleone.... it appears that there is a huge amount of shuffling happening on your city books... and the easiest solution is to increase taxes.

Further, water meters are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY in your town... a complete and incidious waste of tax dollars... an agenda fuelled by frothing-at-the-mouth greed... not logic !!! Scary stuff, but your city admin will shoooooveeee it down your throats !!! "Don't chew... just swallow.."

Almost all plastic piping problems in PG town are on the homeowner side of the property... it was rarely used on the city side... you can thank your money hungry housebuilders and their plumbers for that gift.... good luck getting any traction from them... funny how material costs went down with "new" products, but house costs went up at the same time !!

The City solution will be another layer of taxation slipped into place to cover someone's decision to ignore advice and information from people who actually knew what they were talking about when those topics came up. "I told you so" just doesn't make one feel any better... Sorry.

And don't fret about someone taking the fall .... not gonna happen... just like the other thousand mistakes. They haven't gotten to the bottom of the money pit into which the taxpayer keeps dumping his/her silly amounts of coin.... it just never stops !!!

Dammit... and Prince George was such a nice place to live at one time.


V.

Hey.... not a bad tag line...

" City of XXXXX, a city of a thousand mistakes... and still counting !!!

Come and join us... move here... bring money !! We can't live with YOU !! "


:-)


V.

And this idiot council wants to build a new RCMP building 35-40 million and a performing arts center another $30 million. And you think taxes are high now. Problem is people have short memories when voting time comes. Does BASSERMAN ever vote against anything that will not take money from tax payers?

Like I said before, Prince George has one of the highest taxes in BC aside from the lower mainland. 15% increase is robbery and it still will not be enough. You watch they will raise the house tax and garbage tax again as well. 5 years in a row compounded tax increases coming. My parents looking for a home in the south were shocked at how much lower house taxes were and we are talking the area where they say "Sunshine Tax". House owners in PG are being held hostage to pay for everyone who lives here and worse yet the constant wage increases at city hall. The mayor here makes much more as well than most other cities of its size.
People are leaving here, the population is dropping and they still do not get it. The citizens of PG better start reigning in the cities spending habits and you better start now. Start fighting against wage increases! Prince George is 111 MILLION dollars in debt for God sakes. Wages should be frozen until the books are in the black again if that is even possible.

I am getting tired of paying more and more.
Why does city not just count, how many live in a house.
I live alone and have to pay the same like across from me, where they built these big mansions with illegal suites, living in there with 10 or more, watering the small front lawn 7 days a week with !!!!!!!!!!!
We have to pay for garbage, even if we don't need it. I grow up in Europe where you have to recycle. Here nobody will do it. Many of our friends say, they don't recycle, for they have to pay for the garbage can anyways. I tried to get rid of my garbage can, but I was told, I still have to pay for it. So now I throw garden weeds or whatever in there and put it every 4 to 5 weeks on the road. Before I always brought it to the City garbage yard.

The taxes are going up and up as well and we do not get a better service. Our road hardly never sees a snow plough in winter, I guess last winter it was here 3 or 4 times.
But it seems the easiest way, just to grab into the home owners pocket to get more and more. It is just like paying a monthly rent to City now.
For me it is getting unaffordable to live any longer in the City and it is time, to move out of city limits.

I am getting tired of paying more and more.
Why does city not just count, how many live in a house.
I live alone and have to pay the same like across from me, where they built these big mansions with illegal suites, living in there with 10 or more, watering the small front lawn 7 days a week with !!!!!!!!!!!
We have to pay for garbage, even if we don't need it. I grow up in Europe where you have to recycle. Here nobody will do it. Many of our friends say, they don't recycle, for they have to pay for the garbage can anyways. I tried to get rid of my garbage can, but I was told, I still have to pay for it. So now I throw garden weeds or whatever in there and put it every 4 to 5 weeks on the road. Before I always brought it to the City garbage yard.

The taxes are going up and up as well and we do not get a better service. Our road hardly never sees a snow plough in winter, I guess last winter it was here 3 or 4 times.
But it seems the easiest way, just to grab into the home owners pocket to get more and more. It is just like paying a monthly rent to City now.
For me it is getting unaffordable to live any longer in the City and it is time, to move out of city limits.

It's easy folks. Check out MLS.com and search the city you think is way better off for comparable listings to what you currently have in PG. I don't want to hear how the $200K Kelowna crack shack pays less in property taxes than the $200K home in College Heights. Let's compare the $350K Westgate home to an EQUIVALENT home in Kelowna and see how the property taxes fall out. My guess is the average joe living in Westgate wouldn't even get approved for a mortgage if he were looking at that EQUIVALENT home in Kelowna . . .

Operations Manager Bill Gaal says the trouble with the plastic fittings are two fold as they make no noise when they break down, meaning the ground is saturated before a leak is found "That makes it very very expensive when we have to make a repair."
Like most of the work that City does is like the paving job that was done on Ospicka it only lasted a couple of years .

Now they want to install water meters to reduce use by the taxpayer and in the ,mean time water is gushing from the mains because they cant keep up with the repairs. This sounds like the garbage collection story when they lied to us on how it would reduce the cost of garbage collection. And each year the cost increases

We already pay the highest property tax in BC. Its time that we started to look at why?. And the first place should be at the incompetence at City Hall. Not only should the City Manager go but it looks like the Operations Manager should go with him.
Cheers

The foothills water line that is mention is another disaster. It took the contractor an entire summer to install this water line and when it was complete they had to dig up sections to repair the leaks. This was 14 inch cast iron pipe they used not plastic. Be interesting to know how much water this line leaks today.

The line was apparently installed to cover another pink elephant to supply more water for College Heights as someone has pointed the monster homes and of course the new shopping area that has destroyed the down town.
Cheers

"My parents looking for a home in the south were shocked at how much lower house taxes were"

If they have a $250,000 home here and are looking to invest the same amount in a home there, the home will be somewhat smaller or older and will have less tax because it will no longer be an average house, such as the 250,000 one is, but a below average house.

That is the case for Vernon, Penticton and big time for Kelowna. Any of the other smaller communities, it will start to be an average house again, and taxes will be lower because the communities are too small to afford the amenities we have in larger cities.

I was just outside.
It is raining and the people across the street in these big monster houses with all these illegal suites still have the water sprinkler going for a small frontlawn.
So it is no wonder, that City wants us all to pay more.
They should go around and check first the lawns, before they install the meter. Who ever has a green lawn in a dry summer should get a water meter.
What a waste of drinking water, that is sickening!!!!

Gus, why don’t you tell us like in the past that taxes we in PG are just right for us. Like a lot of your posts you try to confuse the readers.. And them one you have just given us sounds more like political rhetoric.

It doesn’t matter how old or how new a home is the mill rate will be them same. The fact is that a big house in PG pays more taxes then a big house in Kamloops. A small house in PG will pay less taxes. It’s the percentage by which our taxes have been increased every year that has put PG at the head of the pack when it comes tax time when our taxes are compared with other cities with the approximate population that we have,

Some of us have a respect for others that post on this site. We like to be brief and to the point without using long winded analogies that generally confuse the issues at hand. That is the domain of our politicians that try scheme and baffle us.

You took a shot at me yesterday Gus, today its my turn. When I play my CD I play it to be entertaining not because I want to run for council in the next civic election
Cheers

For years I,ve paid city taxes without the benifits that homeowners in the bowl get. We have no sewer or water supplied by the city but we live within the city limits. It's starting to look like this may be a good thing as I won't have to pay these latest increases or have a water meter installed. I,m betting that the governments will find another way to get some more of my pension.

That is the case for Vernon, Penticton and big time for Kelowna. Any of the other smaller communities, it will start to be an average house again, and taxes will be lower because the communities are too small to afford the amenities we have in larger cities.
Gus, what are the amenities, that cost me every month $ 200?

I think the increase is to pay for the new meters because the new meters won't be free.

I thought a few years ago voters made clear to city hall we did not want meters and they went away with their plans... turns out democracy is a complete farce because this is clearly the back door to their water meter plans and they can't even come clean with it when they raise the taxes to pay for it.

People of PG will have no vote on the issue just a back hoe showing up someday to dig up your yard so they can start billing you by the liter.

Once they got you on a meter you can be guaranteed the next surprise will be the 'need' to privatize the water infrastructure in the city and we will be held hostage to our water usage by some other greedy foreign multinational collecting the end user fees.

This bloody City has so many goofy projects on the go that no one knows where to start.

1. $48 Million Police Station
2. $49/50 Million Performing Arts Centre
3. Goofy/Stupid/Not Needed/Boundry Road
4. Waste of $7 Million on the River Road paving project.
5. Goofy/Stupid/Not Needed/Community Energy Plan. $15 Million. Federal and City money.
6. Goofy/Stupid/Not Needed water meters.

Where does it all end. Who the hell is running the City?????

We are being run by a New Mayor, 4 old councillors, and 4 new councillors, none of which have any real experience. Our City Manager is a transfer from the Regional District. What overall experience has he got???

We are paying huge salaries to these people at City Hall but we dont seem to be getting any BANG FOR OUR BUCK. To them it is all a game.

Murray Krause is the Chair of the Finance and Audit Commitee. With all due respect to Murray I suspect that he would have trouble balancing his own budget let alone the Citys.

We need to get the attention of the Mayor and Council, and give them the message that its time to become innovative, and to quit solving their problems by spending our money.

I hate the idea that we have to form Citizens groups, to go after our elected representatives to do the job that we elected them to do. This to me seems to be insane.

City personel who make major blunders, such as the garbage disposal fiasco, the piss poor paving program, the poor snow removal plan, etc; etc; should be fired. Pure and simple FIRED. Why should we continue to pay these dudes in excess of $100,000.00 per year for a job NOT WELL DONE????.

I think that very soon we will have to form a Citizens tax revolt group. This group will have to get enough money to take the City to court for incompetance if necessary. Or we could have a group of one or two thousand people who refuse to pay their taxes, and force the City to deal with us.

As it is, if we do nothing, then we are going to get more of the same.

Retired ... You wrote: "It doesn’t matter how old or how new a home is the mill rate will be them same."

Why bring the mill rate into it? You and I and everyone else pay taxes in Canuck bucks, not mills.

For some reason or other the concept of mill rate is understood by even less than percent by people and there are a heck of a lot of people in this world who fail to understand percent.

They go bonkers when a $10 item is reduced by 50% for a week and can be bought for $5. Then, when the week is over the price goes back up by 200% instead of 50%. They think that is highway robbery. Until they walk into the store and find that the item is selling for $10 again.
------------------------------

Let's keep it simple. A taxable 50 ft x 120 ft property with a 1,200 sf finished area split level single detached home is valued at $300,000 in community A. The community needs to collect $3,000 in order to provide annual services for the home owner. The mill rate ($/$1,000 assessment) is set at 0.01. $300,000 x 0.01 = $3,000.

In another community, B, where the house is in a nice sunny climate and overlooks a lake with orchards and a mission in the distance, the same house is valued at $600,000. But to service the owner with community services, it also costs $3,000 for the house.

The mill rate is set at half the rate for community B, 0.05. $600,000 x 0.05 = $3,000.

So, what you could say about the two communities with respect to taxes is that the (mill) rate of taxation for the value of the house is lower in B than in A.

You would be correct. But you are paying the same actual tax for the size of house/property and you are paying twice as much to buy that same property. So just think, if you owned the house in community A without a mortgage, and you had to put a mortgage of $300,000 onto the house in community B, your tax would be the same, but you would be paying 5%+ interest on $300,000 which = roughly $15,000 per year without paying down the principle yet. So, same money to the city, and $15,000 to the bank. But no one complains too much about that, right? Why? Because the value of the house is going up at 7% a year or $600,000 x 7% = $42,000, so everyone is a happy camper …… :-)

Until too many people start doing that. LOL

End result? You cannot use the mill rates in two or more cities to compare levels of taxation in dollars unless you use something like an average house price in each community.

Just one of many sites on the net that explain mill rates in case mine did not quite hit home.

http://www.habershamga.com/com_millage.cfm

I have a friend that lives in Airdree Alberta a suburb city of Calgary of about 50,000 people. His house is the same size and roughly quality as mine and very similar valuations. I pay $2600 a year in municipal taxes and he pays $1600 (when we talked on the phone this weekend). His mom just moved to Calgary and she was shocked at how much less she was paying in city taxes for a similar house as she had here in PG. Apparently it was half what she was paying in PG.

Mill rate or not if he is paying $1600 and I'm paying $2600 for the same quality and valuation of a house, then our taxes are substantially more in PG then they pay over there.

The way I see it is the city in PG uses the municipal property taxes as an unlimited slush fund to pay for all sorts of things they shouldn't be allowed to spend the money on. Its a forced tax on your property and as such it should go towards things directly related to your property like roads, water, sewer ect ect... as it stands now we have taxation on properties that goes to a general use with no relation to the properties that were taxed... and that is what burns me more than even the amount I'm paying.

We need to have spending directly tied to taxation. If we don't have a tax that is dedicated to a form of spending, then we shouldn't be spending. We can not continue to rob from the infrastructure funding to pay for extra's like the winter games, and then cover with a surplus tax increase to the infrastructure utility bill added on top of the property taxes.

Gus your full of it. The mill rate is set by city hall to cover the annual budget. It, is the same for every home in the city.Pure and simple. Your in a rut and you cant seem to grt out of it.
Cheers

And Pal I have to agree with you. We have to clean city hall to make some progress in debt reduction.
Cheers

Eagleone. I have tried to explain why that is. The same value house here and there pay different taxes for several reasons.

You house here is much closer to the average house price than his is in Airdrie. I cannot find the assessment info of Airdrie, however, the average sale price in Airdrie is in the $380,000 range rather than just over $250,000 here. So, to get a fair comparison of how much taxes the average person pays, one has to look at the average property value. One cannot compare $250,000 against $250,000. One must compare $250,000 against $380,000 and actually use average assessed value rather than values based on sales.

Assessed values in some PG subdivisions.
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/15068/2/home+values++down++in++prince+george?id=&st=1605

Here is the average assessment in Airdrie
http://www.airdrie.ca/assessment/residential_assessment_tax_comparisons.cfm

Thus, the average residential assessment is $364,500, considerably higher than here, and the total tax paid for that average house is $1,948.

Now, we have to remember that Airdrie is a VERY fast growing suburb of Calgary. It has few amenities. Sort of like living in a College Heights kind of community without the box stores (Airdrie has none other than Walmart) but at a distance of Hixon away from the City. No Hospital, no College .... a swimming pool, a city hall and some parks.

It has a population of 40,000, not 50,000. It has an area of 33 square km and is thus over 5 times as dense as PG. It is not sprawled all over the place. One look at a map will show you how nice and compact it is.

It is fast growing. Other than a small farm village it virtually did not exist prior to 1970/80. There is nothing to maintain yet to speak of. It has a small police force (RCMP) of some 30 people, and a small fire department. It has about the same number of civic employees per 10,000 population as PG has.

It is living off development cost charges as it builds up the so called city which can best be described at this time as "there is no there there when you get there".

Suburbia at either its fines or at its ugliest.

It is now looking to expand its area to accommodate growth. It is no Surrey. It is no New Westminster. It is no Penticton. It is not even a Chilliwack, nor a Richmond.

It is a City in name only.

"The mill rate is set by city hall to cover the annual budget. It, is the same for every home in the city"

Yes. I did not say otherwise. HOWEVER, it is different in each city.

Let us simply compare Kamloops to PG as to who pays the most taxes. NOT who has the higher mill rate. That is a totally useless piece of information by itself as I keep writing.

Kamloops has a nice little web page on that (anything is better than PG's web site)

http://www.venturekamloops.com/pages/kamloops/housetax.htm

Here is PG's
http://www.city.pg.bc.ca/city_services/taxes/rates/tax_rates2010.pdf

So, residential mill rate in PG is 12.20074. In Kamloops it is 7.9083.

Many people look at that and say, oh, with my $235,000 house in PG, I have to pay $2,867 in property taxes. And that is true.

The they go on to say that if they had a $235,000 in Kamloops they would be paying only $1,858. And that would be true too.

What they forget is that the $235,000 will buy more house in PG than in Kamloops since the assessed value of properties in Kamloops is generally higher. In fact, using the MLS sales figures shown on the Kamloops site (I wish they would use the average assessment figures instead), Kamloops residential units are values more than 60% higher than PG.

So, you go down to Kamloops, get some more money to buy closer to the average house that you got in PG and you fork out $383,000 according to the Kamloops site.

Now, apply the mill rate of 7.09083 to that price and you get $3,029 for tax of a comparative average house in PG and Kamloops.

Thus, based on the figures given on the Kamloops site, you would have to pay 5.9% more property tax in Kamloops than you did in PG.

Happy house hunting in Kamloops. :-)

Retired. You will also notice that the residential rate in PG is not the same across the board. Supportive housing pays less than other residential properties.

9.00434 versus 12.20074

But that is another story.

Also, business pays considerably more in Kamloops than in Prince George. If business mill rates were increased in PG, the residential mill rates could come down a bit and we would be paying even less tax than Kamloops.

Airdrie .....

Assesd value of average house is $364,500, just under Kamloops at $383,000.

Mill rate there is 5.34407

Tax on that house is $1,948, 1,080 less than Kamloops ..... all because Airdrie is more compact and has fewer services because they leech off Calgary for those.

gus, how dare you bring common sense and factual information into the discussion. Don't you know it's easier to just say "the rate is cheaper" so that's the better place? It's akin to people saying that income tax rates are lower in the US so that's the better place to live. Of course, they don't mention that health care could cost them upwards of 8-10K per year, that they pay capital gain tax on their house when they sell it and that some cities even have income tax to go along with the state and federal tax.

Most people with some level of common sense don't just look at just one line item like property taxes when evaluating what's a fair "value", they look at the overall cost of living picture. The simple fact of the matter is that most people would need to shell out considerably more money to purchase an EQUIVALENT home in a Kamloops, Kelowna, than what they have in PG. Like I said in an earlier post, many people living in PG wouldn't even qualify for a mortgage if they were looking at a similar home somewhere else.

People need to get a grip and realize that for the overall cost of living considerations, PG is still CHEAP as compared to many places in Canada, even when you factor in the utility and property tax increases. Our standard of living is very good, we have great municipal facilities and contrary to popular belief, our roads aren't the worst in Canada. I'm starting to wonder if some of the people on this site have actually ever left PG and/or seriously looked at what it would cost them to move elsewhere and acquire an equivalent home to what they have here.

Nero fiddles while Rome burns

So... City staff have been directed to get costs on water meters??

Are these guys sniffing glue??

Count me in with those who are very unhappy with Council's direction on raising water & sewer rates. While I do understand the need for services to self-fund, where where these guys on this topic while they were happily spending surpluses and misdirecting funds to their pet projects??

Was going to detail all of the waste & mispending, but there is really no need. Many others have already done so.

Couple of things that really pick me though...

We have a number of folks here that are trying to play it both ways (in other words being two-faced). They wax on about wanting to protect those on fixed incomes, yet do not have the courage to eliminate the old boondoggles that exist, and cannot resist saying yes to new projects and new spending. Hello!! You cannot have it both ways!!

In the end, council is supposed to watching the hen house, so IT IS THEIR FAULT THIS ISSUE IS HAPPENING (the oldtimers on council are especially responsible).

Bottom line is taxpayers really need to dummy-up. Most politicians will tell you what you want to hear election time. Like a bunch of morons, the majority smile & nods without any realization that they are being led down the road to ruin. Most of these guys were speaking of all sorts of new things that they wanted to do (that did not involve just maintaining our basic infrastructure). And... WE ELECTED THEM ANYWAY!! We are a bunch of suckers.

This is only the start. They will steal another $75 from my wallet for this one, but still need to come back for more because the roads are still crumbling to dust. And, they will be back again and again for more -- all the while pissing our money into the wind on senseless fluff that will likely not make any difference to our long-term future.

Have to go. Need to bang my head on the wall...

Some good links for comparison. Thanks Gus.

One point about the Airdrie comparison. Five years ago a house cost the same in Airdrie as in PG. The facts are that they do pay substantially less in property taxes, but they also saw a more than doubling of the value of their homes in the same time frame.

If one goes to Airdrie they will see virtually the whole town is like one big bicycle trail park with water fountains, and fake lakes, and well maintained parks on almost every corner and connecting every neighborhood in the entire city.

The city planners in Airdrie focused on getting value for the tax dollar. They spent money on parks that everyone can and will enjoy using for free, and deferred away from spending money on capital projects with huge ongoing operating costs. Because the place is very well landscaped and beautiful and the taxes are very low... everyone from PG moves there and helps to subsidize their growth and all boats rise as a result. Go out to a pub there and you will think you are back in PG as it seems most of that growth over the last 20-years was the people PG bleed away to Alberta as our city fell into terminal decline with rising debt and self serving politicians.

I bucked the trend ten years ago and stayed, and at this point it was the wrong decision. I had hope for PG, but with the rising debt that will need to be taxed to our properties I'm not so sure PG is a good long term investment anymore. I think we have one more election to turn thing around, otherwise I think PG will become the Detroit of Canada and the water meters are a sign of the coming privatizations as the city can no longer provide the basic services... as all its property taxes will be needed to service the debt death spiral we will be in. If interest rates go up 2% this city is bankrupt as it is now in my opinion.