Mick should have been "hands on" this year instead of taking a look next year.

"there might have been a little less sand in the asphalt mix and maybe a little more rock."

I wonder if the city does any QA/QC on the asphalt mixes to make sure we are getting what we are paying for?

Yup.. QA/QC done by a low bidder ..

the new hart hwy is pathetic!!!
as soon as it rains there are huge puddels
and nice new ruts for hydroplaneing.

hydroplaneing is dangerous....but i guess that is how they build roads here

These patches seem to be common practice. The same thing happened last fall on the Sunny Slope passing lane at Cluculz Lake, where the new passing lane was created and paved last year. Within a few weeks of the paving being completed it looked all patched up, similar to the new road at UNBC.

The question ism why did they pave that road in the first place? We have roads in much worse condition then Tyner Blvd. But I guess quality control is not something that Mr Jones would understand.
Cheers

Did they pave Tyner? I must of missed it. I thought they paved University Way which did really need it.

What about that "washboard" in front of Wendy's on Central? Or the bottom of Cowart Road? The non-road at the top of Ospika in the next ten year plan? Again, this bunch at city hall are a joke.

As far as I know they didn't pave Tyner but they did pave Univeristy way which needed it terribly.

An interesting patchwork pattern.

What are likely the more porous and less dense sections appear quite regularly spaced in the lower photo. Different batching sources?

In either case, we'll get to see whether adding more binder actually helped. I expect to see premature rutting as well as cracking, although there are not too many heavy vehicles driving along that road.

"The non-road at the top of Ospika"

For the time being, that is open only to four wheel drive vehicles with high clearance. :-)

I noticed that there was no posted speed limit on that section.

I hope the non road gets paved next year.

What about emptying the oil sands ponds and re-pave every road in both provinces?

warranty maybe??? or just a substandard job
and we have to live with it.

The only way to properly correct this is to repave the whole thing.

Caught between a rock and a hard place. One year warranty.

If this does not correct it, it might actually last 2 or 3 years before it starts deteriorating more quickly and we will be stuck again for 4 or 5 years of driving on rough pavement.

If the City demands a complete re-pavement, it will likely be seen in quote increases in future pavement jobs. The again, we might actually get better pavement jobs that will last longer.

No, we should not have to live with substandard jobs. The bid was not for a substandard job. However, if contractors have been getting away with substandard jobs, then that is how they expect to continue to be treated. BUT, maybe we are seeing a change?

Betcha when the Romans built their roads it wasn't this "lowest bidder" crap.

"The only way to properly correct this is to repave the whole thing."
This is completely not true. The common way to fix segregated asphalt is to do exactly what was done. If after a period of time, < a year, it's found to be wearing, it will (or should) be done again. This can be and probably will be done 2 to 4 times. (which I supect is should be part of the warantee) This will completely fix the surface.
What Jones says is true, any number or combination of things in the mixing, loading and laying process can cause this. What this article doesn't say is that segregration is a common problem with hot mix asphalt (and crush base when it's over worked) no matter what contractor is doing the paving. IT HAPPENS TO ALL OF THEM. It is usually hard to see these areas before the asphalt is compacted but if they are caught, they can sometimes be fixed manually before the rollers going over the area. The only difference here is that the treatment is fairly new to the area and most of us haven't seen it before. I was working for a paving contractor (not the same one) when the exact same thing was happening. Again...It is common, take a walk down any paved street and look closely. You'll find many of these spots.

"I expect to see premature rutting as well as cracking, although there are not too many heavy vehicles driving along that road."

Rutting & cracking? No. Going unchecked this problem will cause premature "ravelling". Which is the surface aggregate breaking out do to water getting into the open pockets. You can see this on older roads too.

Retired, Jimmi, Walter - Can you do a better job?

This just goes to show that leaving out a few little details from a story can have a undeserving negative affect on any contractor.

By the way Gus, I think you'll find that each patch in the lower phot would correspond with each truckload starting to dump into the paver. Could have been something to do with the loading hopper at the plant. I can guarantee you that the contractor spending long hours trouble shooting to solve the problem. ( They do take alot of pride in there work)
And no I dont work for this paving company.

Should have proof read for typos sorry

Harbinger, If the contract was awarded to a paver that submitted a higher bid, you'd be one of the first ones on here bitching about that too.

Harbinger, If the contract was awarded to a paver that submitted a higher bid, you'd be one of the first ones on here bitching about that too.

http://www.asphaltinstitute.org/public/engineering/PDFs/Pavement_Performance/Eliminate_12_Segregation_Snarls.pdf

This is part of the Appian Way leading from Rome to the south of Italy. It was started about 2,300 years ago, with the newest sections about 1,900 years old.

We are lucky, we get to see the wear and tear on many roads surfaces during our lifetime and get lots to complain about.

Just imagine not being able to complain about the condition of roads. Life would just not be the same...... :-)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3613/3650087396_945c10c2fb_b.jpg

"This is completely not true."

LOL .... and then you go on to describe repeating the procedure just done year after year. That is not FIXING the problem!!!! That is taking remedial action to prevent water from entering as much as possible.

In non freeze-thaw environments a porous surface would not be a major concern. In fact, that is the type of mix that might be specified in the 8% or so air content range rather than on the lower 4% end of the spectrum.

The surface is supposed to be relatively smooth to allow water runoff. Also, with more air, the structural strength is diminished. Thus if there is heavy traffic or traffic with lots of studded tires, the surface will become rutted much more quickly. As well, at intersections where people will speed up and slow down, the pavement might actually develop a washboard surface. Localized depressions may also occur which will pond water and break down into those famous PG potholes.

Your solution is totally unacceptable to any quality control person who is there to make sure that they get the quality they specified.

If I was responsible for that job and a quality inspector told me he/she accepted that job, they would be taken off any further inspection duties.

Very simple and quick way to get better pavement jobs done in this City. As I said, would likely up future bids by 5 to 10%, but we would have better roads as a result.

Those future band aid fixes will likely be at a cost to the City not at a cost to the contractor.

"What Jones says is true, any number or combination of things in the mixing, loading and laying process can cause this"

Well, we all know that. Luckily though, it is not up to Jones to figure out. It is also not up to Jones to make excuses for the Contractor.

If the City wrote a prescriptive specification and the result is what we got, then it is his fault.

If, however, the City wrote a performance specification, then Jones does not have to figure that out. It becomes the contractor's problem to figure out and make the work "good" in a fashion acceptable to the City.

The best way to make sure both parties understand what the "performance" should look like they should do a sample strip of pavement at the start of the project and both agree that is the measure by which the rest of the project will be judged. That includes surface appearance, slopes, dips, density, core thicknesses, etc.

Simple!

http://www.asphaltwa.com/wapa_web/modules/11_guidance/11_surface_distress.htm

"Going unchecked this problem will cause premature "ravelling". "

Hmmmm .... the "ravelling" is so premature here that it happened right on the job! No traffic needed.

As it says in the above link:

"fine particles are missing from the aggregate matrix, then the asphalt binder is only able to bind the remaining coarse particles at their relatively few contact points."

That is what we likely have (I have not seen it, just going by the description on here). The aggregates have been segregated from the fines. You can put as much asphalt binder into the mix, it will not help as is so nicely described in the above. Too few contact points to bind the aggregates properly. This remedial work does not help.

Notice when you go through the linked site, there are no remedial actions that approach any of the types of work that was carried out in this case.

Also, I did not notice that any of the structural failures in the surface that was overlain was repaired before the overlay was applied. I predict we will continue to have an early breakdown in those same locations since they are in the tire traffic locations.

Cosmetic surgery...... band aid solutions. The same philosophy as is used in pothole patching in PG.

Again, segreted spots are nothing new. This method Gus, as I said, is a fix that works. It is a procedure that may have to be repeated 2 to 4 times depending on the severity of this segregation. After these initial applications it does not need to be repeated "for years to come". (Pardon me if this was not clear.) It does leave the surface with an as good, or better seal than the other areas that did not require the treatment. That being said, yes there is a point at which the severity is cause for removal. I believe this actually did happen near the University's entrance. A section was milled out after the fact and then repaved. ( I don't know 100% that this was the cause). Maybe it was the QC guy that made the decision.
It's not just the City that is accepting this as a fix. It has been written into contracts and specs with the MOTI and many other road authorities as well.

"Those future band aid fixes will likely be at a cost to the City not at a cost to the contractor". - Given the choice of applying seal material two or three times, or redoing the entire stretch before warrantee period is up, my guess is the contractor would agree to cover the cost of the seal. And since most contractors like to repeatedly land these larger contracts, I'm sure they'd be willing to follow through. (Lowest bid does not always get the work)

"In non freeze-thaw environments a porous surface would not be a major concern."
I suggest you read up a bit more on that one too. ANY water in a void on the surface regardless of temperature will cause damage when a tire rolls over it. It's called hydraulicing. During compaction, they use combination, neumatic, and double steel rollers to not only compact the mat but to seal it to reduce this common problem as much as possible.
Air voids in mix designs around our area are specified as 3 - 5 %.

You are completely amazing though. Sitting in your chair in front of your computer and seeing only a portion of the entire picture, you can out judge, out perform, make better calls and know how to handle a contract better than those that have spent most of their working life in the paving industry.

Thank you for sharing yet another edition of the "Encyclopedia Gus".

Nice photo. I wonder how many heavy trucks that road has seen in its day. Freeze/thaw cycles? VPD? Snow plows?
For the right application though, paving stones do have great advantages.

If paving stones can hold up for 2 thousand years let's try them. How many meters not kilometers can we do for 3.5mil.

Fact is we live in the mid north where we recieve multiple freeze thaws a year. The roads take a beating. There is no asphalt application that will hold up to our extreme weather conditions. +30 summer -30 winter. I am just happy we have roads to drive. Have a look at Russian roads where the same climate takes place. Gus i am sure you can dig up one of those photos. Look forward to that link.

dudeinpg.... If the higher bidder was decided on, do you suppose I would notice my taxes going up? What's the diff? They even go up with the lowest bidder. Sure would like better than that. But do we deserve better?

"know how to handle a contract better than those that have spent most of their working life in the paving industry"

And I have spent 30+ years in the building design and construction industry that goes beyond just paving, but does include paving. Much of the latter 20 years dealt with quality control inspections and certifying payments to contractors. I dealt with all generals as well as subs when the need arose. In my later years I taught, especially courses surrounding project management and contract administration as well as courses around construction materials including concrete and asphalt which have some similar concerns surrounding proper mixes as well as segregation during loading, delivery as well as placement, and similar material properties surrounding binding agents, air entrainement (for slightly different purposes), density, etc.

So, now that we have "marked our territories", I will go on, if I may.

I have indicated in my writing that I have not seen the site, although I do drive it almost daily. I merely go by the description provided.

So, as one who is on the specification end of things normally, and one who has to do his due diligence to protect my clients who are the owners, not the contractors, as well as protecting myself against professional liability insurance claims, I am used to doing my research to make sure I go by best practices rather than common practices whenever I can. If the latter is the only option available, I go by the words of someone I trust. Even then, my level of risk goes up substantially.

http://pms.nevadadot.com/2002presentations/42.pdf

In the above linked paper dealing with a specific approach to detecting aggregate segregation in HMA paving, you will notice that there are recommended treatments for pavement areas found to be substandard.

They are 1. patching, 2. removal and replacement.

On page 15, table 6, they recommend remedial action based on size of segregated areas found.

You will also notice that with a high level of segregation found in an area larger than 0.2m the remediation is removal and replacement.

On the other end of the scale, if a segregated area is larger than 1.6m and the segregation is light, removal and replacement is also recommended.

As it says, that is an example and it is up to the agency (City) policy.

I do not know what is under those patches. They are relatively large, so I am assuming that there are several discrete areas of segregation that are covered up. If they were just small discrete patches and light segregation then I suspect they would have left them alone. So, I do not think that we are observing a minor deficiency.

Finally, I have to look at what we have been facing in this City over the last decade or so. Essentially we are seeing the results of early pavement deterioration in far too many places in my opinion as well as that of the general public. It is not only my observation. People are too quick to provide excuses - we have a new one in the article. Normally it is simply we live in a winter climate. Hey, we're in Canada!!

So, we have some sort of combination of some poor paving contractors and some poor quality control inspectors. That is what the indicators point to from my experience.

Another report on aggregate as well as temperature segregation
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_441.pdf

Again, replacement is not exactly out of the question. Adding asphalt oil does nothing to get rid of the density and strength loss of the new layer.

"Fact is we live in the mid north where we recieve multiple freeze thaws a year"

Yes, I am sorry but the REAL major thing we have going against us here is that we live too close to lotusland.

The fact is, those conditions prevail through ALL of Canada other than parts of the lower mainland and the southern part of the Island.

In addition to the rest of Canada, where many of us actually come from because we are the only ones who can tolerate or love this climate, there is much of the northern USA plus Alaska that has similar conditions. In fact, total area of highway and city street surface in the USA under freeze thaw cycle conditions is likely at least as large as that of Canada, and probably even greater.

We have lots of communities who share our problems, ans many who do not because they know how to do it.

In fact, I think we probably do know how to do it, we just want to get away with less $. In the process, we are likely spending more $. We are certainly giving many in the community legitimate cause to complain.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/canadian-potholes.htm

:-)

Your link is to a report from Nevada? From 8 years ago? Things change.

Here's one thats a little closer to home and up-to-date with today's methods.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/Publications/const_maint/contract_serv/standard_specs/2009_Stand_Specs_Vol_1.pdf. Section 502 (Page 21 of 30)

I wasn't marking any territory Gus, I was simply stating that your comment "The only way to properly correct this is to repave the whole thing." is not true. And that this is not that uncommon. You admitted yourself that you had not seen the areas in any detail. One would think that with 30+ years of experience in the field you would avoid such a knee jerk reaction to a little half story by posting these negative comments, until you aquired more detail.
I'm wondering now, if I was one of your students.

Cheers

http://www.diysupermarket.com/blog/uploaded_images/mega-pothole-753967.jpg

dudeinpg. So now that you are stating that I do not know enough about this to make any comment, exactly how much do you know about this? Are you the contractor or on the workforce of the contractor. Or do you work for the city and approved the job?

Dude .... the material principles are the same whether one is in Italy, Prince George, Nevada or Lower Slabovia.

The design mix of aggregate, fines and asphalt binder have to be properly mixed and placed and compacted to a proper density and a given uniform temperature. If that does not happen, then the structural strength of the mix is not achieved no matter where you are.

One cannot determine from a surface inspection how deep down the imperfection actually is. One has to take a core sample in order to determine that. One might take an initial density reading as well before a destructive sample is taken.

If the sample shows that it goes deeper than the top layer of coarse aggregate, there is no slurry application (I am now using the method described in the standard you provided which is different than the method described in the article above which does not speak about a slurry but simply about asphalt oil "painted" in) in the world that will be able to penetrate deep enough to properly bind the larger aggregate lower down in the applied layer.

Table 502-I-1 is very similar to the study I posted which is likely one of the precursors to the BC standard which is shown to be a revised section.

Please take special note of these words in the standard:

"Due to the nature of variation in asphalt mixes and their compactive characteristics, the definition of degrees of segregation will be established on a project by project basis. The Contractor and the Ministry Representative shall establish through the use of photographs or other mutually agreed tools, the definition of slight, moderate and severe segregation."

You will note that I wrote about setting a standard by agreeing on a section of pavement from the initial placement that would serve as the standard.

The photograph method is okay for a visual and a purely surface inspection. But, you will note that it does not go far enough. It has to be coupled with density tests as well as temperature tests.

In the worst case, the remedy is to remove and replace.

In the moderate situation it is mill and fill.

The important part about the slight segregation is that a matrix of coarse and fine aggregate is actually present along with the asphalt binder. The only problem in that situation is the presence of a larger amount of the larger aggregate. Implied there is that there is enough binder and fine aggregate to properly bind the coarser aggregate. The in place mix is should demonstrate the proper density so that there is no loss in strength. The sand slurry is added to fill the small surface pockets that might be found in that situation. That will, of course not last very long with traffic, temperature changes and snow plowing, studded tires, etc.

I find the standard you cite fits very well with what I have written and with the references I cited.

The main thing to remember is that one has to go back to a basic understanding of how the material acts to produce a surface capable of supporting the traffic load and other conditions through its life cycle. Then relate that to the inspection process and the limitation that a surface visual inspection presents to the inspector.

If our dudes at City Hall are happy with a visual inspection ...... well, we can see the results. ;-)

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=afac4198-7a2c-4dbd-84c2-e40b0ffa314b&k=43425

They must have the same problem in Edmonton with plastic water pipe connections that we seem to have ..... :-)

BTW Dude ... just because the study I cited was on a Nevada DOT web site, does not mean that the study was done in Nevada.

This is the engineering firm that is responsible for the scientific study:
http://www.abatech.com

The title page of the report shows that the authors are from Pensylvania(2), New Jersey(3), and one from the UK. So five are from states that have winter conditions, not that that matters in this situation. aggregate segregation is aggregate segregation.

In the abstract of the report is says very specifically that the study was conducted for the New Jersey DOT.

It is amazing what one finds out when one actually reads things. :-)

The abstract states the following:

"New segregation detecting and monitoring software, “NJTxtr” was developed by combining the use of the ARAN-collected pavement-texture data and the above methodologies to determine whether a pavement section is acceptable or unacceptable based on the level of segregation present. If a pavement section is acceptable, the software determines the pay adjustment factor to be used; if segregation is present, it suggests remedial actions for the segregated areas."

That system uses a leaser texture measuring device ...... How quaint.

What ... no pictures? ....

"leasers" are "lasers" that are leased ... just in case someone is wondering .... :-)

Dude ...

From your first post, the lead statements were:

"The only way to properly correct this is to repave the whole thing." This is completely not true.

The operative word is "proper". In my opinion, and that of others in the case of moderate/median an worse segregation, including the BC Standard is to redo the laid down layer by milling or replacing and overlay.

You then went on to write: "The common way to fix segregated asphalt is to do exactly what was done".

Based on the BC standard, that is only the way if the segregation is by some of the larger aggregates dominating the visible surface layer, but the binder and the fines must be visibly present.

So, it is the "standard" or common way in one of three cases of level of segregation.

I think Dude and Gus should work for the City and do the inspections for this work. I think the contractor would enjoy the on-site banter. Mind you there will probably be a lot of asphalt ripped up. ;)
Cheers,

OK Gus , I give.. :)

Mr. Mick Jones states the following: It's one of those things that you don't see at time of (asphalt) placement, but we do a follow-up walk once the road is completed and we can identify any areas that might be deficient."

I can't help but wonder if this is his own views or if there was indeed a problem that would have arisen with the paving. Is this a man who actually knows what he is doing or is it a man who is trying to get a promotion.

Mr. Mick Jones states the following: "With our aggressive sanding materials, it's more likely to do some potential damage to the road, so we like to see how they 'wintered' and make sure they're not showing early signs of failure."

How about this...why don't we let the contractors who are the professionals come up with the asphalt recipe for our roads instead of the manual that the City is using. Maybe Mr. Jones should contact other municipalities to find out what kind of recipes they are using for their roads. Its not just our region with this climate, but for some reason we have more potholes than anywhere else.

I dont' actually think its the contractors that are the problem. I think it is the City. I think its time for the City to talk to the professionals and find a new recipe that would work. I'm sure the professionals have studies on their recipes to build roads.